Jules Bianchi passes away following accident at 2014 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix

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Streiff has become a bit of a looney I suspect.
There's a saying that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing to have. Whatever his faults, Strieff does have some experience in this area, which is fair enough - but between Schumacher and Bianchi, he's suddenly found himself in the thick of it, and he hasn't used his powers for good.
 
I think he could be right on the FIA thing though, didn't they set up their own commision for that?

Or was it completely independant.
 
It was set up by the FIA, but it was created to be independent. It's proof of nothing.

Meanwhile, it appears that Gary Hartstein intends to go down with the Good Ship Streiff, blindly overlooking the way Streiff's accusations of criminal conspiracy are not supported by any evidence and are essentially libel without it, to accuse the FIA of being cynical and malevolent.
 
It was set up by the FIA, but it was created to be independent. It's proof of nothing.

Meanwhile, it appears that Gary Hartstein intends to go down with the Good Ship Streiff, blindly overlooking the way Streiff's accusations of criminal conspiracy are not supported by any evidence and are essentially libel without it, to accuse the FIA of being cynical and malevolent.
"In addition, when we look at the composition of the panel, we realise that fully HALF the members have a clear and unambiguous conflict of interest in any investigation. The current positions, and indeed future careers in motorsport, of those panel members who are not dear personal friends of the FIA president depend intimately on remaining in his good graces. Mind you, I am not impugning the integrity of anyone. That’s what’s so insidious with conflicts of interest. They only have to exist to have their negative effects"

https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/the-bianchi-accident-investigation-panel/

https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2...ter-to-gerard-saillant-oh-yeah-jean-todt-too/
 
It was set up by the FIA, but it was created to be independent. It's proof of nothing.

Meanwhile, it appears that Gary Hartstein intends to go down with the Good Ship Streiff, blindly overlooking the way Streiff's accusations of criminal conspiracy are not supported by any evidence and are essentially libel without it, to accuse the FIA of being cynical and malevolent.
Well Technically he is right about what he said on the after events of the incident regarding the helicopter and he did have evidence.
 
So called ''Independent'' Panel:


Composition of the Accident Panel

Presidency

Peter Wright, President of the Safety Commission P

Members

Ross Brawn, former Team Principal of Mercedes F1 Team, Brawn Grand Prix and former Technical Director of Scuderia Ferrari

Stefano Domenicali, former Team Principal of Scuderia Ferrari

Gerd Ennser, Chief Stewards’ representative P

Emerson Fittipaldi, President of the FIA Drivers’ Commission, F1 Steward P

Eduardo de Freitas, WEC Race Director P

Roger Peart, President of the Circuits Commission, President of the ASN of Canada, F1 Steward P

Antonio Rigozzi, Advocate, Judge at the International Court of Appeal of the FIA co-opted by the teams

Gérard Saillant, President of the FIA Institute and President of the Medical Commission P

Alex Wurz, President of the GPDA, drivers’ representative


I've Highighted those on FIA Payroll with P



Since then, Domenicali has got a Role in the FIA.

To say half of the commission was on FIA Payroll is pretty much bang on.

Source: http://www.fia.com/news/accident-panel
 
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To say half of the commission was on FIA Payroll is pretty much bang on.
Except that you're taking things out of context. Streiff didn't say that half of the panel was made up of FIA members. He said that the panel was put together by Todt and Salliant for the purpose of exonerating the FIA of any wrongdoing. It's an accusation that they engaged in a criminal conspiracy to cover up their negligence, which is not the same thing as having members who are paid by the FIA.

Furthermore, look at some of the members - in particular Eduardo de Freitas, the WEC race director. He is the WEC's equivalent of Charlie Whiting. Part of the review panel's role was to look at the procedure that was followed by race control. For that, they needed someone with experience as a race director - and every race director is an employee of the FIA.

You're obviously trying to prove that the panel wasn't independent, but your own evidence of this is a correlation between some panel members and FIA employees, but by your own admission, only half of them align, and as I have just demonstrated in the case of de Freitas, they were obviously chosen for their expert knowledge.

Do you know what this means?

It means you just committed libel.
 
Except that you're taking things out of context. Streiff didn't say that half of the panel was made up of FIA members. He said that the panel was put together by Todt and Salliant for the purpose of exonerating the FIA of any wrongdoing. It's an accusation that they engaged in a criminal conspiracy to cover up their negligence, which is not the same thing as having members who are paid by the FIA.

