Mazda sticks with rotary power

[CodeRedR51]

It is a novelty, leave it for prototypes and not road cars Mazda. 👍

Boooo!

But isn't the rotary engine very light?

So they can make a high performance car like a GT-R but something along the lines of the RX-7 look with good power.

New RX-7 would be nice. So would a Rotary option for the Miata. 👍

 

[Keef]

Aww, that's too bad.

Maybe he should retire so the Rotary can retire as well. There are too many high powered forced induction'd I4's and naturally aspirated V6's that are better than what ever Rotary Mazda can pull out of their bums.

It is a novelty, leave it for prototypes and not road cars Mazda. 👍

Are you insane?

Mazda is the only company on the planet that is clever enough, innovative enough, and brave enough to work on such a niche technology. It is a very cool technology, and very appealing. It has its benefits and its detriments, just like any technology has. But when so many other, larger, seemingly more advanced manufacturers, GM and Mercedes-Benz in particular, have tried and failed to make the engine work anywhere but on the race track, Mazda is the only company with the balls to put it on the street and do quite well with it. It's one of the things that defines Mazda as a company. It's part of what makes Mazda the most Japanese of all the Japanese companies. Mazda's rotary is Ferrari's V12, or BMW's inline 6, or GM's V8.

 

[Dennisch]

Mazda's rotary is Ferrari's V12, or BMW's inline 6, or GM's V8.

Quoted.

FTW.

 

[JCE]

Are you insane?

Mazda is the only company on the planet that is clever enough, innovative enough, and brave enough to work on such a niche technology. It is a very cool technology, and very appealing. It has its benefits and its detriments, just like any technology has. But when so many other, larger, seemingly more advanced manufacturers, GM and Mercedes-Benz in particular, have tried and failed to make the engine work anywhere but on the race track, Mazda is the only company with the balls to put it on the street and do quite well with it. It's one of the things that defines Mazda as a company. It's part of what makes Mazda the most Japanese of all the Japanese companies. Mazda's rotary is Ferrari's V12, or BMW's inline 6, or GM's V8.

Are you insane?

There is nothing good about the rotary in the real world. Let me be clear, as something different they are cool yes. As something in the practical real world they are bunk. Terrible fuel consumption, terrible power output, reliability not the greatest and for most (subjectively) the noise they make is less than music to the ears. Just putting the regular 3.0L V6 from the previous generation Mazda6 in the RX-8 would significantly improve the entire driving experience while only marginally affect the handling due to the increased engine weight. 👍

And, having something that's niche does not mean it is even worth a bag of sand either. And I'm not even just talking about the automatic RX-8 like the one my wife has. I raced one of my neighbors on a closed private road on Monday in his blue RX-8 with a 6spd manual and I won, both times by a car length each. The first time to ~70mph and the 2nd time to ~90mph. My SVT Focus is not fast by most people's standards but it made that RX-8 look silly--and downright embarrasses my wife's automatic 8. Next time I will see if he wants to switch cars and I'll drive his RX-8 6spd and he can drive my SVT and lets see if he can beat his own car.

Besides, Mazda's identity is not about one rotary engine in its line up. It is about each of their cars driving dynamics, you know "zoom zoom". Most of their cars for sale are quite fun to drive even in base trim, that is what Mazda has been known for at least the past 10-15 years.

 

[Korza]

Are you insane?

There is nothing good about the rotary in the real world. Let me be clear, as something different they are cool yes. As something in the practical real world they are bunk. Terrible fuel consumption, terrible power output, reliability not the greatest and for most (subjectively) the noise they make is less than music to the ears. Just putting the regular 3.0L V6 from the previous generation Mazda6 in the RX-8 would significantly improve the entire driving experience while only marginally affect the handling due to the increased engine weight. 👍

And, having something that's niche does not mean it is even worth a bag of sand either. And I'm not even just talking about the automatic RX-8 like the one my wife has. I raced one of my neighbors on Monday in his blue RX-8 with a 6spd manual and I won, both times by a car length each. The first time to ~70mph and the 2nd time to ~90mph. My SVT Focus is not fast by most people's standards but it made that RX-8 look silly--and downright embarrasses my wife's automatic 8. Next time I will see if he wants to switch cars and I'll drive his RX-8 6spd and he can drive my SVT and lets see if he can beat his own car.

