Kazunori Yamauchi: Driving Simulators Shouldn't be Difficult

[05XR8]

And I think that's why those controllers are $100AUD(new).

 

[XxHighWayStarXx]

"These games are generally seen as more difficult to become truly good at — especially with a controller."
How can it be a simulation if you are driving with a hand held controller? Haven't seen too many cars being driven with a Playstation controller lately....
A 'simulation' is exactly that... it simulates driving a car. It should not be easy to drive using a hand held controller..... If you want easy, go and 'play' a Daytona arcade game....

"Simulator" has different meanings depending on your perception. All games simulate to some degree.
And EVERY game genre has you doing things with a controller - that's why it's a game.
None of us are trying to be a "real life" racer when we play these games. We know the difference.
It's all pretend. So even if you use a "serious" wheel to play racing games, you are still just pretending - except with a pretend wheel instead of a controller.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Driving a car to its limits is not difficult, as the one thing that stops most people from doing it is fear.
I'm not saying it is easy, but almost anyone could do it given the correct training and if they apply themselves correctly.

This part of your post really confuses me. You say driving a car to its limits is not difficult, but then say it's not easy either. Which one is it? I know some users on here know me more than others, but as someone who has competed professionally and has acted as an instructor at multiple North American racetracks and as an advisor for games in the past, I don't really understand your statement.

If you could elaborate what you mean by "it's not difficult...not saying it is easy" statement, I'd very much appreciate that.

 

[photonrider]

“A common misunderstanding when making a racing simulator, is thinking the real physics are difficult. I run in races, both in real life and virtually, but in the end driving a car is not that difficult.

So, if a driving simulator is difficult, it means that something went wrong in the process.” - Kaz the man.

'Racing' simulator mentioned, then a shift in subject to 'driving' simulator.

"Perfection of Perceptions precedes the perception of Perfection." - The Proportions of Reality" Tales on Time - H. Beekmeyer.


Kaz, I love your driving game.
Especially, at the end of the day. I speak for millions.

 

[TVR27]

I don't want Gran Turismo Sport to be easy because I'm sick of 9 year olds who can't drive or do more than 3 laps and demand everything in 4k arcade and shouting on the headset all day and throwing tantrums everytime they lose a race. I think everyone should pass all Gran Turismo licence tests before been allowed to play online! If you want a easy to play game go back to Need For Speed the last thing I want os bad drivers! I don't want young people to like Gran Turismo Sport because they will just ruin the game for people who have been around since the start. I know to many GT players who haven't played Gran Turismo 4 and its sad! I would rather have a older fan base than a young fan base that olny care about easy to play 4k games.

Rant over......

 

[TurboNindo]

I agree with Kazunori-san a simulation is supposed to make you feel like your are driving the car like you would in real life some effects can not be recreated so this is where people get lost on whether it's a simulation or not. For example if you turn the wheel does the car react yes but reacting exactly the same as a real race car how many of players have actually experienced this or know how this feels and even if you have your feel and sensations of driving are going to be different to someone else so my point is why should it be difficult if you don't know yourself one might find it hard where another night not. P.S. I'll buy the game and all the other racers

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'd like any disabled people that drive, to chime in on this discussion. Seriously...

Done.
I don't drive at the moment (and probably never will but you never know) but I have driven a Subaru Liberty and it was soo bloody easy... Consider Kaz' opinion controversial as you will but he is right. Driving is not difficult, but racing successfully is. Project Cars and Assetto Corsa are very difficult to play (but Project Cars is way more fun) yet when you get into a rhythm, it doesn't seem as difficult to drive. I will admit that GT is much less hardcore than Project Cars, but I think his philosophy is that if a game is too difficult, it doesn't really help to convey the accessibility of driving. If people see the game as hard, they will not buy it, but Kaz wants gamers of all ages to realise the fun of driving. However I will also say that Gran Turismo is far detached from an arcade game. It does involve more skill compared to Need For Speed and Driveclub.

 

[Brend]

It isn't all the way there, but the XB1 controller's rumbly triggers really are a game-changer for racing games on pad, particularly with braking. I feel like I know precisely where the threshold lies with ABS off.

It's a shame anything outside Forza either doesn't use them at all or well enough. There's some real potential there, just wish it was tapped into more often.

I remember when I first got my Xbox One S and after playing the 🤬 out of Horizon 3 for months going back to the DS4 on PlayStation. It felt like something was wrong because the experience is so sterile.

