Kazunori Yamauchi: Driving Simulators Shouldn't be Difficult

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. Imari

    Imari

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    Given the history, it seems like Kaz's job at this stage of the project is to be the marketing guy. Unfortunately, the script he has just isn't that good, and he's not that good at making non-committal but engaging answers on the fly.

    Gran Turismo will still be two thirds of a simulator, because that's what sells. Driving isn't difficult, but driving on the ragged edge is. In real life, people can differentiate because they find death objectionable. But in a video game, either Tommy Needforbrakes is going 10/10ths or he feels like he might as well turn the game off.

    A real simulator teaches you that you can't drive like that in a real race car either. But that's not fun to most people. Most people want to be lied to. They want the game to tell them that they have the skills to fling a hypercar round a race track with a foot to the floor, even if that's impossible.

    Which is why anyone who says sims shouldn't be difficult is full of it. They should, but only in the right places. The greatest sims give you the feedback and cues that you need to progress from tootling around like you do on the public road to fanging it at full chat.

    And as Johnny points out, driving simulations aren't necessarily that difficult, but the vast majority of people are awful, AWFUL drivers.
     
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  2. TVR27

    TVR27 Premium

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    I hope I can turn off TC on my Jaaag! If I can't turn off braking assist I'm going to :censored: throw my PS4 out the window!
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  3. DonZonda

    DonZonda

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    Well there are alot of mixed opinions about aswell as preferences. I for myself can only say that it doesnt have to be super realistic in all aspects. But accessable and well playable. The Physics have to be reasonable for me and I have to understand why certain things happen with the car on the track. and GT always gave that feedback to me. I have unfortnately no space for a proper wheel setup. I used to have a DFGT but sold it due to the fact I couldnt really use it with a proper set up. So currently I am forced to the DS4. And no other racer on PS4 can give me the control over the car as GT. I also own games such as Project Cars. But I dont play it alot since I dont have proper control over my car and the weird oversteering which occurs sometimes and isn't catchable at all with a controller at least turns me off alot aswell. I also own Forza 5 and 6. While forza 5 had the same problem such as Project Cars with the weird none catchable oversteer It put me off alot. Forza 6 fixed that at least and the controls are also very well not as good as in GT in my opinion.

    So handling and control wise GT Sport is my fav so far. I always have full control and instant respons from the analog stick that I can also drive on the limits. Other sim racers didn't give me that feeling of control yet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  4. ZEROTHEKNIGHT

    ZEROTHEKNIGHT

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    Based on what i read so far from the posts :
    1- Opinions VS Facts.
    2- Preferrences VS The should be.
    3- Coating Kaz words with salt VS Those in agreement with Kaz.

    The game is still in developmnent - i just hope the final game release will be good enough to end those endless arguments.

    @DonZonda
    Almost the same start as me XD
     
  5. Lukanyon

    Lukanyon

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    I hope they don't force us to use assists like they did with SRF in some GT6 events.
     
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  6. MisterOne77

    MisterOne77

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    My question is, what is GT Sport suppose to be at the moment? Is it suppose a top-class simulator like you mates say it should be, or an realistic enough racing game that's open to the whole family like it has bee advertised to be? I personally think it should be open, easy going yet realistic like GT has always been been. But I'm just one out of millions, so my opinion doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
     
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  7. AudiMan2011

    AudiMan2011 Contributing Writer

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    I'm not sure even the game itself knows what it's trying to be. Features like DR/SR, BOP'd classes, the FIA championships and a heavy focus on eSports would tend to suggest a hardcore sim like iRacing, but the PR is advertising it as accessible for everyone.
     
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  8. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    "Realistic enough" is probably a good description to me. To me it means realistic enough to fool many casual fans and drivers that they are indeed much better at racing and driving fast than they really are and the car behaviour appears real. At the same time not convincing enough to fool the hardcore sim racers that have a good grip on real life physics behaviour and are at least reasonably familiar with the nitty gritty details of of tire modeling, weight transfer etc. None of which has anything to do with how much fun the game is because that's individual preference all the way.
     