Besides, Mazda's identity is not about one rotary engine in its line up. It is about each of their cars driving dynamics, you know "zoom zoom". Most of their cars for sale are quite fun to drive even in base trim, that is what Mazda has been known for at least the past 10-15 years.

Part of the RX-8's driving experience was the fantastic rotary engine.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I want to get one soon because they can be had for cheap, but that rotary scares me. It sounds unreliable and because its so unique, I'm not sure if maintenance, parts and service would be affordable.

 

[Korza]

The rotary is one of the most reliable engines when treated properly. And they sound fantastic!

 

[JCE]

Part of the RX-8's driving experience was the fantastic rotary engine.

Um, you didn't really explain why you have that opinion. The driving experience for the RX-8 is very good handling sorted by a great chassis but with an engine that lets it down. I never even talked about how the interior is horrendously uncomfortable and feels like a wheelie bin on some of the plastics.

I want to get one soon because they can be had for cheap, but that rotary scares me. It sounds unreliable and because its so unique, I'm not sure if maintenance, parts and service would be affordable.

Just do yourself a favor if you get one and get a 2007+ model, with a 6spd manual, full service records and plans to engine swap. If we keep ours we're going do an engine swap at some point. Don't let the reliability and engine bring you down. The handling and exterior design almost makes up for it, you will turn heads driving it. Almost every day my wife gets compliments either at the gas pump or at work or just when running errands. Just make sure you get it fully serviced at a reputable Mazda dealer shortly after you purchase it. Spend the extra $$ and have them go through their 120 or 160 point inspection (whatever the dealer has for used cars) to make sure everything is tip top.

The rotary is one of the most reliable engines when treated properly. And they sound fantastic!

Even when "treated properly" the rotary still has issues. They are well documented. I do politely disagree with the noise, but that's an opinion.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Terrible fuel consumption, terrible power output, reliability not the greatest and for most (subjectively) the noise they make is less than music to the ears.

Terrible power output? For 1.3 liters of fury, 230hp is damn good. Want more? Stack another rotor on there and make 300+.

Rotary's surely are music to my ears. Bridge porting FTW.

Just putting the regular 3.0L V6 from the previous generation Mazda6 in the RX-8 would significantly improve the entire driving experience while only marginally affect the handling due to the increased engine weight. 👍

But then it wouldn't be an "R"X-8. It would be an...."M"X-8....or something...

I raced one of my neighbors on Monday in his blue RX-8 with a 6spd manual and I won, both times by a car length each. The first time to ~70mph and the 2nd time to ~90mph. My SVT Focus is not fast by most people's standards but it made that RX-8 look silly--and downright embarrasses my wife's automatic 8. Next time I will see if he wants to switch cars and I'll drive his RX-8 6spd and he can drive my SVT and lets see if he can beat his own car.

Sounds like your neighbor is a 🤬 driver.

Besides, Mazda's identity is not about one rotary engine in its line up. It is about each of their cars driving dynamics, you know "zoom zoom". Most of their cars for sale are quite fun to drive even in base trim, that is what Mazda has been known for at least the past 10-15 years.

I beg to differ slightly. Yes, they are known for great handling cars, but the Rotary engine IS Mazda. That company would not be where they are today without the RX-7 and the engine placed under it's hood. Plain and simple.

 

[Keef]

terrible power output

1.3 liters, 240 horsepower. That's still the highest specific power output of any regular production street-legal engine. The next rotary is planned to be a 1.6 liter.

So we take 240 / 1.3 = 184.6 hp/L * 1.6 = 295 horspower. Given all the same efficiency and design parameters of the Renesis (which won't be the case since the new one is a completely new design), the new 1.6 should make at least 295 horsepower, naturally aspirated.

reliability not the greatest

The entire automotive world has been developing piston engines for over 100 years. One company, Mazda, has been developing rotaries for less than half that time, and then for only a few cars they've ever made. It might as well be hydrogen, and by that I mean they've barely scratched the surface.

