Maybe tuners can explain this to me...

[Zenith]

Before anyone judges me, I am not some muscle car owner trying to bash the Japo-tuner community. I am legitimately interested in this question

that said..

Why do you take a car that was simply meant to be cheap and reliable, and try to make it faster? I can fully understand people upping the power on their M3's, but why would you do that to something like a Civic or a Corolla? It won't go very fast in the end, and you could have saved your money for a quicker car in the first place.

This is more directed at the actual tuners, not the ricers.

 

[Azuremen]

Hmm... Debating if this is a troll post.

But I'll have faith in you.

The Civic for example has a full wishbone suspension, which actually makes the chassis fairly capable of handling well if you put in a few braces. Even the cheapest D series motors can handle around 10 psi of boost, making junkyard turbo setups rather effective, getting around 200 hp for very little investment.

Same deal with some of the older Corollas, those with 4A-GE's, and the C52 transmission could handle an okay amount of power.

Further, the case is often someone will buy a car, and then want more to that car... so they add on to it rather than trying to finance a new car or sell their own and purchase more performance focused car.

My Integra that I've been driving as a beater is a pretty solid example of how you can take an econo box with a solid platform and make it a rather good track car. Few grand would get me a B18C, some bolt ons to bring it over 200HP, LSD in the transmission, some springs and shocks, new rear sway, and fitting brakes from a Type R or such. Combine with some 15 inch wheels running 205/50 series tires and I could very easily take WRXs at track days, for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Punknoodle]

Personal taste and preference, that's the long and short of it.

 

[Northstar]

Same reason people like muscle cars, it's a blank canvas you can turn into your vision for a relatively little amount.

 

[mafia_boy]

I'll bite.

The reason that small car owners (not just imports) work their cars is simple but it takes a few steps to explain it.

1. Looks. We love our small cars, we don't have to drive around with this big lump of metal. Plus we can fit into spaces where your big lump can only dream of getting into.

2. Handling. Your big muscle car is very cumbersome due to it's heavy weight, making it very difficult to take corners with great speed. With light weight cars, we can go around corners faster and brake later making the driving experience more fulfilling.

3. Power to weight ratios: Take your muscle car with 500-600hp. The problem with it is that it weighs well over 1600kg from it's big block, big body, and heavy cast iron parts. Take 1/2 of that weight but put around the same power into a Ford Escort or Isuzu/Holden Gemini from a turbocharged 2.0L motor, your 600hp V8 muscle car gets left in the dust! Or get an S13 Silvia, with the SR20 capable of more than that.

4. Price per hp: It costs BIG amounts of money to get a muscle car to go fast compared to a smaller motor and even BIGGER amounts to rebuild that motor if you blow it up. Sure, it's got a big motor, but the hp/capacity ratio is inferior to the smaller motors. You don't see 100hp/litre motors in the 6.0L and up category, usually the muscle car guys are stuck with crate motors that struggle to get 1hp/cubic inch. Compare that to B18C Honda motors that are 1.8L but produce 200hp with room for improvement to 300hp naturally aspirated, and then turbocharged to produce bigger numbers.

5. Engine Swaps: People who own small cars KNOW that the normal stock motors are usually crap, for example the Datsun 1600 (510) with it's asthmatic L16 motor. But it's cheap to get an engine like an SR20DET which bolts in without too many troubles, and give that car a 300% power boost!! Compare that to rebuilding the L16 which would cost twice as much but produce 1/3 the amount of power that the engine swap would produce....that's another reason.

6. Rotaries: Compare your 7.5L V8 motor against 1.3L of 13B motor or 2.0L of 20B triple rotor. These rotors are producing inexcess of 800hp in 13B form and well over 1000hp in 20B form. Then match that to a kerb weight of around 900-1000kg. That amount of power and weight is better than a Hayabusa and there are plenty of street driven rotors that are performing 8's on the 1/4 mile.

