McLaren hit with record fine and lose all Constructors points

[Sureboss]

The fact that they couldn't work with each other again.

If you were Ron Dennis would you want to work with a backstabbing, arrogant driver?

 

[Blake]

I wouldn’t let that be my deciding factor on retirement.

 

[Lee]

If you were Ron Dennis would you want to work with a backstabbing, arrogant driver?

A backstabbing, arrogant driver who may just win my team another Driver's title, hmmm.. 💡

 

[Metar]

Frankly, I don't see why F1 bosses and drivers ("employees") should get along better than regular bosses and employees in regular firms. I understand that, in order to get a good spot, you need a reputation for being a fast driver who also develops well. But I see no reason they should actually get along fine.

After all, according to what I heard, Montezemolo wasn't too fond of MSC, either.

 

[<_Spike_>]

McMerc have dropped their points appeal (from the Hungary GP) in the wake of their exclusion. Ron Dennis is also worried the spy saga has taken it's toll on Lewis Hamilton, whist Mercedes motorsport boss Norbert Haug has stated his full support for the Woking based team and Dennis

 

[TheCracker]

Frankly, I don't see why F1 bosses and drivers ("employees") should get along better than regular bosses and employees in regular firms. I understand that, in order to get a good spot, you need a reputation for being a fast driver who also develops well. But I see no reason they should actually get along fine.

After all, according to what I heard, Montezemolo wasn't too fond of MSC, either.

Team principles and their drivers have a much closer working relationship than most boss / employee situations. Todt not Montezemolo was MS's boss - they had a great relationship.

 

[Metar]

Team principles and their drivers have a much closer working relationship than most boss / employee situations. Todt not Montezemolo was MS's boss - they had a great relationship.

That's true. But as long as he gets the job done (in this case, earn lots of points, and provide useful feedback), I don't see why the relationship has to be particularly good. Sure, not Alonso/Dennis levels of bad, but cold should work out, too.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Except Alonso has also spent most of the season bad mouthing his bosses, in many cases lying about specific events, blaming his problems on everyone else, accusing his bosses of favoritism, going against his bosses orders and blocking his teammate, causing himself and McLaren to be punished, nearly taking his own teammate out in more than one race, and most recently apparently even blackmailing his own boss in an attempt to force them to make him the number one driver and force Hamilton to drive only in a support role.

Now using your analogy of comparing this to regular bosses and employees in regular firms... then Alonso would not even be finishing the season. He would have been escorted out the door by security.

However, this is F1 where money, ratings, and prestige count for quite a lot, and clearly integrity, honesty, and good sportsmanship... not so much.

Granted, one could say Alonso helped insure such a high fine against McLaren as well as the constructor&#8217;s championship, but I have a feeling they were going to get busted any way and it's not like it was Alonso that was the first person at Mclaren to receive and first to share the Ferrari data.

However, unless there isn't an escape clause that McLaren can use to void their contract with Alonso and they feel the cost of buying out his contract is too great, then I seriously doubt Alonso will be driving in a McLaren car next year.

One thing Alonso has managed to do is make Michael Schumacher look like a Saint by comparison.

 

[DQuaN]

Button & Hamilton @ McLaren FTW!!!

 

[Dougboy]

Button & Hamilton @ McLaren FTW!!!

Button anywhere away from Honda FTW......even super aguri

 

[Sureboss]

A backstabbing, arrogant driver who may just win my team another Driver's title, hmmm.. 💡

Someone who threatened to 'sell out' his own team? Not to mention they haven't spoken since the Hungary race, according to Ron Dennis.

One thing Alonso has managed to do is make Michael Schumacher look like a Saint by comparison.

Yup.

 

[slackbladder]

Button anywhere away from Honda FTW......even super aguri

So true...

I don't think Alonso was ever so difficult (or had such a difficult time) at Renault. His Number 1 status was assured and there was no question over his superiority as a driver over Fischicella. But at McLaren he wasn't treated the same and well, there's been trouble ever since. Has Alonso been spoiled by his experiance at Renault? Well, he won the championship twice so yes, pretty much. But is Hamilton being spoilt by McLaren? It does seem that F1 drivers have surprisingly fragile egos sometimes. But then they're not made of steel.
If Alonso wants to stay at McLaren I'm pretty sure they'll keep him. Better to have someone as good as him on your team than another. But if he wants to go (and I think he does) then he will. Where to? Back to Renault. Fischichella may get the chop.
As for the rest of the season, cruel irony if Alonso wins the Drivers Championship. But then it's all to do with winning points not popularity. Still, even if Hamilton does'nt win (and I'm thinking it's 40/60 he does) he should still be very happy at his performance. A rookie year is always tough (and he's made mistakes on and off the track) but I'm sure he's learnt many lessons (whether or not he's taken them to heart is another matter).
The last 3 races will be corking!

