JGTC S2 Round 9 Qualif + Results

Time submitted.

I'm not pleased with my qualifying time but i've run out of time and have to submit. I just couldn't find any rhythm on this circuit and i think the results will show.
 
Nuvolari
Why anyone would brake with their left foot is beyond my comprehension, and I've heard a rumor that the new, yet to be released, DFP upgrade wheelset has a clutch pedal and you cannot downshift without using it. If they'd do it right it would be set up so you'd have to double-clutch on each downshift, but that might be too much.

Why is it beyond your comprehension? I, along with virtually every WRC driver, and every F1 driver, can't imagine competing without left-foot braking.

Oh, and the addition of a clutch would be very cool, but it wouldn't stop me left-foot braking. Left-foot braking is still possible in a manual gearchange car. Just look at Walter Rohrl's Audi Quattro video for an example.
 
VTRacing
Why is it beyond your comprehension? I, along with virtually every WRC driver, and every F1 driver, can't imagine competing without left-foot braking.

Oh, and the addition of a clutch would be very cool, but it wouldn't stop me left-foot braking. Left-foot braking is still possible in a manual gearchange car. Just look at Walter Rohrl's Audi Quattro video for an example.

The beyond my comprehension declaration was really rhetorical. Actually I think I understand perfectly why simulator drivers left foot brake.

Regarding F1 and WRC, my understanding is that some F1 drivers do left foot brake, but not all. Since they generally don't use the clutch manually (no pedal even?) when shifting down, that would make some sense, but that style is not universal. I think there might be a connection between the brake/throttle use style of F1 drivers and their prior experience in racing, such as Reikonnen jumping directly from karts into F1, and Shummi's background in karts. And WRC drivers surely make use of every possible manuver anyone could dream of while doing what amazing things they do.

But, driving sports cars on asphalt courses is not F1 and it's not WRC. So if the car has a clutch and you must use it to downshift, which is nearly always the case in sports car racing, you have to use the right foot to brake with. And it's also the way every one learns to drive unless they never learn to drive manual transmission cars. If you entered a race in GT4 in a stock M3 GTR, would you think it correct to left foot brake? Would it be considered realistic to always drive using left foot braking regardless of the car selected in GT4?

The reason everyone drives in GT4 using their left foot for braking is simply because normally the positioning of the pedalset of the DFP encourages users to do so. And I did it myself at first, without thinking obviously, until it came to me that what I was doing with the simulator was not at all what I would be doing if I was driving a real race car or a real high performance road car with manual gearboxes.

I think the big disadvantage to left foot braking is that it allows a driver to get into the habit of using the throttle and the brake at the same time, and there is almost never any reason to be doing that unless you're driving something like a kart with no torque and you have to keep the throttle nailed and use the brakes as kind of a "reverse" throttle.

So what do you think is the real benefit of left foot braking? How, specifically, can it help you get around quicker?

Anyway, what I'd like to do is encourage anyone to simply try driving using only their right foot, for a reasonable period of time, and see if they don't prefer it. Fortunately my cockpit is constructed of 3/4 oak plywood and all I had to do was move the pedal set to the right and screw it back down.
 
It's difficult to explain without being able to demonstrate, but there are a lot of benefits to left-foot braking.

It can be used:

To cure oversteer on the exit of corners. By applying brake while keeping the throttle down you can reduce wheelspin. Schumacher uses it for this purpose.

To cure understeer in the middle of corners. Left-foot braking through a corner transfers more weight to the front wheels if they are losing grip, much like momentarily lifting the throttle.

To stabilise transistions. For example, in the first section of the nurburgring I quite often use brake against the throttle when I'm quickly changing direction, especially if I'm having to slow down for the next corner. This keeps the car better tied-down than if I was simply jumping from throttle to brake or trying to modulate either pedal.

In real life it also works as a cheap version of a limited-slip diff on slippery surfaces. By slowing the spinning wheel (eg in a front-wheel drive rally car) you can transfer more torque to the gripping wheel.

I've also used it as a cheap form of ABS on slippery surfaces. While braking, if I think the wheels might lock I'll keep say 15% throttle on against the brake to keep the wheels turning. Though I only used this in a special case.

It's also handy in rally cars when you're coming up to a crest and you don't know what's on the other side. You can gently rest your foot on the brake, ready to apply it if necessary. As soon as you see the road is straight, you are instantly back on the gas. For the same reason, if I have to wipe off a little bit of speed, I prefer to left-foot brake rather than lift the throttle.

Regarding gearchanging, I know of at least one driver in the Australian V8Supercar series who never uses the clutch to change gear, and always left-foot brakes. These touring cars have a 6-speed dogbox which allows gearchanges without the clutch. Most race cars have a dogbox engagement system, however, most drivers tend to use the clutch to make the changes a bit smoother and be nicer on the 'box.

