McLaren's HQ Investigated / Renault to answer spying charge

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Yeah, I should :ouch:

(but I never thought that, once published, that letter would be again removed. McLaren guys are confused, and confusing ...)

Anyway, besides from what comes expressed in their press statement, I can tell you (from memory)that:

The letter is dated from december 5th

It's adressed to Mr Max Mosley and the WMSC

McLaren doesn' agree with all the inspection's conclusions but concedes that the "whistleblowing" from Stepney to Coughlan was more widely known in the team than just Mr. Alonso and Mr. De La Rosa.

They accept a moratorium regardind the development of two or three systems ("quickshift" was one of them, can't recall the others), but I'm not sure what that really means.

However (and this will, I know, please Scaff) they still say that no information from Ferrari was used in the 2007 car and will not be used in the 2008 car.


EDIT: No, Sting, that's the press release, not the letter itself.


RE-EDIT: It's available again !!!!!!!!!! The only difference is that they covered the words concerning the "systems" I referred above. I'm sorry to have such a few amount of RAM in my brain, but, apart from the "quickshift" one, the only other thing I can remember was something that envolved CO2 gas

RE-RE-EDIT: Ok, F1-live.com saved the letter :D and here is a quote from their latest piece of news: "The letter to Mosley seeks discussions "as to a moratorium of an appropriate length" on the use of "quickshift, fast fill and CO2 as a tyre gas."


(I'm really trying not to double/triple/quadruple post ou quote myself, but I hope you moderators understand that things are happening while I'm writing, so I just keep editing this post .... )
 
I saved a copy. It has 2 lines blacked out, presumably the ones that refer to the quickshift and CO2 gas.
 
Ok, now it's only on gtplanet that you can know what are the names of the three technical issues in question.

They were deleted from the letter, in McLaren's site.

They were removed from the F1.live news.

They don't appear in the report to the FIA from the technical department (a very good read, pity it is so full of [redacted-confidential] tags.

Anyone here knows anyone in Force India? :sly:


EDIT:

PS - Mr Mosley is, apparently satisfied with the apologies, and wants the matter now closed ...

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071213195034.shtml

that's good news, methinks ...
 
Maybe now people will shut up about there being a witchhunt by the FIA to get McLaren and stop saying that McLaren never intended to use anything that they had.
 
I don't think that what you wrote is a conspiracy theory. I'm sure this was all agreed (McLaren apologises, case closed by the FIA, Ferrari accepts it also but continues with the legal cases both in England and Italy)
 
The FIA told Mclaren to apologise or they'd ban their 2008 car. [/conspiracy]

A freind of a freind of a freinds' dad apparently heard max mosley threatening mclaren to turn the car off or have their 2008 car banned. Of course, I beleive it :dunce:

Ferrari
International
Assistance
 
Finally, this crap has come to an end. Now we can focus on the racing and not the court room.

Not quite. Ferrari being the stuck up jerks that they are, are still pursuing court action in Italy and England.
 
Not quite. Ferrari being the stuck up jerks that they are, are still pursuing court action in Italy and England.
Oh my. Think about it this way. You have a company that is doing well. Someone takes your precious information and uses it to gain advantage on you, while taking away your success. I bet you want something in return from them. Are you "the stuck up jerk" if you don't want to let them get away with it after apologizing? I didn't think so either.

It's not the racing Ferrari vs, the racing McLaren anymore, it's now the company Ferrari vs. the company McLaren. No FIA involved. Only civil court. Two companies fighting it out about industrial espionage.

It still seems that FIA is thought to be the official assistant of Ferrari. Damn it people. Did it ever cross your mind that McLaren was guilty as charged and deserved what they got?
 
Not quite. Ferrari being the stuck up jerks that they are, are still pursuing court action in Italy and England.
"sigh" I'm just about ready to give up on F1.
 
Oh my. Think about it this way. You have a company that is doing well. Someone takes your precious information and uses it to gain advantage on you, while taking away your success. I bet you want something in return from them. Are you "the stuck up jerk" if you don't want to let them get away with it after apologizing? I didn't think so either.

It's not the racing Ferrari vs, the racing McLaren anymore, it's now the company Ferrari vs. the company McLaren. No FIA involved. Only civil court. Two companies fighting it out about industrial espionage.

It still seems that FIA is thought to be the official assistant of Ferrari. Damn it people. Did it ever cross your mind that McLaren was guilty as charged and deserved what they got?

Sure, they were guilty and the full extent they have now admitted to...... so why dont Ferrari discontinue their legal action to bring a true end to all this? It's them that won't let this matter go.
 
Sure, they were guilty and the full extent they have now admitted to...... so why dont Ferrari discontinue their legal action to bring a true end to all this? It's them that won't let this matter go.

Uh… seriously?

You’re blaming and insulting a company for trying to protect their rights?