 

[<_Spike_>]

I'm seriously starting to doubt Alonso will be anywhere near McLaren next season...

Fernando Alonso did not speak to McLaren boss Ron Dennis for over a month because the Spaniard does not get the preferential treatment over team-mate Lewis Hamilton he believes he deserves.

Dennis admitted at last week's World Motor Sport Council hearing that he had not talked to Alonso since a row at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

But the revelations only came out when the transcripts of the hearing were published on Wednesday.

"We are not on speaking terms, but that does not matter," said Dennis.

Dennis, referring to the conversation in Hungary in which Alonso told him he had information that could be used against McLaren in the spy controversy involving the British team and Ferrari, said: "We have not had any conversations since that point.

Treatment

"First, the relationship between Fernando and myself is extremely cold. That is an understatement.

"In Fernando's mind, there is the firm belief that our policy, whereby each driver receives equal treatment, does not properly reflect his status as world champion."

It is not known if the pair are back on speaking terms now.

Dennis added: "He bases this assertion on the fact his experience and knowledge and what came to him from his former team is such that he should receive an advantage."

The row with Alonso, which led to the Spaniard's disclosure he had knowledge of Ferrari technical information, came after Alonso lost pole position after a dispute with Hamilton.

Upset

Dennis added: "In that discussion, he was extremely upset with what had taken place the previous day, but nowhere nearly as upset as I was."

Dennis also revealed McLaren had asked Alonso to attend the Paris hearing, but the Spaniard had refused.

"Alonso is not here because he does not want to be here," he added.

"He does not speak to anyone much. He is a remarkable recluse for a driver. He is not here by choice.

"Moreover, he said he had other things to do by previous arrangement. I cannot force him to come. We asked him to come."

Skysports

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Button & Hamilton @ McLaren FTW!!!

But Button's signed on for another season at Honda hasn't he? I think they're still paying WIlliams off for buying Button out of his contract, so JB won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[<_Spike_>]

Turns out Lewis was quite lucky...

Lewis Hamilton was in grave danger of being excluded from the Formula One world championship before an impassioned plea from his counsel.

FIS president Max Mosley and his officials had made it clear that Hamilton and team-mate Fernando Alonso could well be thrown out of the drivers' world championship at last week's spy scandal hearing.

After hours of submissions, new evidence including an email conversation between Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa was thought to have spoilt the drivers' title race.

Mosley and the World Motor Sport Council heard an impassioned plea by Mark Phillips QC to allow Hamilton to remain in the title race, which spared the rookie the devastating blow of being excluded.

The conclusion was that Hamilton and Alonso were free to continue to race, while McLaren were hammered with a £50million fine and stripped of all their constructors' points.

Defence plea

In his defence submission, with a transcript of the hearing released by the FIA, Phillips remarked: "Lewis Hamilton has done nothing wrong.

"He has driven brilliantly and is leading the drivers' championship by three points (as was the case at the time).

"If McLaren were banned from competing in the remaining races, Lewis Hamilton would not be able to compete in the final four races.

"He would lose the points that he has so brilliantly won over the last few months, to the sheer delight and excitement of millions of ordinary motor-racing fans.

"The same would be true in 2008. If McLaren were excluded, Lewis Hamilton would not be able to compete in 2008, and McLaren would lose him as a driver.

"Perhaps he would drive elsewhere, assuming first that he could find a seat and assuming that that was a competitive seat.

"But I ask you to remember what he said in his statement: he has wanted to drive for McLaren for all of his racing life; he has been there since he was a young boy; he has been supported throughout his career by McLaren, and wants to continue racing for McLaren."

Disaster

Phillips argued that "it would be an absolute disaster for Formula One" if McLaren were thrown out of the championship.

In summation with regard to Hamilton, Phillips added: "...it would be a travesty to penalise him.

"We do not ask that any different treatment be given team-mate and chief competitor in this year's Formula One championship, Fernando Alonso.

"When you come to consider what is fair, proportionate and just, we invite you to have in mind that the world wants to see the world's top drivers competing on-track for the world championship.

"They do not want to see it decided by lawyers. We respectfully invite you to leave the world championship alone.

