Le Mans 2010: LMP1 Will Be Closed-Prototypes Only (Updated)

[Kylehnat]

Are you seriously complaining about something that happened 15 years ago?

IRL: Driver + car weight = whatever. DANICA + car weight = 100 pounds less. Fair?

 

[ND4SPD]

Damn, all those concepts looks stunning. I can't wait to see what an R10 would look like with a closed top.

 

[Kylehnat]

There's something just...raw...about closed-top prototypes. Almost like a torture chamber that only the strong can survive a 24-hour race in

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

Are you seriously complaining about something that happened 15 years ago?

IRL: Driver + car weight = whatever. DANICA + car weight = 100 pounds less. Fair?

No I'm not, just stating a fact so many people don't know (or like to forget)

 

[Kylehnat]

No I'm not, just stating a fact so many people don't know (or like to forget)

Well, with the ever-changing ACO rules, who knows if it's every truly "fair".

 

[Layla's Keeper]

I'm with Gil. Too many folks fail to realize that the 787B's accomplishments aren't really all that spectacular because of rules allotments made for the rotary engine, and that the majority of the Cat 2. grid was in fact faster than the 787B.

Also, there's a HUGE misconception that the 787B was so fast that some sort of anti-Asia conspiracy forced rotaries out of competition. The raw fact of the matter is that the rotary powered prototypes of the 80's were by and large an underperforming group, and everything just happened to go Mazda's way in 1991. ALL of the Cat. 2 entrants were pushed out at the end of 1991, to make way for Cat 1, and eventually WSC/LMP and GT1.

AND ROTARIES FLOURISHED IN WSC/LMP!

So, it really ruffles my goat when people go spreading this "Yeah, Japan is so much better but nasty Anglos banned them" garbage. It's just not the case.

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

Well, with the ever-changing ACO rules, who knows if it's every truly "fair".

But, even them don't go all an out to create an "equal and fair" race a la IMSA with their "performance bulletins" (and I'm not thinking on the one concerning the R10 and the other LMP1 cars, but more on the Aston vs Vette dribble....)

That's why I love(d) so much the Group C years:

- you have 50 littres to spend for each 100km... No more rules concerning engines

(nowadays, you could impose a 40l/100km to keep engine power "in check" and f.... off the rest!!!!)

 

[mwoodski]

Heck, if they allowed diesels, why don't they allow rotaries? I mean, the 787B swept the whole field, and even finished in such a good condition that they said it could run another 24Hrs... But the R10, swept the whole field, too, but wasn't banned. Where's the logic? I see a great potential in Rotaries. Quiet, powerfull (compared to the volume of the engine), and, basically, a new area. The first piston-engines were clumsy and inefficient. So were the first rotaries. But with Mazda being the only one with them...

The hell you smokin man?? According to stories I've heard, the rotary 787B was the LOUDEST car to ever race at Le Mans, some course workers saying their ears were ringing 3 to four days after the event!

Cheers,
Matt.

 

[Metar]

The hell you smokin man?? According to stories I've heard, the rotary 787B was the LOUDEST car to ever race at Le Mans, some course workers saying their ears were ringing 3 to four days after the event!

Cheers,
Matt.

Sorry. I gotta be mixing up the Audi R8/10...

And that screamy exhaust-note in GT4 makes it believable.

 

[Kylehnat]

I'd imagine that folks within earshot of the track don't sleep well that night . From my experiences at the track, the rotary engines are far and away the loudest. The B-K Motorsports Courage is easily the loudest car on the ALMS grid, and that's using a 3-rotor. Even the cars in the Star Mazda Series, using RX-8 engines, require one to wear earplugs. I'd imagine the 787B was unbearable. I've seen videos where the car overpowers a microphone that's several hundred feet away. Contrast that to the R10, which is so quiet, you can't hear it coming. On approach, the engine is quieter than the sound of the air passing over the body. As it passes, the engine makes a faint whisper. Audi claims that at full-throttle, it puts out 85 dB, which is quieter than a room full of talking people.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Here is the brand new Peugeot 908 HDi!

 

[Metar]

As seen in my sig in the last week

The Sexiest LMP ever seen.

Wonder how they did the doors for the driver-changes...