Furthermore, look at some of the members - in particular Eduardo de Freitas, the WEC race director. He is the WEC's equivalent of Charlie Whiting. Part of the review panel's role was to look at the procedure that was followed by race control. For that, they needed someone with experience as a race director - and every race director is an employee of the FIA.

You're obviously trying to prove that the panel wasn't independent, but your own evidence of this is a correlation between some panel members and FIA employees, but by your own admission, only half of them align, and as I have just demonstrated in the case of de Freitas, they were obviously chosen for their expert knowledge.

Do you know what this means?

It means you just committed libel.
Fact is there is a conflict of interest with the Panel straight from the get go so FIA's case is going to be basically Nil.

Also highlighting who is being paid by the FIA isn't Libel, not to mention I haven't said anything that wasn't exactly true, 5 of 9 members on the Panel are being paid by the FIA. Not saying anything other then this, but that is a Conflict of
interest by every meaning of the word.

The Panel may have
chosen Experts, and the report they gave may be exactly 100% true, but fact remains it's not independent.

 
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First off, the "independent" panel is not investigating the FIA. It is investigating F1, and, more specifically, the stewards and race director... and whether or not rules were followed and whether they have to be changed.

An administrative investigation, not a criminal one. Criminal liability may be found against specific persons involved in the race, not Jean Todt or F1 itself... But the point is, it's an investigation in aid of regulation, to see if the rules need to be changed.

Secondly, reading through the article, the doctor's beef seems to be with the transit time, which he says contravenes regulations, which requires the hospital to be reachable in just twenty minutes, except in cases of "force majeure"...

Last I looked, an approaching typhoon was considered force majeure... At least that's what all our insurance forms claim...
 
First off, the "independent" panel is not investigating the FIA. It is investigating F1, and, more specifically, the stewards and race director... And whether or not rules were followed and whether they have to be changed.

An administrative investigation, not a criminal one. Criminal liability may be found against specific persons involved in the race, not Jean Todt or F1 itself.

Secondly, reading through the article, the doctor's beef seems to be with the transit time, which he says contravenes regulations, which requires the hospital to be reachable in just twenty minutes, except in cases of "force majeure"...

Last I looked, an approaching typhoon was considered force majeure... At least that's what all our insurance forms claim...
But then the race it self would have to be red Flagged if it's not possible to use the Helicopter, the Typhoon was known to all well before the race started.

Thats
at-least what it says in the Rules.

Also: provided that the receiving hospital has been approved beforehand for the treatment presumed necessary according to the casualty’s condition and that it can be reached in approximately 20 minutes (except for serious burns), regardless of the weather and road traffic conditions (except in a case of force majeure).

Like I said, the Typhoon didn't just come it was known to all before the race started, therefore Force Majeure doesn't exactly apply.
 
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Firstly, the typhoon did not prevent the helicopter from taking off. There was heavy rain, but that is no obstacle; strong winds are, and there were none.

Secondly, the decision to transport Bianchi by road was made because it was a shorter, more direct route by road, and given the inclement weather, they did not know the conditions at the hospital.

The regulations only state that a Grand Prix can only take place if the helicopter can take off - there is nothing that says that in the event of a serious accident, injured drivers must always be airlifted to hospital. Look at Singapore, for instance. If a driver has an accident and is injured on Raffles Boulevard, it would be completely impractical to get a helicopter in there. And ambulance would be much more efficient. If the rules demanded an air evacuation every time, it would be impractical to the point of being counter-productive in certain instances, and that would mean a lower standard of care. That's why the rules are written so broadly - to give the doctors options to deliver the best standard of care.
 
Firstly, the typhoon did not prevent the helicopter from taking off. There was heavy rain, but that is no obstacle; strong winds are, and there were none.[/SIZE]

Secondly, the decision to transport Bianchi by road was made because it was a shorter, more direct route by road, and given the inclement weather, they did not know the conditions at the hospital.

The regulations only state that a Grand Prix can only take place if the helicopter can take off - there is nothing that says that in the event of a serious accident, injured drivers must always be airlifted to hospital. Look at Singapore, for instance. If a driver has an accident and is injured on Raffles Boulevard, it would be completely impractical to get a helicopter in there. And ambulance would be much more efficient. If the rules demanded an air evacuation every time, it would be impractical to the point of being counter-productive in certain instances, and that would mean a lower standard of care. That's why the rules are written so broadly - to give the doctors options to deliver the best standard of care.
What I meant was Helicopter/Ambulance but total time cannot exceed 20 mins.