"Where Lewis Hamilton is concerned, let him get back to the track, to become the first rookie world champion in Formula One history."

With three races remaining in Japan, China and Brazil, Hamilton still has the opportunity to do just that.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I don't think Alonso was ever so difficult (or had such a difficult time) at Renault.

Actually he was quite a difficult member of Renault last year and was blaming his team on several occasions when it looked like he was not going to win the championship. The difference between then and now is he now has a teammate who is more than capable of beating him, and his response to that is to bad mouth his team and demand preferential treatment, and not simply earn the championship.

I'm seriously starting to doubt Alonso will be anywhere near McLaren next season...

*snip*

Skysports

I think McLaren will be overjoyed to see Alonso leave, and if for some reason he refuses, they will likely just buy out his contract.

Now if Alonso goes back to Renault as I suspect he will, I'm going to bust a gut if this time next year Bob Bell, the technical director for Renault's F1 team, and a British citizen, and friend of Mclaren's current technical director, Paddy Lowe, is caught with 700+ pages of McLaren technical data.

Shall we start an official Lowegate thread in preparation?

 

[Metar]

Shall we start an official Lowegate thread in preparation?

It's pretty anchient, but it's more or less the same. The Loewentor.

 

[<_Spike_>]

I think McLaren will be overjoyed to see Alonso leave, and if for some reason he refuses, they will likely just buy out his contract.

Now if Alonso goes back to Renault as I suspect he will, I'm going to bust a gut if this time next year Bob Bell, the technical director for Renault's F1 team, and a British citizen, and friend of Mclaren's current technical director, Paddy Lowe, is caught with 700+ pages of McLaren technical data.

Shall we start an official Lowegate thread in preparation?

lol, for some odd reason, that wouldn't surprise me. Next year...Lewis Hamilton & Nico Rosberg at McLaren FTW.

 

[Casio]

Alonso wants to be at a 'power team', which is pretty much only McLaren or Ferrari. I can't see him going back to join a Red Bull, Toyota or even a Renault. He complains and chucks a hissy when he's coming second, imagine what he'd be like battling for points every race.

Another thing that has to be considered is now how well known his antics are, who would want to bring a driver who want stacks of money, wants preferential treatment, and basically wants to be treated like a god, coming in and ruining a team that has good balance and is moving in the right direction.

I think he'll stay at McLaren and try to get everyone else to leave...

 

[<_Spike_>]

Ron Dennis won't stand for Alonso to be in the team with things going as they are, if the team want him out...he'll be out. If he can't find another drive, that's down to no fault but his own.

 

[MustangSVT]

I don't think McLaren can just "buy out" his contract if he chooses not to leave. His contract is for about 28 million a year if I'm not mistakes. After their huge fine, I seriously doubt McLaren wants to pay 56 million to Alonso to NOT race for them.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I don't think McLaren can just "buy out" his contract if he chooses not to leave.

Of course they can, and considering all that has happened, and as complex as these driver contracts are with all sorts of escape clauses and conditions for both the driver and the team, they may already have enough to allow McLaren to exercise a possible escape clause without having to buy his contract out.

Now worse case scenario, and McLaren can't exercise an escape clause and can't come to a financial agreement with Alonso, even $56 million to companies like Vodafone, McLaren, and Mercedes i hardly enough to keep them from getting rid of someone they really do not want on their team any longer and is only causing more problems than solutions, and who knows how bad it might get in the future.


BTW: Here's more evidence that McLaren appears to have little to no interest in having Alonso on the team next year:

Lawyers at work on Alonso's McLaren exit?
Posted on 18/09/07 16:33 by F1-LIVE

The wheels are now in motion for the early conclusion of Fernando Alonso's McLaren contract, according to reports.

On Tuesday, the German daily Bild said the team's lawyers are now working on ending the deal, after Spaniard Alonso's relationship with McLaren reached a new low following the espionage affair and claims of lying and extortion in Belgium.

"Adios, Alonso!" Bild exclaimed.

The news brings a fresh perspective to team boss Ron Dennis' admission at Spa-Francorchamps that he is seeking "closure" after one of the most difficult seasons in his 40-year career in racing.

"Part of our closure will be to take all the controversy out of the team," the Briton said, adding that any variation to any driver contract for next year would be "by mutual agreement."

"We have contracts with both drivers and those contracts are not under discussion. Our objective is to be focused on the remaining races this season.

