Lack of grid starts

[Vitilizer]

Im sure this has been posted before but i havent seen it. Im up to the international B races and have only experienced grid starts on the karting races. These rolling starts make the races feel like time trials with obstacles. I feel like having the option to do a grid start would make the game so much more enjoyable. I mean they have the option when your doing an arcade race, so why not in career?

 

[Shirrako]

Try the Red Bull X2014 Junior Races.

 

[gibo155]

Grid starts would be more fun rather the chase the rabbit rolling starts

However i fear with the AI been as bad as it is you would be in 1st place probably after the first corner you come to, PD probably realised this thts why the races are spreadout with rolling starts.

 

[SeaNorris]

Not if the Kart races are to go off, every one of those I did the AI at the front, despite us all being in equal Karts were putting seconds on me for the first lap or so before magically becoming slow as hell and easy to pass.

Even if it is down to the AI, give us the choice, chasing down a set of cars where only the first one is 'somewhat' competitive from time to time is utterly tedious and unrealistic. At least a grid start is more the norm, qualifying would be nice to add in also.

 

[gambleboyen]

some say the rolling starts are down to processing limitations, but surely it should be possible with standing starts when the grid is only six cars

 

[SeaNorris]

Surely the online portion of the game has standing starts anyway as do the Kart races offline.

 

[bodger]

some say the rolling starts are down to processing limitations, but surely it should be possible with standing starts when the grid is only six cars

Over the last few weeks of playing, I am pretty much convinced that the only reason for the fact the vast majority of the fact career races are rolling starts, is that it is a design decision:

1. It can't be a framerate thing because at the beginning of the race, on the track screen, it shows the full grid of cars being worked on by mechanics, and at times, the whole grid is in shot, with a silky smooth framerate.

2. Certain mission races have the AI in absolutey storming form. Particularly on the one to one races, where the opposing car is right on your tail, passing on the inside lines, cutting you up etc.

Given that the AI can be competitive, and the framerates are fine, this seems to be an odd design decision, where PD think a grid start is less fun than passing the entire field from the back.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a few rolling starts in the early stages of career, but then by the time you get to the international races, you want grid starts, even with false start checks...

 

[sorg]

I'm sure processing power has nothing to do with rolling starts. It's because PDI cannot deliver competitive AI. AI in GT6 lack of individuality and "real randomness". PDI cannot simulate first turn, i believe. You can overtake all AI in one turn and this will destroy competition at beginning, while rolling starts will keep competition from one side and won't look like "mission impossible" from other side (if AI will simply as strong as possible).
Actually, AI in GT6 are already cheating. In mono-competitions it's easy to notice how AI are faster on straights than me. Making standing starts will require AI to cheat even more with current AI model. And i don't agree this.

 

[bodger]

I'm sure processing power has nothing to do with rolling starts. It's because PDI cannot deliver competitive AI. AI in GT6 lack of individuality and "real randomness". PDI cannot simulate first turn, i believe. You can overtake all AI in one turn and this will destroy competition at beginning, while rolling starts will keep competition from one side and won't look like "mission impossible" from other side (if AI will simply as strong as possible).
Actually, AI in GT6 are already cheating. In mono-competitions it's easy to notice how AI are faster on straights than me. Making standing starts will require AI to cheat even more with current AI model. And i don't agree this.

And yet, on the one to one mission races they are competitive and do turn in quickly. See the Lamborghini Mirua Mission race at brands hatch for an example...

 

[GTLeigh]

This is an old issue, when GT5 first came out all the races where grid starts but it was too easy, you were always in first place by the first or second corner. PD changed this to rolling starts to make it feel more of a race, it got really boring really fast out on your own with 5 laps to go.

GT6 kept the rolling starts, they're not perfect but they do prolong the feeling of being in a race further than the first or second corner.

I know people will say that they have grid starts in the karts and the red bull challenges but what make these different is that all the cars are the same. This cannot be said for other races. Even if you pick a car which is 100PP less than the recommended PP the cars are all different models, some near the PP, some far from it.

I like to drive stock cars but a lot of people like to modify their cars which increases the PP, as such to make it fair the race is a rolling start.

I'm sure a lot of you will remember how easy GT5 was before the rolling starts.