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  9. mrPetros

    mrPetros

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    Initially I thougt I was watching the next episode of "gamer yells at game for being game",
    but now I understand what some are implying\saying, that this (correct IMO) statement maybe is nothing but a pre-cover PR statement for lack of features a simulation should have? Things like damage calculation for example, or not being able to overdrive your way to win.

    Is this the case?
     
  10. Earth

    Earth

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    At 5:50 in this video, the guy says the 2016 R18 is easy to drive.

     
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  11. mastretta_mx

    mastretta_mx

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    Yes, I think in the end Kaz is right in the Physics aspect but what make a difference is the concentration and skills of the drivers on unexpected situations or to take the car beyond the limits, that I think it is completelly different to have cars getting out of control at 30 kilometers per hour (I am seeing at you SMS hahahah, I hope you have fixed that for Project cars 2 :p)
     
  12. TheCrazySwede

    TheCrazySwede

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    The same can be said with pretty much anything. Squatting over 500lbs isn't hard, once you're strong enough. Hitting a home run with a baseball traveling towards you at 100 MPH isn't hard, once you know how. Finding a cure for cancer and HIV isn't hard, once you know how.

    See the problem with that logic?

    I've read a lot of replies in this thread of people saying "Well, according to this and that race car driver, driving a race car isn't hard." While I can't speak in their behalf, I've said similar things about competing in a Porsche 911 GT3.

    If the car is difficult to drive, your setup is wrong. I don't mean that in a sense where "If it requires a lot of talent, then something is wrong," not at all. What I mean is that the car is suppose to work in your favor, not against it. If your race car is difficult to handle (remember handling and grip are not the same) then something has to be changed. This has nothing to do with actually pushing a car to its limits and pushing beyond your own psychological and physical limits as a driver.

    I have never, not even once, never felt like I could take a moment to 'ease up' when racing if I wanted to win. Every fraction of a second, from short stint historic events to long endurance races, was spent tactically squeezing every drop of performance I could from both myself and the car. No matter how good you are, this is never easy. Fear is a huge part of it, yes, but it's a tiny fraction compared to another factor: talent. Pushing yourself to the limit is a far greater feat than pushing a car.

    Some cars are relatively difficult to drive, even without pushing them to their limits. I've gone sideways in a Toyota MR2 and a Lancia Stratos due to a snap lift-off oversteer at (relatively) slow speeds. My professional career has also allowed me to drive various Porsche's throughout the years and the old turbo monsters are not easy to drive by any means, even if you're far below the 'limit'. They require an immense amount of concentration and I wouldn't recommend them for novice drivers. One of my students once totaled his Dodge Viper on Laguna Seca cause that thing is just a PITA to drive and bites back about as much as the venomous snake it was named after.

    I think Kaz's words got lost in translation. I can understand that driving a car in a simulator shouldn't be any more difficult than driving it in real life. Take me as an example; I've done very well in my Motorsport career, but I absolutely suck at driving games compared to some more serious 'sim racers' out there. One of my best friends has multiple world records in games like GT, AC and pCars and he's never even driven on a race track before. In the games, he schools me every day, all day. Why? Because the game, to me, is really difficult. I'm not used to it, at all.

    That's, what I think, Kaz was trying to say. Driving in GT shouldn't (in theory) be any harder than driving in real life. If you can push a car to its limits IRL, then you should be able to do it in GT.
     
  13. azeeza

    azeeza

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    I love with just one sentence, you imagine all his meaning
     
  14. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Exactly. Racing at the limit, in real life and in a game, is relatively easy once you know how. I'm pretty sure Vettel and Hamilton, when they aren't on the verge of fisticuffs:sly:, are pretty comfortable going round at 99.5% without too much difficulty. The true limits of a car though are actually very hard to reach for all but the best drivers. It's relatively easy to run around the track at 90-95% in modern cars in any racing game. It's much more difficult in accurately modeled older cars due to the skill level required. It's that last few % that are hard to find and that last 1 or 2% even moreso, in all cars. Even in Gran Turismo it's very difficult to get to that elite level that operates at in the last couple of % on any given track. But, in Gran Turismo, as in other games, it's a skill gap, not due to how difficult, or friendly, the physics are.
     