Just putting the regular 3.0L V6 from the previous generation Mazda6 in the RX-8 would significantly improve the entire driving experience while only marginally affect the handling due to the increased engine weight.

The total weight would be slightly greater, the front weight bias would increase, and the center of gravity would move up considerably. The piston engine, DOHC, would be a tight fit under the RX8's hood if it fit at all. As you can see, an LSx which is OHV and about 4 inches lower than similar 90-degree DOHC V-engines, barely clears the hood and doesn't allow room for a standard strut tower brace.

*it's slow*

You should know by now that driving enjoyment is about much more than simply going fast. Another thing an RX8 doesn't do well is exhibit bad FWD handling habits.

Besides, Mazda's identity is not about one rotary engine in its line up. It is about each of their cars driving dynamics, you know "zoom zoom". Most of their cars for sale are quite fun to drive even in base trim, that is what Mazda has been known for at least the past 10-15 years.

The rotary has been part of Mazdas research portfolio since 1961, and has been in production since 1967.

 

[Korza]

Don't Mazda own the rights to the Rotary engine?

 

[JJ72]

Of course Mazda wouldn't give up their biggest brand differentiating factor and their company DNA, anyone who suggest so just.......don't like Mazdas? and obviously don't like varieties in cars.

 

[niky]

Don't Mazda own the rights to the Rotary engine?

Mazda holds patents for their rotary, but they don't own the rights to the rotary engine per se... since they weren't the ones who invented it nor were they the first to produce a rotary powered car. That honor belongs to NSU, which is now one of the four rings in Audi.

 

[zedextreme8177]

That car alone brought me to love rotary engines, now imagine a 4-rotor Mazda supercar

 

[Jay]

When I was a little kid my grandfather owned a Mazda RX-4 coupe which he bought new, the same time my father owned a Pontiac GTO 455HO....bit different but both awesome. I wish they both kept the cars, oh well.

I can't wait to see a new rotary, I hope for a new turbocharged model in the lineup. Rotary engines still live large in Australia.

 

[Zenith]

Tradition: Just because you've done it this way for decades doesn't mean that it isn't incredibly stupid.

That said, I'm still yet to take a side in the rotary debate. JCE brings up some good points and rotaries aren't very good for a daily driver, which is an important quality to have if Mazda plans to sell rotary driven cars. I've heard stories from previous owners who hated the experience as often as I've found people who are in love with it.

 

[JCE]

I'll post one last time and maybe I will never step foot in a rotary topic again since it ends up being a borderline flame war due to how much I hate this damned engine and how everyone is just blindly in love with it for some retarded reason.

Terrible power output? For 1.3 liters of fury, 230hp is damn good. Want more? Stack another rotor on there and make 300+.

What do a 1.3L 232bhp, a 2.0L 232bhp and a 3.0L 232bhp engine have in common? They all are 230bhp. Engine size doesn't matter, actual power output per pound (kilogram) does. They got 232bhp from a Wankel engine, hey great! That would of been a great number for a naturally aspirated sports coupe, in the 90's. The RX-8 is 3,050lbs at its lightest weight, that is in between semi-light and moderately weighted. 232bhp for the manual equipped RX-8 is not very powerful and only has a slight advantage in the power-to-weight versus my SVT Focus. 0-60 times are around 7.0s dead for the manual RX-8 which is almost exactly what my SVT is without traction control when launched properly. Same with a Honda Civic Si and an RSX Type-S as well since they are in this power range too. Which really is nothing in the world of regular family saloons hitting mid-6's and less to 60mph.

Sounds like your neighbor is a 🤬 driver.

Oh, because I won right? No way I could win because my car is faster in a real world drag race. Whatever. 👎

I beg to differ slightly. Yes, they are known for great handling cars, but the Rotary engine IS Mazda.

But it isn't. Every commercial and advert I can remember seeing always talks about some random Mazda vehicle being fun to drive. I've literally never seen an RX-8 TV commercial that talks about the car specifically at all. Just a flash of a rotor and a short clip of it driving. What IS Mazda is "zoom zoom" across its line up according to their own adverts. Just take a look at every past Mazda brochure from the last 7-8 years and the rotary makes a very minor and insignificant mention and only because it is on one of their vehicles.

