JCE's Car Hunt Thread 2.0

[JCE]

That's no fun, you didn't even try to post a rebuttal!

===========================

Mmmmm, '05 G35 coupe...

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm scared to even think about Jags, but I would consider one if the reliability was there. Still, I'd rather have the A8 L--its my #1 right now followed by the G35 coupe.

I don't know if it's just in the UK but for the past five or more year Jaaaaaags have actually done quite well in customer satisfaction and reliability surveys. Apart from the X-Type, and even then that was no worse than "average". The S-Type and XJs seem to do very well. I guess you'd probably have to do a bit of internet research though to see if US owners agree with UK ones.

I must say though, I do approve of your inclusion of the S-Class and A8, but don't be under any illusion that they'll be cheap to run and certainly not cheap to repair. They were two of the most technologically advanced cars available when new so you'd need to make damn sure that they were in absolutely perfect condition before you parted with your money. I personally wouldn't like the risk of innumerable electrical gizmos on the Merc deciding they'd lived their useful life. And as mentioned earlier, aluminium body on the Audi = not cheap to fix.

 

[YSSMAN]

If we're going to count Jaguars, I think the only modern Jag worth considering is the XJ. The significant updates the car received late in its life have been enough to make it a legitimate German competitor, albeit, with the typical English Cottage interior that I love. I'd skip the Supercharged versions and go for a fairly basic V8 model. Not like you have much of a choice, the lack of the V6 and diesel options is still a crime against humanity here in the New World.

In reference to the list in general, using the word "reliability" and "affordable" while including brands such as Audi (Volkswagen) and Mercedes is a bit backward. Granted, as I always say in reference to German cars, if you have the money, they're worth it. But you'll probably regret it at some point. My dislike of Audi, despite my love for VW, prevents me from seriously recommending any of those cars in a serious way. I'm just not sold on them. Especially when you're in Texas and receive no benefit with the AWD.

Sitting in the world of $15-20K vehicles, you're left with a lot of choices from a lot of different places that offer up radically different driving experiences. Without having a narrowed set of requirements, you're going to be left with a list of vehicles that vary so widely that you'll never be able to make an easy decision. Furthermore, I think opting out of four cylinder engines really leaves a lot of wonderful cars out of the list. New and used, frankly.

If we want to talk realistic vehicles for your price range, I'd lower expectations just a little bit. I like the 5-series idea, its easily attainable, and your money won't evaporate too quickly with the right vehicle. Spring for a BMW 530i, and I think you would be a happy camper. However, I would be more apt to going a little smaller for the 330i. But, that's more about size than anything.

 

[JCE]

I don't know if it's just in the UK but for the past five or more year Jaaaaaags have actually done quite well in customer satisfaction and reliability surveys. Apart from the X-Type, and even then that was no worse than "average". The S-Type and XJs seem to do very well. I guess you'd probably have to do a bit of internet research though to see if US owners agree with UK ones.

I must say though, I do approve of your inclusion of the S-Class and A8, but don't be under any illusion that they'll be cheap to run and certainly not cheap to repair. They were two of the most technologically advanced cars available when new so you'd need to make damn sure that they were in absolutely perfect condition before you parted with your money. I personally wouldn't like the risk of innumerable electrical gizmos on the Merc deciding they'd lived their useful life. And as mentioned earlier, aluminium body on the Audi = not cheap to fix.

The S-Type I really like, and I am serious I REALLY like it. The XJ is well, an XJ--which is to say it is a superb machine. My worries are with the similar issue that plagues some late 90's early 00's Mercs--electrical issues. But I'm not apposed to a good low mileage XJ or an S-Type 4.2. But, I prefer the Germans.

If we're going to count Jaguars, I think the only modern Jag worth considering is the XJ. The significant updates the car received late in its life have been enough to make it a legitimate German competitor, albeit, with the typical English Cottage interior that I love. I'd skip the Supercharged versions and go for a fairly basic V8 model. Not like you have much of a choice, the lack of the V6 and diesel options is still a crime against humanity here in the New World.

