Lack of grid starts

[DBM]

In real life, today, where is cost not an issue? I cannot think of a single series where cost is not an issue for every team that puts a car on the grid.

Club racing, with non professional drivers, can't afford a new gearbox every race, or a gearbox that's 50,000+ than can handle standing starts.
Yes cost is an issue as such in all racing, but I'm comparing Club (where the driver is paying for the car, fee's and repairs) compared to professional racing, where the team is sponsored, and the driver is paid.
a BTCC team will have a bigger budget for each race, than 90% of Britcar teams will have for the whole year.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I did see that and it was a complete cluster 🤬. It may work on closed circuits, but the streets is not really the place to be experimenting with that in that particular series- IMO. They're doing it as a gimmick, not as a competition booster.

With all of the complaining of "I hate rolling starts", I want to find out WHY fundamentally. Is it that their favorite series is F1 and they want it to be emulated in GT, is it that they like (insert 6 series here) and they find it more exciting with crashes- failed starts- false starts, etc.?

People are complaining about rolling starts and I like both, but I prefer rolling starts- so I want to see the other side of it. No one has really given any information (other than F1, a couple major series, and generalizations) that supports why standing starts are superior.

Funny, it looks an awful lot like the F1 restarts. The leader (rabbit) gets away really fast. 8/10 restarts this year, the leader (usually Vettel ) busted out to a second or better lead and the person in P6 or P8 is like 6-8 seconds in deficit already... sounds very familiar- doesn't it?

Rolling starts being the operative word, not restarts. Did you read my previous post? Most motorsport outside the US has standing starts. A significant minority have rolling starts but they are nothing like to stupid one at a time accelerating individually at the start line rubbish than infests GT6.

 

[mister dog]

If we would have standing starts (or imagine a crazy idea like qualifying ), you would be first after 3 corners with GT's uber fast AI.

They still had it in the early days of GT5 before they changed it with an update; all to create an artificial feeling of "racing" as now you start every race with a serious time handicap and have to pass the whole grid before the laps run out...

So instead of redoing the AI; making it faster and more competitive (with a difficulty setting for newcomers and pro's alike), PD just opted to not fix it (too busy with mapping the stars?) and to have it this way.

 

[MKVSupra]

If you played Forza 5 you'd know grid starts don't work well.
Its rock em sock em crash em for the first half a lap.

Ai is not competent enough to make it work well, sucks.

 

[Tired Tyres]

^ Red Bull Junior Startline AI says Hi. ^

 

[MSTER232]

some say the rolling starts are down to processing limitations, but surely it should be possible with standing starts when the grid is only six cars

This would make no sense because it is possible to have a 16 car standing start grid online. If the PS3 lacks the processing power to handle 16 cars on a grid at once, then it shouldn't be possible regardless if the race is taking place online or offline. Thus, processing limitations is not an excuse to not have standing starts in offline races.

EDIT: The Red Bull X2014 Junior championship uses a standing start grid with 16 cars taking part. Clearly processing power is not the issue here...?

 

[regnar]

Grid starts preferabably, if there's any chance of this working the AI needs to be very quick off the line, there needs to be risks for the player to over come, a good launch without slipping the tires and the risk of damage (mechanical) if contact is made.

The length of laps needs to be increased, currently your forced to win the race on the first turn, lap, essentially GT races are mission races last to first on the shortest amount of laps. If you had a races with grid starts with enough laps, emplimenting mechanical damage would force you to take care of your car, working your way through the field, instead of dive bombing into the turns to take first with no consequences.

There moments in this game where the AI is giving me a tough challenge, if that could be dialed up all time it would make it more exciting.

 

[Stumps_GTI]

Ai is not competent enough to make it work well, sucks.

^^^ This.
Fact is PD can not make the AI competent enough. That's the way I read it. (shrugs)
Crikey, in 15 years, all they have achieved is making them worse.
TOCA had more competitive AI ALL those years ago on PS2 for crying out loud.

 

[starcarper]

I believe it is a number of things all making it not logical for PD to run standing starts.

The AI is I feel the main problem. Most of GT5 was set up with grid starts but was changed after, if I remember correctly the first major update.

Sometimes it was absolute carnage on the first corner ( especially with a mistimed breaking error by the human involved) and at that time AI seemed to be non existent but was probably due to the sheer number of calculations being done in the melee.

Screen tearing and a slowing down effect were mentioned at the time also.

Now though we know they can do one make races as in the RedBull ones. So simple answer is give us the opportunity to race every single car in the game as a one make race on any track we choose.

Maybe that's too simple though

Come on PD, do you know how much we love this game and how much better it would be with just a few more FREE choices.