It's diesel HDi V12 develops 700BHP (515KW) and 1200Nm of torque - huge amounts.

Some info, and some high-quality renders (and more info).

EDIT: And some pictures of the real car in Paris.

 

[dougiemeats]

EDIT: And some pictures of the real car in Paris.

Note that this isn't the "real" car. One can't actually get in and drive this thing. Right now they've made it look sexy for the showroom, but when it's time to hit the track, expect it to look more aggressive. As I posted in the other thread, you'll see more winglets, ducts, and various other aerodynamic components (oh yeah, and doors!).

Right now, it looks like it's about to enter a beauty-pageant. But expect it too look like a ripped beast ready to do battle against Audi's monster come raceday.

 

[Metar]

Note that this isn't the "real" car. One can't actually get in and drive this thing. Right now they've made it look sexy for the showroom, but when it's time to hit the track, expect it to look more aggressive. As I posted in the other thread, you'll see more winglets, ducts, and various other aerodynamic components (oh yeah, and doors!).

Right now, it looks like it's about to enter a beauty-pageant. But expect it too look like a ripped beast ready to do battle against Audi's monster come raceday.

It's the most "real" thing there is right now. According to PSA, the only thing about to be changed is the aerodynamic devices, on which they'll start working before the december test-drive, and continue working on them. So yeah, the front lip won't be so round, but it'll generally be the very same car.

 

[dougiemeats]

It's the most "real" thing there is right now. According to PSA, the only thing about to be changed is the aerodynamic devices, on which they'll start working before the december test-drive, and continue working on them. So yeah, the front lip won't be so round, but it'll generally be the very same car.

Which is unfortunate, since this model is so smooth. I wish it could race looking like this. Oh well, bring on the winglets!

 

[Metar]

Which is unfortunate, since this model is so smooth. I wish it could race looking like this. Oh well, bring on the winglets!

They're not that large... Imagine a cross between this car, with the little added stuff from the Pescarolo LMPs (The closest thing to this car I could find)...

I simply adore this design.

 

[m.piedgros]

Yeah, still no doors. To be honest, I'm not loving the design. I love the power plant, but if you could find a way to shoe-horn the Audi V12 into a Bentley Speed 8 I'd take that over the 908 any day. Sorry guys. It just "isn't my bag, baby yeah."

m.piedgros

 

[dougiemeats]

They're not that large... Imagine a cross between this car, with the little added stuff from the Pescarolo LMPs (The closest thing to this car I could find)...

I simply adore this design.

Lola as a concept:



Lola on the race track:



Notice that the race-version isn't quite as smooth as the concept? I expect the same for the Peugeot. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it will be a huge difference, but I don't think it will look as slick as it does right now.

 

[Metar]

They could make it Pescarolo-style. The Front Wheel-wells on the Pescarolos look pretty similar to the ones on the 908 Concept - which means it might get on the track like this...
And that Lola concept looks pretty early, not like a version that's already been built. And Lola doesn't have any commitments to design, unlike Peugeot, which just can't make a bad-looking car. Some parts may be not the most beautifull, but the overall is never ugly.

And Piedgros: Doors won't change the design much - when closed, a door is barely visible...

EDIT: What's with this Peugeot? It's build according to both LMP1 and LMP2 specs, yet has no rear spoiler, a 200HP engine, and LMP safety-stuff. What's the car, actually? Road-car, Concept, Future LMP, Future some-other-class?

 

[m.piedgros]

I don't understand your "Lola looks pretty early" comment. The concept car they showed was just as outrageous as that render above is. The point is, if you like the 908 you'll probably like the car in race trim. Just don't expect that flawless smooth flow you see in the concept model and pictures.

m.piedgros

 

[Michael88]

OH YES!

The best thing I've heard in the last months about motorsports, you could almost say ''welcome back Group C''.
I've also heard that the fuel consumption will be regulated more strictly....is that true?

However, I never got the idea why LMP's have a open cockpit, as far as I know it does not improve aerodynamics, I would even say its bad for it.
(Air flow gets stuck somehow in the cockpit opening? Less downforce cause of no angled windshield?)

