La Sarthe ruined by new penalty areas

[research]

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Blood*Specter wins.



lol

 

[Famine]

The timing of this post immediately after one that explains quite bluntly why it isn't cheating is uncanny.

The problem is that... it is.

The track is defined in all levels of motorsports (the FIA sporting code) as being the area bounded by the two solid white lines. Leaving the track is defined in all levels of motorsports as being any occasion when all four wheels of the car leave the confines of the two solid white lines. Kerbs are only part of the track if they are between the two solid white lines. If they are not, you may drive over them so long as you do not put the whole of your car (as generally defined by the wheelbase/track footprint) beyond a solid white line.

We've been brought up on a diet of watching F1 drivers pushing the boundaries of what's legal and what isn't. In fact they even run their own set of discretionary definitions in F1 (a great one is the blue flag meaning you must get out of the way of traffic about to lap (to be penalised if you pass three of them) you, whereas in all other levels it is information that faster cars are approaching and not an instruction) including one whereby cars may leave the confines of the white lines if they're not shortening the track. This is why we get to see crap like Vettel driving across the Melbourne car park fully ten yards away from the circuit to pass Button (2011), everyone running wide at La Source (every year), Kimi Raikkonen driving around the outside of Hamilton at Pouhon (2008), but it simply isn't allowed at any other level.


The act of leaving the confines of the white lines is eligible for a penalty according to the FIA sporting code. Generally speaking if the driver gains no advantage (shortening the track, opening the corner to make it faster [except in F1], gaining position or gaining qualifying position) it is not something the stewards act on, but it still remains a punishable offence, even if it isn't necessarily always punished (typically it's ignored at the stewards' discretion in endurance and sports car racing - the key is, usually, gaining an advantage). The white lines and nothing else (not rubber, not rumble strips or kerbs, not astroturf, not runoff, not fruity-coloured tarmac) mark the boundaries of the track.

Now, GT can be a little overzealous for it. I've received some unusual penalties (laptime invalidation) practicing the Nuerburgring V Spec course for the N4 race, but they have always been due to having all four wheels past one of the solid white lines. The issue is that GT cannot determine what "gaining an advantage" is and so it can only act according to known track boundaries.

Keep at least two wheels between the solid white lines and you'll never get a penalty for leaving the track. The same applies in real life too - though in real life, leaving the white lines isn't automatically a penalty, whereas in GT5 it may be.

 

[Tornado]

I'm pretty sure you can hit the curbs in that corner without driving completely inside the white line, and the AI that PD implemented into the game does it all the time.

 

[esoxhntr]

It's about time. I dreaded racing La Sarthe online due to all the corner cutting that goes on.

 

[research]

I don't think anybody here was trying to say that FOUR wheels over the white line, or on the curbs, is NOT cheating.

The OP was talking about TWO wheels clipping the curb, no?


Four wheels over the line is definitely a blatant violation. Two? Legal.

The problem is that... it is.

That rubber in the photo is surely from the two inside, legal, tires. All day long. So.... it isn't.

 

[Zenith]

Absolute RUINED. God the track is unplayable! When will the destruction end?

...

Change your lines a bit until an equilibrium is found. You might get flagged in real racing for intentionally putting two wheels over, especially if it's a repeat offense. Four wheels is illegal. End of story.

 

[Famine]

I'm pretty sure you can hit the curbs in that corner without driving completely inside the white line, and the AI that PD implemented into the game does it all the time.

Probably, but then the AI can drive a Ford RS200 in the British Lightweights. Or, in the entire of GT5 Prologue, cut corners at will and ram you unpenalised. And it's a similar tale in GT4. And in GT3. And in GT2. And probably GT1, if anyone can remember that far back.

I don't think anybody here was trying to say that FOUR wheels over the white line, or on the curbs, is NOT cheating.

The OP was talking about TWO wheels clipping the curb, no?

The kerb is irrelevant. If you're four wheels inside the white line to get two wheels on the kerb, you're outside the boundaries of the track. The kerb is not part of the track unless it's within the white lines.

That rubber in the photo is surely from the two inside, legal, tires. All day long. So.... it isn't.

Did you click it the first time? Have a look at some of the other photos from the same race. Not that I'm sure what this has to do with the game, mind...

By definition, cheating is breaking the rules and punishment is the result of being caught. If you're being punished by way of penalty you have been caught cheating. If you're not being punished by way of penalty, you haven't been caught cheating but that doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't been cheating.