This is what it says though, the only time it can exceed 20 mins in any-case is in Force Majeure, if weather is not an issue like you said what does that mean?

Anyway some facts:
FIA chief medical officer Jean-Charles Piette: "The main referral hospital, which is Mie General Medical Centre, is 15km from the circuit. The distance by road is supposed to be 25 minutes under normal circumstances.

"When Jules had his accident, the chief medical officer told me at that moment that the helicopter can take off from the circuit but cannot land at the hospital.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116271
 
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Anyway some facts:
FIA chief medical officer Jean-Charles Piette: "The main referral hospital, which is Mie General Medical Centre, is 15km from the circuit. The distance by road is supposed to be 25 minutes under normal circumstances.

"When Jules had his accident, the chief medical officer told me at that moment that the helicopter can take off from the circuit but cannot land at the hospital.
So ... what, exactly?

The doctors had a choice: twenty-five minutes per road, or nothing at all. But the rules say that the journey cannot take more than twenty minutes, so what were they supposed to do?

If there's a problem here, it's with the regulations that don't take into account variables like this. Not with the doctors following procedure.
 
So ... what, exactly?

The doctors had a choice: twenty-five minutes per road, or nothing at all. But the rules say that the journey cannot take more than twenty minutes, so what were they supposed to do?

If there's a problem here, it's with the regulations that don't take into account variables like this. Not with the doctors following procedure.
Technically stop the race before it's not possible to comply with regulations.
 
Technically stop the race before it's not possible to comply with regulations.
So somebody was supposed to anticipate that variable weather conditions had the potential to prevent an obscure rule from being fulfilled at any given time during the race? If that were the case, then no race could ever be run.

Do you even think about what you post before you press reply?
 
So somebody was supposed to anticipate that variable weather conditions had the potential to prevent an obscure rule from being fulfilled at any given time during the race? If that were the case, then no race could ever be run.

Do you even think about what you post before you press reply?
do you?

Like I said 3 times already the Weather was Well documented on before the race started.
 
Like I said 3 times already the Weather was Well documented on before the race started.
But you're expecting that somehow, someone could could anticipate that the travel time by road to the hospital would exceed twenty minutes. And you're expecting them to be able to predict something so subjective with accuracy and reliability. Which is completely ridiculous, given that it is subject to so many variables beyond the control of the race organisers. What if, hypothetically, an ambulance was needed, but on the journey to the hospital there was an accident on the road ahead, or flash flooding, or a fallen tree, or any one of a hundred issues that could prevent the ambulance from arriving at a hospital in twenty minutes?

You're so intent on proving that the FIA did the wrong thing that you're blind to the flaws of your own argument. You're starting to sound like the person who claimed that Michael Schumacher's doctors failed in their duty of care because they didn't take him straight to a neurosurgery unit when he had his accident.
 
But you're expecting that somehow, someone could could anticipate that the travel time by road to the hospital would exceed twenty minutes. And you're expecting them to be able to predict something so subjective with accuracy and reliability. Which is completely ridiculous, given that it is subject to so many variables beyond the control of the race organisers. What if, hypothetically, an ambulance was needed, but on the journey to the hospital there was an accident on the road ahead, or flash flooding, or a fallen tree, or any one of a hundred issues that could prevent the ambulance from arriving at a hospital in twenty minutes?

You're so intent on proving that the FIA did the wrong thing that you're blind to the flaws of your own argument. You're starting to sound like the person who claimed that Michael Schumacher's doctors failed in their duty of care because they didn't take him straight to a neurosurgery unit when he had his accident.
Im not intent on anything all I have done and Quote me otherwise, is show where they haven't followed their own rules.

Also its the Safety Delegates job to ensure the times for travel are known before hand in both Air and on Land, Weather stopping the journey happening to the Hospital mid flight or drive would clearly be Force Majeure.

Im not claiming anything on Micheal Schumacher this is all you.
 
Im not intent on anything all I have done and Quote me otherwise, is show where they haven't followed their own rules.
Rules that were impractical to follow. Rules that, if followed, would have made the situation worse.

Also its the Safety Delegates job to ensure the times for travel are known before hand in both Air and on Land, Weather stopping the journey happening to the Hospital mid flight or drive would clearly be Force Majeure.
And they did know that time. But the conditions worsened before Bianchi could be transported to hospital. Things visibly deteriorated when Sutil went off, and Bianchi followed him moments later. It took time to stabilise him and get him out of the car. By your own logic, that is force majeure - the travel time to the hospital extended to twenty-five minutes while Bianchi was being attended to. So why are you arguing that the stewards didn't follow their own rules?

