Lift Off Oversteer absent from low powered FF cars?

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VBR
Also, modluating the throttle to recover the rear like you would in a in a RWD car real life car doesn't work in GT5
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This is something I miss. Though it seems to work a bit on some cars (slower ~200hp cars with comfort tyres like my completely stock bmw 2002 turbo.). Actually the whole game seems more realistic with comforts.
 
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Supercheyenne
Really? What sanction?
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SCCA Region 1 (AL) - Solo (Autocross)

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And, to the OP, I just thought about it and remembered that FF cars WILL oversteer in GT5, and it's quite on point too. At least for some.

When doing the (I think) IA license test at Autumn Ring in the GTI, I was able to get gold on it by driving the hell out of it and using really aggressive turn ins to get it to rotate. To be honest, the curbs did help. I thought at the time tat it was really similar to autocrossing my Wife's MKV GTI in regard to the balance and oversteer it has on stock suspension. It's running on Direzza DZ101 tires ... probably similar to a Sport Hard tire in GT5.
 
There are a lot of people here pretending to be engineers who have no clue what they are babbling about. Anyone else here actually designed a racecar or even read any books about vehicle dynamics (throwing around a few terms you've heard from smart people that you don't understand doesn't count).
 
I'd love to know why the handling of cars isn't spot on by now. I think between all the games in the series, most handling characteristics have been simulated at some point, so why they can't all come together in one game is beyond me.
I know nothing of how they actually get this to work, but sometimes it almost feels like the same physics since GT1 and they just move some sliders about to make it feel different:dopey:
 
kelpat14
There are a lot of people here pretending to be engineers who have no clue what they are babbling about. Anyone else here actually designed a racecar or even read any books about vehicle dynamics (throwing around a few terms you've heard from smart people that you don't understand doesn't count).
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I'll be honest ... I'm no engineer. I'm just a guy that likes to learn about things and one of those is suspension dynamics. Yes, I have read published books on suspension and aerodynamics in regard to building/tuning racing cars. I have modified my own car which has been tested and tuned in a racing environment. That, accompanied teaching advanced driving/accident avoidance techniques to teens are my credentials. I am no expert.
 
eight6er
I'd love to know why the handling of cars isn't spot on by now. I think between all the games in the series, most handling characteristics have been simulated at some point, so why they can't all come together in one game is beyond me.
I know nothing of how they actually get this to work, but sometimes it almost feels like the same physics since GT1 and they just move some sliders about to make it feel different:dopey:
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The problem is that, even though real world physics are essentially set in stone, there has always been debate about how they should be handled in a simulation environment. Essentially, real world physics are purposely skewed in simulations to make the experience "feel" more realistic.

The real world is based in fact. Simulation is opinion. the real world can't be duplicated, so it's up for translation and everyone translates a little differently.
 
The torque steer point is a good one, but I have driven a wide assortment of FF cars in reality, and I have to say even at high speed there is very little if any oversteer on lift-off. I'm currently driving an Astra 1.9, which has a fair bit of power for an FF car, but I never get oversteer, just less understeer. This might be the tyres, (I never drive on rubbish ones) but I doubt it.
 
Main point: Lift-off oversteer as you put it comes from the car being off balance on a particular axis which is generally caused by under or over compensating your steering inputs.

Now let me hazard a guess that you play on a controller where obviously the wheel/analogue stick has no reaction to the cars' movements other than to head in the direction the wheels on the car are facing.

It is also extremely obvious that in GT5 you will never get anywhere near a true to life feel on a pad. Get a wheel and you will find what you're looking for.

EDIT: You also seem to be forgetting you are basing your experiences on one of if not the best handling FWD's in the world.
 
TouringBubble
The problem is that, even though real world physics are essentially set in stone, there has always been debate about how they should be handled in a simulation environment. Essentially, real world physics are purposely skewed in simulations to make the experience "feel" more realistic.

The real world is based in fact. Simulation is opinion. the real world can't be duplicated, so it's up for translation and everyone translates a little differently.
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Yes I see what you mean, but I think they must know these things are not right when they release the game, I mean it's one thing having slight little imperfections, but lift off oversteer is a big thing to be almost missing from the game, saying that I'd suppose we should count our selves lucky after GT4. I just wonder is it by choice they leave these things out or is it limitations.
 
Mysterious R
Main point: Lift-off oversteer as you put it comes from the car being off balance on a particular axis which is generally caused by under or over compensating your steering inputs.
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I agree with the rest, but lift-off oversteer is specifically referring to oversteer caused by un-weighting the rear tires by lifting the throttle in a corner. That's not steering related.
 
Type R's rarely if ever get this, I know, I own one. Only once did I ever actually get oversteer and it was caused by a blown inside front tyre.
 