1.3 liters, 240 horsepower. That's still the highest specific power output of any regular production street-legal engine. The next rotary is planned to be a 1.6 liter.

So we take 240 / 1.3 = 184.6 hp/L * 1.6 = 295 horspower. Given all the same efficiency and design parameters of the Renesis (which won't be the case since the new one is a completely new design), the new 1.6 should make at least 295 horsepower, naturally aspirated.

Again, engine size doesn't matter. Actual on pavement performance does. 232bhp is still 232bhp no matter if you get it from a 1985 Chevy 350 TPI V8 or a 2010 Mazda Rotary engine. And even if the new rotary has 295bhp it still isn't enough when you consider now even the base model V6 coupes are putting out over 300bhp for thousands of dollars less. The Camaro and Mustang base V6 cars put out a good deal of power for your dollar, and in the Mustang's favor between those two the handling is top notch. This is even before we start talking about the 370Z and Genesis Coupe 3.8 which is similarly priced as the RX-8 and will rival or beat it around a track and easy take it (RX-8) in a straight line.

The entire automotive world has been developing piston engines for over 100 years. One company, Mazda, has been developing rotaries for less than half that time, and then for only a few cars they've ever made. It might as well be hydrogen, and by that I mean they've barely scratched the surface.

So why isn't Mazda actually evolving the technology to actually compete against its rivals? Every single sports coupe in the same price range has much superior overall performance for the same or less money. And there should be one or two with similar or better handling for the same money as I've mentioned above.

The total weight would be slightly greater, the front weight bias would increase, and the center of gravity would move up considerably. The piston engine, DOHC, would be a tight fit under the RX8's hood if it fit at all. As you can see, an LSx which is OHV and about 4 inches lower than similar 90-degree DOHC V-engines, barely clears the hood and doesn't allow room for a standard strut tower brace.

If Mazda is so good with R&D technology developing this marvel rotary I think they could easily engineer the V6 under the bonnet. 👍 Just saying.

You should know by now that driving enjoyment is about much more than simply going fast. Another thing an RX8 doesn't do well is exhibit bad FWD handling habits.

Oh I know this (driving enjoyment at any speed) quite well in my hot hatch and old smog-choked V8 Camaro. And as I recall the SVT / ST170 Focus has one if not the best FWD chassis and handling in the history of hot hatches. That brings me to this point. Development and design can overcome/resist certain inherent traits like FWD's uncanny ability to understeer and RWD's ability to oversteer. Just like the RX-8 has been tuned to resist oversteer with its suspension and chassis design. That could mean they could just as easily engineered a normal vee engine under the bonnet and still have the center of gravity as you mentioned where they want it for the good handling.

You see what this argument turns into is a modified version of the MX-5 beef I have. Everyone's all blowing the world up every time it gets mentioned that the MX-5 is slow (which it is), they turn around and say "but but handles brilliantly!". So what, more power is better in the real world of on ramp accelerations, b-road blasts and red light rampages. As with the RX-8, it is slow and underpowered. "But it handles brilliantly and that is all that matters!" Sure, ok.

The rotary has been part of Mazdas research portfolio since 1961, and has been in production since 1967.

Then why can't they get more power out of it? They've been at it for 50 years right?

Tradition: Just because you've done it this way for decades doesn't mean that it isn't incredibly stupid.

Agreed.

That said, I'm still yet to take a side in the rotary debate. JCE brings up some good points and rotaries aren't very good for a daily driver, which is an important quality to have if Mazda plans to sell rotary driven cars. I've heard stories from previous owners who hated the experience as often as I've found people who are in love with it.

I've heard this too, it is a very love/hate kind of car isn't it? My wife loved it when she saw and bought it now she hates it because of the unreliability and lack of torque. Plus, the boot is incredibly small so we have to grocery shop in the SVT. That serves me better because my car is more comfy.

 

[Keef]

So why isn't Mazda actually evolving the technology to actually compete against its rivals?

What the hell do you think they're doing? The engine has been improved drastically in every way with each iteration. The RX8 is currently out of production and there is no rotary-powered car in the lineup because they're currently developing the new engine to comply with future emissions standards. A diesel version is also being developed. Research and development takes time and money.