I would never suggest getting into the habit of left-foot braking in a standard road car, simply because it leaves you with no way of supporting your weight as you drive. You end up hanging off the steering wheel to brace yourself as you corner, which is not ideal. But in a car with a racing harness to hold you in, there is no such problem.

One final point, just because you have to use the clutch to downshift doesn't mean you can't left-foot brake. In my rallying experience, if I'm slowing down for a corner that will need a downchange, I brake with the right foot. Everywhere else I brake with the left. Sometimes I start braking with the left, then realise I have to downchange, which means I transfer my feet on the pedal. I place my right foot next to my left to keep braking, then move my left foot to the clutch. That's why I have an extension on the brake to make the pedal larger.
 
VTRacing
It's difficult to explain without being able to demonstrate, but there are a lot of benefits to left-foot braking.

All that curing of problems in corners by applying the brakes sounds like someone may have overdriven the bend and then had to jump on the brakes to save it.

Can anyone think of a situation where the brakes could be of benefit while driving the skid pad? Say you're driving around the skid pad at maximum angular velocity, while applying only enough power to maintain constant speed. What will happen if you even barely touch the brakes?

If some study is done of the friction circle it will be understood that it is impossible to increase lateral force in a given radius arc by applying the brakes when the tire is producing maximum lateral force with no braking or acceleration forces present. Maximum lateral force at the tire is generated when there is only enough power applied to maintain constant maximum velocity.

This major truth of cornering and of the actual frictional forces involved is that you can go quicker around a given radius when applying only enough throttle to maintain constant velocity. This means if you can apply lots of throttle in a corner, you have made a mistake because the car is going around the corner slower than would be possible with only that momentum maintaining amount of power. This is most easily understood when one is driving on the skid pad. An increase in power application or any application of the brakes while at maximum angular velocity and maximum lateral force generation of the tire will result in an increase in the turn radius, meaning you will be unable to hold the line. If the radius is larger, and all other factors remain the same, you can go faster around the larger radius but it will take more time than negotiating the smaller radius.

And think about the idea that Shummi would consider applying the brakes to retard wheelspin off a corner. He would be admitting that he cannot control power application and must use the brakes to control wheelspin? Jackie Stewart would faint. Isn't traction control still completely legal in F1? What would be going on with the front tires if Shummi was near the limit when he carefully applied the brakes? He would be guaranteed to immediately observe a dramatic increase in the turn radius and a resultant increase in his heart rate as the fence appeared directly ahead.

Carroll Smith said that the only time to apply the brakes in a corner is when you have overcooked it and made a nonsense of the entry, and then you should point it toward the fence---which you're going to hit anyway---and stand on them as hard as you can to at least slow it down some before impact.

An exception to this axiom is corner entry on an oval track, where often the entry radius fairly gradually decreases and drivers use the brakes carefully until they gain that desired tight radius. This manuver is quite a delicate thing and is very precisely done, and it produces about the same effect as greatly increased engine braking. This is an example of real brake trailing (off), usually incorrectly called "trail braking", and it is often necessary because of decreasing radius of the corner entry radius.

The really major point I'm trying to make here is that, given specialized exception, if you can EVER apply the brakes at any point in a corner and it doesn't result in disaster, you are not going as quickly as you could be if you were at the ideal point of maximum lateral force generation and maximum angular velocity.

As an addendum to this note, the official F! website has a lot of good information regarding all of these basic principles of friction and the "traction circle", etc, etc, and here is just one of the many pages:

http://www.formula1.com/insight/technicalinfo/11/839.html

Also, in the manual included with GT4 there is a great analogy explaning the basics of cornering, where the author uses the example of conceptual "strings" attached to steering wheel and brake, and steering wheel and throttle. Great stuff.

I personally think that almost the only way to experience a very close to realistic car/tire response in GT4 is to fit whatever car you like with standard road N3 tires. And a good place to practice the fine art of precision driving is at the Motegi oval track, using your "ghost" to compare what happens when you use different lines and power application, etc. Lots and lots of laps of that kind of practice will go a long way to help you develop the "feel" of going quick, which is not necessarily the same as going "fast".

I'm always impressed with the fact that there are so many excellent drivers here, and particularly in the JGTC series. If I were really rich, I'd foot the bill for two or three of you to attend a Skip Barber driving school and then we'd see about who gets to run the Mazda series.

GT4 is great fun because it's basically very realistic, but there's little comparison to real racing, and I encourage anyone with a couple of million to blow, (maybe a bit less if it's karts) to get out there and go for it for real.
 
