Lift Off Oversteer absent from low powered FF cars?

[Stiggles]

There's a trick I use on most tuner cars which balances out some of the handling issues:
- Get a stock car
- Buy just a fully adjustable suspension
- Set the alignment of the car to the real world factory specs, set srpings to factory specs (or to GT5 default by looking in the stock suspension settings)
- Drive it and feel the car behave like it (mostly) should. You might need to tweak the dampers and anti-roll bars to balance out the car a bit, but there shouldn't be that many changes needed.

I've tried this method on the Subaru's (my real world car is one so I have loads of documentation lying around on suspension specifications), the S2000, the RUFs, the Evo, and the Corvette. All of them responded very well to the "fix the bad default alignment" approach. PD's default alignment settings (with 0.2 rear toe) is extremely odd for front wheel drive cars. Most FFs I've come across have rear toe zeroed out across all four corners (actually, the only cars I've found with a sizeable amount of stock rear toe are the S2000 and RUFs, the rest have toe out or nothing at all).

 

[niky]

Would be nice if someone would post settings for all 1000+ cars.

One question for all of you complaining about no lift off oversteer... do your tires make noise when you brake coming into a corner?

If the answer is yes then it's time to read up on GT5 and what the sounds mean. YMMV.

That's actually a good point. I get better laptimes by turning up the volume to listen to the tires. Too much squeal means that you've got too much lock going on (okay, okay, only the Brits call it "lock"... the rest of us call it steering angle) and you're overloading the front tires. Listening to the squeal teaches you to be more gentle with steering... especially important on the DS3, where it's too easy to go full stick without thinking about it.

 

[SavageEvil]

...

SavageEvil ... I'm not sure you are considering engine braking in the correct context. Any time you are not on the throttle and the car is moving and in gear, you are engine braking. Engine braking is very useful in slowing you for corner entry and assists the brakes. Without engine braking your braking zones would need to be longer and you would overheat and wear brakes much more quickly.

You mention heel toe techniques. Heel toe is used to downshift and use engine braking without causing it to lock the drive wheels.

Lift-off oversteer uses engine braking in a sense (if you lift a lot) to correct or modify your line in a corner. It's very useful and I use it all the time in autocross.

Honestly, lift-oversteer is caused by your differential locking at a predetermined point which if your car is at a higher slip angle will cause oversteer if you are already turning. This locking is what causes unsettling in the cars' behavior. I was sure heel-toe is used to keep from engine braking by allowing your right foot to apply gas while on the clutch to bring the engine revs up to prevent your differential from locking up from dropping below the revs required to be in the gear you are shifting to? I'm pretty sure race cars have incredible brakes that resist fade, and cool quickly to ensure that the driver can used them time and time again to slow his high performance machine down. Engine braking is useful at times, like on slick surfaces or for street driving, but I doubt it has much use in racing. Well when race cars still used sticks, now a days cars come with Double Clutch systems and paddle shifters, sigh. Anyone can have manual type precision with automatic no lift shifting.

I'm not absolutely sure about heel-toe technique, but that is how I drove in GT5 Prologue and some of GT5, I'm a bit upset that it's nearly impossible to perform a power shift(no lift), what in the world happened to that?

 

[TouringBubble]

Honestly, lift-oversteer is caused by your differential locking at a predetermined point which if your car is at a higher slip angle will cause oversteer if you are already turning. This locking is what causes unsettling in the cars' behavior. I was sure heel-toe is used to keep from engine braking by allowing your right foot to apply gas while on the clutch to bring the engine revs up to prevent your differential from locking up from dropping below the revs required to be in the gear you are shifting to? I'm pretty sure race cars have incredible brakes that resist fade, and cool quickly to ensure that the driver can used them time and time again to slow his high performance machine down. Engine braking is useful at times, like on slick surfaces or for street driving, but I doubt it has much use in racing. Well when race cars still used sticks, now a days cars come with Double Clutch systems and paddle shifters, sigh. Anyone can have manual type precision with automatic no lift shifting.

I'm not absolutely sure about heel-toe technique, but that is how I drove in GT5 Prologue and some of GT5, I'm a bit upset that it's nearly impossible to perform a power shift(no lift), what in the world happened to that?

There is a basic point that I've made, and you seem to have missed it. If the clutch is not depressed and you're off the throttle, you are under engine braking. You mention sequential transmissions ... on those, the clutch is essentially always engaged and power is always transferred to the wheels. When those cars come off the throttle, they are under engine braking. When you approach a corner you downshift not only to set up for the corner exit, but to initiate engine braking to aid in slowing the car.

I think with your mention of differential lock, you are thinking of a RWD car, where the rear wheels would lock if you downshifted improperly (no heel/toe). When the rear wheels lock you would get oversteer. On a FWD car, the fronts would lock, creating understeer ... the opposite of what you're talking about.

