Legendary cars and supercars unuseable

[Hogstad]

One of the reasons they dont have Ferrari or Porsche's in the game is because they wanted to much money, for GT4 to be allowed to have their cars in the game. Saw it on that british "Top Gear" series.

And, The Ruf/Porsche thing. If I understand it correctly its almost like Mercedes and AMG. And in that matter, a Mercedes AMG is better in most ways, than just the Mercedes's. But then also quite more expensive.

 

[Condraz23]

Another reason why they didn't feature those cars in the game was because of the contract made between them and Electronic Arts.

 

[Hogstad]

Hmm.. Then why are they featured in Project Gotham Racing 3, wich is a Microsoft game?.. But thats for Xbox though..

 

[Wolfe]

Is it really such a bad thing that Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghinis aren't in the game? Personally i think Japanese cars are better and would rather cane around a track in jgtc car than any of those three manufacturers cars.

So? Other people might like Ferraris, Porsches, and Lamborghinis better than the Japanese cars.

Besides, you can't prefer JGTC cars to "any of those three manufacturers cars"...all three have raced cars in the JGTC.

It's like the Shelby Mustangs... Shelby mods them enough to call em Shelby Mustang Cobras, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's a Shelby orignial. Same goes for the RUFs... They ARE moded Porsches. They aren't better or worse, but at their very heart, the cars in this game are all based on Porsches...

...Any how... this raises a few questions about modefied dealerships... I wonder why we don't have any super sweet modded Lambos and Ferraris? Unless they aren't dumb enough to let another company put a couple of exaust pipes, rims and a few carbon nic nacs on their cars and take the credit for them...

Rufs are based on Porsches, yes. But they aren't only "modded Porsches." Ruf doesn't just modify existing cars -- they build cars from scratch, too. That's why they're recognized as a manufacturer. Porsche wasn't "dumb enough to let another company...take the credit for them." It's simply how German law works.

By all technicalities, GT4 could have had the Ferrari 355 in it, because Gemballa tuned and produced one, and the Gemballa 355 is in Midnight Club 3 Remix.

 

[niky]

Hmmm... Rufs for Porsches... the Cizeta is an MR that goes scorchingly fast and handles like a truck, so it must be a Countach ...A Ferrari 355? Lotus Esprit, maybe... they're very similar... The Audi concept car is a Gallardo in drag... and the ZZII comes close to what a Gallardo should be like.

Ferrari F430... Zonda, perhaps? Or NSX? Same spirit.

The Protomotors Spirra is so slippery, you could badge it with any 70's supercar badge, and it'd feel just right.

We're spoiled for supercars in GT4... you just have to learn not to be so picky about what badge is on them.

 

[Teh_Loserer]

Ugh...SO many times...the old RUF/Porsche thing. Look, it's true that RUF STARTS with a Porsche, but the modifications they make to it are of such a dramatic extent that BY LAW they are classified as an independant auto manufacturer. Way back in the day, Alois Ruf STARTED by modding cars, but that was then. People can argue and bicker all they want, but the fact remains: by law, RUF is a carmaker. No, it's not like Shelby or AMG or Mugen or any other tuner. None of those companies even TRY to claim to be an independant carmaker, so why compare?


CLIFF'S NOTES: RUF IS NOT PORSCHE

 

[GT Pro]

This Ruf/Porsche dilemna has been ongoing in so may threads now...

Anyways, back to what this thread's original aim was, I do agree on a somewhat strong point that there is not enough research and the-like with Australian Vehicles.
Monaro, Commodore; these are the only two well-known names in Gran Turismo 4's Holden showrooms, yet GT4 only give us ONE example of each.

Same goes for the Ford Falcon.

I do realize that these are new grounds that Polyphony Digital has only recently stepped upon, but if they really want to show how every country has evolved and become of; concepts and one-off's such as Holden's 2005 Torana Concept, the 2004 Joss Concept; an Australian Supercar project that has never been since... (Anyone know what happened with this project!?) would be nice to see.

Also the all-famous Holden Efigy Concept, plus other examples of Holden and Ford's Sport Icons, as well as throwing their newly overseas developed Barina and Tigra and so on.

These problems although, are all on the board at the minute for Polyphony Digital Inc..👍

As for licensing rights; Cizeta, RUF etc. these are all as said before, simply a matter of getting around licensing rights, hence the Tickford XR5 in GT3.

 

[damianb]

yeh. give me a Ford Falcon AU or XR8 any day over these non aussie cars

 

[Dave A]

Ugh...SO many times...the old RUF/Porsche thing. Look, it's true that RUF STARTS with a Porsche, but the modifications they make to it are of such a dramatic extent that BY LAW they are classified as an independant auto manufacturer. Way back in the day, Alois Ruf STARTED by modding cars, but that was then. People can argue and bicker all they want, but the fact remains: by law, RUF is a carmaker.