ZeratulSG
Grr, that session with the Minolta has made me overcautious in the turns...I have to train myself to attack the corners again. I just spent about an hour chasing my laptime from a couple of days ago.

@fasj6418: Was it you who said you like the Minolta? Just curious, do you use TCS when you drive it?


oh yes, one of my favorite cars that minolta... just so much power:dopey:

i don´t use TCS, the only cars i use are the suzuki escudo and the speed 12...

as for this race, i´m almost breaking the second barrier i want... lets see what my fellow left foot brakers or not can do this round:)
 
EFJ
Yo Fasj6418 !

What tha hell is this picture ?

Dammm!

Holla!


krystal steal, my favorite actress:dopey:

the only picture i found in which she was not naked... so i´m using right now...

she is very hot, i can say that for sure:dopey:
 
:lol:
 
whats up!

I dont believe , i do a great lap and i forgot save !

dammm!

now i need do again !

ahhhhhhhh!

Holla!
 
VTR you are dead on with all your techniques!!!!

every example you typed out, is how i drive because it allows me to be on the limit for every corner of the track

i used to drive 1 footed, and discouraged 2-footing
but after switching to 2-foot, there is no way i would go back to 1

it helps in every aspect of the lap

Nuvolari
If I were really rich, I'd foot the bill for two or three of you to attend a Skip Barber driving school and then we'd see about who gets to run the Mazda series.

please win the lottery!!!, but put me into the Atlantics Series powerd by Mazda instead! :D
 
submitted... couldn´t get close to the ghost i was chasing, so i decided it was useless.

interesting that i tried my car without weight penalty, and it was not much of a difference... so i realized that the car trully sucks at apricott... (and many other tracks, but his days are numbered with me:) )

i´ll be a very lucky guy if i can get a point in this qualify session
 
If anyone has the time while waiting for the next event, you might be interested in the following thread at this website:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74032

It is possibly the most technically detailed discussion of some of the factors involved in driving on the entire website.

Just for reference.
 
My time is in. It feels quick, and unless there is something really screwed up about my line, it should hold up. I really hope the amount of time I put into this weeks quali pays of. I have clocked over 100 laps around here, basicly re-learning the entire track.

Good luck everyone. 👍
 
Jeez 100 laps, now I feel like a slacker. Already sent in my time and replay, I was close on the little S at the end so I sent it to EVFL for confirmation. Time will tell if that was a smart move. G'luck all!!

My new Avatar is my good friend and companion Maximo!! He's a LabraDaneBoxer weighing in at 105 Lbs.He hates my Chevelle, won't get in it, too loud....thank goodness!!
 
only did a couple of laps
 
Time Submitted.

Like Fasj, I don't think my car really suits this track either. But since I'm running relatively light this round, maybe I can get somewhere.
 
VTRacing
I would never suggest getting into the habit of left-foot braking in a standard road car, simply because it leaves you with no way of supporting your weight as you drive. You end up hanging off the steering wheel to brace yourself as you corner, which is not ideal. But in a car with a racing harness to hold you in, there is no such problem.
Heh, I need a harness for my cell phone. I was having fun on some twisty back roads, today, and when I stopped I couldn't find my phone in my pocket. Somehow it had come out, gotten over the edge of the seat and slide on the floor down toward the pedals. Fortunately, no harm done.
 
Thanks for the feedback h0tb0i, I just tried to explain it from my experience.

Nuvolari
Can anyone think of a situation where the brakes could be of benefit while driving the skid pad? Say you're driving around the skid pad at maximum angular velocity, while applying only enough power to maintain constant speed. What will happen if you even barely touch the brakes?

I basically agree with you here, but the skidpan is a special case because it is so slippery. It's difficult to get a great deal of weight transfer. What will happen is that the front will start to wash out, then as the speed drops slightly and the front wheels can take a little more grip it will shift weight forward and reduce grip to the rear and the tail of the car will come around. This can be very useful.

I agree that there is a maximum lateral grip load that the tyre can achieve, and that it will be best exploited under steady throttle application. Indeed, here at Apricot I found a few tenths by changing my style around the long left-hand sweeper to a steadier "hold the line" approach, governed by the grip of the front wheels. But the point is that it's quite rare, even for the best drivers, to be able to drive a car around a corner on the absolute grip limit of the tyres. You are usually going to be either slightly below or slightly beyond the limit. On these occasions, you need to be able to adjust the line and the speed of the car instantly and that is where left-foot braking is so useful.