Plus if it really annoys you pick a much lower PP car and drive it stock on comfort tyres, and by much lower I mean more than 100PP less than the recommended PP. The game can be as easy or hard as you make it, you do not always have to drive the recommended PP, just as if on a real life bendy road you won't drive at the speed limit, you will back down for safety reasons. I've seen some roads in Wales which have a 70 mph limit but you would only drive at 30-40 due to the road itself.

 

[bodger]

This is an old issue, when GT5 first came out all the races where grid starts but it was too easy, you were always in first place by the first or second corner. PD changed this to rolling starts to make it feel more of a race, it got really boring really fast out on your own with 5 laps to go.

GT6 kept the rolling starts, they're not perfect but they do prolong the feeling of being in a race further than the first or second corner.

I know people will say that they have grid starts in the karts and the red bull challenges but what make these different is that all the cars are the same. This cannot be said for other races. Even if you pick a car which is 100PP less than the recommended PP the cars are all different models, some near the PP, some far from it.

I like to drive stock cars but a lot of people like to modify their cars which increases the PP, as such to make it fair the race is a rolling start.

I'm sure a lot of you will remember how easy GT5 was before the rolling starts.

Plus if it really annoys you pick a much lower PP car and drive it stock on comfort tyres, and by much lower I mean more than 100PP less than the recommended PP. The game can be as easy or hard as you make it, you do not always have to drive the recommended PP, just as if on a real life bendy road you won't drive at the speed limit, you will back down for safety reasons. I've seen some roads in Wales which have a 70 mph limit but you would only drive at 30-40 due to the road itself.

It dates back to GT5 prologue actually. In fact, I seem to remember 4 having it to a certain extent.

Although I sort of agree, the kart race grid start vs pp car race excuse, I don't buy it.

There already is a PP limit on the car races, and tyres etc. but this doesn't mean the performance of the AI is even as close as the karts.

The way I see it, there is AI in the game that is capable of being aggressive/competitive, they just choose not to wheel it out for the career races. Instead, the choice seems to be to make the competition slow enough so you can pass it in 2/3 laps and make you pass the whole field.

 

[Tmortn]

Grid starts have problems on two fronts as far as the processing power goes. First corner pileups causes a spike in both AI calculations and frame rate. Someone above mentioned the pre race pit scene and mono races as examples for why there was enough processing power when in fact they probably show the opposite. The pre race scene involves no AI, no tire smoke, no suspension modeling etc. Mono race AI has only two cars to model and one AI driver. Chances are they can up the cycles given to the AI which when balanced against careful car selection makes for a good race.

That said while I hate rolling starts it is not because of the method. It is because the way they implement it in a 3-5 lap race where you often have to be able to close a 15+ second gap there is no way for it to be a competitive race. To win such a race you have to sustain a multiple second per lap advantage. This means the rabbit is either not competitive with a car/driver combo capable of closing the gap, or it has to gimp itself to wait for you to clear the field ( so called rubberbanding). Ie if the rabbit is going all out and you can catch it then by definition it can't give you a good race when you catch it. If it is capable of giving you a run for your money there is no reasonable way to close the gap in the first place. Remember in that case it is running up front with no traffic and you are making your way through the field. Hence the rolling roadblock nature of such events.

To make things worse they make it almost impossible to consistently balance your car selection against the field to at least make things come down to the last lap because you never know who the rabbit will be until after you select a car and start the race.

They are deffinitly doing some rubber banding. But they are not always doing a good job of letting the rabbit ramp back up once they let you catch it. Worst example so far for me was a stock nurb edition GTR against a recent black edition GTR rabbit in a three lap race. No way in hell I should catch it. But even if its the driver skill set level lets me out corner it the black edition should have run away on the straights. We came out of a corner on a straight and I stayed out of the slipstream exiting the corner from two car lengths back and went by like I was the one in the black edition. Hate to say but that is almost better than when the rabbit goes rabid after you pass it as that often leads to being spun out on the last lap.


I suspect the rubber banding has to do with lowering the amount of AI processing given the back markers and giving them to the front runners. But there has to be a delicate balance on when they do that shift. I think this is the reason most cars you pass seem to go into a coma except for those in podium positions.