  15. mirial

    mirial

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    Where the law of diminishing returns applies very much. Driving is also a duality with car setup as well where both capitalise from each other and your driving world opens up fresh opportunities to the point where not only are you doing things better, but doing something different to the competition as well. We see this often with the very fastest drivers in F1, particularly with Hamilton.

    One of the limiting factors with many that play GT is their car setups very much limit what they can achieve, and usually stay in a comfort zone with a safe setup that is too forgiving, or has too much understeer, or both. But coming out of a comfort zone to find a new level of speed can take a hell of a lot of practice and work.

    I've always maintained the whole process of playing GT from the beginning is geared towards accommodating more or less anyone, but it doesn't address the problem of getting players into the right habits from day one....which is why I think many don't get to fulfil their full potential if they are looking to be very competitive.

    I notice that many use chase view with GT...again this doesn't help at all with anyone ever looking to get to the maximum because at best, the yaw response is dulled by being so far from the road and at worst, you're not able to anticipate or react to something unforeseen because many get used to watching the car. I appreciate there are some that can make the chase view work very well, but I think they must be reliant on a very well balanced car at least.
     
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  16. mrPetros

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    Dirt is broken as **** though on this. I saw a video from the no1 player in hardcore leaderboards proving that in casual mode he could complete the same event, with a fraction of effort, and get 10 seconds lower time overall, getting no1in casual too on the way.

    Sometimes an option might look perfect on paper, but break the game on implementation.
     
  17. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    Oh, so it's not the game, but the drivers... Many just don't have the skill to play a sim racing game properly, am I right? Well here's something to think about : What if Kaz wanted to change the way we perceive racing sims? Is his commentary correct? What does he really want to do with his game?

    He has been babying it his whole life, he ought to do something which will revolutionise the way we play. Also, did I mention that his comment is nothing more than opinion? Truth be told, he's never driven a Group C monster or a Formula 1 car so his perspective would be way different to someone like Niki Lauda, Andy Wallace, Hans Stuck and Michael Schumacher - people who have had to handle beasts of the track.
     
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  18. Imari

    Imari

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    On the other hand, there's only so much interpretation of reality that one can do while still retaining some actual attachment to that reality. Maybe it's not possible to revolutionise the way to play a racing simulator to the extent that it will be as popular as GTA V or Minecraft. Maybe it's just a niche genre.

    Still, regardless of what you might say about the game I hardly think it's inaccurate to say that most people suck hard at driving games. Most people suck hard at every game, but the skill floor for racing games is reasonably high. At least if you expect people to be moderately quick and clean, which is what most people seem to expect of themselves.

    Why are you getting mad? Did I say or imply that Kaz's comment wasn't opinion? I'm just discussing his opinion and why it's wrong, if that's OK with you.

    If we're going for artistic interpretations of how real cars drive, then I'm sure everyone would have a different take. But that's not a simulator. A simulator matches reality, not what's inside your head. It's the difference between an action movie and a documentary. One can have an incredibly realistic action movie, but it's still madey uppey.

    He hesitates to say, but easy to drive. So clearly, there's some reservation there. Probably comes along with the fact that he's an accomplished racer himself, and while he may have found it remarkably easy to drive for what it is, that doesn't mean that it's easy for Joe Bloggs to jump into it and go ten tenths.

    We all know that some race cars are easier to drive than others. But that's really more along the lines of "how likely am I to die from getting it wrong?" In something like the R18, not at all, apparently. In something like a Yellowbird, almost certainly. But that doesn't change that going fast is an entirely different skill from pushing the pedals and turning the steering wheel. Any monkey can drive a car. Driving a car quickly is a relatively rare skill, and doing it without crashing into all and sundry is even rarer.
     