If I get an executive saloon it will have either a turbo/supercharged 6cyl or 8cyl. The only possible exception is a 5-series with a 6spd manual and an I6.

In reference to the list in general, using the word "reliability" and "affordable" while including brands such as Audi (Volkswagen) and Mercedes is a bit backward. Granted, as I always say in reference to German cars, if you have the money, they're worth it. But you'll probably regret it at some point. My dislike of Audi, despite my love for VW, prevents me from seriously recommending any of those cars in a serious way. I'm just not sold on them. Especially when you're in Texas and receive no benefit with the AWD.

Well let me explain a bit on what I'm on about. Reliability, the lack of money I need to spend other than oil changes/tires in the first year or three. I don't want to have to shell out $250 here and $500 there for things like suspension, window regulators/motors, interior trim and etc. Affordable, what fits in or is below my $350/mo maximum monthly payment bracket. As I see it the S-class and A8 have recieved nothing but high praises from its owners and critics about being reliable. Yes eventually the electrics will fail but how far down the road? 150k miles? 200k miles? I doubt at 130k miles the A8's electrical system is going to start to fail.

Sitting in the world of $15-20K vehicles, you're left with a lot of choices from a lot of different places that offer up radically different driving experiences. Without having a narrowed set of requirements, you're going to be left with a list of vehicles that vary so widely that you'll never be able to make an easy decision. Furthermore, I think opting out of four cylinder engines really leaves a lot of wonderful cars out of the list. New and used, frankly.

But that's the fun part. I put up almost everything that I could think of that wouldn't be craptastic and something I wouldn't mind seeing parked in my drive. As far as I see it there are two catagories, sport and luxury. The Infiniti, "S" Audi's and BMW can do both as far as I'm concerned.

The G35 coupe so far has the most to offer from more places. It literally does everything I want except be a large executive German saloon car.

And for reference I do not want a G35 saloon. I like them but prefer the German alternatives and its own coupe sister.

If we want to talk realistic vehicles for your price range, I'd lower expectations just a little bit. I like the 5-series idea, its easily attainable, and your money won't evaporate too quickly with the right vehicle. Spring for a BMW 530i, and I think you would be a happy camper. However, I would be more apt to going a little smaller for the 330i. But, that's more about size than anything.

1. Do not want a regular 3-series.
2. I like large saloon cars.
3. The 530i can be had in a 6spd manual that I can find in the US right?

 

[///M-Spec]

^ Yes, but they are very rare and not much cheaper than a 540i/6. (Older cars had 5MT)

If you are looking at E46 M3, be sure you have versed yourself on the ins and outs of periodic valve adjustments on the S54B32 motors. This is not a DIY. It is expensive and required maintenance. The E46 is getting to the age where the second/third owners who can barely afford them to begin with are neglecting the job.

-Also, consider a 330i ZHP/Performance Package. It is sufficiently close enough to an M car that you should look carefully at one if you don't want a "regular" 3er.


M

 

[Tornado]

If you are looking at the LS and the S-Type, I'd assume it would be a matter of which way you want to compromise.

 

[McLaren]

-Also, consider a 330i ZHP/Performance Package. It is sufficiently close enough to an M car that you should look carefully at one if you don't want a "regular" 3er.
M

Troof.

 

[homeforsummer]

If you are looking at the LS and the S-Type, I'd assume it would be a matter of which way you want to compromise.

Depends how old the S was. Around about the time they released the S-Type R the whole range had a facelift, interior lift and new engines. These ones are supposed to be excellent cars (Autocar reckoned the facelifted version was a better car than the 5-Series at the time - the 5-Series being a car that rarely ever gets beaten in road tests by anything). A little later on they facelifted them again which is when the different rear lights came in (i.e. went from the lights in the first image below to the ones in the second).

I personally prefer the look of the earlier cars, but the later ones are better cars.