Ruf only mod people ready built Porsche's, the car's they produce are usually based on Porsche frame's, but they arn't modified Porsches. Ruf don't take a Boxster off Porsche and modify it to produce the 3400S, the car is built from the ground up.

 

[Canadian Speed]

Ruf only mod people ready built Porsche's, the car's they produce are usually based on Porsche frame's, but they arn't modified Porsches. Ruf don't take a Boxster off Porsche and modify it to produce the 3400S, the car is built from the ground up.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong... Read the info in the first link I provided... Follow that up with the last one I provided... Tomato, Tomahto... But don't kid yourself... Read the info... They're Porsches... Only moded...

 

[Dave A]

No, if Ruf takes a Boxster frame and engine block then takes a loads of their own parts and then build the car, they haven't modified a Boxster. The reason what they build is an Ruf and not a Porsche is because they use so many of their own parts. They don't take a built Boxster, rip it apart and re-build it, hence they don't modify a Boxster (this applys to all their models).

 

[Canadian Speed]

Dude... Seriously, they do... You can get one of theirs... Or you can simply bring them a Porsche of your own and they'll mod it for you. Even the first line in the Wiki clearly says "At the heart, they're moded Porsches". Find me a credible link stating otherwise... I've provided three links stating my point.

"RUF is a German automobile manufacturer. Although their vehicles are in actuality modified Porsche models, RUF is recognized as an independent manufacturer by the German government, and their vehicles are stamped with individual RUF number-plating and VIN numbers."

That's the first line in the Wiki text about the company.

The slogan for the American RUf site is "Think of Us as a personal trainer for your Porsche".

http://www.rufautocentre.com/newcars/RTurbo.asp

Read that as well... It's all there guys. I don;t doubt they have some of their own cars... But the ones we have in GT are moded Porsches...

 

[Famine]

Read that as well... It's all there guys. I don;t doubt they have some of their own cars... But the ones we have in GT are moded Porsches...

The ones in GT4 - and GT3 - were originally sold to customers, and first registered on the road, as Ruf models, not Porsche models. The CTR2, CTR Yellowbird, BTR, RGT and 3400S were/are all Ruf models and none of the individual cars were ever registered as Porsches. Ever.

 

[Dave A]

Dude... Seriously, they do... You can get one of theirs... Or you can simply bring them a Porsche of your own and they'll mod it for you. Even the first line in the Wiki clearly says "At the heart, they're moded Porsches". Find me a credible link stating otherwise... I've provided three links stating my point.

Yes you can take your Porsche to them and have them modify it, I never said you couldn't. But I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the car's they build from the ground up, there is no base model for them to modify, they don't take already built 911's and Boxster's off Porsche and alter them, the only Porsche's they alter are when a private owner asks them to alter theirs. Sure they do use Porsche parts on most of their models, but the fact is all they take off Porsche is a few parts, parts that have never been part of any complete model. So if there was never any complete model there, how are they modifying it?

"RUF is a German automobile manufacturer. Although their vehicles are in actuality modified Porsche models, RUF is recognized as an independent manufacturer by the German government, and their vehicles are stamped with individual RUF number-plating and VIN numbers."

Yes, because they were never Porsches to be modified, a modified Porsche will be registered as a Porsche and have Porsche plating and a Porsche VIN.

Read that as well... It's all there guys. I don;t doubt they have some of their own cars... But the ones we have in GT are moded Porsches...

No they arn't, they couldn't be or PD would need the Porsche license, they have similar bodywork to Porsche's but they were built part by part by Ruf, Porsche had nothing to do with the assembly barring proving the odd part, note I said part, not car.

 

[Kent]

RUF, is at its heart, a Porsche based production company.

Has anyone here thought to go to the RUF official website?
Here's a good page to show that even RUF themselves recognize that their cars are highly modified Porsches.
http://www.ruf-automobile.de/content.php?seite=seiten/home_de.php&rubrik=&id=&lang=en

Think of RUF like this...

Porsche manufactures Chasis.
RUF builds the chasis into a car using parts of their own.

Even on the main page of the RUF site they call themselves specialist in Conversions.

The issue regarding VIN numbers and whatnot is simply a matter of property changing hands and the actual commercial sale of an object.

Buy a car you get a VIN, buy parts and you don't get one... RUF buys parts and sells them built up as cars. Since they bought parts and not a car a VIN is never designated.