Im not claiming anything on Micheal Schumacher this is all you.
I didn't say you were that person. I said that you sound like that person.
 
Pre-typhoon conditions will not stop an Ambulance, but it will have an unpredictable effect on traffic patterns

Selecting a hospital just 15 kms away satisfies the 20 minute regulation, but if there is a hold up due to traffic... which can and will change over the course of the afternoon... that is beyond the control of the officials at the circuit.

You can reasonably expect an ambulance to make that trip in the specified amount of time. That it didn't doesn't automatically mean there was neglect involved.
 
Pre-typhoon conditions will not stop an Ambulance, but it will have an unpredictable effect on traffic patterns

Selecting a hospital just 15 kms away satisfies the 20 minute regulation, but if there is a hold up due to traffic... which can and will change over the course of the afternoon... that is beyond the control of the officials at the circuit.

You can reasonably expect an ambulance to make that trip in the specified amount of time. That it didn't doesn't automatically mean there was neglect involved.
Well it was already known before hand that it was 25 minutes to the hospital in Normal conditions.

FIA chief medical officer Jean-Charles Piette: "The main referral hospital, which is Mie General Medical Centre, is 15km from the circuit. The distance by road is supposed to be 25 minutes under normal circumstances.
 
Well it was already known before hand that it was 25 minutes to the hospital in Normal conditions.
But it wasn't known that the helicopter could not land at the hospital. The original plan was to airlift Bianchi, but they discovered that the conditions at the hospital had deteriorated to the point where landing was impossible. Think back to the actual race - a storm cell moved in, triggering Sutil's spin and Bianchi's accident. It was that same storm cell that hit the hospital. Conditions deteriorated in the time between Sutil going off and Bianchi being extracted from the car. Why don't you understand this? And what would you propose as an alternative - demolishing the circuit and building it closer to the hospital?
 
But it wasn't known that the helicopter could not land at the hospital. The original plan was to airlift Bianchi, but they discovered that the conditions at the hospital had deteriorated to the point where landing was impossible. Think back to the actual race - a storm cell moved in, triggering Sutil's spin and Bianchi's accident. It was that same storm cell that hit the hospital. Conditions deteriorated in the time between Sutil going off and Bianchi being extracted from the car. Why don't you understand this? And what would you propose as an alternative - demolishing the circuit and building it closer to the hospital?
Under the regulations there should be a red flag instantly if the conditions can not allow, I get what your saying but the fact was the weather was known and to be fair they did recommend the race started earlier to avoid the scenario in the first place but was denied by the race promoter.

End of day they pushed on with only one Viable source of transport under their own regulations(Helicopter) for this track and there was an incoming Typhoon that was well Known before the race started, and all weather reports suggested it was coming towards the area they where in.
 
End of the day, weather conditions did not prevent said helicopter from taking off and the ambulance was still a viable alternative (unless you are suggesting that, in normal weather, since the ambulance ride would be to long either way, no races can be held until Suzuka build its own hospital?). Only landing at the hospital was an issue. Something they did not know beforehand, and could not predict happening before the race. Force Majeure.

Of course, without all the data included in that report, none of us knows exactly, but given what we do know, I don't see any reason to doubt that the regulations were followed as well as the situation allowed.
 
I think everyone is also skipping the bit where a majority of the drivers voiced their hopes that the race would be moved up earlier. Not sure what, if anything, was exchanged between drivers and organizers, but social media shows that a decent majority of the drivers were uncomfortable with the race forecast. Correct me if I'm wrong please, but if drivers were also uncomfortable with that, wouldn't the GPDA have power to at least make a soundoff on this?
 
Under the regulations there should be a red flag instantly if the conditions can not allow, I get what your saying
Do you?

Here it is once again: at the time of the accident, conditions allowed for Bianchi to be transported by helicopter. However, in the time it took for the medical staff to stabilise him and remove him from the car, the conditions deteriorated to the point where landing a helicopter at the hospital was not possible.

Stabilising Bianchi and removing him from the car took time. As soon as it became apparent that there was a serious accident, the helicopter would have been put on notice, but you don't just yank someone with a brain injury out of a car - you'll probably kill him. The doctors would have needed to stabilise him first, to make sure that moving him was safe.
 