The interior change, for reference, went from the Lincoln LS-alike dash in the first image to the one in the second image which was very similar to that found in the XJ and X-Type.

The US market being the US market, I expect the only ones you got were V8s all with automatic boxes, and presumably the S-Type R too. Here in the UK we got some V6s too, and the brilliant 2.7 V6 diesel that you'll remember Clarkson taking around the 'Ring in ten minutes.

 

[Tornado]

They did a similar refreshening with the LS as well at about the same time, but I was talking more about more subtle things. For example, the normal S-Type got a bigger engine and another gear in the tranny in 2003, but it was still hooked to a J-Gate and the Lincoln's wasn't; so that could be a draw to him.
Of course, JCE might even be able to swing an S-Type R if he is lucky, so who cares about the base cars, you know?

 

[homeforsummer]

How did the LS's 'box differ? I've heard nothing but good things about the Jaaaaags' J-gates. They aren't exactly the height of technology any more but at the time the 'boxes they fitted to Jaaaaaags were some of the best around.

 

[Tornado]

Americans seem to hate J-Gates, it seems. I've never driven a Jag, so I don't really know why.
But anyways: Originally the two cars shared an identical transmission, and except for the layout which was a J-Gate on the Jag and a normal one on the Lincoln. Then the Jag got a new 6-speed, and the Lincoln, because Ford seemingly always hated it, got nothing (even though they designed a version of the Lincoln tranny that was shiftable for the other car on the platform, they never put it in the Lincoln).

 

[a6m5]

I know with any of these German or Japanese luxury cars is going to cost alot of money to get a second key/keyfob. And that they would cost a bit much on the emissions equipment--but keep in mind so do alot of the Japanese cars. Especially Nissan.

I wouldn't say especially, that one is common amongst many manufacturers, if not all. Let's just say that if Bimmers shared similar electrical problems as Nissan cars, there is a good chance I'd be driving an older 3-Series right now.

 

[ND4SPD]

Americans seem to hate J-Gates, it seems. I've never driven a Jag, so I don't really know why.
But anyways: Originally the two cars shared an identical transmission, and except for the layout which was a J-Gate on the Jag and a normal one on the Lincoln. Then the Jag got a new 6-speed, and the Lincoln, because Ford seemingly always hated it, got nothing (even though they designed a version of the Lincoln tranny that was shiftable for the other car on the platform, they never put it in the Lincoln).

How exactly does a J-Gate work? I've never seen one up close. I'd love to know more about them!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

How exactly does a J-Gate work? I've never seen one up close. I'd love to know more about them!

+1 considering my Jaaaaag has a fairly normal shifter.

 

[Keef]

It's just shaped like a J. I don't know if they did it on purpose or not, but for some reason everyone hates it.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

That's what I thought...

So the hate... I don't get it at all,

 

[YSSMAN]

Affordable, what fits in or is below my $350/mo maximum monthly payment bracket. As I see it the S-class and A8 have recieved nothing but high praises from its owners and critics about being reliable. Yes eventually the electrics will fail but how far down the road? 150k miles? 200k miles? I doubt at 130k miles the A8's electrical system is going to start to fail.

I'd subtract about 100,000 miles from your problem window to become more accurate. Modern Mercedes products rate at or near the bottom of the problem scale frequently, and while Audis often score better than their VW siblings, I still wouldn't bet the farm on it being a problem-free vehicle early on in its life. My general rule of thumb would be that if a vehicle had been "trouble free" for the first 30,000 miles, the problems will come on around 90,000. Probably.

1. Do not want a regular 3-series.
2. I like large saloon cars.
3. The 530i can be had in a 6spd manual that I can find in the US right?

I'd agree with the others and say that a M-Sport version of the 330i would be worth looking at. I totally understand the size requirement though, but, its a 3-series. They're lovely no matter what. As for the 5er, they're around, but you've gotta look. It seems like most I've found have been well south of here. Kentucky, Florida, Texas, California, etc.