If there is any desire for anybody to vary their contract then, there will be the appropriate time to sit and talk about it, but that desire has not been expressed," Dennis declared on Saturday.

McLaren informed F1-Live.com that there have been no developments since the above statement was made.

Fernando Alonso's contract runs until the end of 2008 and also includes an option for a third year.

Nevertheless, it is believed that Alonso will return to Renault, where under the guidance of his mentor Flavio Briatore he secured back-to-back titles in 2005 and 2006.

 

[<_Spike_>]

McLaren have decided not to appeal the World Motor Sport Council's decision to dock points and give them a fine.

McLaren will not appeal last Thursday's World Motor Sport Council verdict, according to team boss Ron Dennis.

Last week McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points for the season and handed a $100m fine by the WMSC after being found guilty of using Ferrari secrets.

McLaren had until Friday 5pm (CET) to appeal the verdict but announced at the 11th hour that they would accept the punishment, although still protested their innocence.

Best interests of the sport

"Having now had time to study the judgement of the World Motor Sport Council with its lawyers and shareholders, McLaren thinks it is in the best interests of the sport, and its goal of winning races and World Championships, not to appeal," the team said in a statement.

'It is clear from the full judgement that the World Motor Sport Council concluded that the charge that a McLaren employee had "unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information" was proven.

"Despite the existence of no evidence that the information was applied, tested or shared with the engineering team (which it was not), this possession constitutes a breach of the Code.

"To our regret and embarrassment, the content of the previously unknown emails demonstrated possession not being limited to a single person, albeit unsanctioned in any way by the team. For this breach of Article 151c, a very heavy penalty has been imposed on the team.

"The major principle of the issue for McLaren is: this information was not used to gain advantage on its cars.

"Moving forwards, and in consultation with our shareholders, we will now review and further strengthen our internal compliance structures and processes."

Distraction

Team boss Ron Dennis, who has borne the brunt of McLaren's 'Stepneygate' woes, is keen to put the matter behind him and move on as his drivers challenge for the 2007 drivers' championship title.

"We believe the time has come to put this huge distraction behind us. McLaren wants to win races and world championships," he said.

"We are fortunate to have, and continue to receive, unwavering support from our employees, sponsor partners and Formula 1 fans across the world - all of whom are equally keen that we totally focus on winning this year's Drivers' Championship and the remaining three races of the season."

 

[Greycap]

This entire thing is so ridiculous.

First, McLaren still tries to say that the information was of no use to them. I wonder if they can read, at least for me the emails and SMS's looked very much like using the information. They lie, and they know it. Hell, everyone knows it. And still they're trying to get away with it.

Second, many people think that Hamilton is the saint and Alonso is the devil. In this case, tell me why Hamilton didn't give all the information he had for the FIA. Looks like trying to look clean to me. Too bad that everyone knows that he had access to the same information.

Third. What if this had happened for Super Aguri or Spyker? The team would be banned for two years without questioning. And I see no reason why McLaren should get a different treatment just because they are successful. Why don't they get the punishment they deserve?

 

[peterjford]

This entire thing is so ridiculous.
Second, many people think that Hamilton is the saint and Alonso is the devil. In this case, tell me why Hamilton didn't give all the information he had for the FIA. Looks like trying to look clean to me. Too bad that everyone knows that he had access to the same information.

I haven't heard or read anything that said Hamilton did not give all the information he had to the FIA. If he gave no information to the FIA, it is probably because he had no relevant information.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

This entire thing is so ridiculous.

Agreed.

First, McLaren still tries to say that the information was of no use to them. I wonder if they can read, at least for me the emails and SMS's looked very much like using the information. They lie, and they know it. Hell, everyone knows it. And still they're trying to get away with it.

Agreed as well. I don't necessarily blame Ron Denis for doing his best at damage control and at least continually trying to portray himself and McLaren as innocent victims, but on the other hand it truly is absurd to even think for a moment that for as long as Coughlan and other McLaren principles had possession and knowledge of the data and were proven to even been discussing it with the test driver who then discussed it with Alonso - for Ron Denis to NOT have known what was going on is truly absurd.

Second, many people think that Hamilton is the saint and Alonso is the devil. In this case, tell me why Hamilton didn't give all the information he had for the FIA. Looks like trying to look clean to me. Too bad that everyone knows that he had access to the same information.

Unless I'm mistaken the investigation never uncovered or at least never released any evidence that Hamilton had knowledge of what was going on, but I would find that hard to believe as well.