Ultimately, if you don't leave the white lines you won't be penalised for leaving the white lines. It's pretty much that simple. The OP also mentions hitting cones - that's been a penalty in any GT game I've ever played...

 

[research]

no, I meant this photo

http://v8.cache5.c.bigcache.googleap...rect_counter=2

^^ this is the one you were referring to in your first post, saying 'it is' cheating. I claim that this rubber was laid down by the two legal tires clipping inside the white lines.



Your photo of the LMP car is definitely cheating, for sure. Hitting cones is also a no-go. We are in agreement there.

 

[Famine]

no, I meant this photo

^^ this is the one you were referring to in your first post, saying 'it is' cheating. I claim that this rubber was laid down by the two legal tires clipping inside the white lines.

I know. The photo I provided of the LMP1 car - and the several other photos on that page of other LMP1 and LMP2 cars doing exactly the same - is a counter to that point. Clearly that car is running his two outside tyres on the same line you claim two inside tyres go in the earlier shot. Incidentally, it's unloaded outside tyres that are more likely to leave rubber (outside of F1, where the tyres are a major part of the suspension).

Of course, the fact he - and others - go unpunished is evidence that they haven't been caught cheating and that GT5 is overzealous but again, bluntly, not being caught cheating is not the same thing as not cheating and the FIA sporting code is quite clear on its definitions of track boundaries. It's simply the case that the stewards chose not to act as there was no advantage they perceived - GT5 is not capable of making a call on what an advantage is.

 

[SavageEvil]

Famine is trying to say if I may sir, GT5 rules do not have human discernment as to ascertain what is gaining an advantage and therefore it won't have a grey area, it's all black and white to the rules system. Although sometimes there are some iffy calls, especially on the Nur but then again we have to watch to see if our cars do actually violate crossing the track boundaries thus invoking the penalty.

I don't care too much for the corner penalties but it's the car collision penalties that make me furious, they make no sense at all. They should be removed completely as it many times faults you for getting rear ended at times, how bogus is that and sometimes someone will sideswipe you and cause you to get a penalty while they race off scott free. Let's not forget that GT5 need to change the way it calculates speed, because I've had the courtesy of spinning out into the grass and get a penalty when there was absolutely no advantage gained whatsoever. Hope they keep working on it and put some grey areas on tracks that actually have grey areas for discernment of actual corner cutting and just trying to stay competitive by not going off track purposely.

 

[TeamOrecaViper]

However since the 2.0 update, the areas considered penalty areas have changed dramatically.

VERY GOOD ! stay on track ! stupid safety asfalt in corners...

The perfect thing would be le sarthe 2005 with weather/time change.
Grass in the corners is the way it should be.

 

[grog]

I'm quite happy with the changes. Although I race without the penaltys turned on mostly.

I've had a couple races with some friends who are really honest clean racers. But all of them would blatantly cut corners at monza simply due to the fact that there were no penalty previously. I even pressed them on the subject asking why did you guys cut those corners. Their responses were "because everyone was doing it" and there was no penalty so therefore its not really cutting the corner.


So now that penalties are more pevelant/consistant (note i'm not implying they're all fair) we should expect more and more people to pick up on the pattern and the confusion should dissipate.

At the end of the day everyone (in a room with penalties on) has to deal with these equally, so it not as if someone has an advantage over anybody else.

 

[research]

At the end of the day everyone (in a room with penalties on) has to deal with these equally, so it not as if someone has an advantage over anybody else.

Unless you are one of the dillholes who has no qualms about pushing people into the penalty zones.

👎

 

[Humphrey]

Man, people like to over react.... I'm one of the fairest racers you'll meet online, I'm not looking for ways to cheat - I've never duped a car, I've taken every prize from a ticket no matter how miserable it was, or glitched through a wall to gain a million quid in 20 minutes.

When you've learnt a track over the last year, for the boundaries to be changed quite dramatically has simply has buggered me up. I know have to get back and learn where the white lines are, and avoid where the boundaries once where, and stop using curbs, but thought I'd air my gripe to the community.

I completely agree that the corner cutting needed to be fixed at La Sarthe, and thankfully it has been sorted on the obvious areas that were being abused.