7. Availability: In countries like Australia, we don't get many classic American muscle cars, but we have our own muscle cars like the Falcon, Monaro, Kingswood and so on so we make do with them, but smaller cars are available in greater numbers to the backyard tuner and show car builder alike.

And finally, the biggest reason of them all:

Because we love them!! Slick and small is the way to haul, and more and more people are realising this.

I'll leave it at that for now, but for more proof at how good small cars can be, there's plenty of runs in this post (click here!!) which show how quick small cars can be. 👍

 

[Azuremen]

Mafia boy, your argument completely falls on its face if you look at the Corvette.

And I mean completely.

Also, at Rotaries, considering an LS1 weighs less than the twin-turbo 13B setup in the FD3S and makes more power.

Putting an SR20DET into a 510 is a bit more than some bolting in...

Most Japanese compacts from the 90's, such as the Silvia series, weigh around 1200 kg, not 800. A Corvette weighs under 1400kg.

Making over 300 HP reliably on any 2 liter turbo motor requires a fair investment.

Older compacts, such as the AE86, have solid rear axles which is exactly what makes Mustangs handle less than ideally, so yeah...

Power to displacement is one of the biggest ricer arguments ever. Making power out of a LS series engine is insanely easy, and far more reliable than making equivalent power out of just about anything from Japan aside from maybe a 2JZ and an RB series motor, and even then you have turbo lag. Producing 300HP out a B18C without a turbo requires some serious work, and they don't handle boost the best. The H22 is a much better choice and thats mostly because of its lower compression and larger displacement.

TL : DR - Drop the mis-informed arguments, please. It just makes import people look worse...

 

[Zenith]

My 1967 (yes I flipped the 69 for a different one) Mustang weighs about 1500kg with a 331 stroker producing about 440bhp (dynoed) and enough low end torque to start an earthquake

Interesting points...

I know that my car will be eaten alive by a secondhand Subaru on the track, that's fine, I didn't buy it to go fast, very few vintage car owners do. The performance argument for tuners vs. muscle cars isn't what I was asking. I'm looking for the original motivation.

The thing that I can't get over, is that my car was meant to go fast (in its day), a econobox tuner was meant to move a person from point A to point B. To take the Clarkson metaphor, tuning a econobox feels like putting a cow in a track suit. It wasn't made to go fast, so what's the point in forcing it to?

So far I'm liking the blank canvas metaphor and the cheap track day car idea, but nothing's clicked the lightbulb on yet. Maybe nothing will, maybe I'll never understand the tuner mindset... oh well.

 

[astrosdude91]

It seems you've started a bit of a flame war here Zenith. Though I have the feeling you intended that.

To me, the whole tuning/ricing community all started when the movie The Fast and the Furious came out. Since then, every High School parking lot America has been filled with high miliage Honda Civics with mis colored body kits and fart canons. Because they are cheaper than a muscle car, and it makes them feel like Brian O'connor. Though I will admit, I have seen a large number of SVT Mustangs and late '90's Z28's popping up among those ricers.

 

[Northstar]

Though I will admit, I have seen a large number of SVT Mustangs and late '90's Z28's popping up among those ricers.

Which isn't exactly a good thing either as you know they get the crap beat out of them on a regular basis.

 

[addictions]

Not much variety of muscle cars here in the uk but England is really a big car modification land.
Individualality is the main reason I believe.
And to own, run and insure a big V8 would cost the earth.
In the uk the average hot hatch is around the 2litre mark whether It's NA,turbo'd or whatever and there so easily tunable. So many different companys do Heads, throttle bodies,turbos,superchargers and much much more It's hard not to keep It stock.

And this started a long long time ago I'm 34 and at 17 my 2litre pinto powered mk2 escort had big valve head cam urated rods forged pistons twin 40's 4 branch manifold and system ect ect.

Road tax is an issue to my focus st170 is £215 a year.
I looked at buying a new focus RS a few months ago this would be £500 a year.
Road tax price in England is bassed on emissions.