However Alonso's "Devil" status (which I don't actually think anyone here at least has suggested that) is likely far more deserved than Hamilton's due to so many other things besides just the espionage case. It probably has something to due to his very poor prima Dona attitude, his bad mouthing of everyone including his own team, his several near race ending moves against his own teammate, his blackmailing attempt on his own team to demand preferential treatment, etc etc etc. Alonso's baggage of bad behavior is gaining in weight every week, for which many people, and now likely many teams are no longer interested in helping him carry.

Now Hamilton is also not without his "moments", but by comparison, he and every other driver currently in F1 look rather "saintly" when compared to Alonso right now.

If Alonso and his "handlers" don't get things turned around, I seriously doubt he'll ever be in contention for another F1 championship, and even if they do, I think he has already seriously tarnished his F1 career and legacy.

Third. What if this had happened for Super Aguri or Spyker? The team would be banned for two years without questioning. And I see no reason why McLaren should get a different treatment just because they are successful. Why don't they get the punishment they deserve?

Because in the eyes of the FIA and I suspect the vast majority of F1 fans and sponsors, both of whom F1 would not survive without, taking McLaren out of the driver's championship would have been a disaster for the sport.

However, I believe you are right, and had it been any of the “lesser known” teams, they would have at least been banned from the 2007 season.

I think they came up with a decent compromise, although I think had they also docked McLaren some driver's points as well, it would have not only quieted many of the critics who feel the punishment wasn't nearly enough, but would have made for a much more thrilling ending to the season with four drivers all within just a few points of each other.

Personally, I'm just happy to see this season coming to a close, and really hoping things are very different next year.

 

[Metar]

Third. What if this had happened for Super Aguri or Spyker? The team would be banned for two years without questioning. And I see no reason why McLaren should get a different treatment just because they are successful. Why don't they get the punishment they deserve?

Actually, as the RTL commentators highlighted... Spyker has plans for other team's cars. They actually were proud of saying "We know the STR has the same blueprints as the RBR, because we have them.

Yet nothing happened.

 

[Blake]

Actually, as the RTL commentators highlighted... Spyker has plans for other team's cars. They actually were proud of saying "We know the STR has the same blueprints as the RBR, because we have them.

Yet nothing happened.

You’re not a target unless you’re successful. Everything has so much more value when there’s money and championships on the table. As has been mentioned many time: remember when Toyota engineers stole Ferrari software and no action was taken against the team?

 

[slackbladder]

For me this whole thing comes down to did McLaren get an advantage out of this information. The answer is no. Ferrari and the FIA could not prove it. All that the evidence suggests was that McLaren did not use any information for their advantage. The WMC virtually admit it

some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms

. Change "was" to "may have been" and "though it may forever be" to "but it is" and you have a statement with no weight to it at all.
Read this from the BBC. It's interesting. The real report from the WMC is over 100 pages long.
Dennis knew of the documents. That much is clear. For me the real crime would have been if Mclaren had used it for their advantage. As that hasn't been proven then there is no case to answer. But then it was'nt a balanced court case, was it.

 

[Alfaholic]

Second, many people think that Hamilton is the saint and Alonso is the devil. In this case, tell me why Hamilton didn't give all the information he had for the FIA. Looks like trying to look clean to me.

I haven't seen anything that has shown that Hamilton witheld information. Certainly noone has said that he was copied on any of the emails from Alonso and De La Rosa, which would surprise me if he was in on the whole thing. This gives two possibilities:

1) Hamilton had the info, but decided not to submit it, either, as you say, to make himself look clean, or to make the team look clean, or as a decision not to rat on his team, and risking being punished himself.

2) Shocking and amazing as it may sound, he said he has no relevant info because 💡 he has no relevant info.

I wouldn't be surprised if he knew nothing. The emails didn't mention him (at least, what they've published didn't mention him), and Alonso had stopped sharing setup info with him, perhaps (speculation alert) partly to try and prevent his championship rival Hamilton gaining any advantage from the Ferrari info.

Personally I also think that Dennis knew nothing about it, especially after hearing about the conversation where Coughlin revealed his secret to his own superior, and was told to keep a lid on it. I don't see Dennis as a big risk taker, relatively speaking. I think he plans everything as far as he can, tries to plan as many risks and unknowns out of his strategies as possible, and I think that this would lead him to have a negative view on using stolen data. I just don't think he'd knowingly take such a risk. I also think this attitude shows in McLaren's pit strategies, which over the years have rarely been surprising, and have rarely appeared to be improvised.

I could be wrong though.