Nuvolari
And think about the idea that Shummi would consider applying the brakes to retard wheelspin off a corner. He would be admitting that he cannot control power application and must use the brakes to control wheelspin? Jackie Stewart would faint. Isn't traction control still completely legal in F1? What would be going on with the front tires if Shummi was near the limit when he carefully applied the brakes? He would be guaranteed to immediately observe a dramatic increase in the turn radius and a resultant increase in his heart rate as the fence appeared directly ahead.

Trust me, read any F1 Racing magazine when the self-confessed Schumi fanboy Peter Windsor is talking about Michael's driving technique. You will see phrases like "delicate interplay of throttle and brake through the corner". Schumi uses throttle against the brake on the way into corners, and on the exit. Not every corner, and it doesn't have to be a lot of brake as you're suggesting, but it is a valid technique.

Nuvolari
Carroll Smith said that the only time to apply the brakes in a corner is when you have overcooked it and made a nonsense of the entry, and then you should point it toward the fence---which you're going to hit anyway---and stand on them as hard as you can to at least slow it down some before impact.

I have a lot of respect for Carroll Smith, and I've used his setup guides and tips in my own racing, but I don't always agree with everything he says. My driving style on circuits has been adapted from my rallying style. The big problem in rallying is that you can never truly be sure what any corner is like until you get there, and your biggest enemy is understeer. Even with pace-notes, there are subtleties of grip and texture that vary a great deal from corner to corner. So, it is vital that you have some way of adjusting the line of the car once you've committed to the corner. If you are using a style that relies on estimating the maximum lateral load of the front tyres for the corner coming up, then eventually you are going to get it wrong, and that will be painful.

So I apply that same philosophy to GT4. While it's not ideal if you're carrying too much speed, it doesn't have to be the end of the world if you can quickly bring the front of the car into line.

Anyway, for better or worse, we all have our own styles. Probably the best thing about GT4 is that it gets people thinking about what happens to a car on the limit, because your average road driver has no idea what his car could do until it's too late.
 
I've come to the realization that this series is just too damm good, to a point that it should simply be illegal. So without a choice I'll have to stop everything after S1 is done since I don't want to have any problems with the authorities.























































or not :sly: :D


On a side note, sucks to always have an underpowered ride all the time. You're pushing to the max but you always come short, then you think "damm if only I could have that extra 10-15hp". Still, the Motul is a really really nice car to drive and overall I have nothing to cry about. :)
 
EV4L, you do that again and I'm calling in the autorities! ;)
 
Results up, Casio and Drew on the pole. 👍 Congrats.

Now I have to go to work on this beautiful Monday morning. :)
 
i put some 4 hours or plus in this qualify, and i still didn´t get a point... i´m not quitting, but i think there´s nothing i can do about the season anymore... now its a battle for second:tup:
 
ok, it will be fun in suzuka:dopey:

also, to my friend kayquespurs, i told you it was a tough competition, but keep driving, you´ll like it:tup:
 
Whew! Guess my run was clean,didn't think it would be pole material, but I'm not complaining!!
 
eatsviper4lunch
I've come to the realization that this series is just too damm good, to a point that it should simply be illegal. So without a choice I'll have to stop everything after S1 is done since I don't want to have any problems with the authorities.























































or not :sly: :D


On a side note, sucks to always have an underpowered ride all the time. You're pushing to the max but you always come short, then you think "damm if only I could have that extra 10-15hp". Still, the Motul is a really really nice car to drive and overall I have nothing to cry about. :)


yes, it handles like a dream and has a good torque...
i´ll swap for my car any minute:D (and you can have my sponsors also)
so put me on the list to grab this car for S2... but cars will likely have a little tweak (i still hope you have this idea, like you said previously) so we will have to wait and see how they stack up in S2

i think my skyline is crying, because i trash him so much... and i´m a skyline lover, so go figure...💡
right now i´m getting the "biggest crying baby of the season award" because of the car talk... but i just can´t stop...
 
Second. Awesome. At this point in the season, any points I can gain on Soyfu and Andge are good. Awesome job drew, you slacker, and Casio. Great job. :)

Now for the race. It's going to be tough, since I seem to run off the track alot at turn 5, or the end of the esses.

Good luck in the race everyone. 👍
 
@ejr - this means war!!! ;)

@Andge - I hope you're happy with 2nd place, pal

@Drew - stop stealing points from team affiliated drivers :P

@EV4L - you're right... this is too fun to be legal!
 
I'm not stealing, just borrowing for a spell.
I sent my replay to EVFL yesterday and asked him to review it, I was confidant it was clean, but I wanted to be sure. My biggest nightmare would be having a replay requested and it turned out dirty. After all, your good name is all you got here!!
 
Excellent! My first anything for the season!

@VT Racing: That car is amazing at qualifying, +5 more weight then me and I only had you by 0.15 seconds! I have to get your car a shot later tonight
 
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