Less HP or more weight?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dan360
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  • Less horsepower

    Votes: 24 57.1%
  • More weight

    Votes: 18 42.9%

  • Total voters
    42
Messages
881
United Kingdom
London, England
A dilemma that faces me in online races, when I am slightly over the PP limit. What do you think?
 
For me it usually depends on the car and the track. If I'm not worried about top speed, then I'll lower hp. If I want a higher top speed, I'll add weight. Then on cars with adjustable aero, I will lower downforce if I want higher top speed.

So I can't really vote for either. I'll vote for hp though, because after aero, that's what I change the most.
 
I'll either remove or downgrade the turbo and/or cut back on the areo, but hp is also one I'll go for, adding weight is last.
 
Depends on the track and (somewhat more rarely) the car.

Completely true! In Tsukuba, Eiger or London for instance I'd go for less hp. In Spa, Monza, Fuji I'd add weight. In Laguna though, I'd test and compare both options to find the best for the exact car I'd race with.
 
I love heavy cars, but mostly it's something that you need to test and think about what kind of track are going to attack.
 
On most tracks in GT5 you'll have better times with more weight/more HP.
Light cars have too much disadvantage with the current PP system, except a few ones.
 
Definitely add balllast, if it's not as wanted, I place it more in front or to the back. But for a little lowering of pp, allways weight.
 
Whatever helps achieve better handling balance. Some cars only wake up when you add a little ballast after exhausting all the spring adjustment possibilities.
 
I dont think GT5 got the weight thing right so take advantage and add kg's (as long as its not too much). On road cars you can afford to lose a little downforce before power too!
 
More weight for sure, because you can always move the ballast around to make the car more balanced and thus better performing. 👍
 
Both have their merits and it's entirely dependent on the car and the track in question, but in most cases, at least in theory, adding mass is going to hurt your car more than losing power (at least in GT5's system).

For example, if you're doing a wide-open track (i.e. an oval), horsepower is by far the most important as that will improve your top speed, while acceleration and cornering aren't tremendously important on those tracks. Meanwhile, an extremely tight track will obviously benefit more from lower weight than additional horsepower as you'll rarely ever come near top speed and speed coming out of corners will be more important as well as acceleration coming out of corners.

As I mentioned, the car is the other factor, specifically the power curve. If you have an engine that hits peak torque near the red line (i.e. most Honda engines), you're sacrificing very little power over your usable spectrum, since it's just the last few hundred RPM that are being lowered and the area on the curve (which translates to average HP) lost is not very substantial. It'll lower your top speed on the aforementioned wide-open tracks, but on most tracks, you won't miss that extra power a whole lot. Meanwhile, vehicles that have high-stroke motors (i.e. Muscle cars) get hit hard by power limitation since they typically hit peak power well before the redline and they lose a lot of area on the power curve (they'll lose a semi-circle while the previously mentioned Honda motors will lose a quarter-circle).

Here's a sample car (Corvette ZR1 RM) that gets hit very hard by power limitation to meet a 650 pp limit:

Full-Power, 1300 kg (200 kg all the way to the front), 25/30 aero:
DSC02744.jpg


84% Power, 1100 kg, 30/30 aero:
DSC02743.jpg


In the 84% Power version, it hits peak power at 4600 RPM (shortly above peak torque at 4500 RPM in both examples, which is why I used this as an example) and basically stays at peak power right until 7100-ish RPM. While this would be fantastic if you could use ultra-wide gears (would allow for an insanely high final gear ratio), it's just not possible in GT5 without making your lower gears way too short. In fact, you'd have to set all gears 1-5 at the highest setting and gear 6 at the lowest to cover that spread in the 6th gear. It would be horrendous. In most cases, you're going to have a 1500 RPM spread, maybe a 2000 RPM spread and the spread usually gets shorter in the higher gears.