There's a technology in the Switch that I hope makes its way over to regular game systems - HD Rumble. It simply has to be experienced to be believed in it's best uses. The way it replicates what happens in-game is far and away ahead of anything else available on the market. It would be amazing for sim racing.

Ironically enough, the HD Rumble feature would be best suited to intensive titles - something that won't arrive on the Switch as much as the PS4 and Xbox One.

 

[Maddens Raiders]

This game will be the greatest of his epoch. Created by a genius for lovers of motor sport, like me. - God bless you Kaz.

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[leeboy910]

If you could elaborate what you mean by "it's not difficult...not saying it is easy" statement, I'd very much appreciate that.

Probably a poor choice of wording and lack of further explanation on my part. Apologies.
Whilst it isn't difficult to drive a car on the limit once you know how, getting to that stage isn't easy.
Your ordinary Joe Blow off the street can't simply jump in a car, and drive it to its limits right away. The same Joe Blow, with the correct training and experience, can learn to drive a car to its limits and find it relatively easy compared to when he first started.

Essentially what I'm saying, is that driving is something that you get better at with the right experience and training. Kaz is saying that driving a car isn't difficult, and for someone with his experience, he's right. Judging a simulator on how difficult it is doesn't really make sense because as Kaz says, driving is quite a simple thing to do. Driving at the limit around a track is the same thing, but takes more experience and training to do so.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Funktipus]

Modern GT cars and LMPs are surprisingly easy to drive. While they do require a great amount of talent to get the maximum potential out of them, they will not beat the driver up like the old Group B/Group C/ Group 5 cars of the 70s and 80s. Engine, suspension and tire technology has evolved in a way everything has a much smoother delivery and feel, making it less difficult to get the maximum out of the car. Getting the most out of, say, a Porsche 962 in a game should evidently be harder than doing the same thing in an R18 or 919.

Science, it gets stuff done.

Same goes for rally cars. It's crazy how engineers made them easier to drive (it's also linked to FIA's Group B ban and power restriction). I had the chance, in the context of my job, to talk with rally engineers and pilots, and they said, whatever the surface (with the exception of deep mud or really eroded and cold tarmac), cars are driving like karts. Easy and fast steering, incredibly efficient brakes, reactive and adaptive suspension, flexible car frame to sustain shocks and terrain deformation, you name it.

 

[Mr Tree]

It's still a game for a vast majority of people though, Sony wouldn't turn a profit or sell as many systems if they solely focused on it being a hardcore simulator. They also can't assume most players will want to shell out the money for a wheel after shelling out $60 for a game, $30 for a season pass, and $300+ for a console, especially when a perfectly capable controller comes with the system right out of the box. Every console game should be able to be played with the device the console is sold with, however, I do agree there should be different settings in the game if their is a large part of the gaming population that wishes to play with an add-on. Just like if a flight sim was released for the console, I'd fully expect it to be playable with a controller, but having the ability to adjust settings to make a joystick or yolk work better is something they should probably include too.

I get that to many sim racing is a hobby, but that doesn't mean that it's not an entertainment product first and foremost in the eyes of Sony, that's why I think having many customization options within a game benefits it greatly. I think Forza has done a good job with this and even offers players who use less of the aids more in game credits as a reward for playing at a higher difficulty.

Look at it this way, there are tons of people who use Lego sets as a hobby and build some amazing things with them, up to and including life sized replicas, but it doesn't mean that Lego sets and blocks aren't a toy first and foremost.

Smaller studios can get away with building more hardcore games for niche audiences because they don't have the overhead or investors to worry about as much. Also these smaller games are often launched on the PC, which doesn't come with a controller and they have the ability to dedicate their design to one specific input device like a wheel.

Yes they need to focus on the casual to make money I'm the first to admit that. That kind of is what gt is all about. I have not played gt since gt4 so have no marker on current realism. But if you want to sell to casuals by having a simpler physics engine well then don't lie and start saying it's because it isn't hard in real life.

Now I have no real life track experience so I'll not try to defend nor mock the physics of gt, but then right there in the end he said something that was so 'wrong' and from the limited time here on this forum that's not his first.

He just draws conclusions from observations in which he acts like to variables corelate while they dot have to.

In this case: 'we have good physics because we have fia championships.'

Really? It could just as well be Fia doezn't care about your physics, all they care about is getting their name tied to the (historically) biggest racegame name in the industry before this e-sport takes of without them.

See what I mean he draws conclusions while other factors could be involved. Countless times have people told me that that's not lying but if it's not lying well just making the claim as if truth is ignorance. It's one of the 2 and imo he knows exactly what he says and why and he knows exactly when he's spinning the truth. And well I fail to bring up empathy and say it's because of this and this. I just say he's lying he knows what he's doing and he knows why he's doing it. Primary reason probably is money and therefor imo he is immoral and unethical.