 

[sumbrownkid]

^^^ This.
Fact is PD can not make the AI competent enough. That's the way I read it. (shrugs)
Crikey, in 15 years, all they have achieved is making them worse.
TOCA had more competitive AI ALL those years ago on PS2 for crying out loud.

TOCA is also nowhere near the level GT is in everything else, lets not kid ourselves here. I think the AI is not up to snuff to make a grid start exciting. It was cool in the redbull jr because the cars were all identical. It's harder I guess to make a challenging grid start when you can bring anything to the table so long as the PP regs are met.

 

[Gabba73]

Funny, it looks an awful lot like the F1 restarts. The leader (rabbit) gets away really fast. 8/10 restarts this year, the leader (usually Vettel ) busted out to a second or better lead and the person in P6 or P8 is like 6-8 seconds in deficit already... sounds very familiar- doesn't it?

No, absolutely no. In f1 restart, the pace car leave the track before the start straight and all the cars can accelerate to stay in the trail of the ahead car.

 

[rampageturke]

Funny, it looks an awful lot like the F1 restarts. The leader (rabbit) gets away really fast. 8/10 restarts this year, the leader (usually Vettel ) busted out to a second or better lead and the person in P6 or P8 is like 6-8 seconds in deficit already... sounds very familiar- doesn't it?

you dont know anything stop posting

Club racing, with non professional drivers, can't afford a new gearbox every race, or a gearbox that's 50,000+ than can handle standing starts.
Yes cost is an issue as such in all racing, but I'm comparing Club (where the driver is paying for the car, fee's and repairs) compared to professional racing, where the team is sponsored, and the driver is paid.
a BTCC team will have a bigger budget for each race, than 90% of Britcar teams will have for the whole year.

formula ford 1600 series run standing starts

 

[Jubby]

you dont know anything stop posting

Can you provide documented information contrary to what I'm saying or are you just an ignorant troll?

Rolling starts being the operative word, not restarts. Did you read my previous post? Most motorsport outside the US has standing starts. A significant minority have rolling starts but they are nothing like to stupid one at a time accelerating individually at the start line rubbish than infests GT6.

I don't mean this facetiously, but aside from the major autosport (F1, BTCC, etc.) can you help me with a few series that do so that I can do further research? I tried to look up standing starts, but after searching for 20 minutes, it'd probably be easier getting a couple concrete examples from folks like yourself- which is my entire premise, so maybe we're both not reading each other's entire posts.

 

[Gabba73]

Do you understand that in GT6 (as in the previous GT) you don't have a proper "rolling start"?!?!?!?
If Poliphony insists to give us rolling start at least implements that in the correct way.
There is no serie in the world where during rolling start you have to wait until start line before you can accellerate; we need to have all the cars at full speed on the start straight and we need to have full control of our car before the start line.

 

[Jubby]

No, absolutely no. In f1 restart, the pace car leave the track before the start straight and all the cars can accelerate to stay in the trail of the ahead car.

Yes, this is what the rules say, but what you actually get is another thing... the gap between P1 and P10 or back grows to 5+ seconds before the first turn. I rarely ever see a close restart. But that's not what this thread was supposed to be about, so...

Do you understand that in GT6 (as in the previous GT) you don't have a proper "rolling start"?!?!?!?
If Poliphony insists to give us rolling start at least implements that in the correct way.
There is no serie in the world where during rolling start you have to wait until start line before you can accellerate; we need to have all the cars at full speed on the start straight and we need to have full control of our car before the start line.

I'm not saying there is. I'm not asking for that information. This thread is about grid starts... so I'm trying to find information on them. I'm sure there is a thread out there that includes continuing to complain about rolling starts.

 

[Gabba73]

Yes, this is what the rules say, but what you actually get is another thing... the gap between P1 and P10 or back grows to 5+ seconds before the first turn. I rarely ever see a close restart. But that's not what this thread was supposed to be about, so...

I'm not saying there is. I'm not asking for that information. This thread is about grid starts... so I'm trying to find information on them. I'm sure there is a thread out there that includes continuing to complain about rolling starts.

In Gt between P1 and P10 there aren't 5 second but many more than 10, already on start line..... Sorry but your comparison fails. The thread is about starting grid because the rolling start as it is in gt is unreal and awful. What are you looking for about grid start?

 

[Stumps_GTI]

TOCA is also nowhere near the level GT is in everything else, lets not kid ourselves here. I think the AI is not up to snuff to make a grid start exciting. It was cool in the redbull jr because the cars were all identical. It's harder I guess to make a challenging grid start when you can bring anything to the table so long as the PP regs are met.