 

[Azuremen]

The thing that I can't get over, is that my car was meant to go fast (in its day), a econobox tuner was meant to move a person from point A to point B. To take the Clarkson metaphor, tuning a econobox feels like putting a cow in a track suit. It wasn't made to go fast, so what's the point in forcing it to?

So far I'm liking the blank canvas metaphor and the cheap track day car idea, but nothing's clicked the lightbulb on yet. Maybe nothing will, maybe I'll never understand the tuner mindset... oh well.

Classic muscle cars were never really meant to handle, which was the result of the open highway system that developed in the US versus the UK and Europe. Similar reasons why we ended up with highway warrior motorcycles like the Harley while more nimble, smaller bikes developed in England.

Like I mentioned before, if the hands of a reasonably knowledgeable person, a cheap Integra or Civic can be made into a cost effective track car without too much fuss. Smaller wheels and brakes also mean cheaper parts that must be replaced regularly, which is part of why I love the 205/50/15 tire size compared to getting 235/45/17s for my M3.

It seems you've started a bit of a flame war here Zeneth. Though I have the feeling you intended that.

To me, the whole tuning/ricing community all started when the movie The Fast and the Furious came out. Since then, every High School parking lot America has been filled with high miliage Honda Civics with mis colored body kits and fart canons. Because they are cheaper than a muscle car, and it makes them feel like Brian O'connor. Though I will admit, I have seen a large number of SVT Mustangs and late '90's Z28's popping up among those ricers.

If you had read his originally post more carefully, you would have noticed he was talking to actual import tuners, not FnF poseurs with some primer body kit and 11ty k HIDs.

Expanding on the topic a bit more, countries other than the US tend to have displacement taxes, along with various other regulations that make large displacement, larger vehicles less appealing to own. Or a general lack of them period due to import taxes and so on. Australia is really the only other nation I can think of with a strong V8 car culture, and that can be attributed to Ford and GM.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I rode passenger in an late model Civic Type R, not the most recent shape but the one before. I think that model had around 200bhp and was stock. I love cars but am a biker at heart. The owner took me for a blast through some country roads, and I was very surprised how serious the car felt, taut, responsive and relatively fast if the motor was taken to 8000rpm. Kinda felt how I imagine a BTTC car would feel.

I kind of had a new respect for those kind of cars after, and could certainly see what the attraction was. I am sure with a bit of work, exhaust chip and other bits and bobs done that car could be very serious still with less than 300bhp.

I can't compare to a big American car, but at least vs. some of the older American muscles cars, I can't imagine the muscle cars having anything on that Civic at least in terms of driveability or tech sophistication. Certainly having a big V8 leaves plenty of room for big power but to get the chassis in line properly, is a harder and more exspensive job.

Like others have mentioned, your choice of car depends on many things, cost, style sound and driverbility/tunebility and what you get right out of the bag.

For me, if I was in the market for a car right now, with the money I don't have, I guess I would be looking at a light weight Japanese car that hgas a buzzy motor and a chassis that likes attacking corners.

 

[Time_Attack]

Because I wouldn't be caught dead in an M3. Thats why.

 

[Azuremen]

Because I wouldn't be caught dead in an M3. Thats why.

And why is that?

 

[mazdaman]

Because the amount of money to replace part's for a M3
is insane.For imports there are lot's of companys that have
kits for what your looking for and what fun is it buying a fast
car than getting a weak one and getting your hands dirty?
Also many maintenance for a expensive car is lot's of money.
But if your not building your import and taking it to a mechanic
then your in the same boat as someone who was to take a M3
to get checked out.

 

[Azuremen]

Ignorance

Fun Fact, I can get parts cheaper for my M3 than I could for my Civic.

And its easier to work on.

Crazy, right?

Also, learn to use periods and the correct spellings of words.

 

[mazdaman]

Fun Fact, I can get parts cheaper for my M3 than I could for my Civic.

And its easier to work on.

Crazy, right?

Also, learn to use periods and the correct spellings of words.

Well I'm a die hard import lover also I would'nt know about a civic
because everyone know's I hate them. Also I love M3's but it's more fun
being able to beat a expensive car with a cheap modified one.