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  19. NixxxoN

    NixxxoN (Banned)

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    I'm sure Kaz doesnt necessarily talk only about the handling of cars but the game in general.
    He thinks simulators shouldn't have overcomplicated settings or procedures like in some of the hardcore sims so you need to have an engineering degree or something.
    He believes simulators should be user friendly so some people dont have a headache by trying to play it.
     
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  20. XxHighWayStarXx

    XxHighWayStarXx

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    But whose perception of reality does a simulator match ? Everyone perceives reality in their own & individual way. There is no such thing as one perception to rule them all.
    Sure, staple physics such as up, down,left and right, backwards and forwards etc are fairly uniform in how they're perceived,
    but particular things like tyre slippage, throttle response, brake feel, body roll, g-forces, steering sense, suspension feel etc etc are all absorbed and felt through our own personal filters of our perception.
    Even professional race drivers do not all perceive reality the same, that's why they have their cars set up specifically to suit their own feel which stem from their unique perceptions.
    Otherwise every driver would have exactly the same set up because they would all feel things the same as each other.
    So when we talk about simulators or simulation, whose perception is deemed THE ONE it will be based on, or programmed to mimic ??
    There will never be unity when it comes to things such as whether or not a racing game "looks" real or whether a car handles "authentically" because everyone's idea of what is real or authentic will differ.
    And as the great majority of us have no idea what a F1 car feels like, or an IndyCar, or a V8/V6 Touring Car, then we have no personal reference point to gauge
    whether the game is replicating our sense of reality or not.
    I think the main thing is as long as we have the tools in the game to tweak and mold the programme's illusion to suit our preferred sense of illusion then we should all be relatively happy.
     
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  21. Mr Tree

    Mr Tree

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    Sorry this might come over harsh but what you describe above is completely wrong. You show a complete lack of understanding of physics and because of that your entire conclusion on the perception of it is a very uninformed mess of words that holds zero logic.
    Now I understand where it comes from there is a lot of misinformation out there lately so please let me explain why your idea's are factually wrong.


    Physics is physics, only one kind of physical engine will represent the real world perfectly (and we can't build models as complex, we don't even posses every model of our universe). You seem to think that we all perceive this diffrent and thus it is diffrent. Which would be very weird. In your example it means tireslippage induced in exactly the same circumstances would be diffrent because both feel diffrent. This is textbook insanity according to Einstein "insanity is doing the same experiment over and over and expecting different results.". You see the physics are the same it's the perception that changes.
    Now diffrent setups come from diffrent drivingstyles. And yes no one drives the same. To live up to that reality they tweak their cars to take more advantage of their personal strengths and hide a but of their weaknesses.

    So if one would make a physics model that represents real life perfectly both people would still get the same feeling/perception in game as they would in real life.

    So yes there is only one physics model to rule them all and that's real life.

    To all people out there stop believing all this is some kind of illusion stop believing there are diffrent realities. There is only one reality and that is reality. Now what you do have is diffrent perceptions of reality, yet this still means there is only one true reality.

    An example (overly simplified as better examples would reach to far for most to grasp): if you have a door and you measure it's width you'll measure the shortest span you can. This is ho, we defined width a'd how most people perceive it. Now take someone who measures in a wrong way. He'll perceive to measure a wider door. But when push comes to shove his perception is wrong! Reality didn't suddenly change his perception of it changed due to a measuring mistake. In the same way our senses are imperfect and we make 'measuring mistakes' when perceiving how a car drives.

    If I follow your logic for some people the earth is really flat. This untrue wheter they beleive it and it is based on a wrong perception. A peeception you can have with our current round earth.
     
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  22. mrPetros

    mrPetros

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    I give you 10/10 for your definition of boderline insanity. great post.
     
  23. Mr Tree

    Mr Tree

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    That actually is an Einstein qoute :D
     
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  24. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    By definition, when you simulate something you try to copy how it works as closely as possible. If an Audi R18 has a bump stop, rebound and tire pressure adjustments, for example, and a game chooses not to model those things, it's less of a simulator than a game that does.
     