The point of heel/toe is to match the RPM of the engine to the RPM of the transmission in the lower gear to keep the wheels from locking. You are correct on that. Doing it properly actually encourages engine braking. Doing it improperly locks the wheels. These are two different things.

 

[TouringBubble]

Also, I think it helps to clarify what "oversteer" means. Oversteer simply means that the the rear tires lose grip before the front tires, causing the vehicle to, basically, turn more than the actual steering input.

So, lift-off oversteer simply means that when the throttle is lifted there is a shift of grip bias toward the front as the rear loses a little grip and the front gains some. It doesn't mean you have to add countersteer as it's often a very slight shift in grip and a minor adjustment to your line.

 

[Blangadanger]

Blangadanger: What tire/wheel package you have on the Cooper S? And what year model? While I've found that it's quite possible to get lift-off oversteer in a new MINI, there's a time and place for it... if you drive properly on a racetrack, on street tires, there's usually too much rear grip and too little from grip (on a standard MINI) to get it crossed up. An autocross is different, as is a rather slippery real-world road. We had Rauno Altonen come over to demo in a Mini Cooper S during the launch of the anniversary JCW, and as they gave him a 6AT... and worse... it was on 17s... he needed a lot of speed, a hearty Scandinavian flick and some handbrake to get the car to even rotate... and even then, it wasn't that much.

Always practice in a safe place. A deserted roundabout allows you to build up speed in a circle, then ease off the gas in varying degrees at varying engine speeds to see what does what. even safer if you have an empty parking lot to do this in.

Thanks TouringBubble and Niky for the responses. I drive a 2009 MCS on stock 16" wheels with 195/55R16 size tires. They are run-flats though, so that affects my handling capabilities a bit. From what TouringBubble described, I think I have done this several times going down abandoned parking decks in the city (sadly there a lot these days due to the economy), but maybe the changes in elevation also attributes to slight rear looseness when coming out of the turn. I'd like to experiment with the concept on a flatter surface to see if it helps with turning.

My run-flats had a ridiculous amount of grip when I first got them which made understeer very apparent, especially on braking. I'm considering swapping the run-flats with some proper performance tires, but I haven't done it yet.

 

[TouringBubble]

Run-flats ... ewwwww. I'm sorry you have to ride on those.

If you're looking for a good tire, the Hankook RS3 would be good for a light car like the Mini. It's a really soft tire though and will wear out quickly. If you want something to last a little longer, look in to the BFG G-Force Sports, which aren't nearly as grippy, but will be lightyears better than your run-flats and their concrete sidewalls.

I race on Kumho XSs, but they are better for heavier cars and not so great in the rain. I wouldn't DD on them.

 

[machine4321]

Machine, that sounds like your driving style perhaps. When do you want it to rotate? What part of the corner? What type of corner?

Also, are you running a variable center diff?

Well begining to mid coner just to roate the back end before putting the power on. Now that i think about it i might have bought the adjustable diff. and i think it come stock with the variable. mabye i need to put it back on.

One thing i did notice is with abs OFF the car seemed to be much more tail happy on braking.

 

[WolfpackS2k]

I haven't driven a lot of FF cars in the game but when I did and tried lift throttle oversteer to help with rotation in a turn I got nothing. And these were all stock vehicles. Maybe tinkering with the suspension settings could help.

Or you could probably set up the car in the game for lift throttle oversteer pretty easily by using grippier tires in the front (for example sport soft tires front, sport medium tires rear). In fact back when I used to AutoX my GSR I ran a few events with Hoosier slicks in the front and BFGoodrich All Season tires in the rear. Combined with Koni adjustable shocks set to full hard in the back made for quite the wild ride if you lifted abruptly mid turn! Great for rotation though:tup:

 

[TouringBubble]

You need to experiment more with using trail braking to rotate the car on corner entry. Here is my approach to those situations ...

Brake hard and straight.
Turn in a little hot while backing off the brakes to trail brake in to the corner with some light rotation.
If your line is off at this point, you can modulate the brakes to move the grip around and correct.
Roll on the throttle a little just before the apex.
If it begins to push, let off (lift-off oversteer) to get some rotation.
Find your track out point, roll on the throttle, dial out steering and go flat as soon as you can without blowing your exit. Use lift-off oversteer here as well if needed.

Hope that helps.

 

[SavageEvil]

Thanks TouringBubble and Niky for the responses. I drive a 2009 MCS on stock 16" wheels with 195/55R16 size tires. They are run-flats though, so that affects my handling capabilities a bit. From what TouringBubble described, I think I have done this several times going down abandoned parking decks in the city (sadly there a lot these days due to the economy), but maybe the changes in elevation also attributes to slight rear looseness when coming out of the turn. I'd like to experiment with the concept on a flatter surface to see if it helps with turning.