If Mazda is so good with R&D technology developing this marvel rotary I think they could easily engineer the V6 under the bonnet.

They surely could, but why would they? That's the same thing everybody else is doing. That's boring.

Development and design can overcome/resist certain inherent traits like FWD's uncanny ability to understeer and RWD's ability to oversteer. Just like the RX-8 has been tuned to resist oversteer with its suspension and chassis design.

Thank you for proving my point. A front-drive platform is physically incapable of matching the driving dynamics and performance potential of a more balanced platform.

You see what this argument turns into is a modified version of the MX-5 beef I have. Everyone's all blowing the world up every time it gets mentioned that the MX-5 is slow (which it is), they turn around and say "but but handles brilliantly!". So what, more power is better in the real world of on ramp accelerations, b-road blasts and red light rampages. As with the RX-8, it is slow and underpowered. "But it handles brilliantly and that is all that matters!" Sure, ok.

I can't take a driving enthusiast seriously with this attitude about driving. I imagine you judge photography on the photographers editing ability also.

Then why can't they get more power out of it?

Apparently you missed the part about it having the highest specific output of any production engine in the world.

I feel bad that you're not interested in quirky engineering, odd designs, trying new things, being different, and driving for the sake of driving, but if that's how you want it then that's your decision.

 

[Dennisch]

A diesel version is also being developed.

Azuremen, are you listening?

 

[Omnis]

Diesel rotary? Who needs apex seals when you have soot? I would buy one.

 

[Dennisch]

I said it before. Back in the 50's Rolls Royce already build a rotary diesel. All you need is R&D and money, money, money.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I'll post one last time and maybe I will never step foot in a rotary topic again since it ends up being a borderline flame war due to how much I hate this damned engine and how everyone is just blindly in love with it for some retarded reason.

Sounds like you blindly hate it for some retarded reason.

I'm going to let Keef school you on this one since he knows more than me on the subject.

I will say that you should probably sell all of your cars and buy a Camry or Prius or something. Would suit you well.

 

[Dennisch]

Sounds like you blindly hate it for some retarded reason.

I'm going to let Keef school you on this one since he knows more than me on the subject.

I will say that you should probably sell all of your cars and buy a Camry or Prius or something. Would suit you well.

Or,

You just ignore him.

 

[daan]

I raced one of my neighbors on Monday in his blue RX-8 with a 6spd manual and I won, both times by a car length each. The first time to ~70mph and the 2nd time to ~90mph. My SVT Focus is not fast by most people's standards but it made that RX-8 look silly--and downright embarrasses my wife's automatic 8. Next time I will see if he wants to switch cars and I'll drive his RX-8 6spd and he can drive my SVT and lets see if he can beat his own car.

You sir, are a dick. Admitting to street racing on a public forum. 👎

And it's pointless discussing this with you, but here goes.

Well done for missing the point of the 8. All you seem to do is to mention how it's not quick in a straight line. We know it's not that quick in a straight line as the lack of torque and high gearing blunts it a bit, so quite a lot of mundane cars can out accelerate it. But, where's your Focus in this list? Try driving an 8 on a road with corners and it turns into an altogether different machine, and you might actually quite like it.

 

[Keef]

this list

And in subjective terms such as driving fun, the Rex was near the top of the list despite relatively underwhelming performance. It's just a damn good performance car.

 

[Omnis]

Especially after you stick a V8 in it.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Especially after you stick a V8 in it.

I swear that one day I'll stick a 13B on a viper.. Just to annoy guys who stick V8's in places where they don't belong.

 

[Zenith]

I swear that one day I'll stick a 13B on a viper.. Just to annoy guys who stick V8's in places where they don't belong.

What works works. A V8 in an RX-7 is hugely effective in increasing it's horsepower and torque. If you put a rotary in a Viper (V10, by the way), you just end up with a lot of wasted engine bay space that could've gone to the engine. That's the reason why I dislike the Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift Mustang. It's just a waste.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

The rest of the space in the Vipers engine bay would go for a "Martin Schanke's all-or-nothing" turbo. And I'm quite aware that Viper has V10, the V8 was jab at the "put LSwhatever innit mate"-crowd.. If they'd use modern DOHC V8's that don't need umpteen liters of displacement to make power and torque, I wouldn't mind.. But, enough with offtopic.