 

[Philly]

Problem is finding an older 911 with low miles. Can you give me a few examples of years, trims and specs of the 911's you'd want me to look at? And I want a turbo and or Carrera 4.

I did a quick search on Autotrader and it looks like you'll be shelling out north of $35k for a 964T in decent shape from the 80s. I also found some Carreras for under $20k but prices that low sound sort of questionable for a 20 year old Porsche. So I think that puts those a ways out of your price range.

 

[JCE]

I'll be editing my list here shortly. I'm removing some "maybes" and just sticking with the "definite wants".

The top 5 are as of today are as follows:

1. 2003-2006 Infiniti G35 coupe
2. 1999-2004 Audi A8 L
3. 2005-2007 Mercedes-Benz C-class
4. 2005-2008 Mustang GT
5. 2001-2004 Porsche Boxster

^ Yes, but they are very rare and not much cheaper than a 540i/6. (Older cars had 5MT)

How rare is a 540 with a 6spd manual that's in my year/mileage/price range? If I get a 5-series I'd prefer it a V8 with a stick--but would settle for a I6 with a stick. Don't see much reason to have a German sport saloon with an automatic, unless the 4.4L V8's are that good?

If you are looking at E46 M3, be sure you have versed yourself on the ins and outs of periodic valve adjustments on the S54B32 motors. This is not a DIY. It is expensive and required maintenance. The E46 is getting to the age where the second/third owners who can barely afford them to begin with are neglecting the job.

Point definately taken. I've come to the conclusion that the E46 M3 is not in my realm of possibilities with both price and maintenance. So its coming off my list.

-Also, consider a 330i ZHP/Performance Package. It is sufficiently close enough to an M car that you should look carefully at one if you don't want a "regular" 3er.


M

The M3 is the only 3-series I like. I don't want a regular 3-series. I'd rather get a 5-series.

If you are looking at the LS and the S-Type, I'd assume it would be a matter of which way you want to compromise.

True, the LS while brilliant and one of the best saloon cars in...well...ever, it can be a bit expensive even for 2003 low mileage ones. Infact an S-Type costs the same or a little less in most cases with similar mileage. For the S-Type it would be the unknown for me with the reliability as I do not know how they are. I'd LOVE an S-Type R but fear it may break and I'd be stuck with a nice car that doesn't run.

Of course, JCE might even be able to swing an S-Type R if he is lucky, so who cares about the base cars, you know?

True but the 4.2 V8 is no slouch in the S-Type.

How did the LS's 'box differ? I've heard nothing but good things about the Jaaaaags' J-gates. They aren't exactly the height of technology any more but at the time the 'boxes they fitted to Jaaaaaags were some of the best around.

I love the Jaaaaaaaaaaags TopGear reference.

Americans seem to hate J-Gates, it seems. I've never driven a Jag, so I don't really know why.

I love the Jaaaaaaaaaaaaag's J-gates. Its one of the smoothest shifting automatic knobs I've ever used.

It's just shaped like a J. I don't know if they did it on purpose or not, but for some reason everyone hates it.

I love those.

I'd subtract about 100,000 miles from your problem window to become more accurate. Modern Mercedes products rate at or near the bottom of the problem scale frequently, and while Audis often score better than their VW siblings, I still wouldn't bet the farm on it being a problem-free vehicle early on in its life. My general rule of thumb would be that if a vehicle had been "trouble free" for the first 30,000 miles, the problems will come on around 90,000. Probably.

So 2002-2007 Mercedes reliability is not good? I'm strongly considering a 35k-50k mile 2006-2007 C-class. Is that not a good vehicle?

As for the 5er, they're around, but you've gotta look. It seems like most I've found have been well south of here. Kentucky, Florida, Texas, California, etc.

If they are rare like the S6 is the 6spd manual 5-series just might get removed from my list.

I did a quick search on Autotrader and it looks like you'll be shelling out north of $35k for a 964T in decent shape from the 80s. I also found some Carreras for under $20k but prices that low sound sort of questionable for a 20 year old Porsche. So I think that puts those a ways out of your price range.