 

[Knukel]

The first times i played AC after GT i found it's handling very boring and easy, especially the road cars. Cars felt to have too much weight and grip. I started to play it using same technique what GT needs to to get best lap times: Full braking late as possible, using trail braking to loose rear to hit apex and quick exit.
Quickly found that staying calm in AC is the key for fast laps. Avoiding slip, which is actually quite easy to do.
Many have adapted familiar overdriving technique after playing Gt Sport.
- So driving a car in GT (like you shouldn't irl) is quite easy, but if you adapt correct irl driving style, you are not competitive at all.
- GT tecnique in AC is near impossible to handle and yet it only cost time making you uncompetitive.

 

[super_gt]

Probably a poor choice of wording and lack of further explanation on my part. Apologies.
Whilst it isn't difficult to drive a car on the limit once you know how, getting to that stage isn't easy.
Your ordinary Joe Blow off the street can't simply jump in a car, and drive it to its limits right away. The same Joe Blow, with the correct training and experience, can learn to drive a car to its limits and find it relatively easy compared to when he first started.

Essentially what I'm saying, is that driving is something that you get better at with the right experience and training. Kaz is saying that driving a car isn't difficult, and for someone with his experience, he's right. Judging a simulator on how difficult it is doesn't really make sense because as Kaz says, driving is quite a simple thing to do. Driving at the limit around a track is the same thing, but takes more experience and training to do so.

Does that make more sense?

If you need to know how and if you need correct training and experience then it is equal to difficult for the casual player.Also the casual drivers(in the real world)with the correct training,experience,knowledge can learn to drive faster but not on the limit,only Schumacher and other talented racing drivers can drive the cars on the limit.
The casual player wants to grab the controller and drive from the very first corner as fast as Schumacher without crash and IMO this is what Kazunori Yamauchi is trying to do with GT Sport.

 

[PzR Slim]

The first times i played AC after GT i found it's handling very boring and easy, especially the road cars. Cars felt to have too much weight and grip. I started to play it using same technique what GT needs to to get best lap times: Full braking late as possible, using trail braking to loose rear to hit apex and quick exit.
Quickly found that staying calm in AC is the key for fast laps. Avoiding slip, which is actually quite easy to do.
Many have adapted familiar overdriving technique after playing Gt Sport.
- So driving a car in GT (like you shouldn't irl) is quite easy, but if you adapt correct irl driving style, you are not competitive at all.
- GT tecnique in AC is near impossible to handle and yet it only cost time making you uncompetitive.

So much this. After playing the GTS Beta for many nights solid and going back to AC was difficult. I had learned some very bad habits from playing GTS and had to adapt my driving style accordingly. GT games allow you to drive way over the limit too easily, and it's needed to be competitive but it's not a good representation of reality.

 

[Pete05]

Driving a car is not difficult. I was driving long before I got my license and I never found it difficult.
Go-Karts, for example, are not difficult to drive or handle. With a little bit of practice, most people can navigate their way around a track while exercising a proper line. The question is not about doing - it's about excelling.

This isn't limited to driving, either. I love playing music and practice playing various instruments. When I play piano, sure I can play pieces written by Beethoven and Chopin - and to the untrained ear, it'll sound damn good, but when heard next to a true professional, the experience changes. Suddenly you hear the impulses in my piece and me playing starts to sound more like meat and potatoes.

Driving is no different. Much like music, it doesn't ask much of you. I've instructed buyers of high performance cars who had little to no track experience and they could drive their Porsches, Ferraris and McLarens without any issues. But to squeeze every drop of performance out of a vehicle as one does in Motorsport - that is playing Fur Elise the way Beethoven intended.

Driving is easy; Racing is easy; Winning is hard.

^ So much this

Let's take a control class e.g everyone has the same chassis, engine & tyres.
A grid of 24 cars, you've just done what feels like the best lap of your life & you look at the time sheet. 20th position but only one second of pole position.

Now go find those ten tenths you need to start first. The track only has 10 corners so, all you need to do is shave a tenth per corner but, you're already at your limit

Not so easy now is it

 

[NixxxoN]

I agree with Kaz. People think driving a super car or a race car is so damn dificult. It isnt difficult in many cases.

I drove a Ferrari 430 scuderia around a race track and I was astonished at how easy it was to drive....