 

[Azuremen]

Well I'm a die hard import lover also I would'nt know about a civic
because everyone know's I hate them. Also I love M3's but it's more fun
being able to beat a expensive car with a cheap modified one.

Considering you can get an E36 M3 for 6 grand that is in okay shape, and then put 3 more into it and have 300 whp. Which would end just about any Civic that could be had for the same price short of a completely beat EG-6 shell with a turbo setup...

Also, just an FYI, the M3 is an import.

 

[mazdaman]

Considering you can get an E36 M3 for 6 grand that is in okay shape, and then put 3 more into it and have 300 whp. Which would end just about any Civic that could be had for the same price short of a completely beat EG-6 shell with a turbo setup...

Also, just an FYI, the M3 is an import.

Meant to say japanese import,also Once again I would'nt know about a Civic because I
Hate them.

 

[Azuremen]

Meant to say japanese import,also Once again I would'nt know about a Civic because I
Hate them.

Well, would also trash on an FC and an FD. And I know parts are cheaper for the E36 M3 than the FC RX-7s.

Also, it generally is poor form to try to argue a point using something you know nothing about and hate is the key part of it. So you may want to put more thought into your posts in the future.

Also, disable the formatting on whatever you are posting from, the random capitals and line breaks are obnoxious.

 

[mazdaman]

Well, would also trash on an FC and an FD. And I know parts are cheaper for the E36 M3 than the FC RX-7s.

Also, it generally is poor form to try to argue a point using something you know nothing about and hate is the key part of it. So you may want to put more thought into your posts in the future.

Also, disable the formatting on whatever you are posting from, the random capitals and line breaks are obnoxious.

No it would'nt trash a FC nor
an FD and you send me some prices for your M3 and we'll compare them.

 

[Time_Attack]

And why is that?

3 series in general is played out. I'd consider an E30 but thats it. After that I'm not a fan.

 

[Azuremen]

No it would'nt trash a FC nor
an FD and you send me some prices for your M3 and we'll compare them.

My M3 cost me $6500 dollars. Runs a 14 second 1/4 mile. You can find an E36 M3 for anywhere from $5000 to $15000, depending on year and mileage.

An FD3S runs a 14.0, maybe just under, but good luck finding one for under 10 grand that runs decently. And the motor has a life span of around 50k miles if treated kindly.

The fastest FC's barely broke into the high 14's on the 1/4 mile, and cost a few thousand dollars.

As for parts, the fact that M3 uses the E36 chassis and a piston engine greatly simplifies finding parts for them, as there are far more E36's on the road than any RX-7 ever produced, in any trim. More E36 M3's than FCs on the road as well.

And before you attempt to make the argument that the RX-7 is lighter, the FC sits at 2700 to 3000 pounds, which is just a bit less or the same as earlier model E36 M3s, and while the FD does sit at 2800 pounds, it is relatively minor difference of weight. More so when a truly light car is under 2500 pounds, or in the case of the MR-S, sub 2200.

3 series in general is played out. I'd consider an E30 but thats it. After that I'm not a fan.

Still better than just about anything Toyota has made. Ever. Short of the MkIV Supra for performance.

 

[Zenith]

Man, I really did start a flamewar...

A brief reminder: This is not a thread about 3 series BMW's vs. Japan. This is not a muscle car vs. tuner thread. I'm asking for the original motivation when you go out to your $5,000 Civic and think "I'm gunna make this thing go fast"

From what I'm getting it's for thrills without breaking the bank, and for a bit of style.

 

[Time_Attack]

And the E36 is the most generic m3 BMW has ever made. I'm not a fan of the MK4 supra either.

 

[mazdaman]

My M3 cost me $6500 dollars. Runs a 14 second 1/4 mile. You can find an E36 M3 for anywhere from $5000 to $15000, depending on year and mileage.

An FD3S runs a 14.0, maybe just under, but good luck finding one for under 10 grand that runs decently. And the motor has a life span of around 50k miles if treated kindly.

