McLaren hit with record fine and lose all Constructors points

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Blake
You’re not a target unless you’re successful. Everything has so much more value when there’s money and championships on the table. As has been mentioned many time: remember when Toyota engineers stole Ferrari software and no action was taken against the team?
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Do you think Honda got their's out of the recycling? ;)
 
tigermoth737
I think I'd fire the prat instead of retiring over it.
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Unfortunately the prat is arguably the fastest driver on the grid and a double (maybe triple soon) World Champion. It would be a difficult decision to make, as McLaren have the best chance of winning with Alonso racing for them, and lets face the facts, Alonso has shown he hasn't needed to speak to Ron Dennis to be almost in the running to win every race since Hungry.
 
But a driver like Alonso doesn't need to whinge about being beaten and doesn't need to block his team-mate in pitlane. He's an extremely skilled driver and he shouldn't need to do things like that. Or maybe he's resorting to Schumi type tactics?
 
slackbladder
For me this whole thing comes down to did McLaren get an advantage out of this information. The answer is no.
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Actually we don't know that. You can, and many McLaren fans obviously will suggest they didn't, but as a point of fact we don't know.

We also don't know if or how long Coughlan was getting "help" from his buddy at Ferrari. What we do know though is that McLaren has had an absolutely stunning turnaround since last year in reliability and performance - not an impossible achievement to do without any "help", but given all the circumstances, one must also recognize the very strong possibility that they were getting help earlier than what has already been proven.

We Also know that McLaren did break rules and laws and were found guilty of it and found guilty of "using" that info. Coughlan knew bloody well what he was doing when he accepted Ferrari data, he knew bloody well what he was doing when he made copies of the Ferrari data, he knew bloody well what he was doing when he read through and shared this info with others at McLaren, and those at McLaren that were involved knew bloody well what they were doing when they got this info.

People can sugar coat it all they want, but those are the facts.

As has already been mentioned many times already here and in the media, McLaren got off easy, and had it been a "lesser" team they would have very likely been suspended from F1 for at leat the remaining part of the 2007 season.
 
Casio
Unfortunately the prat is arguably the fastest driver on the grid and a double (maybe triple soon) World Champion. It would be a difficult decision to make, as McLaren have the best chance of winning with Alonso racing for them, and lets face the facts, Alonso has shown he hasn't needed to speak to Ron Dennis to be almost in the running to win every race since Hungry.
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Good point. Alonso is an invaluable asset in terms of development, as well as raw speed.

But there's a limit to the abuse Dennis can take.
 
Digital-Nitrate
We also don't know if or how long Coughlan was getting "help" from his buddy at Ferrari.
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Don’t we? Coughlan testified that he was first contacted by Stepney at the beginning of March and AFAIK no one has disputed that fact.

By March it was already clear that the McLaren had the fastest car over one lap while the Ferrari was the better race car.

Here are some quotes from a thread made in February:

BMW318ciC
Ferrari and McMerc are doing well until now .
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Blake
McLaren have the fastest car, but I heard early on that they were struggling with race pace. I haven’t heard them say that they’ve fixed this problem, so it will be interesting to see how they do in the races. Especially when against a pit crew and strategists from Ferrari.

Ferrari have what is probably the overall fastest package. A quick car, very quick drivers, and a fantastic race crew. All the bits are there for a fantastic season, they just have to make it happen. They will be up against McLaren who can really make a car begin to sing as development continues into the season, but I don’t expect Ferrari to have problems with development.