Have you raced your Type-R? Not saying you're wrong (many FF cars are set up very soft), but outside of a racing environment cars will rarely see this. The Type-R should be set up a bit more aggressive than the standard model Integra/Civic, so it would likely be more prone to lift-off oversteer than the base car. But, I don't know the actual spring rates for comparison.
 
TouringBubble
Have you raced your Type-R? Not saying you're wrong (many FF cars are set up very soft), but outside of a racing environment cars will rarely see this. The Type-R should be set up a bit more aggressive than the standard model Integra/Civic, so it would likely be more prone to lift-off oversteer than the base car. But, I don't know the actual spring rates for comparison.
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A bit? Better read up on ITRs and CTRs then. Trust me, Type R suspension is up with EVO suspension if not better.

Also owning a Type R and not giving it a whipping is practically a sin if you ask anyone that knows about FF or has driven/owned one.
 
I'm familiar with the Type-R. I just don't know the actual rate increases used on the springs and sways so I can't say for sure if they would be more prone to oversteer. And glad to hear you treat the car as it's meant to be. I'm surprised that you've never had to deal with left off oversteer though ... just my assumption that the Type-R would be one of the better cars to experience it with.
 
I would have expected the type r civic to have more lift off oversteer too, I've driven the SiR and that will lift off oversteer and I've driven the integra type R too and that has no problem oversteering. The SiR had uprated springs and the ITR had many mods so maybe that helped, but they have a reputation around here for oversteer. I know a few guys who put them in ditches because of lift off overtseer. I always consider lift off oversteer a very desirable quality in any cars handling, especially FF, I grew up driving cars like peugeot 205 gti and they love to oversteer.
 
I plan to do some testing this evening with some of my FF cars in GT5. I'll see if, in my opinion, it's realistic. I don't have a ton of FF racing experience, but I do have some ... enough to form an opinion I'd guess. I'll report back later.
 
I know for fact that in GT5P engine braking was fully engaged ONLY WHEN USING A CLUTCH, such as with the logitech g27. With no (or little) engine breaking, you won't see much lift off oversteer.

I haven't tested this out in GT5 because I assumed it would be the same, and I do feel as though I have more breaking power when using the clutch compared to when it is not enabled.
 
Slightly unrelated, but how does one attempt lift-off oversteer in an FF car? I'm intrigued since I drive a MINI Cooper S in real life, and I'm always looking for ways to turn harder (though trust me it turns plenty hard for a stock vehicle). I think the suspension is probably too stiff to really make it oversteer in confidence, but it certainly has a lot of engine deceleration on lift, especially if I turn off TCS.
 
People going on about lift off over steer in FF cars. When using said cars in GT, you might want to do a few things
Disable all nannies
use comfort tires(since you car would actually ride on these in real life)
check that the brake balance is set a little lower(2 or 3 up front and 3 in the rear)
drive using a wheel with clutch enabled(GT never really simulated engine braking until clutch was introduced)

I play using the clutch often, trust me engine braking is horrible for racing, upsets your car big time, you must use left foot braking or heel toe magic to keep your car poised.

By design cars are always set up for understeer, it's a safety thing. Sporty FF are given a fair amount of oversteer dialed in(through suspension settings) to help with turn in, thus achieving FR car kind of behavior, but without the snap oversteer. GT5 was set to be accessible to a greater majority of players, so it's default settings will not net you realistic results. Change a few settings and wear the appropriate shoes and you will get a much closer result to what you would expect.
 
tigermilk
Um, not really. Even if you have a rigid suspension there would be no "transfer of weight". It's strictly an F=ma thing. The inertial properties aren't changing at all. What is changing is the "a" thing, and that causes changes in contact forces with the ground. But as most of the population don't understand/care about kinematic/flex body simulations, the rather misleading term "weight transfer" has unfortunately been accepted.
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A more accurate term is "load transfer", but "weight transfer" is the customary term when you're talking about cars. Nevertheless, the contact forces with the ground are what's holding up the weight of the car.
 
Blangadanger
Slightly unrelated, but how does one attempt lift-off oversteer in an FF car? I'm intrigued since I drive a MINI Cooper S in real life, and I'm always looking for ways to turn harder (though trust me it turns plenty hard for a stock vehicle). I think the suspension is probably too stiff to really make it oversteer in confidence, but it certainly has a lot of engine deceleration on lift, especially if I turn off TCS.
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Lift-off oversteer is used when you need to make just a slight adjustment to your line. This can be done during steady state cornering or when entering a kink or similar.

When in steady state cornering and encountering slight understeer, you should be able to keep your steering input stable and just lift off the accelerator. This will pitch the weight forward increasing the grip on the front tires and cause the rear to loosen, shifting from understeer to oversteer.