Question, what about these:

2004 Porsche Boxster w/62,000 miles
2003 Porsche Boxster S w/69,000 miles
2003 Porsche Boxster w/66,000 miles
2002 Porsche Boxster w/47,000 miles
2002 Porsche Boxster w/39,000 miles
2002 Porsche Boxster w/32,000 miles

Just a few examples of lower mileage Boxsters.

 

[High-Test]

If you want a Mercedes-Benz, you're better off pretending that 1996 never came and that the world still lives in the eighties and early nineties.

A real Mercedes-Benz:

weighs as much as the moon
has no cupholders
has no more than four forward gears
and does not understand any speed below forty miles per hour.

Run like the wind AWAY from the horrid W203. It has no redeeming qualities other than a rear-drive layout and a hood ornament to tell you where the nose of your car is. You're honestly better off with an old J30.

 

[Eric.]

If you want a Mercedes-Benz, you're better off pretending that 1996 never came and that the world still lives in the eighties and early nineties.

A real Mercedes-Benz:

weighs as much as the moon
has no cupholders
has no more than four forward gears
and does not understand any speed below forty miles per hour.

Run like the wind AWAY from the horrid W203. It has no redeeming qualities other than a rear-drive layout and a hood ornament to tell you where the nose of your car is. You're honestly better off with an old J30.

They don't have cupholders? What kind of luxury car is that?

 

[High-Test]

They don't have cupholders? What kind of luxury car is that?

The kind built by middle aged German engineers who live in an isolated aquarium and breathe an atmosphere of equal parts cigarette smoke and air. They just say in there and engineer stuff.

Then one day the salespeople staged a covert ops strike and stole their cigarettes, forcing the engineers to bow to their machinations. Thus ended the golden era at Mercedes-Benz.

 

[JCE]

Run like the wind AWAY from the horrid W203. It has no redeeming qualities other than a rear-drive layout and a hood ornament to tell you where the nose of your car is.

WHY are they "horrid"? They are quite nice, comfy and make a pleasing noise to me. Plus they are a Mercedes and RWD, those are also pleasing to me. I need to know specifics before I dismiss something just on a one word review.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've always liked the look of them.

Quite handsome things, if not as nice as the current C-Class. The issue with these models was, in common with all Mercs at the time, sub-standard build quality. The plastics are a bit nasty even on more expensive versions, they aren't as well screwed-together as the models before or after, and Mercedes' electrical systems were shocking around this time too. Again, models before or after are much better in this respect (less tech to go wrong in the previous model, more refined tech in the current one).

Mechanically, as far as I'm aware, they should be fine. A quick look through owners' reports on Carsurvey.org seems mixed. A few seem to have gearbox issues and general consensus is that the manual 'box is just rubbish. Knocking suspension seems to be another issue regardless of which model you choose.

Put it this way, I'd be more willing to trust a Jaaaaag of the same vintage than the Merc. And it's not often you can say that.

 

[High-Test]

hfs says it perfectly. Aside from the drivetrain layout, the W203 has nothing a Maxima doesn't. In fact, I'd wager that the C Class is more sparsely equipped.

 

[JCE]

I've always liked the look of them.

Quite handsome things, if not as nice as the current C-Class. The issue with these models was, in common with all Mercs at the time, sub-standard build quality. The plastics are a bit nasty even on more expensive versions, they aren't as well screwed-together as the models before or after, and Mercedes' electrical systems were shocking around this time too. Again, models before or after are much better in this respect (less tech to go wrong in the previous model, more refined tech in the current one).

Mechanically, as far as I'm aware, they should be fine. A quick look through owners' reports on Carsurvey.org seems mixed. A few seem to have gearbox issues and general consensus is that the manual 'box is just rubbish. Knocking suspension seems to be another issue regardless of which model you choose.

Put it this way, I'd be more willing to trust a Jaaaaag of the same vintage than the Merc. And it's not often you can say that.