Fair enough, but TOCA was also from the same era as GT1/2 (actually PS1, not 2 as I first mentioned )
I had both and they shared console time pretty evenly. Always loved GT, but TOCA still had that edgy feel to it, and I thought (back then) that their AI were pretty amazing. There were all sorts of temperaments involved, some guys you could brush by easily, others fought back harder. 👍
That said, I totally agree that GT6 AI are NOT up to snuff.

 

[raven214]

Not all open wheel racing uses standing starts; the IZOD Indy Cars don't. They use 2x2 or 3x3 rolling starts; similar to what we get in GT6.

The thing is, what we have now in GT6 (besides kart/RB) is not even a proper rolling start. It's much more a glorified time trial or a chase between you and the lead car (rabbit) with obstacle cars in the way. I want a bunched start with competitive AI. I don't care so much if it's rolling or standing (whatever fits the track works for me), but I want the cars 2x2 in a tight grid and to have a real race rather than the time trial/challenge we have now.

 

[Jubby]

In Gt between P1 and P10 there aren't 5 second but many more than 10, already on start line..... Sorry but your comparison fails. The thread is about starting grid because the rolling start as it is in gt is unreal and awful. What are you looking for about grid start?

The thing is, what we have now in GT6 (besides kart/RB) is not even a proper rolling start. It's much more a glorified time trial or a chase between you and the lead car (rabbit) with obstacle cars in the way. I want a bunched start with competitive AI. I don't care so much if it's rolling or standing (whatever fits the track works for me), but I want the cars 2x2 in a tight grid and to have a real race rather than the time trial/challenge we have now.

I'm not saying you're not correct (both of you), I'm not debating any of that. Regardless of all of this, since it's not the point of my original post in this thread, why do you want to see grid starts? Please do not reply with a simple- it is better. I'd like to know a reasoned response.

 

[MoLiEG]

Grid start? What is that?

Being completely serious now, I think this is one of the things PD will never... NEVER fix...

 

[raven214]

I'm not saying you're not correct (both of you), I'm not debating any of that. Regardless of all of this, since it's not the point of my original post in this thread, why do you want to see grid starts? Please do not reply with a simple- it is better. I'd like to know a reasoned response.

I want to see grid starts because I want to simulate racing, not chase the rabbit time trials. I would prefer standing grid starts (on road courses, rolling on ovals) because I like the anticipation and rush of all the cars revving up and then launching into the first turn, but I would be happy with rolling starts if they would just be grouped together 2x2 and start together with the drop of the green flag. I will not argue that the AI is pathetic at times, but I have seen other times where it's pretty good. I used to do single-make races in GT5, and while the AI wasn't as good as in, say Shift 2, it was pretty good and that was with standing grid starts IIRC.

I don't agree with the argument "we can't have grid starts because we'd be leading by the first turn." I'm by no means the best driver in the world, but that didn't happen to me in single-make in GT5 nor does it in karts/RB in GT6. I suppose you could make some pretty big gains if you drive like an idiot and play bumper cars, but I prefer to drive as if the AI are real competitors. As it is now, you can take a way overpowered car (at least until later races) and run cars off the road and collect your check without any competion. Either way, it is what you make it. Tweak the AI, add optional mechanical damage, and fix the hand-standing hard/early braking the AI is doing on corner entry and you've got the beginnings of a system that actually gives the player incentive to race cleanly - and that benefits everyone.

I realize my examples were all with identical cars. For career races I think the middle and/or at least upper level races should have all the cars lightly modded to similiar PP - you can do this in several different ways but that is a separate topic. They don't have to be identical but if they are close then that will make the field more even, and competitive as a whole, rather than having perhaps a 50-100 PP gap in some instances.

If PD insists on keeping career mode the lame challenge/time trial mode that it currently is, they could at least give us full options for single races. That way if you want an actual race you could setup difficulty, damage, grid start, opponent type (I.e. car class), etc.

 

[lazywolfe]

People are complaining about rolling starts and I like both, but I prefer rolling starts- so I want to see the other side of it. No one has really given any information (other than F1, a couple major series, and generalizations) that supports why standing starts are superior.

It doesn't matter if one is more superior or not, that's not the point, man. It's an aspect of RACING. That's your "other side". It should be in the game. End of story.

Just more typical "PD can do no wrong, so let's call the people wanting the feature whiners/complainers" crap.

 

[Gabba73]

I'm not saying you're not correct (both of you), I'm not debating any of that. Regardless of all of this, since it's not the point of my original post in this thread, why do you want to see grid starts? Please do not reply with a simple- it is better. I'd like to know a reasoned response.