I expect McLaren and Ferrari to battle it out for the championship. I think it will be a two-horse race. If they don’t win it’s going to be because of a strange race.
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Bee
To me there is there no evident fastest team, both Ferrari and McLaren seem to have the upper hand though however McLaren appear to have the one lap pace whilst Ferrari look more prominent over the longer stints. This may well be due to the new Bridgestone control tyre but either way, it will be a close battle, McLaren may well take the drivers with Alonso but Ferrari should take the teams with their awesome combo of Massa and Raikkonen.
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Do you race?
it will probably be Ferrari vs McLaren all the way.
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We knew McLaren would be in the title chase before any contact was made between Coughlan and Stepney. Make of that what you will, but I want to dispute the fact that you are trying to attribute their turnaround in reliability and performance to a few personnel having knowledge of Ferrari documents with sporting and technical information in them. Documents that were not in the hands of any McLaren employees until mid-March.
 
Digital-Nitrate
As has already been mentioned many times already here and in the media, McLaren got off easy, and had it been a "lesser" team they would have very likely been suspended from F1 for at leat the remaining part of the 2007 season.
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Had it been a lesser team, it's likely that nothing would've happened at all. See Toyota having Ferrari data, and Spyker having Red Bull/Toro Rosso blueprints.
 
Max Mosley just doesn't give it up...


Max Mosley has claimed that F1's 'spying' scandal has not harmed the sport, but nevertheless reiterated that McLaren-Mercedes could yet face further punishment.

The FIA president has threatened the Anglo-German team with exclusion from the 2008 championship should their challenger contain any of Ferrari's intellectual property.

McLaren have to present the chassis they intend on using next season to the FIA - who will then decide whether to allow the Woking outfit to compete.

And yet Mosley is already of the belief that, but for the team's likely bankruptcy, they should also be excluded from contesting next year's championship.

"Everything will come out in detail and we will all be surprised," Mosley told The Daily Express. "I feel the only way to have a fair championship in 2008 would have been to exclude McLaren but that would probably have put them out of business."

Decision

Mosley added that he opposed the World Motor Sport Council's decision to allow McLaren's drivers to compete for this year's drivers' title, complaining that "hearts ruled heads".

McLaren were fined $100 million and stripped of their 2007 constructors' championship points a fortnight ago, after new evidence came to light which supported an earlier charge of 'fraudulent conduct'.

"It would have been correct to throw Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton out of this year's drivers' championship but in the WMSC, hearts ruled heads," he continued.

"If there was serious evidence of Ferrari's influence in any McLaren design, however, we would have to take action.

"We don't want this to drag on but I don't feel it has harmed F1. The fans and sponsors who are putting in huge sums of money want to know the sport is honest.
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Blake
Don&#8217;t we?
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No, we don't.

All we "know" is what has been made public, and no matter what Coughlan claims, or what evidence has not been discovered or revealed, doesn't mean he is telling the truth or if McLaren hasn't had "access" to Ferrari data long before March. After all he has lied several times already during this whole mess, McLaren has had a stunning turnaround in reliability combined with performance, and apparently there is more to this story that has not yet been released to the public...


"Everything will come out in detail and we will all be surprised," Mosley told The Daily Express. "I feel the only way to have a fair championship in 2008 would have been to exclude McLaren but that would probably have put them out of business."
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Sounds like what many people speculated is true, and that there is more evidence against McLaren that has yet been made public.


So no, we don't know. We can only speculate one way or the other.
 
But the transcripts from the hearings were released and the only thing remotely newsworthy about that was that Ron and Fernando hadn&#8217;t spoken since the race in Hungary.
 
"We don't want this to drag on but I don't feel it has harmed F1. The fans and sponsors who are putting in huge sums of money want to know the sport is honest.
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Fantastic :D
 
Digital-Nitrate
Sounds like what many people speculated is true, and that there is more evidence against McLaren that has yet been made public.


So no, we don't know. We can only speculate one way or the other.
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That's right we can only speculate about certain elements of it, however I have read the transcript of the last meeting and nothing in it proves that McLaren did anything other than have access to the Ferrari data. In fact quite interestingly the word 'Prove' is never used, and 'Proven' in only used by Ron Dennis...

Ron Dennis
Once that inspection has been proven to be devoid of anything that could possibly be related to Ferrari intellectual property, I would like that in the public domain as quickly as possible.
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...quite simply the entire thing is based around evidence that information 'may' or 'could' or is 'suspected' of being used. Nothing is actually proven at all.