  25. clos2727

    clos2727

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    I have always said this. driving in a simulator should not be harder than driving in real life. the common misconception is that driving a car and having the skills to race go hand in hand. when in reality it doesnt. '

    anyone can drive a race car in real life, and drive said car faster than they have ever driven. certainly not faster than a skilled racer and definitely not quicker. it takes experience to get to this level. you get the point.

    driving a car in the real world is the easy part. learning to push your car and keep it from its limits is what skilled racers do. knowledge of the track, gear selection, trail braking ect. this is what differentiates you from a non racer.

    So im with KAZ on this one, as i have had that same view point about Sim racing before his statement.

    the problem i had with early beta version of Gran Turismo Sport is that it hindered skilled drivers so that everyone can be competitive. for example. shifting a gate shifter was limited and delayed, so as not to have an advantage over someone with auto transmission. trust me, i slammed them for this on the beta forum site. Stating " no one shifts that slow in a real car" and " dont limit my skills because some poor chap can use a manual gearbox. needless to say it got a bunch of up votes and with the recent GTS Beta version it has been addressed. now you can speed shift just like in real life. now they just need to address the clutch issue.

    i have no problem with a racing simulator being accessible for the masses.( just like real racing is) but dont limit the skills of the hardcore sim racer to please them. we are good because we put in the time to be good. and if they expect to compete then they have to put in the time as well.

    the hardcore racers are the only ones who will continue to play the game way past its prime. albeit, if its good.
     
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  26. Pillo-san

    Pillo-san

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    Driving is not hard, even on track it is not hard. Only when something unexpeced happens does it turn out to be "hard"

    But to be honest, some of the Simulators are a bit strange. Some times you have no grip when it is a warm day and you are traveling at 50kpm. So does it mean that they are "simulating" that there is something odd on the track or what when that happens? :p

    I agree with Kaz, driving simulators should not be difficult. Do any of you think that a lmp car for a endurance racing is a pig to drive?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  27. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    With limited vision and sensation it's not hard to make steering and other inputs in a simulator that cause a car to do what appear to be unpredictable things, but might be closely following real life physics. I can't turn a wheel 1080 degrees in a tenth of a second or two in real life but I can in a game using a controller. What would happen in real life if you had the front tires loaded up from braking and immediately went to full lock one way or the other? Even the best simulators can't prevent users from making inputs that you wouldn't make in a real car and sometimes the reactions appear unusual when in fact they aren't.
     
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  28. Pillo-san

    Pillo-san

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    I am of course talking from a wheel users experience with a game. Mostly right now how AC is :p
    But yeah over all those pad movements/ steering corrections in a "sim"game are for me, personally speaking so immersive breaking. How can a game be called a sim if the car behaving like that at high speeds without making a incredible flip or something. :p

    But yeah, the lack of input/immersion like you would get in a real car with real forces affecting your senses play a big role.
     
  29. bokimoto

    bokimoto

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    "Driving a simulator" should not be easy.

    Driving a "simulator" should require multi-tasking, precision, judgement, reflexes, stamina, attention to detail, diligent practice, and some other stuff.
     
  30. Johnnypenso

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    It's not different for wheel users either. When you are in a real car you have much more sensory input than you do in a game. Most importantly you have a "seat of the pants" feel about driving, that tells you what is happening with the car. An experienced driver can tell, just from the sensations coming through his butt, whether the car is about to lose traction for example. He will then instinctively adjust his inputs to compensate. This sensation is not available to wheel drivers other than through an extremely high end simulator and even then it's simulated through a rumble or slight movement, not a true representation of real life movement. So in a game, and with a wheel, when you are on the edge of control you can still make unrealistic or unnatural movements that can cause you car to do what appear to be unnatural things.

    My point is, in order to determine whether wonky things are happening with any physics engine, you first need to understand the exact inputs you are making, where the weight is on the car, and then determine what would happen in real life in the same situation. It's easy to make a glib response about game physics but much harder to actually find out the truth of what is going on without delving deep into game and real life physics principles.
     
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