My run-flats had a ridiculous amount of grip when I first got them which made understeer very apparent, especially on braking. I'm considering swapping the run-flats with some proper performance tires, but I haven't done it yet.

Ouch my friend, I had the same problems when I had a '06 330xi run flats. Those tires are super heavy and because they increase your unsprung weight the suspension geometry was set to deal with having those tires on your car, only way to change to regular tires is to have your suspension overhauled or you may have even more troubling issues by not getting your suspension reworked to accommodate lighter regular tires. BMW are notorious for forcing this mess on you, you have to buy these run flats and they warn you against using normal tires and what not. I say get an old clunker for cheap and use that to drift around, as expensive cars that use run flats aren't going to be good on your wallet.

thanks TouringBubbles for the clarification. Off to play some GT5 now.

 

[Griffith500]

There is a basic point that I've made, and you seem to have missed it. If the clutch is not depressed and you're off the throttle, you are under engine braking. You mention sequential transmissions ... on those, the clutch is essentially always engaged and power is always transferred to the wheels. When those cars come off the throttle, they are under engine braking. When you approach a corner you downshift not only to set up for the corner exit, but to initiate engine braking to aid in slowing the car.

I think with your mention of differential lock, you are thinking of a RWD car, where the rear wheels would lock if you downshifted improperly (no heel/toe). When the rear wheels lock you would get oversteer. On a FWD car, the fronts would lock, creating understeer ... the opposite of what you're talking about.

The point of heel/toe is to match the RPM of the engine to the RPM of the transmission in the lower gear to keep the wheels from locking. You are correct on that. Doing it properly actually encourages engine braking. Doing it improperly locks the wheels. These are two different things.

Given that engine braking only affects the driven wheels there is obviously a difference in the extremes with rear- and front-drive cars. However, for modest amounts of engine braking on a dry surface, the "differential action" will cause the "inside" tyre to be braked more than the outside, hence effecting a yaw (within the limits of available traction), just like it would with a rear-wheel-drive car - overcoming the tyres' traction budget usually comes after the initial yaw set up by the differential. Obviously, pushed to the limits of grip (e.g. in the wet or ice / snow) you will be more likely to get understeer from engine braking in a front-driver, and the "snap" in a rear-driver can be scarily fast. Heel and toe, then, is to prevent the engine from nabbing too much of the available traction on deceleration, in what is only a short-lived transition.

------------------------

I get plenty of lift-off oversteer in FF cars, at least the appropriate ones. Older FFs in general will oversteer more, and some "sporty" modern FFs will too. The MkV Golf (as tested on the Nürburgring seasonal event) is a good example of a car that just oversteers on lift-off - almost neutral, but just on the "good" side of neutral. However, I've no idea how accurate that behaviour is (on "Comfort Softs"). Tyre choice is critical, I definitely concur on that.

As far as using lift-off oversteer as a tool is concerned, I actually only use it mid corner on longer curves, or to enter fast kinks, or to otherwise correct my line. A similar effect can be achieved with "left-foot-braking" in a front-driver - it's great on the uphill turn 3 on Grand Valley, for instance. It should be noted that my impressions come with driving without ABS and brake balance usually set to a rather road-unfriendly 5/3 (62.5% front) in GT5.

Judging by the way suspension setups can be exploited in GT5, it's clear that the way it handles these sorts of dynamics is perhaps not that great.

 

[CoolColJ]

The only car that has reliable lift off oversteer are some of the RUFs, with a wheel, less so with a pad

At least in the first 2 gears. With a pad you return to neutral far too quickly for it to hapopen, and there are hidden aids preventing it most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3RSt-fsgFU

 

[TouringBubble]

Given that engine braking only affects the driven wheels there is obviously a difference in the extremes with rear- and front-drive cars. However, for modest amounts of engine braking on a dry surface, the "differential action" will cause the "inside" tyre to be braked more than the outside, hence effecting a yaw (within the limits of available traction), just like it would with a rear-wheel-drive car - overcoming the tyres' traction budget usually comes after the initial yaw set up by the differential. Obviously, pushed to the limits of grip (e.g. in the wet or ice / snow) you will be more likely to get understeer from engine braking in a front-driver, and the "snap" in a rear-driver can be scarily fast. Heel and toe, then, is to prevent the engine from nabbing too much of the available traction on deceleration, in what is only a short-lived transition.

I get plenty of lift-off oversteer in FF cars, at least the appropriate ones. Older FFs in general will oversteer more, and some "sporty" modern FFs will too. The MkV Golf (as tested on the Nürburgring seasonal event) is a good example of a car that just oversteers on lift-off - almost neutral, but just on the "good" side of neutral. However, I've no idea how accurate that behaviour is (on "Comfort Softs"). Tyre choice is critical, I definitely concur on that.