But to alter areas that previously were not penalised, and would in real racing be considered fair game (FIA rules or other), ie curbs, which should unbalance the car (doesn't do that enough on GT5 - rumble strips on Monza chicane as an example, feel around 2mm high), if you choose to use curbs to 'possibly' gain an advantage we should be given the choice, or 'possibly' (in my case) spin off in a cloud of dust and grass cuttings screaming fuuuuu....

Thanks to those who concur with me, it's nice not to be lynched by everyone.

I just wish on updates PD would explain all of the changes, not just helmet improvements, and force feedback etc. Changing boundaries on a track effects the experience, it would have been nice to get an idea of these mods.

Peace.

 

[grog]

I just wish on updates PD would explain all of the changes, not just helmet improvements, and force feedback etc. Changing boundaries on a track effects the experience, it would have been nice to get an idea of these mods.

Peace.

Yeah that would be nice. On the last update notice they listed 20 or 30 changes and then it seemed like they just got tired of listing all the flaws and the ended the list with a super vague "and various other changes"; which likey included the penalty system changes.

 

[research]

LOL!! you guys are so right on that.

 

[Ardius]

I don't understand penalties in areas where going outside of the racing line gives no advantage. The first hairpin at Spa for example. If you brake too late and go into the run-off, you get penalised. Completely doesn't make sense as you've already cost yourself time by stuffing up...

You can gain a massive advantage over those who don't miss their braking point though. Not to mention its an advantage to run out onto that run-off at the start of races and overtake people that are bunched up after turn 1.

You only have to watch the real races at Spa to see how that run-off can be used as an advantage, particularly at the start of a race.

Besides, once you have worked out your braking point for turn 1 in whatever car you are driving, you really shouldn't be making the same mistake more than twice. Its not a tricky corner at all.

 

[Bushby_23]

Penalties for this that clearly cut corners are fine with me. However, when we get to cutting a chicane at an ungodly 20km/h because we outbraked ourselves and are slapped with a 20 second penalty, then there's an issue.

 

[SnakeEyes427]

So your mad becuse it will make you a better driver. Ok,

Sarthe is one of my favorite tracks. So I found this quick and had to reajust my line That is all. Maybe a .300 second added to my laps too run them clean.

Maybe it just me but I'm fine we it. Now getting a red time for this was uncalled for.

 

[sdf]

The new penalty system in general but especially in La Sarthe is perfect, actually it made la sarthe an actual track.
Were before everyone was cutting every bloody corner. there were no slow chicanes before the update everything was straight.

One thing left though (at least for the track penalties ), PD must do something about the last chicane in tracks like Trial mountain, Spa, La Sarthe.....make the car break harder after the penalty? add a tyre wall like suzuka? i dont know, but they really must do something about that.

 

[Seismica]

Whilst I agree that changes need to be made on certain tracks, like Monza (So many people cut the chicanes in the Vettel challenge to gold) and Le Sarthe, I do not believe that it should be so strict. The kerbs should be defined as part of the track, especially where the kerbs are quite wide or the white line is a distance away from them.

Maybe they should start giving penalties for the yellow painted areas either side of the long straight at Trial Mountain, as these areas are outside of the white lines.

 

[White & Nerdy]

The penalties are a bit much on a lot of tracks, Kart Space for one. GTP rules say two off is fair play, Kart Space penalties say if even one wheel just barely breaks out of the painted area of the curb, your lap is toast! And that's on the few curbs that don't spin you anyway. Seriously annoying!

Also, I seem to remember some kind of GTP ruleset that treated the outside edge of the curbs, not the white line, as the track boundary, but maybe that ended with the GT4/5P time trial era...

 

[White & Nerdy]

Also, the yellow areas at Trial Mountain: if there's an exception to the rule, those are it. As I recall, even the AI uses them. The "groove" goes across them, even.

Does anyone have an official word on them anyway?

 

[Sohvakettu]

On Trial mountain I just observe what other people are doing. I can drive it both within the white lines or using the yellow lined area if that is deemed to be a part of the track by participants. No official word on those I think...