I think it was time for a big change, the LMP's today look like formula one cars just with covered tires and a beefed up bodywork.....IMO a race car with a closed cockpit looks much more characteristic and is beautiful...

Oh well, maybe Im just naive.

 

[Earth]

The ACO will not enforce closed LMP1 prototypes rules from 2010 onward. They appear to be listening to the manufacturers, Dr. Ullrich of Audi does not like closed prototypes, and most new prototypes chassis/bodies being made today do not comply to the 2010 rules and would be unusable.

At first I was upset, but then images of Le Mans 1999 came into my head, images of the closed Toyota GT1 blasting by the open BMW LMR V12 on the straight, or even Le Mans 2007, coupes battling open cockpit prototypes (908 vs R10). 2 distinctly different looking vehicles battling each other at equal speed.

I think that is better then the LMP1 class being nothing but a bunch of closed cockpit drones that look way too similiar to each other. People always talk of the glory of the group C era, but imo those cars look way too similiar

Besides, it appears with the new double rollover bar/2 seater rules a coupe is not at a disadvantage anymore but rather at an advantage in some aspecs, so I think you will see a nice mix of closed and open prototypes in LMP1

 

[RACECAR]

OH YES!

The best thing I've heard in the last months about motorsports, you could almost say ''welcome back Group C''.
I've also heard that the fuel consumption will be regulated more strictly....is that true?

However, I never got the idea why LMP's have a open cockpit, as far as I know it does not improve aerodynamics, I would even say its bad for it.
(Air flow gets stuck somehow in the cockpit opening? Less downforce cause of no angled windshield?)

Actually, There is a small windscreen that deflects the air over the cockpit area. If you look up close at say, the Lola B06/10's cockpit, you'll notice it. As for the reason they have open cockpits, its been more favored for some reason. There is not that much advantage other then better visabilty and lower cockpit tempertures.

 

[Earth]

Actually, There is a small windscreen that deflects the air over the cockpit area. If you look up close at say, the Lola B06/10's cockpit, you'll notice it. As ofr the reason they have it, its been more favored for some reason. THeirs not that much advantage other then better visabilty and lower cockpit tempertures.

I remember at Le Mans 2006 the then leading Audi spent a good amount of time in the pits reparing/replacing the little itty bitty wind screen the R-10 has.

If I remember correctly the commentators were saying that small windscreen plays a huge role in the aerodynamics of the car and that's why they had to spend the large amount of time to replace it

 

[RACECAR]

I remember at Le Mans 2006 the then leading Audi spent a good amount of time in the pits reparing/replacing the little itty bitty wind screen the R-10 has.

If I remember correctly the commentators were saying that small windscreen plays a huge role in the aerodynamics of the car and that's why they had to spend the large amount of time to replace it

I remember that as well. Its rarely explained, but those windscreens are very important whe nit comes to aerodynamics. Also, I was reffering to the reason that LMPs are open cockpit cars.

 

[Metar]

Actually, There is a small windscreen that deflects the air over the cockpit area. If you look up close at say, the Lola B06/10's cockpit, you'll notice it. As for the reason they have open cockpits, its been more favored for some reason. There is not that much advantage other then better visabilty and lower cockpit tempertures.

Reason, as always, is aerodynamics. A teardrop-silhouette coupe's shape works essentially like a huge wing creating lift, because the air flows faster over the car. That's good for top-end speed (less drag), but bad for the downforce. It's also a problem F1 engineers are facing with the sidepods, for example.

An open prototype basically "breaks up" the flow to the rear, which skips that problem. On top of it, the open top allows easy cooling to the cockpit and easier driver-changes. In the old days, when aerodynamics were quite a bit more basic, the benefits of the open top would be canceled out by the huge increase in drag - but today's modern CFD- and windtunnel-designed cars get around that using small curves and winglets that effectively route the air over the opening.

I remember that as well. Its rarely explained, but those windscreens are very important whe nit comes to aerodynamics. Also, I was reffering to the reason that LMPs are open cockpit cars.

Yes, those windscreens are an important part that doesn't only make it easier on the driver, it's also hugely important for reducing drag. They route the air above the opening, leaving the cockpit (relatively, for 300km/h speeds) out of the "flow".