Given the likely shortage of cycles for the AI in full fields I doubt there is a fix in GT 6 on a PS 3. Here is hoping they allocate a larger percentage to AI once they go to the PS4. In the mean time I'd really like to be able to know the exact field when selecting my car. As is I clear out the races to collect trophies and build my garage, then go back looking for the right balance to race with the field and forget about the rabbit.

 

[bodger]

Yes, there is no AI to calculate on the cut scene, but there is plenty extra that is going on there that doesn't happen in a race. E.g. multiple motion captured human models etc.

Also, the very fact that the online mode can have 16 players running a grid start, plus run all the network code, pretty much illustrates the point that technically, there aren't many issues there.

Also, the kart races seem to have little issues with multiple AI drivers on a grid start.

There are also these Red Bull junior events...

Don't buy it. For me, this is a design decision.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Red Bull junior events would suggest it is a design decision and nothing to do with frame rates outside the later events that allow more cars.

 

[CarBastard]

Because Kaz is oh such a perfectionist...

 

[Tmortn]

Heh... No argument it's a design decision. I just think the processing limits play more into it than you seem to.

Pre race scenes are static animation routines where the scene has no variation except for which car models to slot in and maybe what weather/lighting to render. This means there are no real time physics calcs (much less any control input reactions) to make to decide how to render the next frame for multiple cars in motion.

RB and Karts are one make races which means far less variation in the field and that makes a big difference. Online grids require zero AI calculation as that is provided by the players. Given online still seems to allow a larger grid than offline that is a pretty big clue just how much horsepower the AI routines take.

That said I need to go try the RB jr race and see how it is behaving. Imagine it is out on the edge of what they will put out for mass consumption.

Ultimately I suspect the problem is not that it can't be done, it is that it can not be done reliably enough across the full range of possible situations. There is a massive range of possible combinations in any given race having a field with dozens of viable cars to build the grid from before you get to crazy player selections and behavior. Good test of this in the past were Fuji races or Nurburgring gp because most of the field still piles up at the first corner even with rolling starts. Go dive bomb one of those and try to wreak as much havoc as possible pin balling through the pack. Generally results in a stuttering mess. Even going through cleanly on a half field jump can kill the frame rate in some cases. Polyphony has to allow for the pin balling idiots as well as the clean racers when shipping the game. And the fear of negative press from idiots drives a lot of lowest common denominator decisions in game design.

Haven't poked around in GT 6 enough to see what the differences are now from 5. They are obviously putting more calc time into the player car physics, but they seem to have simplified the AI car routines a bit (immovable object behavior is worse now). Rendering is pretty similar but they improved smoke and added all the weather and sky stuff so some optimizations are in place. I have not yet confirmed my suspicions that the back markers go pretty stupid as you close in on the front runner. Most of them noticeably slow down after you pass them making me suspect they are reverting to more conservative and less calculation intensive routines. Replays should show this very clearly if it is happening by lap/sector time comparisons of opponents while you are in close contact with them and when they are way ahead or clearly passed. There is definitely a routine for slowing down the front runners to let you catch up that seems to kick in if you are behind enough after the first couple of laps.

Another thing to look at are races where an outlier car gets gridded back in the pack. If the AI were equal across the field all the time you would expect that car to make its way through the pack. But that is not what I have been seeing when it happens. There are Definite behavior difference when the fastest AI car is gridded deep in the field vs when it gets the rabbit slot. Doesn't happen often though and right now I am not bored enough to run multiple races when it happens and compare lap/sector times.

 

[Jubby]

I'm curious about 2 things on this topic.

1. What about grid starts make them so fun?

2. How many regional/national/international series actually use grid starts? (I really don't know)

For me, grid starts make things easier- I prefer the rolling starts for a challenge (in a vacuum; never mind the AI quality). (2) I know F1 does grid starts, but most series I see/watch do rolling starts (mostly double, but a couple triple file).

Please anyone enlighten me on #2, and I'm interested in seeing what people think about #1.

 

[AmyUD06]

I'm curious about 2 things on this topic.

1. What about grid starts make them so fun?

2. How many regional/national/international series actually use grid starts? (I really don't know)

For me, grid starts make things easier- I prefer the rolling starts for a challenge (in a vacuum; never mind the AI quality). (2) I know F1 does grid starts, but most series I see/watch do rolling starts (mostly double, but a couple triple file).