The fastest FC's barely broke into the high 14's on the 1/4 mile, and cost a few thousand dollars.

As for parts, the fact that M3 uses the E36 chassis and a piston engine greatly simplifies finding parts for them, as there are far more E36's on the road than any RX-7 ever produced, in any trim. More E36 M3's than FCs on the road as well.

And before you attempt to make the argument that the RX-7 is lighter, the FC sits at 2700 to 3000 pounds, which is just a bit less or the same as earlier model E36 M3s, and while the FD does sit at 2800 pounds, it is relatively minor difference of weight. More so when a truly light car is under 2500 pounds, or in the case of the MR-S, sub 2200.



Still better than just about anything Toyota has made. Ever. Short of the MkIV Supra for performance.

Ok I don't know where your from but they're are more Rx-7's seen where I'm
from.Also 50k hahaha don't make me throw up I've seen plenty of rx-7 running
with over 60kmiles and still give competition. Also the fastest import with oem tranny and rear end and etc etc but the motor is an FC. Wich ran a 9.64
about a week ago. Also the FD had best handling around it's time and you can pick up a FC for less than $6500 with a turbo. There is lot's of proof for everything I just said at Rx7club.com.

 

[Azuremen]

Ok I don't know where your from but they're are more Rx-7's seen where I'm
from.Also 50k hahaha don't make me throw up I've seen plenty of rx-7 running
with over 60kmiles and still give competition. Also the fastest import with oem tranny and rear end and etc etc but the motor is an FC. Wich ran a 9.64
about a week ago. Also the FD had best handling around it's time and you can pick up a FC for less than $6500 with a turbo. There is lot's of proof for everything I just said at Rx7club.com.

So, 10k more miles is a huge difference? The FD is a time bomb and anyone who has actually owned one will attest to that. It also demands a large premium despite being aged.

So you get a turbo FC for 5 grand. Its still a full second slower in a drag race and it handles worse. With a less reliable motor. And the one that ran a 9.64 has how many dollars of work into it?

And using a fan forum for the RX-7 to provide "proof" is on par with using FOX NEWS to provide proof that Obama is a Communist.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Links, Mazdaman.. They help your credibility a great deal.

Anyway, about the OP's question.. To me, a spark to modifying an usual econobox usually ignites from the fact that I'm used to the car, know where it's limits are, where to shift with which gear, at which speed it starts to understeer etc etc. In other words, you run into the limits of the car when trying to get more out of it. So, ECU reflash, fresh suspension bits, better tyres and suddenly, the limits are further and I could start exploring them again.

 

[benzoboy]

Because cars like the Corolla and Civic are designed and engineered to appeal to mass market, including people aged 17 and 70, and everything in between. A typical 17 year old really doesn't want to be driving around in something his nan would be driving. Wanting to be individual, mainly. Also, a lot of people can't afford to buy or insure a fast car straight away, and they choose to make their "econobox" faster by their own means.

Also can you lot just take your bickering to PMs please?

 

[jet1991]

Most kids my age around here (18 - 20) wants a high-performance car but can`t afford anything better than old opels, old volvos and old japanese cars (old = 10-15 years). Cars here in Norway usually are the cheapest versions and not gti\sti\amg\opc\m\anything sporty. the reason to this is because even a cheap "normal" car often costs 50000$+ and cheap sporty cars like a golf gti costs 75000$, new of course. When those guys can`t afford a sporty car they compensate. 200000+ km 316\318\320 e36 beemers around here are cars most kids my age envy. Some of them can afford these cars, and those who do realise the car of their dreams actually isn`t a real sports car. That`s why everyone(in Norway at least) modify their cars, usually ruining their handling by chopping springs. And they pay workshops a lot of $ to install turbos.

doesn`t matter which car and what engine, they do it mostly for the "street cred" a blow off valve gives them Because everything needs one of those turbo thingies, right.

And then there`s me who bought a 100% stock car and got disappointed when it turned out it was heavily modified by the last owner(+ a hundred hp?).