Because in real world a lot of motorsport series have grid start; just some examples:
STCC
BTCC
DTM
WTCC
F3000
F3
F1
PORSCHE CARRERA CUP
V8 SUPERCAR

 

[Sn1per666]

I wouldn't mind rolling starts so much if the races were much longer and the AI was faster and less predictable.

 

[Jubby]

I want to see grid starts because I want to simulate racing.. clipped for brevity

Thank you. I appreciate your response. I agree that the grid starts should be more feasible with an AI that is able to always drive the wheels off of their car, not just when you get ahead- however that's a subject in a different thread.

I wouldn't mind rolling starts so much if the races were much longer and the AI was faster and less predictable.

Agreed.

It doesn't matter if one is more superior or not, that's not the point, man. It's an aspect of RACING. That's your "other side". It should be in the game. End of story.

Just more typical "PD can do no wrong, so let's call the people wanting the feature whiners/complainers" crap.

It is because... it is? Let's try and not use a circular reasoning and find out why you actually want it, other than "because". If you don't want to provide a reason, then don't be a jerk about my reasonable attempt to carry a meaningful discussion based on the OP's topic.

Examples

Thank you, there was a couple on that list that I didn't know about.

 

[IceMan PJN]

If you played Forza 5 you'd know grid starts don't work well.
Its rock em sock em crash em for the first half a lap.

Ai is not competent enough to make it work well, sucks.

It would be fantastic if you had any idea what you were talking about.

1) FM5 isn't the first Forza to have grid starts. All previous games had them and they worked fine.

2) FM5 isn't using normal AI. It replicates player behavior and uses that. Primitive AI like previous games wouldn't do this.

3) Players are at fault for that, because they taught Drivatars to do that.

While more chaotic, and admittedly sometimes irritating, it's 846 times more interesting than the sterile, neutered AI in GT. There's no doubt about that. Nobody has ever praised the AI in GT, and never really derived any thrill from racing them, and by "racing" I mean sailing by as they casually parade around the circuit.

 

[Roflwaffle]

Not all open wheel racing uses standing starts; the IZOD Indy Cars don't. They use 2x2 or 3x3 rolling starts; similar to what we get in GT6.

No in GT6 you get cars quite spread out in a rolling start not 2x2 or 3x3 they're all in a long line of cars.

 

[lazywolfe]

It is because... it is? Let's try and not use a circular reasoning and find out why you actually want it, other than "because". If you don't want to provide a reason, then don't be a jerk about my reasonable attempt to carry a meaningful discussion based on the OP's topic.

What is "it"? Did you even read what I said or did you just jump at the chance to misuse a logical fallacy term?
I didn't justify that grid starts should be in because they should be. I said that wanting the option in the game has *nothing* to do with one type being more or less superior to the other. That's just some weird random thing you pulled out of the air.

My other point was the same as raven's:

raven214: I want to see grid starts because I want to simulate racing...

Me: It's an aspect of RACING. That's your "other side". It should be in the game.

He also, in a great way, describes why they are fun (and I completely agree). I didn't go to his lengths to describe why it's fun because when I see posts like this...

Mike240SX said
1. It would give those complaining about the all-rolling starts the ability to pass all of the AI at the first corner using an overpowered car, then complain that races are just time trials. See, complaining about the "moving obstacle rabbit-chase" races got old in GT5, they want something else to complain about.

YOU:
That's what I figured.

Jubby:
With all of the complaining of "I hate rolling starts", I want to find out WHY fundamentally.

People are complaining about rolling starts and I like both, but I prefer rolling starts- so I want to see the other side of it.

...I'm not going to take you seriously. That's you and Mike mocking people for wanting grid starts, so put away your victim card and don't act shocked when I give a short, clipped response to what I think is a silly tangent from the OP's original point and, again, what I see as more "PD can do no wrong, so let's call the people wanting the feature whiners/complainers" crap.

 

[Awong124]

If you played Forza 5 you'd know grid starts don't work well.
Its rock em sock em crash em for the first half a lap.

Ai is not competent enough to make it work well, sucks.

Maybe PD isn't competent enough to make the AI competent enough. Standing starts work well enough in Codemasters F1 games, so it's possible to do so.

 

[starcarper]

Maybe PD isn't competent enough to make the AI competent enough. Standing starts work well enough in Codemasters F1 games.

I am wondering if this is something similar to why PD can do reasonably good AI in grid starts for example, RedBull races where it it one make as it is in F1. I know F1 are not identical but they are very similar with similar cornering and driving calculations.

So many makes of different cars in a standard PD race with vastly different looks and characteristics probably causes immense problems for PD.

We will probably find out when they have more RAM in the PS4. If we have poor AI then we can really all complain about it.