McLaren not so fast?

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Do you race?
Be a bit embarrssing if Brawn beat them when they're Mercedes' engine customer. Kind of like when Super Aguri were looking to humilate Honda before a lack of testing meant the fell behind in 2007.

If it is indeed true that McLaren copy the BGP-001, I hope every maniacal Hamilton fan out there knows that the McLaren's success was a product of another British team's - and another British driver's - fruits of labour.
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:sly:That:sly:

Completely agree. Also, McLaren may be able to get their act together by the mid season.
 
The Brawn is perfectly legal, and exactly like the other cars. The secret is that it takes almost all of the good ideas into one package - the Renault/Williams ideas of front diffusers, the Toyota/Williams extended diffusers, McLaren's high sidepods - and combines them to a package that just works. There's no point speculating now - the Brawn is as fast as it looks: 1'18.3 is what the STR3 (2008 car) ran on a bad slicks day - and the fastest 2009-car time is RBR's 1'19 flat. At both Barcelona and Jerez, the Brawn cars set times a whopping 7 tenths faster than anyone else.
 
Metar
The Brawn is perfectly legal, and exactly like the other cars. The secret is that it takes almost all of the good ideas into one package - the Renault/Williams ideas of front diffusers, the Toyota/Williams extended diffusers, McLaren's high sidepods - and combines them to a package that just works. There's no point speculating now - the Brawn is as fast as it looks: 1'18.3 is what the STR3 (2008 car) ran on a bad slicks day - and the fastest 2009-car time is RBR's 1'19 flat. At both Barcelona and Jerez, the Brawn cars set times a whopping 7 tenths faster than anyone else.
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Is this Renault's under nose splitter - I didn't realise the Williams has something similar?
 
Renault had a "classic" front diffuser, Williams had a similar-in-concept idea of a "plow" - ultimately, Honda has both.
 
Clearly I wasn't talking about BGP divulging their developments to the world; I was speaking in response to the people who say their speed is due to the gearbox or some extremely clever design that gives them this incredible advantage.
 
Do you race?
Funny you should say that, because it's something I've said repeatedly over the past two years: Hamilton has always hada highly-competitive car under him. He's always started on or near the front row, and the times when he hasn't have been pretty mediocre. I've been very curious for a while now as to how he'd go in a car that is of the pace.
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I think it's time Hamilton paid his dues...
I don't believe any driver has ever had as easy an entrance to F1 as Lewis, ever. Ron Dennis so completely enabled him. I think he would be dangerously desperate to prove himself in a mediocre car.
 
mustang245
I think it's time Hamilton paid his dues...
I don't believe any driver has ever had as easy an entrance to F1 as Lewis, ever. Ron Dennis so completely enabled him. I think he would be dangerously desperate to prove himself in a mediocre car.
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It does not matter how easy an entrance Hamilton had to F1. He still had to deliver and he has done that.

By the way he still had to race for years to get into F1 just like everybody else.
 
Tired Tyres
By the way he still had to race for years to get into F1 just like everybody else.
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Although, it has been noted he generally had the best car/team in almost all the series he's raced in. I mean, he certainly hasn't the hardest entrance at all.
I'm not saying anything against his talent, he clearly has it, but he didn't exactly have a hard time getting up to F1, especially comapred to other drivers of similar skills.
I'm not saying some people shouldn't have an easy time either.

Well, whatever we think, this season looks like Hamilton will have the chance to show his skills in a car that isn't exactly the best. So even if you think he doesn't need to prove anything, he can anyway now.
 
Tired Tyres
It does not matter how easy an entrance Hamilton had to F1. He still had to deliver and he has done that.

By the way he still had to race for years to get into F1 just like everybody else.
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👍

To say that Lewis Hamilton has had an easy ride in either 2007 or 2008, you'd have to be joking... Kimi summed up it nicely, "Anyone who wins the F1 World Championship, deserves it".

My workmate showed me a picture of the McLaren today, covered in green stuff, and explaining to me that this was a sure sign that McLaren are in serious doo-doo... I presume this is because they are having serious aerodynamics issues, but does anyone know more about it?
 
A problem with the airflow to the rear wing is all we can guess, they have been frantically updating and testing their rear aero a lot and messing about with little bits such as cuts in the floor around that area affecting airflow to that area.
They also seem to be having the same old problems of eating through tyres looking at the stint times, especially compared to the Brawn, which has very consistent times throughout.
 
Touring Mars
My workmate showed me a picture of the McLaren today, covered in green stuff, and explaining to me that this was a sure sign that McLaren are in serious doo-doo... I presume this is because they are having serious aerodynamics issues, but does anyone know more about it?
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It's a type of paraffin-based oil, usually called "Flow-Vis", because of it's function: To visualize airflow around the car. Essentially, the teams spray this on the car (either before the test, or from a nozzle while driving), and the aerodynamic pressures on the body deform and move the substance (which is pretty viscous), and engineers can then spot high- and low-pressure zones on the car, which helps them visualize the flow of air over the car. This is a common procedure by the teams, although many now use a version which isn't green, but rather glows under UV light - helps their secrecy a bit, and doesn't look like the driver just ran over a little green-blooded alien.