Do you?

Here it is once again: at the time of the accident, conditions allowed for Bianchi to be transported by helicopter. However, in the time it took for the medical staff to stabilise him and remove him from the car, the conditions deteriorated to the point where landing a helicopter at the hospital was not possible.

Stabilising Bianchi and removing him from the car took time. As soon as it became apparent that there was a serious accident, the helicopter would have been put on notice, but you don't just yank someone with a brain injury out of a car - you'll probably kill him. The doctors would have needed to stabilise him first, to make sure that moving him was safe.
where does it say this though, I have not seen anything claim that the time getting him out of the car didn't allow the helicopter to be landed at the Hospital.

What it did say though was:
"When Jules had his accident, the chief medical officer told me at that moment that the helicopter can take off from the circuit but cannot land at the hospital.

"So we decided, as initially thought from the morning, to use a resuscitation ambulance to go to hospital. With a police escort, the duration of the transfer was 32 minutes."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116271

So essentially they had a feeling this would happen so their plan was to break the regulations rather then not allow the race to start, to follow them.
 
So essentially they had a feeling this would happen so their plan was to break the regulations rather then not allow the race to start, to follow them.
The ambulance was a back-up plan. They had always intended to use a helicopter, but they wanted alternatives. When it had been considered in the morning, the travel time was within the acceptable window.

Your entire line of argument is based on the assumption that the FIA did something wrong. But here's the problem - doctors aren't bound by the regulations; they are bound by their duty of care. If a regulation stands in their way, they will ignore it.

So, here's a radical thought: stop trying to force the sequence of events to fit your theory, and instead consider the evidence and come to a conclusion from there.
 
The ambulance was a back-up plan. They had always intended to use a helicopter, but they wanted alternatives. When it had been considered in the morning, the travel time was within the acceptable window.

Your entire line of argument is based on the assumption that the FIA did something wrong. But here's the problem - doctors aren't bound by the regulations; they are bound by their duty of care. If a regulation stands in their way, they will ignore it.

So, here's a radical thought: stop trying to force the sequence of events to fit your theory, and instead consider the evidence and come to a conclusion from there.
Im not blaming any doctors here or even fact anyone, I am using the FIA regulations as a source and then added what they said to show that it conflicts with it.

Your the one here coming to the conclusions that the FIA has nothing to answer for without any proof of anything and assumptions which some where wrong.

Duty of care does not apply to this instance as no one atleast from my knowledge of events of what has been said in the report said the helicopter isn't fit to carry said patient, what was the issue was the incident was in a time period in which:

A: They knew weather was coming well before the race was started that may or may not effect the outcome of the only means of transport within regulations getting to a Hospital

B: Why the race was allowed to start with this being the case.

And all this Info is what is just said in the report that the FIA themselves released.
 
Im not blaming any doctors here or even fact anyone, I am using the FIA regulations as a source and then added what they said to show that it conflicts with it.
You're cherry-picking your facts to suit the argument. Allow me to punch a gaping hole in your case to show you what I mean:

They knew weather was coming well before the race was started that may or may not effect the outcome of the only means of transport within regulations getting to a Hospital
Firstly, they did not know that the weather was coming. They knew that it could come, as typhoons - just like hurricanes and tropical cyclones; they are all the same thing - can and do change direction without warning. Given that the circuit only caught the outer rim of the typhoon, there was never any guarantee that it would hit (if there was, the race never would have taken place, since the winds can be faster than the cars).

Secondly, you claim that the ambulance was "the only means of transport", even though one of your previous posts - in which you quote the report - directly contradicts this:

"When Jules had his accident, the chief medical officer told me at that moment that the helicopter can take off from the circuit but cannot land at the hospital.

"So we decided, as initially thought from the morning, to use a resuscitation ambulance to go to hospital. With a police escort, the duration of the transfer was 32 minutes."
So if you're not cherry-picking your facts, what are you doing?

You have also thus far made a point of ignoring the timeline in which Bianchi needed to be stabilised and extracted from the car. As per the report, a decision was made, but no context is given as to when it was made. Between stabilising Bianchi and the deteriorating weather conditions, twelve minutes in travel time could have been lost, which by your own argument, is a case of force majeure.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the stewards knew that the travel time would be over twenty minutes when they made the decision to use an ambulance, which you have so far failed to demonstrate. All that you have shown so far is that the travel time was over twenty minutes, not that the stewards knew that it would be.
 
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