Again: Kerbs should be defined as part of the track only when within the track boundaries. I think their main mission is to be a visual reference for drivers and protect the edge of track from wear caused by high speed driving close to the edge of the track. They aren't really meant to be part of the actual track itself.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

1. I don't think you can really complain about getting a penalty for hitting the green "bollards" on the entry to Ford chicane- clearly if someone has put bollards there they don't want you driving through it.
2. As has already been stated don't use penalties. If these people you race with really are decent you don't need to use penalties to stop short cutters.
3. If you need to use more than the track's width to overtake someone then you shouldn't be making the overtake.
4. If you really can't live with the penalties use "Circuit de la Sarthe 2005"- if you go wide here you don't get a penalty just a dunking in the gravel trap.
5. Yeah sure someone shoves you wide giving you a penalty or spinning you or whatever, yeah you have a right to be angry but surely the self-satisfaction as you quickly reel the guy back in and make a clean, fair pass is much more satisfying than an outright win you may or may not have had.

 

[FyreandIce]

Personally I cant stand the penalty system as it is in GT5 and to hear what you guys have been saying with the new system at La Sarthe would ruin it. I think there are more clever and "in the sport of racing" ways to do things. Take Turn10's implementation for dealing with blatant cheaters:



This was against the CPU. I was hungry SO VERY hungry to win that race and after battling with the AI and finally seeing victory I went to deep into the curb where they have "speed bumps" for lack of a better turn. You hit these things wrong and it will send your car. But it isn't an "instant" wreck. You see yourself headed towards them you can roll over them but you have to break down your speed, and try to gently coast over them. These are strategically placed all over the course. This, of course, will cost you time in a race but it's at least in the spirit of racing. Not where you engine acts like it just got some bad gas. There still is enough space to put two on the curb but getting thirsty about it like I did will ruin your day.

PD needs to implement something like this. I wouldn't mind a simple "stop and go" or add time to my end race time. Anything but knocking out 4 cylinders in my car for 20 seconds.

Those bumps are there are the real Le Sarthe 👍

T10 just put them to good use.

 

[terrible1fi]

you people are crybabies and idiots at the same time.

La source, (spa 1st corner) can easily be taken faster if you widen the turn radius past the lines of the track. Thats why the penalties are there, keep ur ass on the track.

As for le mans, too many assholes dive into the first chicane and trail brake/slide through it an f*@% up everyone elses race who doesnt drive like a complete douchbag.

That was the best part of the update, fixing the damn track cutting spots.

+ 1

 

[Humphrey]

1. I don't think you can really complain about getting a penalty for hitting the green "bollards" on the entry to Ford chicane- clearly if someone has put bollards there they don't want you driving through it.
2. As has already been stated don't use penalties. If these people you race with really are decent you don't need to use penalties to stop short cutters.
3. If you need to use more than the track's width to overtake someone then you shouldn't be making the overtake.

@1 - This isn't a biggy, I was just saying how if you two wheel the curb you may hit the bollards, a penalty there is fine, but two wheeling without hitting the bollards is a tad harsh.
@2 - Yeah our gang are pretty good, but it's an open lobby, cos you don't know who may join, the next ultimate challenger, or a big cheating noob, so the host keeps penalties on.
@3 - sometimes neither car (sometimes 3 abreast down the straights of La Sarthe) will yield and rightly so if it's a fair fight. Makes this extremely fun & tight racing.

I just have to change my habits and lines on La Sarthe, Spa has some pretty harsh penalties and I've taken to them like a duck to water, it's just the sudden change in a well known track 10 months later has jiggled my giblets without any notification.

Must try harder.

 

[Krizzay]

The penalties are a bit much on a lot of tracks, Kart Space for one. GTP rules say two off is fair play, Kart Space penalties say if even one wheel just barely breaks out of the painted area of the curb, your lap is toast! And that's on the few curbs that don't spin you anyway. Seriously annoying!

Also, I seem to remember some kind of GTP ruleset that treated the outside edge of the curbs, not the white line, as the track boundary, but maybe that ended with the GT4/5P time trial era...

Two off is a broken exhaust or oil pan if you have bad luck.

 

[Exorcet]

Yeah our gang are pretty good, but it's an open lobby, cos you don't know who may join, the next ultimate challenger, or a big cheating noob, so the host keeps penalties on.

Even then I'd take them off. I've never used penalties, they don't add anything useful as far as I'm concerned.

Someone corner cuts, kick
Someone rams (on purpose), kick

And you probably won't need to do it that often, especially if you outline that cutting won't be tolerated, either through voice or text chat.

I do agree that lack of notification was a bad move. Actually, PD should let you see a map of the track with penalty areas marked clearly before a race. Perhaps, even let the host choose the boundaries.