In a related matter Max Mosley has also now called Jackie Stewart a 'certified halfwit' over the issue....

Crash.net
FIA
boss Max Mosley has seemingly called former triple world champion Jackie Stewart a 'certified halfwit' during a tirade in response to the Scot's criticisms of the £50m fine handed down to McLaren in the wake of the F1 Spying Scandal, The Mail on Sunday website is reporting.
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Source - http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~154922.htm


Regards

Scaff
 
Max Mosley
...Then he starts saying this is personal between me and Ron Dennis, at great length, because everything he does is at extreme length.

&#8220;It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships. But nobody else in Formula One does &#8212; not the teams, not the drivers. He's a figure of fun among drivers."

Presumably referring to the tartan trousers and matching hat Stewart wears to GPs, the President of the FIA added, &#8220;He goes round dressed up as a 1930s music hall man. He's a certified halfwit.&#8221;
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:lol: Slightly harsh there i think Max.
 
I think it has, and yet is still riddled with assumptions disguised as facts... which doesn't exactly give it much strength or merit.
 
I like how you assume everyone's testimony is truthfull and or fully disclosing the facts.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Blake
I still like that you disregard testimony from those involved as assumptions.
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Stepney has been lying about his involvement in this case from the get go and no doubt is still lying about it.

Personally I think he is still on a Vendetta against Ferrari and wants to see them crash and burn by any means necessary. I hope they give him some prison time in Italy when he is judged.
 
People will just believe what they want to believe, we're stupid like that. You'll have me believing Alonso is just the victim in this, others that Hamilton is a pure and innocent saint... ;)
 
I don't really understand why they would swap information. Unless it is an elaborate scheme to get both teams thrown out of the championship (too conspiracy theory for my liking), why bother? If it is an elaborate scheme to get both teams thrown out of the championship, why didn't Stepney or Coughlan come forward with this info when it would have made a difference?

I think Stepney was trying to make Ferrari lose, and failed, and is now trying another method to bury them.

Oops I just made a conspiracy theory :ouch:
 
From what I understand, everything started when the two wanted to move over to Honda together - and took information with them. Stepney giving data sounds just as logical.
 
Alfaholic
I don't really understand why they would swap information. Unless it is an elaborate scheme to get both teams thrown out of the championship (too conspiracy theory for my liking), why bother? If it is an elaborate scheme to get both teams thrown out of the championship, why didn't Stepney or Coughlan come forward with this info when it would have made a difference?
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The swapping, or stealing, of information has been going on in F1 probably forever. It just so happens that in this day and age, electronic media leaves more evidence of such goings on. I don't think that anyone (with maybe the exception of Ferrari senior management) was trying to get any team thrown out of the championship. With teams employing so many personnel no individual has got anything to gain if there is a sudden influx of F1 team talant on the job market following a team having to close down.
 
Niki Lauda commented - it's been going on since F1 exists. He stated he himself did it with his teammates, listening to other's radios, trying to find out other's tyre-pressures and suspension-setups... Frank Williams said the same - "I didn't ask for data from new recruits. I already expected them to have it."
 
I've got no doubt that the teams have been trying to learn eachothers secrets since the dawn of F1, but what about swapping info, as in "I'll show you mine if you show me yours", which is what Stepney's comments suggest? I just don't see a big advantage in that... you learn their setup, they learn yours. Everyone gets faster, but noone progresses up the table.
 
Alfaholic
I've got no doubt that the teams have been trying to learn eachothers secrets since the dawn of F1, but what about swapping info, as in "I'll show you mine if you show me yours", which is what Stepney's comments suggest? I just don't see a big advantage in that... you learn their setup, they learn yours. Everyone gets faster, but noone progresses up the table.
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Because the individuals who 'learn' these secrets can take the credit for discovering the advantages.
 

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