So even in 2006 and 2007 they didn't screw the Merc's together very well? In thought in 2004/2005-ish they solved the issue? I'm curious to see around what mileage on average Merc C-Class owners have these issues? If I get one it will have less than 60k miles for sure.

And you'd take a 2004-200? Jaaaaaaaaaaaag S-Type over the Merc? So, how are they screwed together? I love Jaaaaaaaaaags but I'm scared to death of the electrical issues of old. Give me a good reason to buy an S-Type with the 4.2L V8 with low miles...I'm listening.

hfs says it perfectly. Aside from the drivetrain layout, the W203 has nothing a Maxima doesn't. In fact, I'd wager that the C Class is more sparsely equipped.

One problem, I love Maximas...and I really do...but the Merc has one thing the Maxima doesn't. RWD Yes the Maxima is quite a bit faster in a straight line and in everyday driving, but the Merc is a Merc and it is RWD. Don't get me wrong I'd get a 2004-2006 Maxima SE in a heartbeat and love it forever, but I've already owned 2 Maximas and I've never owned a Merc.

Plus, I can't see the Mercs being that bad with its electrics if taken care of. Maybe I just need to be convinced.

 

[Casio]

I can't believe you're discussing Jaaaaaaaaag's, and dismissing Saaaaaaaaaab's.

This is maadness.

 

[homeforsummer]

So even in 2006 and 2007 they didn't screw the Merc's together very well? In thought in 2004/2005-ish they solved the issue? I'm curious to see around what mileage on average Merc C-Class owners have these issues? If I get one it will have less than 60k miles for sure.

Later ones might be better, I do remember road tests commenting that they seemed better built, but whether that solved the electrical gremlins I'm not sure. If you're going for one with comparatively low miles you might be okay. And the V6 should be a nice enough engine. My uncle owned a W203 C240 for a while and it was a nice car... just not the most reliable he's ever had. Still, it was better than the Range Rover Sport he has now...

And you'd take a 2004-200? Jaaaaaaaaaaaag S-Type over the Merc? So, how are they screwed together? I love Jaaaaaaaaaags but I'm scared to death of the electrical issues of old. Give me a good reason to buy an S-Type with the 4.2L V8 with low miles...I'm listening.

Hrrrrrrmmmmmm. Well I'm at a loss, because all the professional reviews and buyers guides I can find for the S-Type seem to be generally positive, but if you search for owners' reviews it's overwhelmingly negative. So I'm not quite sure who to believe as generally the press get their reliability information from the owners in the first place through reliability and customer satisfaction surveys (23/152 in Top Gear's 2007 survey and 9/100 in Auto Express's 2009 survey, and it's also come 14th, and 12th twice in previous years, but 37th in it's first year).

There's also the fact that bad news travels quicker than good news. Someone who's had a poor experience of a car is more likely to go on the internet and complain about it than someone whose car has been perfect from day one - so if reviews look negative, then they may well just be a few tiny drops of duds in a massive sea of happy owners.

From what I can find out though they definitely get better as they get newer. The first models with the most similarity to the Lincoln LS seem to do poorly, and as Jaaaaaaag improved the car so too did the reliability.

There are a couple of buyers' guides here and here, admittedly for UK buyers.

So you're best off making your own mind up on this one! I'd have an S-Type, but I can't hand-on-heart recommend one as reliable transport...

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Personally I'd go with the G35. Good choice. Great engine (the 350Z more than proves that), and it is technically a more luxurious 350Z with a different badge.

The A8 is very tasty as well, but there's a higher chance that somethings going to fail fairly soon when compared to the G35.

As for the Jaaaaaaaag situation, I'm a bit iffy on Jags. Most likely the one you're looking at is going to be coming straight from the Ford parts bin as it was only very recently that Jag was sold to Tata, so it's either going to be quite reliable or quite UNreliable...

 

[High-Test]

You want a Mercedes and you love maximas... Buy a newer Maxima AND a W124 E420. problem solved.