Please anyone enlighten me on #2, and I'm interested in seeing what people think about #1.

1. It would give those complaining about the all-rolling starts the ability to pass all of the AI at the first corner using an overpowered car, then complain that races are just time trials. See, complaining about the "moving obstacle rabbit-chase" races got old in GT5, they want something else to complain about.

2. I can't remember the last time I saw a televised race that used a standing grid start.

 

[Jubby]

1. It would give those complaining about the all-rolling starts the ability to pass all of the AI at the first corner using an overpowered car, then complain that races are just time trials. See, complaining about the "moving obstacle rabbit-chase" races got old in GT5, they want something else to complain about.

That's what I figured.

 

[Tired Tyres]

In the real world it is normal to have a standing start to a race. Especially in Europe. Rolling starts are abnormal but not uncommon.

Additionally, they require an ability to launch the car properly.

In GT6, it is really a rolling start, but a single file restart with each car waiting until it crosses the line before it accelerates. Does any American race series start like that?

Try the Red Bull Junior championship for a feel of what standing starts are about.

 

[Roflwaffle]

I can't remember the last time I saw a televised race that used a standing grid start.

Open-wheel racing, touring cars, Rallycross. motorcycle racing etc...

 

[bodger]

Heh... No argument it's a design decision. I just think the processing limits play more into it than you seem to.

Pre race scenes are static animation routines where the scene has no variation except for which car models to slot in and maybe what weather/lighting to render. This means there are no real time physics calcs (much less any control input reactions) to make to decide how to render the next frame for multiple cars in motion.

RB and Karts are one make races which means far less variation in the field and that makes a big difference. Online grids require zero AI calculation as that is provided by the players. Given online still seems to allow a larger grid than offline that is a pretty big clue just how much horsepower the AI routines take.

That said I need to go try the RB jr race and see how it is behaving. Imagine it is out on the edge of what they will put out for mass consumption.

Ultimately I suspect the problem is not that it can't be done, it is that it can not be done reliably enough across the full range of possible situations. There is a massive range of possible combinations in any given race having a field with dozens of viable cars to build the grid from before you get to crazy player selections and behavior. Good test of this in the past were Fuji races or Nurburgring gp because most of the field still piles up at the first corner even with rolling starts. Go dive bomb one of those and try to wreak as much havoc as possible pin balling through the pack. Generally results in a stuttering mess. Even going through cleanly on a half field jump can kill the frame rate in some cases. Polyphony has to allow for the pin balling idiots as well as the clean racers when shipping the game. And the fear of negative press from idiots drives a lot of lowest common denominator decisions in game design.

Haven't poked around in GT 6 enough to see what the differences are now from 5. They are obviously putting more calc time into the player car physics, but they seem to have simplified the AI car routines a bit (immovable object behavior is worse now). Rendering is pretty similar but they improved smoke and added all the weather and sky stuff so some optimizations are in place. I have not yet confirmed my suspicions that the back markers go pretty stupid as you close in on the front runner. Most of them noticeably slow down after you pass them making me suspect they are reverting to more conservative and less calculation intensive routines. Replays should show this very clearly if it is happening by lap/sector time comparisons of opponents while you are in close contact with them and when they are way ahead or clearly passed. There is definitely a routine for slowing down the front runners to let you catch up that seems to kick in if you are behind enough after the first couple of laps.

Another thing to look at are races where an outlier car gets gridded back in the pack. If the AI were equal across the field all the time you would expect that car to make its way through the pack. But that is not what I have been seeing when it happens. There are Definite behavior difference when the fastest AI car is gridded deep in the field vs when it gets the rabbit slot. Doesn't happen often though and right now I am not bored enough to run multiple races when it happens and compare lap/sector times.

Not sure what you are saying about them putting more processor time into the physics is fact. From what PD said in the build up press conferences, they said the new physics model is "more compact" and takes less processor time.

You need have a look at the mission races to see how effective the AI can be. Check out the Lamborghini Muru mission at Brands Hatch and the GTR mission at Silverstone.

 

[bodger]

I'm curious about 2 things on this topic.