Porsche puts a VIN on their car when it is sold as a built car.
RUF buys the chasis and parts to build and in-turn is not buying a car.

So when you buy a brand-new conversion from RUF it is plated with a RUF VIN since the car was never built as anything but a RUF (and every car must have a VIN).

The car is not a tuned Porsche unless you bring in your built Porsche and have them tune it.

Even so, RUF acknowledges that they build Conversions of Porsches to match RUF specs.

Bottom line:
If RUF produced 100% original cars the models they sell would be marked as RUFs and not RUF conversions.

Look under "Our Models" on the official RUF page... Their models are listed as "our converted models" and nothing else.

Here you will get an overview about our converted models.

If you have any questions about conversions for your car, please contact us.

 

[Dave A]

Not many companies will build a car 100% on it's own (thuogh RUF do have one, I don't think it's been released yet, but its being built anyway), SEAT's are based on VW's, the Audi Q7 is based on a Gallardo ect, the Jagaur XJ220 had the same engine as the Metro 6R4. Like I said, if Ruf chose to put different bodies on their car's this debate would never happen, they'd sell less model, but the debate wouldn't happen. Ruf having a link to Porsche is a good thing for RUF, and if you click the site you'll see that that bit about converted models is actually talking about converted model's, if you take your 997 to them they can turn it into this etc. But having that link to Porsche means that more people see an Ruf and instead of thinking "another generic low volume car that'll break down all the time", they think of a "modded/tuned Porsche", regardless of it being a modded Porsche or not, that's what the casual view see's and that means that the rich guy that's looking for just the right high class sports car for him is more likely to consider an RUF. RUF's are based on Porsche part's, but the models they build from scratch are built from scratch from a pile of parts never fitted to a car, not a pile of parts ripped off a car, that makes a big difference.

The 3400S is less a modded Porsche Boxster than the SEAT Leon is a modded VW Golf and a SEAT Leon isn't a modded Golf.

Another note is that RUF have been around since the 1930's, but the first time they did anything based on a Porsche or Porsche part was 1975. Since then they have based their cars on Porsche chassis', but sharing a chassis and engine block with another car doesn't make two cars the saem or one a modded version of the other. Taking a fully built car and changing it's parts would, and RUF do do that, but they do build car's from scratch as well and we can see some of thoes in GT games and PGR3 (we can see the R50 as well in PGR3, that's the 100% modl I mentioned earlier).

 

[Kent]

Actually, L4S, if you look at the "our models" section it is clearly stated that "our models" are here and "convert your car" is there...



further more, to argue based on reasoning alone...

Why would RUF only advertise and link the "converted models" if they actually sold another kind of RUF?

Wouldn't it be much more profitable and effective to advertise the "non-porsche" based cars?

Oddly, they don't have anything about that.

And so once again I point to their own words on their own website as well as the simple reasoning I showed above regarding the "VIN" number issues.

Edit:
I would like to mention that my intention is not to say RUF is not an auto-manufacturer.
I have intended to say this whole time that RUF is a manufacturer based on the use of some porsche products. 👍
(chasis and body panels much like an "ac shelby cobra")

 

[Famine]

Click on the link, Kent...

Notice how some of the conversion models I highlighted in a red box don't appear in the bit below, and some of the models in the bit below don't appear in the red box... And that even when models appear in both sections (Ruf 3400S, Ruf RGT, Ruf TurboR) there are two pages for the model depending on whether it's a Porsche-to-Ruf or Ruf original.

That's because they make their own cars and will convert.

 

[Der Alta]

In this debate, I'd like to interject this This Thread

The Ruf R40.

and, the article

 

[Kent]

Famine, DA,
I bow down to the wisdom of more knowledge-able members.

👍

However, I've got to clear something up in my own mind...
(red box vs not listed in red box)
1) Do cars like the Rt 12, R Kompressor and RK Spyder use a Porsche Chasis?
2) Do the above 3 use Porsche parts at all?
3) Same questions as above only replacing "Rt 12, R Kompressor and RK Spyder" with "RGT, BTR and 3400S"... ? (not as customer based conversions but as cars bought from RUF)
4) Same for the Dakara (all those questions).

Thanks for the feedback.
I've spent time looking more and more into the site and RUF doesn't seem to say all that much of what they do use from Porsche, only what they don't.

Thanks again. 👍

Also,
I see all of the "red boxed" cars are availible from RUF but can also be created using a "conversion."

My question is, when you buy from RUF originally, are you not simply buying a built car from RUF that uses the same base parts used when a customer purchases a conversion?

 

[Famine]

Famine,
I see all of the "red boxed" cars are availible from RUF but can also be created using a "conversion."