The highest spread I could get that had the same RPM spread in every gear allowed for a 2100 RPM spread. Now, in a 2100 RPM spread on the full-power engine, you're losing 133 peak horsepower and, based on the rough semi-circle shape of the power curve, you're losing an average of 39 horsepower across that spread, which is a significant loss.

Area of a semi-circle = (Pi*r^2)/2 ((3.14159*133^2)/2 = ~27786)
Now we want to find r for half the area ...
27786/2 = (Pi*r^2)/2, solve for r. /2 on opposite sides cancel each other out.
SQRT(27786/Pi) = ~94
133 - 94 = 39

So we have a constant 690 HP over that spread compared to an average 729 HP over that spread, which means it's a 5.6% loss of average power. Like I said, that's a significant loss. However, adding 200 kg adds 18.2% more mass PLUS you had to sacrifice some downforce.

What does this mean ?

Well, acceleration = force/mass, with horsepower translating directly to force. With such a simple equation, it's quite easy to see that the 18.2% mass increase outweighs the 5.6% power gain in the full-power example, so the full-power car is going to accelerate slower, especially out of the gate. Theoretically, at least at speeds where air resistance isn't much of a factor, the lower-weight version should out accelerate the higher-power version by a pretty decent amount.

Edit: One thing I did forget to take into account (it was 3 AM local time, forgive me) was that you can narrow your gears with a custom transmission. Obviously, if you narrow the RPM spread as you go up in gears and shift properly (at the point where power in gear 4 = power in gear 5, for example), you can further increase the average horsepower utilized, thus increasing acceleration. Downsides to this method are a different shift point in each gear, so you'll have to memorize them and you'll need to use wider gears at low speeds, so you'll have a further disadvantage in terms of low-speed acceleration.

Acceleration = Advantage Lower-Power, Lower-Weight but can be mitigated at higher speeds with gearing/shifting and overcome at very high speeds due to air resistance.

Obviously, more weight is going to hurt your ability to corner, plus the fact that you lost downforce and the weight had to be placed as far forward as the game will allow is only going to make matters worse. In addition, the lower-power, lower-weight vehicle is less likely to spin its tires and, combined with the lower weight, it means that the tires won't wear out as fast.

Cornering = Advantage Lower-Power, Lower-Weight

The top speed of a vehicle is determined by its ability to overcome resistance and, barring a gearing-related restriction, it basically comes down to Force (directly related to horsepower) = Opposing Force (air resistance + rolling resistance). The increase in mass will contribute a marginal increase in rolling resistance, but the big one here is air resistance (which is a cubic function of velocity. i.e. doubling speed increases air resistance by 2^3 or 8-fold), so the 133 HP (19.3%) should allow for a CURT(1.193) = 1.0605 or 6.05% increase in top speed with proper gearing. I didn't run a test run, but using my B-Spec driver in a race, he hit about 315 km/h on the straight on the Indy, so I'll assume that's pretty close to top speed. Theoretically, the High-Power, High-Weight example should hit a top speed of at least 334 km/h (208 MPH, it'll be even higher since downforce was reduced and, thus, resistance reduced), which would make a very large difference around a track like Indy or the new DLC Oval (forget the name ATM).

Top-Speed = Advantage Higher-Power, Higher-Weight

Side Note: GT5 has terrible power/torque graphs.
 
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It's actually quite a tricky dilemma, but most of the time I just lower the HP. Just because I really don't like adding extra weight to my Car.
 
Jmac, I read your entire post, and the one thing I don't understand is:

Why did you ballast the front of the vette?
Lowers PP

If I leave it in the center, front downforce has to be reduced to the minimum 15 in order to hit 650 pp (30 was already the minimum on the rear).

Either way, it still proves the point. 15/30 downforce with the ballast in the center will have higher top speed and better balance, but worse braking and a lower cornering ability on high-speed corners. In either case, the lower-weight option out-accelerates and out-corners the higher-powered option.

Of course, this is all just physics theory; whether or not that translates to the game, I don't know and, at 3:30 AM local time, I have nowhere near the dexterity nor the will to find out :P
 
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