1. What about grid starts make them so fun?

2. How many regional/national/international series actually use grid starts? (I really don't know)

For me, grid starts make things easier- I prefer the rolling starts for a challenge (in a vacuum; never mind the AI quality). (2) I know F1 does grid starts, but most series I see/watch do rolling starts (mostly double, but a couple triple file).

Please anyone enlighten me on #2, and I'm interested in seeing what people think about #1.

1 - See any Formula One race of the last 50 years. It is one of the most exciting parts of the race.

 

[Jubby]

1 - See any Formula One race of the last 50 years. It is one of the most exciting parts of the race.

Any racing fan worth his/her sanity, knows that F1 uses standing starts. I'm trying to find out more.

Open-wheel racing, touring cars, Rallycross. motorcycle racing etc...

Not all open wheel racing uses standing starts; the IZOD Indy Cars don't. They use 2x2 or 3x3 rolling starts; similar to what we get in GT6.

 

[varmintx]

Not all open wheel racing uses standing starts; the IZOD Indy Cars don't. They use 2x2 or 3x3 rolling starts; similar to what we get in GT6.

Last year, they experimented with using standing starts on the road/street courses. I have no idea if that will continue for the upcoming season.

 

[bodger]

Any racing fan worth his/her sanity, knows that F1 uses standing starts. I'm trying to find out more.

What else is there to know?

 

[Gabba73]

Not all open wheel racing uses standing starts; the IZOD Indy Cars don't. They use 2x2 or 3x3 rolling starts; similar to what we get in GT6.

in the real world There is no competition with rolling start like gt serie ; in the real world cars run on the start line at the maximum speed because pace car leave the road before the start straight so all the cars can accelerate before the start line. In gt you are forced to travel at cruise speed before the start line while others cars accelerate to the maximum as they passed the start line........ This is not a real rolling start!!!

 

[Jubby]

Last year, they experimented with using standing starts on the road/street courses. I have no idea if that will continue for the upcoming season.

I did see that and it was a complete cluster 🤬. It may work on closed circuits, but the streets is not really the place to be experimenting with that in that particular series- IMO. They're doing it as a gimmick, not as a competition booster.

What else is there to know?

With all of the complaining of "I hate rolling starts", I want to find out WHY fundamentally. Is it that their favorite series is F1 and they want it to be emulated in GT, is it that they like (insert 6 series here) and they find it more exciting with crashes- failed starts- false starts, etc.?

People are complaining about rolling starts and I like both, but I prefer rolling starts- so I want to see the other side of it. No one has really given any information (other than F1, a couple major series, and generalizations) that supports why standing starts are superior.

in the real world There is no competition with rolling start like gt serie ; in the real world cars run on the start line at the maximum speed because pace car leave the road before the start straight so all the cars can accelerate before the start line. In gt you are forced to travel at cruise speed before the start line while others cars accelerate to the maximum as they passed the start line........ This is not a real rolling start!!!

Funny, it looks an awful lot like the F1 restarts. The leader (rabbit) gets away really fast. 8/10 restarts this year, the leader (usually Vettel ) busted out to a second or better lead and the person in P6 or P8 is like 6-8 seconds in deficit already... sounds very familiar- doesn't it?

 

[DBM]

IRL standing starts can put a lot of strain on the transmission (so can add a lot to cost of maintance and breakages), plus also on longer races, you can use longer gears.
Also a lot of people says it's safer, in the case of some not being able to start.
A lot of short club races, will use a standing start, as well as most professional races, where cost of is less of an issue.

 

[Jubby]

IRL ... where cost of is less of an issue.

In real life, today, where is cost not an issue? I cannot think of a single series where cost is not an issue for every team that puts a car on the grid. Keep in mind, I'm not questioning the best teams (F1: Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari; NASCAR; Hendrick, Gibbs, Roush; etc.) however, if you take out the "top tier'' out of each series and cost is ALWAYS an issue.

I've watched a lot of racing in about 30 years. I've seen less crashes in rolling starts versus standing, as the speed differential is far less when running at a predetermined pace.

You do bring up a good point about standing starts though, if I read into it, which is the best drivers will do a much better job of launching versus the mediocre. They will also save their equipment better at start.