My question is, when you buy from RUF originally, are you not simply buying a built car from RUF that uses the same base parts used when a customer purchases a conversion?

I'd imagine that the answer is "yes".

You're looking at the manufacturer fulfilling a legal obligation to the local DOT (TUV in this case) to say that a vehicle described as "x" matches exactly the specification of "x" that they have submitted as vehicle copyright. So a Ruf RGT must have the exact specification of a Ruf RGT, whether it's an aftermarket conversion or a prebuilt vehicle.

 

[Dave A]

I see all of the "red boxed" cars are availible from RUF but can also be created using a "conversion."

My question is, when you buy from RUF originally, are you not simply buying a built car from RUF that uses the same base parts used when a customer purchases a conversion?

I think so, the conversions are pretty much complete re-builds of what was the Porsche, but a converted Porsche is still a Porsche legaly, the built from scratch models never were part of a Porsche, they have parts built by Porsche, the completed spec of a scratch built car, I'd assume does match that of the comparable conversion, but the fact that it's built from the Chassis up means that it's not a modified car in any sense of the phrase.

 

[damianb]

What is the price of a RUF compared to a Porche?

are they significantly cheaper?

 

[Dave A]

They cost more.

 

[Famine]

Significantly, yes. Cheaper, no.

The word you're looking for is "pricier".

 

[BMWteamPTG]

pricier but worth the extra bucks. whether you get a "modded" porsche or an original RUF, i think it is as good if not better quality than porsche.

thats a hard thing to say but porsche is a name that never gets put down.

regardless, i still love porsche and RUF...if i had to choose, it would come down to $$$ tho

 

[Kent]

Afternoon now and the air is cool, so is my head.

I'm gonna have to say that Famine, DA, L4S, and anyone else saying RUF is a manufacturer of its own is right. 👍

And with that, I'm out.
This is a thread about RUF not being tuned Porsches... or... Lambos, Ferraris, and other "locked thread" material.
DA, Famine, do either of you have a broom?
(do as you wish lol)

 

[Canadian Speed]

The dif between the red box models and the other cars it that if it's a RUF original, THEY have to buy the car for you, then make it. If it's a "conversion", then you've already got the car and bring it to them... It's really that simple. For further evedince, look into why they no longer make the "Yellowbirds". Isn't it strange that they stopped making that car once Porsche no longer made the base model needed to make it... OH, sorry, I know, it's another coincidence... Funny how RUf started making their version of the SUV at the same time as Prosche as well... That's another amazing coincidence. AS stated before, they mod Porsches. Originals mean that you get the car direct from the company, never having gotten a "Porsche" first. Meaing it was never an "owned" Porsche... It was still a Prosche, only it never made it to the commercial market. The "modified" ones mean you went in with a Prosche, they moded it, changed the VINs and all that jazz... The two models are exactly the same in every way once the final prodecut has been amde, onyl the tranformation process is a bit different. It's like the Shelby Mustang Cobras. You bring them a Ford Mustang... They add parts to the engine, the body, add a few nic nacs, change the VIN and all that jazz, and VOILA! A Shelby Mustang Cobra... The only difference is that Ford no longer makes the models needed for the "Eleanore" Shelby, so if you don't have your own, you're S.O.L. Same could be said for Saleen Mustangs, or even Callaway Corvette mods...

 

[Wolfe]

The dif between the red box models and the other cars it that if it's a RUF original, THEY have to buy the car for you, then make it. If it's a "conversion", then you've already got the car and bring it to them... It's really that simple. For further evedince, look into why they no longer make the "Yellowbirds". Isn't it strange that they stopped making that car once Porsche no longer made the base model needed to make it... OH, sorry, I know, it's another coincidence... Funny how RUf started making their version of the SUV at the same time as Prosche as well... That's another amazing coincidence.

See, this is where you're wrong. Ruf doesn't buy Porsches and mod them for you. They buy the basic components -- the chassis, engine block, some of the core bodywork, etc. -- and build the car, from scratch, using a lot of their own parts.

This is why they're recognized by the government as a manufacturer.

No one's saying that Ruf's cars aren't based on Porsches, which is what you seem to be trying to argue against...you're simply wrong when you say that Rufs are Porsches, or that they simply modify existing ones.

 

[Uncle Harry]

I like the license plate in GT4 that is on a RUF, the one that looks like a 911, which has "P 911" on it.
In all honesty would RUF be in the game if they made cars that looked like Ford Asta or Opel Fiesta. No, they would not.
Is the reason RUF are in the game because they look like Porsche's? Or are they there on their own merit. How many people knew about RUF before GT?