Now, why does this stuff appear to spell trouble for McLaren?

Teams usually use this in order to confirm their predictions - in order to verify that the aero works just like their CFD and wind-tunnel suggested. A test or two with the substance are common - but when you run it (along with the "birdcage" sensors) throughout winter-testing while admitting to a lack of pace, it shows one thing: McLaren's aerodynamics aren't up to snuff, but worse yet, their wind-tunnel and CFD aren't calibrated. It means that whatever they've been working on in the tunnel turns out to be rubbish on the track, and that they need to recalibrate and reorganize their tunnels. The cause? Could be software problems or bad calibration of the tunnel (which Honda badly suffered from in 2007), but could very well be problems with the wheels, the interactions of which are pretty important to the aerodynamics of the car (it's what made the 2007 Renault so slow - they didn't anticipate the change in both aerodynamics and driving-characteristics). Without in-season testing, McLaren cannot be sure of their developments if their tunnel doesn't predict the car correctly.


Also, just for kicks, since I don't have full data or even a full story: It's been said that Michelin developed a special tyre, the "Alpha", which apparently had such superior mechanical grip that it gained them a whole second. The problem? It interfered with the aerodynamics so much, that the gained grip couldn't compensate for the decrease in downforce.
 
👍 Thanks for that...! It certainly seems a bit late in the day to be finding out that your models/simulations are all borked...

Metar
the driver just ran over a little green-blooded alien.
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Happens all the time round my way... :sick:
 
It'l show the airflow, obviously and perhaps airflow concentration and desnity for certain parts of the car, but I'm no computer fluid dynamicist...
 
Uh oh:
120038.jpg


More Flow-vis stuff (blue this time) but more importantly, McLaren are running a half and half car, with different aero designs on either side. This is seriously looking desperate.
 
Must have worked, they set the 3rd fastest time at jerez in this year's testing, unfortunately.
 
Heikki did some 3 lap stints to achieve that though. They are making progress, and they are improving, but they are still behind the apparent front row teams.
His later stint times aren't as impressive, once again back in the 1'20s and 1'19s.

Edit: Correction of lap stints.
 
SUPER NUMBBER
If the McLaren really is that bad, would Hamilton be considered the best driver on the grid if he brings it in first?
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No he wouldnt be considered the best driver on the grid because there would still be better drivers that have been able to do the same thing on multiple occasions. Now if he can do it several races in a row maybe. But then again it would have to be a car that is proven to not be as fast as the others. So let's say McLaren does manage to get the act together before Australia then it wouldn't count BECAUSE he's in a good car again. But I don't see that happening and I don't see Hamilton being able to take a good car and show fast times with it like Alonso was able to do with Renault last year. If that was the case his times in testing would have been better and a more noticeable difference than his teammate's times in testing. Also he wouldn't have crashed the car twice DUE to "wind". But if McLaren does come out with a midfield car at Australia and Hamilton only qualifies midfield and manages to fight his way to the front then I will give him more respect as a good driver but I don't think that's going to happen.

Edited cuz i just reread it and realised some things got capatilaized that shouldnt have (stupid caps lock sticking)
 
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I don't remember many drivers being able to pull this feat on multiple occasions; only the great ones. And how exactly can you "prove" how a car compares to others? If testing times are everything to go by on car performance, as some have concluded, then it is understood that McLaren is a bottom feeder team this year, and only the best driver could pull McLaren into consistent podiums...unless we've been putting too much stock into the testing and all this doom and gloom was for naught.
 
SUPER NUMBBER
If the McLaren really is that bad, would Hamilton be considered the best driver on the grid if he brings it in first?
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If he pulls off a Hill-Hungary'97 of sorts, I will be very impressed.

But I already rate him highly as a driver for his skill, this will be a test of his ability to pace himself in the middle of the pack and make the best of fuel strategies.

My opinion of Hamilton is slowly changing recently because he's made some good comments about various things and seems to be talking with a bit more thought and experience. Now he just needs to stop listening to the McLaren people about what to say and just tell it to us straight, thats my main issue with him really, too corporate.

I think most willl find it also refreshing to see him in a car/team which isn't the best on the current grid, unlike his previous years in motorsport and for most of his career.
 
SUPER NUMBBER
I don't remember many drivers being able to pull this feat on multiple occasions; only the great ones. And how exactly can you "prove" how a car compares to others? If testing times are everything to go by on car performance, as some have concluded, then it is understood that McLaren is a bottom feeder team this year, and only the best driver could pull McLaren into consistent podiums...unless we've been putting too much stock into the testing and all this doom and gloom was for naught.
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simply way to judge if the cars midfield or not is if in qualifying kovalienen (sp?) is just as fast as hamilton and hamilton is in the front 3 rows at qualifiying. will show that over the last 2 weeks McLaren was able to salvage there car for the season. but if they both come out and are only doing midfield times then hamilton is able to fight his way to the front then it will give hamilton more credit as a great driver.
 
So I guess we agree that only until the starting grid is settled at Australia will we truly know what the pace of these cars will be, and that pre-season testing results mean little.

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