 

[JCE]

What the hell do you think they're doing? The engine has been improved drastically in every way with each iteration. The RX8 is currently out of production and there is no rotary-powered car in the lineup because they're currently developing the new engine to comply with future emissions standards. A diesel version is also being developed. Research and development takes time and money.

By the time it takes to make something that's able to compete in the marketplace with its rivals it will be too late and too much revenue will be lost. They better make the car smaller and lighter if the next rotary with a supposed 295bhp as you stated for it to compete with its rivals. 👍

Thank you for proving my point. A front-drive platform is physically incapable of matching the driving dynamics and performance potential of a more balanced platform.

No, you missed my point. Thanks anyway.

I can't take a driving enthusiast seriously with this attitude about driving. I imagine you judge photography on the photographers editing ability also.

I judge a photographer or a photograph based on the whole package, which includes post production if there is any. Oddly, my wife IS a professional photographer so I do know what all goes into that profession. Post production is just as important as the shot itself if you're planning on publishing it or even using it for promotions.

Apparently you missed the part about it having the highest specific output of any production engine in the world.

No, I just don't care. I care about actual on pavement performance regardless of the size of engine for a car of this type. 1.3L, 2.5L, 3.0L or 5.7L doesn't matter to me as much as how the engine performs in the real world for what you pay for it and what the competitors are doing. Its the physical power being put on the road surface that does matter on the road. I'd like to see well north of a naturally aspirated 320bhp for the rotary, I really would. It just isn't going to happen soon enough (or at all). I still think if they keep this engine adding forced induction makes everything good again temporarily. Putting a band aid on the knife wound it would be, but at least it could still put up a fight.

I feel bad that you're not interested in quirky engineering, odd designs, trying new things, being different, and driving for the sake of driving, but if that's how you want it then that's your decision.

I said it was cool. It just isn't practical nor efficient in today's marketplace.

Sounds like you blindly hate it for some retarded reason.

Yea, the retarded reason of it being unreliable, inefficient and under powered.

I'm going to let Keef school you on this one since he knows more than me on the subject.

I will say that you should probably sell all of your cars and buy a Camry or Prius or something. Would suit you well.

Meaningless drivel here. I enjoy driving just as much as any of you, and no one can have any fun with boring boxes with a Toyota badge. Just because I don't like slow cars that handle great but I do like quick or fast cars that handle very good doesn't mean I am devoid of driving pleasure. We just disagree on a couple of points that's all. 👍

You sir, are a dick. Admitting to street racing on a public forum. 👎

Thanks! You're a super guy too. Oh, I'll change my post to say track then if that makes it all better since it is clear that no one ever races on the street anymore.

And it's pointless discussing this with you, but here goes.

Why bother then when you know I'm going to reply with stuff you will undoubtedly disagree with?

Well done for missing the point of the 8. All you seem to do is to mention how it's not quick in a straight line.

The point of the 8 is style, a different engine, 2 useless extra doors and a brilliant handling chassis. But, don't forget I do continue to mention how it has a very good chassis and handling dynamic. Thanks.

We know it's not that quick in a straight line as the lack of torque and high gearing blunts it a bit, so quite a lot of mundane cars can out accelerate it. But, where's your Focus in this list?

I trust American car magazines as far as I can flush them. You're a Euro so you already know the 1st generation Focus does indeed have one of the best driving experiences in the handling department FWD or not.

Try driving an 8 on a road with corners and it turns into an altogether different machine, and you might actually quite like it.

Maybe with an LSx or two extra turbos stuffed under the bonnet.


--------------------

I'm done, now we're beating the dead horse. You people said your piece I said mine. Agree to disagree. Before the name calling progresses farther than daan's personal attack.

Is there a ignore thread option? I'm not coming back in here most likely so go ahead and continue to insult me while I'm gone within the letter of the rules on this forum. Try to have a great day and not let this online debate ruin it. Now I'm off to actually go have some fun and play some SNES! Cheers.