For entering a kink that you can almost take wide open, but encounter understeer, simply left off the throttle and turn in to the corner as the weight shifts forward. Then get back on the throttle. This gives the front tires enough grip to turn without scrubbing a ton of speed.

For this to work you have to be in a state of understeer. If not, there is still grip available and you won't notice the shift in traction.

And Minis are great for lift-off oversteer. Just practice in a safe environment and try it with different amounts of lift off and see how it reacts.

SavageEvil ... I'm not sure you are considering engine braking in the correct context. Any time you are not on the throttle and the car is moving and in gear, you are engine braking. Engine braking is very useful in slowing you for corner entry and assists the brakes. Without engine braking your braking zones would need to be longer and you would overheat and wear brakes much more quickly.

You mention heel toe techniques. Heel toe is used to downshift and use engine braking without causing it to lock the drive wheels.

Lift-off oversteer uses engine braking in a sense (if you lift a lot) to correct or modify your line in a corner. It's very useful and I use it all the time in autocross.
 
Emu76
The torque steer point is a good one, but I have driven a wide assortment of FF cars in reality, and I have to say even at high speed there is very little if any oversteer on lift-off. I'm currently driving an Astra 1.9, which has a fair bit of power for an FF car, but I never get oversteer, just less understeer. This might be the tyres, (I never drive on rubbish ones) but I doubt it.
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I drive a '66 Austin Mini, and the first time I encountered its ability to lift-off oversteer was on a twisty, wet road with a steep 15' embankment. I was lucky and saved the car, but the skid marks in my drawers would attest to FF lift-off oversteer. lol
 
Blangadanger: What tire/wheel package you have on the Cooper S? And what year model? While I've found that it's quite possible to get lift-off oversteer in a new MINI, there's a time and place for it... if you drive properly on a racetrack, on street tires, there's usually too much rear grip and too little from grip (on a standard MINI) to get it crossed up. An autocross is different, as is a rather slippery real-world road. We had Rauno Altonen come over to demo in a Mini Cooper S during the launch of the anniversary JCW, and as they gave him a 6AT... and worse... it was on 17s... he needed a lot of speed, a hearty Scandinavian flick and some handbrake to get the car to even rotate... and even then, it wasn't that much.

Always practice in a safe place. A deserted roundabout allows you to build up speed in a circle, then ease off the gas in varying degrees at varying engine speeds to see what does what. even safer if you have an empty parking lot to do this in.

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In GT5, you'll want to fix the brake balance, as mentioned (though this has nothing to do with lift-off), and find the correct tire compound to simulate real life. You're obviously not going to get massive lift-off on Sports Mediums in GT5. But if you go too low, you might exaggerate a car's tendency to understeer quicker than its tendency to oversteer.

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@Touring Bubble: Awesome stuff... but when replying to two posts via the quote function, you can use multiquote instead of double posting. ;)
 
BobElHat
A more accurate term is "load transfer", but "weight transfer" is the customary term when you're talking about cars. Nevertheless, the contact forces with the ground are what's holding up the weight of the car.
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Ah, but not so. Weight of the car implies curb weight. What you are really wanting to say is that the contact forces balance the inertial and external forces and moments.
 
niky
@Touring Bubble: Awesome stuff... but when replying to two posts via the quote function, you can use multiquote instead of double posting. ;)[/B]
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Yeah, I know. I tried honestly, but the firewall at my office blocks part of the site for some reason. None of the formatting tools work, nor does the multiquote function. Sorry about that.

And to update, I tried out 2 different cars just a bit ago ... a completely stock 207 GTI and a modified VW GTI. Both on comfort soft tires.

The Pugeot did manage to rotate off throttle, but barely enough to notice. It was very easy to reach terminal understeer on the stock suspension and tires.

The VW was on height adjustable suspension and the rotation was much easier to notice. It was more like a stock VW GTI feels in my opinion ... maybe a touch more rotation that real life, but really close.

Also, engine braking is there, but no where near as powerful as I think it should be. I think if the engine braking effect was a little stronger, the stock Pugeot would have felt a bit better off throttle and would likely be more true-to-life.
 
I have also been frustrated trying to get my 96 evo to lift off oversteer. no matter how soft the front and how stiff the rear, I cant get it to oversteer. I have even toed out the rear to help but no go.....
 
Machine, that sounds like your driving style perhaps. When do you want it to rotate? What part of the corner? What type of corner?

Also, are you running a variable center diff?
 
One question for all of you complaining about no lift off oversteer... do your tires make noise when you brake coming into a corner?

If the answer is yes then it's time to read up on GT5 and what the sounds mean. YMMV.

In my experience some FWD cars are easier to rotate than others but I really have no problem getting good rotation out of any car in gt5 (ok some of them are understeer pigs but you can't overspeed into every corner and expect the car to behave it'self.

Also it's a PITA to execute consistently with the DS3, I will admit that.
 

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