 

[[empty space]]

The ACO will not enforce closed LMP1 prototypes rules from 2010 onward. They appear to be listening to the manufacturers, Dr. Ullrich of Audi does not like closed prototypes, and most new prototypes chassis/bodies being made today do not comply to the 2010 rules and would be unusable.

At first I was upset, but then images of Le Mans 1999 came into my head, images of the closed Toyota GT1 blasting by the open BMW LMR V12 on the straight, or even Le Mans 2007, coupes battling open cockpit prototypes (908 vs R10). 2 distinctly different looking vehicles battling each other at equal speed.

I think that is better then the LMP1 class being nothing but a bunch of closed cockpit drones that look way too similiar to each other. People always talk of the glory of the group C era, but imo those cars look way too similiar

Besides, it appears with the new double rollover bar/2 seater rules a coupe is not at a disadvantage anymore but rather at an advantage in some aspecs, so I think you will see a nice mix of closed and open prototypes in LMP1

+1 👍

ive often wondered how things would be if we had constant evolutions on the GT-One, CLR-LM, 98 911 gt1 and bmw v12 lmr then thrown in the speed 8 with customer R8s, factory R10s and 908s. not to meantion the pescarolo sports, courage lc70/75, and zytek/creations. that's at least 19 entires if the manufacters that raced between 1998 to current still raced.

oh, and, how could i forget the panoz, the caddys, and the variety of lolas?

the little wind screen on open tops is there to deflect the 200mph wind so its not moving the drivers head around too much. the fact that they were replacing it so often is because different drivers of different height dont sit in the car the same way so each driver has their own screen much like each driver has their own seat.

 

[dougiemeats]

Thanks Earth. Hopefully, neither open nor closed prototypes are universally preferred. I'd like to see a combination of both in the future, similar to what we witnessed in the opening round of the Le Mans Series. I suppose we can finally answer the questions I posted almost two years ago

Peugeot 908 to debut next year: Closed or open?

Closed.

How about the Audi R10's proposed 10-year lifespan? Will Audi build a new car or transform their Le Mans monster into a closed-prototype?

Looks like it won't be necessary to abandon or modify their current racer.

Will someone finally show interest in the Riley prototype?

I'm interested. Unfortunately, I don't have a racing team.

Epsilon Euskadi: http://www.epsiloneuskadi.com/galery/index.htm

Same link from two years ago, but the site has been updated.

Will Porsche build an LMP1?

We'll have to wait a little longer to answer this one.

Will this attract more manufacturers or will they show less interest in the top class? (rephrase: will they focus on LMP2?)

Dome, Lola, Epsilon Euskadi, Aston Martin (as an engine supplier), and Peugeot have cars running or will be running soon. I also remember Radical and Creation revealing sketches of closed prototypes.

And finally; Good decision or bad decision?

Apparently, the ACO have conceded that this was not the appropriate action for 2010.

 

[GTveteran]

Reason, as always, is aerodynamics. A teardrop-silhouette coupe's shape works essentially like a huge wing creating lift, because the air flows faster over the car. That's good for top-end speed (less drag), but bad for the downforce. It's also a problem F1 engineers are facing with the sidepods, for example.

An open prototype basically "breaks up" the flow to the rear, which skips that problem. On top of it, the open top allows easy cooling to the cockpit and easier driver-changes. In the old days, when aerodynamics were quite a bit more basic, the benefits of the open top would be canceled out by the huge increase in drag - but today's modern CFD- and windtunnel-designed cars get around that using small curves and winglets that effectively route the air over the opening.



Yes, those windscreens are an important part that doesn't only make it easier on the driver, it's also hugely important for reducing drag. They route the air above the opening, leaving the cockpit (relatively, for 300km/h speeds) out of the "flow".

I'm sorry but air flowing faster over the car is not lift it is downforce. Air flowing faster under the car is lift. The coupes smooth shape channels the air far more effectively over the car. Although I expect the engineers of the open cars have their ways of overcoming the deficiencies associated with a gaping hole in the middle of the car.

 

[HACKr]

I think that is better then the LMP1 class being nothing but a bunch of closed cockpit drones that look way too similiar to each other. People always talk of the glory of the group C era, but imo those cars look way too similiar

Imo they all look the same now...