As far as using lift-off oversteer as a tool is concerned, I actually only use it mid corner on longer curves, or to enter fast kinks, or to otherwise correct my line. A similar effect can be achieved with "left-foot-braking" in a front-driver - it's great on the uphill turn 3 on Grand Valley, for instance. It should be noted that my impressions come with driving without ABS and brake balance usually set to a rather road-unfriendly 5/3 (62.5% front) in GT5.

Judging by the way suspension setups can be exploited in GT5, it's clear that the way it handles these sorts of dynamics is perhaps not that great.

I have no idea why you quoted me and then said the exact same thing I've been saying in this entire thread. Please read back through my posts and the post I was replying to. I was giving an explanation of how engine braking and locking the drive wheels differ.

But, thanks for repeating all of the points I've made in the thread. You even gave the same example of how to use lift-off oversteer and even tested with the same MKV GTI. See my earlier post if you want my opinion of how it compares to a real MKV GTI.

It's good to know that others agree with my points.

 

[Griffith500]

I have no idea why you quoted me and then said the exact same thing I've been saying in this entire thread. Please read back through my posts and the post I was replying to. I was giving an explanation of how engine braking and locking the drive wheels differ.

But, thanks for repeating all of the points I've made in the thread. You even gave the same example of how to use lift-off oversteer and even tested with the same MKV GTI. See my earlier post if you want my opinion of how it compares to a real MKV GTI.

It's good to know that others agree with my points.

Meh, I read all the posts. Sorry I didn't attribute all of them to you...

I cited the Golf MkV because it had already been mentioned, that much was a conscious effort, for sure. As for "repeating points", I don't see why that matters anyway - I was contributing to the discussion in general by that point, perhaps I ought to have drawn a line under it. I agreed with (probably) everything else you said, but:

I had a hunch that the post you were replying to wasn't really talking about "locking wheels" in the same way as you were. As an extreme example, using heel-toe to perfectly match engine speed can still overwhelm the tyres' grip (if you've got crappy tyres or a bad-ass engine) to the point that they might as well be locked, but they're not. More importantly, the differential torque exerted on the driven wheels can be so strong that the yaw effect can feel like a "lock-up", even when all tyres are well within their traction limits.

It probably didn't help that you stated FWD cars will understeer on diff "lock up" (whatever one might take that to mean) but then didn't (re-)clarify that the differential effect contributes to oversteer in FWD cars just the same as it can in RWD cars.

 

[TouringBubble]

The post I was replying to mention "differential lockup." I assumed that he meant it in terms of something like a clutch kick or similar where the initial torque delivered to the wheels causes them to lock and slide for a moment. The same can happen with a botched downshift, which is the example the poster used.

To be honest, I'm not familiar with yaw effects through different differential setups and all that. I can only assume you know what you're talking about there. =)

 

[Sir-Shoelace]

threads like this are why GTPlanet is the only place i go for anything to do with GT. perfect video coolcolj

 

[niky]

You very rarely get wheel-lock in a front driver when you let off the gas... simply because there's too much weight up front and letting off shifts even more weight up front. (Except on dirt, where lift-off can have you sliding into the ditch as badly as braking too hard) But the engine-braking is still there, which is why it's important for lift-off oversteer in front-drivers, and it can color the event and behavior very dramatically.

 

[TouringBubble]

I know Niky. It would take something else to drop the CoF for it to happen, like water or ice (as Griffith said) to make the wheels lock. I was simply trying to explain the difference between locking the wheels and engine braking using the poster's own terms and references.

 

[Mysterious R]

I agree with the rest, but lift-off oversteer is specifically referring to oversteer caused by un-weighting the rear tires by lifting the throttle in a corner. That's not steering related.

Oversteer->steering, two things very related as if you were travelling in a straight line there would be none. Anyone that has crashed an ITR(DC2 anyways) from oversteer probably had no idea what they were doing.

 

[TouringBubble]

Oversteer->steering, two things very related as if you were travelling in a straight line there would be none. Anyone that has crashed an ITR(DC2 anyways) from oversteer probably had no idea what they were doing.

You have a valid point. However, lift-off oversteer is not initiated by steering, which was your claim and what I was replying to in my post.

You turn in, encounter understeer then lift the throttle to encourage a change in friction at the tires, and therefore a change in direction of travel. This is where the term "steering with the throttle" comes from. In a steady cornering state, you can induce oversteer or understeer with throttle modulation only.

I hope that is clear.

 

[TouringBubble]

I had a hunch that the post you were replying to wasn't really talking about "locking wheels" in the same way as you were.

I re-read the post and you may be correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[eight6er]

Anyone that has crashed an ITR(DC2 anyways) from oversteer probably had no idea what they were doing.

You're probably right, but I think someone who can't get a ITR (yes DC2) to oversteer, would also not know what they are doing.