Another thing is an F1 car though... F1 cars have usually been beasts very hard to handle, and even harder push on the limit, but we are talking about sports cars in general. Most of them arent that hard to drive.

 

[Schmiggz]

So you haven't played Assetto with a controller.

Others have.

Just because you don't do that doesn't mean that everyone should play the same way you do. It's all down to preference.

Of course it is...

 

[PzR Slim]

I drove a Ferrari 430 scuderia around a race track and I was astonished at how easy it was to drive....

How close did you get to setting the lap record at the track for that car?

 

[NixxxoN]

How close did you get to setting the lap record at the track for that car?

Is this supposed to be funny or something?

 

[jm79]

Been racing online with friends since i was 70yrs old on GT and Forza,lots of fun and made good online friends. Now i will be 79 in August and no longer able to keep up as before,but can still put up some good fast lap times. mainly because i don't have other traffic to contend with. I agree wholeheartedly with Kazunori it is not difficult to drive a vehicle so it should not be to hard playing a video game. It sounds like i will be enjoying driving in GT Sport when it is released. ( i speak from experience having been a commercial driver for many years Semis and Coaches ) Might see you on the track.

Hey sorry, but GT Sport is officially only for ages 7-77.

 

[Sharpie]

it is easy I can do it with my eyes closed just did it yesterday it was fantastic

 

[grind mouse]

If you need to know how and if you need correct training and experience then it is equal to difficult for the casual player.Also the casual drivers(in the real world)with the correct training,experience,knowledge can learn to drive faster but not on the limit,only Schumacher and other talented racing drivers can drive the cars on the limit.
The casual player wants to grab the controller and drive from tha very first corner as fast as Schumacher without crash and IMO this is what Kazunori Yamauchi is trying to do with GT Sport.

I think not at all . Kaz tries to explain that for those who are familiar with the real guide (even the one on the limit ) in front of a racing game is often in difficulty, because of course you need to familiarize yourself with the steering wheels of the various games, with GT Sport you should perceive more direct realism , which is not easy, compared to its previous titles.IMO.
Always sorry all for my English.
Here an example.

 

[Lukanyon]

"Driving is easy. That's why we put lots of assists in the game, and some can't even be turned off."

 

[PzR Slim]

Is this supposed to be funny or something?

No it's not. Any car is easy to drive if you only push it to a certain extent. It'll change depending on the car but pushing a car to somewhere in the 90's% of its performance envelope is not difficult. However, when you try and extract the absolute maximum out of the car, as we are all trying to do when we race in game is much harder. That's why I asked if you were getting close to the track record for that car. If you weren't then you weren't pushing the car close to it's maximum and as a result you can't say how easy or difficult it is. The vast majority of us could jump in any car and drive it around town with no issue. Quite a lot of us could jump in any car and push it close to it's limit on a track day. Very few of us could drive any car at it's absolute limit.

That's the point and it's why Kaz's statement doesn't really say anything. I said it up thread but it's worth repeating. What a simulator should be is a simulation of the real world. Sometimes driving in the real world is very easy and sometimes it's very hard. Any game's physics model needs to be able to portray those two extremes and everything in between.

 

[Kazuya720]

Modern GT cars and LMPs are surprisingly easy to drive. While they do require a great amount of talent to get the maximum potential out of them, they will not beat the driver up like the old Group B/Group C/ Group 5 cars of the 70s and 80s. Engine, suspension and tire technology has evolved in a way everything has a much smoother delivery and feel, making it less difficult to get the maximum out of the car. Getting the most out of, say, a Porsche 962 in a game should evidently be harder than doing the same thing in an R18 or 919.

Science, it gets stuff done.

I totally agree with you and Kaz! It is a misbelief, that a "real" sim has to be difficult to be realistic. Actually the most expensive and fast which I drove in real (Porsche 997, Ferrari 360 Modena) were the most easiest and pleseant cars to drive. I guess driving a modern race car with sticky slick tyres is even less complicate. However, what should be hard in both, real and virtuall, should drving a car at the limits for best lap times.

 

[NixxxoN]

No it's not. Any car is easy to drive if you only push it to a certain extent. It'll change depending on the car but pushing a car to somewhere in the 90's% of its performance envelope is not difficult. However, when you try and extract the absolute maximum out of the car, as we are all trying to do when we race in game is much harder. That's why I asked if you were getting close to the track record for that car. If you weren't then you weren't pushing the car close to it's maximum and as a result you can't say how easy or difficult it is. The vast majority of us could jump in any car and drive it around town with no issue. Quite a lot of us could jump in any car and push it close to it's limit on a track day. Very few of us could drive any car at it's absolute limit.

That's the point and it's why Kaz's statement doesn't really say anything. I said it up thread but it's worth repeating. What a simulator should be is a simulation of the real world. Sometimes driving in the real world is very easy and sometimes it's very hard. Any game's physics model needs to be able to portray those two extremes and everything in between.

Of course, and thats exactly the point of kaz and thats why I agree, cars in general should not be hard to drive at reasonable speeds (not slow, not pushing on the limit)
I think it does really say something... A game should not make cars hard to drive even at relatively low speeds.
Thats why I said I was very surprised at how easy was for me to drive the Ferrari. Very firmly planted on the ground, lots of grip, very good braking, very predictable handling, and all that... Of course I was not driving on the limit, but i was not driving slowly at all, I tell you!

I guess there's a myth that supercars are axe murderers in general... but no, mostly those were the 80's porsches and some lambos and thats about it.


On the other hand, what is hard and what is not also depends on the skills of everyone.
I'm not exactly the best videogame sim driver in the world but I think I'm a skilled one, and I have good control of cars in general, and I play with people that even with SRF enabled have problems controlling many cars and they crash often.

 

[Kazuya720]

Here a quote from the german race driver Markus Winkelhock, who droves the Audi R8 LMS Ultra.

"Nicht jeder Marcus ist schnell, dieser Markus schon. Er hat auch einen schnellen Nachnamen: Winkelhock. Das verpflichtet. Er hat im Audi R8 LMS ultra die 24h-Rennen in Spa und am Nürburgring gewonnen. Ich finde, der R8 ist (relativ) einfach zu fahren.

Der andere Markus sagt dazu: "Das Auto ist wirklich einfach zu fahren, besonders dann, wenn es sauber abgestimmt ist. Bis zu 97 oder 98 Prozent sind auch Amateurfahrer damit richtig schnell, manchmal an einem guten Tag so schnell, dass viele fragen, warum die Profis nicht schneller sind."

He basically says the the R8 LMS actually very easy to drive, even for amateurs. So they are also very quick with that car, so othery asked why the need pro drivers.

 

[VBR]

"Driving simulators shouldn't be difficult.". Well there's an over generalization if ever I heard one!

In reality, some cars are easy to drive, & some cars are hard to drive. In fact, things are not black & white, there is a whole range of grey areas when it comes to the difficulty in controling a wide range of cars. Also, some cars that are easy to drive in the dry are hard to drive in the wet. Road conditions affect this as well.

How stupid of Kaz to make a blanket statement like that! Sounds like he's just spewing out a load of spin to try to sell more of his game.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No it's not. Any car is easy to drive if you only push it to a certain extent. It'll change depending on the car but pushing a car to somewhere in the 90's% of its performance envelope is not difficult. However, when you try and extract the absolute maximum out of the car, as we are all trying to do when we race in game is much harder. That's why I asked if you were getting close to the track record for that car. If you weren't then you weren't pushing the car close to it's maximum and as a result you can't say how easy or difficult it is. The vast majority of us could jump in any car and drive it around town with no issue. Quite a lot of us could jump in any car and push it close to it's limit on a track day. Very few of us could drive any car at it's absolute limit.

That's the point and it's why Kaz's statement doesn't really say anything. I said it up thread but it's worth repeating. What a simulator should be is a simulation of the real world. Sometimes driving in the real world is very easy and sometimes it's very hard. Any game's physics model needs to be able to portray those two extremes and everything in between.

Good point and it relates to something else I was going to bring up. I don't have the beta but I did race extensively online in GT5 and GT6 and in my experience, there are very few Gran Turismo players that are anywhere close to the limits when racing. The time trial results in GT5 also bear this out. Look at the spread of times in the top 500 for example. At the Corvette prototype TT at the full Nurb, the gap between 1 and 500 is 13 seconds. The gap to 2500 is a full 20 seconds. 2500 is less than 1/2000 of the player base!! When racing online myself I found similar results. There was almost always a huge spread of qualifying lap times and a huge spread out field at the finish. Most players simply aren't close to the limit of the cars because their skill level prevents them from getting there.

On the other hand, what is hard and what is not also depends on the skills of everyone.
I'm not exactly the best videogame sim driver in the world but I think I'm a skilled one, and I have good control of cars in general, and I play with people that even with SRF enabled have problems controlling many cars and they crash often.

If people have trouble controlling cars with SRF enabled and crash often, does that mean it's not a good simulator or that driving a car at speed is actually pretty difficult?