I’m so sick of this topic. :banghead:
 
Oh my. Think about it this way. You have a company that is doing well. Someone takes your precious information and uses it to gain advantage on you, while taking away your success. I bet you want something in return from them. Are you "the stuck up jerk" if you don't want to let them get away with it after apologizing? I didn't think so either.

It's not the racing Ferrari vs, the racing McLaren anymore, it's now the company Ferrari vs. the company McLaren. No FIA involved. Only civil court. Two companies fighting it out about industrial espionage.

It still seems that FIA is thought to be the official assistant of Ferrari. Damn it people. Did it ever cross your mind that McLaren was guilty as charged and deserved what they got?
The two highlighted words are the ones of interest to me.

McLaren were given the information by a Ferrari employee, they did not go and take it. Should McLaren have informed the FIA immediately and blown the whistle on this person, yes they should. For not doing so promptly they suffered a very firm punishment, but please do not imply that McLaren actively sourced this information, as not a shread of evidence has been presented to show that.

The same is true of the send highlighted part, the FIA themselves have clearly stated that they can't prove that McLaren used the information, with the transcript stating that they had could not show 'to a legal standard' that McLaren had used the info to gain an advantage.

I understand that you get frustrated with people who you see as defending McLaren/bashing Ferrari, but please also try and play fair in the opposite direction as well, no evidence to support the statments you made exists.



Uh… seriously?

You’re blaming and insulting a company for trying to protect their rights?

I’m so sick of this topic. :banghead:
So if McLaren sue Renault then Greycap and yourself will be fine with that?



Regards

Scaff
 
Yeah I like to hear what Blake and Greycap think of that Scaff.
 
I thought it was criminal investigation of industrial espionage, against the people involved by the Italian and English authorities, not a civil action between Ferrari and McLaren? Does anyone have any info on which it is?
 
The two highlighted words are the ones of interest to me.

McLaren were given the information by a Ferrari employee, they did not go and take it. Should McLaren have informed the FIA immediately and blown the whistle on this person, yes they should. For not doing so promptly they suffered a very firm punishment, but please do not imply that McLaren actively sourced this information, as not a shread of evidence has been presented to show that.

The same is true of the send highlighted part, the FIA themselves have clearly stated that they can't prove that McLaren used the information, with the transcript stating that they had could not show 'to a legal standard' that McLaren had used the info to gain an advantage.

I understand that you get frustrated with people who you see as defending McLaren/bashing Ferrari, but please also try and play fair in the opposite direction as well, no evidence to support the statments you made exists.

Hello? :dunce:

McLaren apologized after it was determined that they had used the Ferrari data in the design of their 2008 car, on multiple systems. That is the ONLY REASON they apologized, they were not trying to take the high road and put this behind them, maybe if they had apologized and admitted everything from the get go then they might have escaped penalty (like we all thought they did after the first hearing). Thank god Renault learned from McLaren's mistakes.

Scaff
So if McLaren sue Renault then Greycap and yourself will be fine with that?

Regards

Scaff

Yes, they can do whatever they want. The difference with the Renault case and McLaren/Ferrari is that Renault were (based on what we know) COMPLETELY OPEN AND TRUTHFUL about what they had, how they got it and what had been done with it, while McLaren were trying to deflect everything about their case.

It seems like you people have been brought up thinking that Ferrari is Evil and McLaren can do absolutely nothing wrong, well maybe it's time to think again ffs.
 
I think its time this arguing, along with this case, needs to stop.
 
Hello? :dunce:

McLaren apologized after it was determined that they had used the Ferrari data in the design of their 2008 car, on multiple systems. That is the ONLY REASON they apologized, they were not trying to take the high road and put this behind them, maybe if they had apologized and admitted everything from the get go then they might have escaped penalty (like we all thought they did after the first hearing). Thank god Renault learned from McLaren's mistakes.
As far as I am aware (and I must admit I have been away with work for a few days without web access) the FIA have not yet inspected the 2008 McLaren car.

The letter in question from McLaren is in regard to forthcoming inspections...

Crash.net
In a letter to the sport's governing body, McLaren has admitted that more Ferrari information had infiltrated the team than had at first been realised or revealed.

The Woking-based outfit was fined a sporting record $100 million USD for having been found in possession of confidential Ferrari data earlier this year, and excluded from the 2007 constructors' championship at a World Motor Sport Council hearing in September.

With its 2008 car now due to be heavily scrutinised by the FIA
before being cleared to race in case it is deemed to contain any influences from Maranello, McLaren has taken the step of writing to the governing body to apologise over the matter – one that has rocked the sport to its core – and insist it will offer its full co-operation in any upcoming inspections.

A statement on the team's official website reads as follows:

‘As a result of the investigations carried out by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, it has become clear that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. McLaren greatly regrets that its own investigations did not identify this material, and has written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise for this.

‘McLaren has written a letter to the FIA, which in the interests of transparency it is publishing with this press statement. That letter speaks for itself, and the sentiments expressed in it are sincerely held by McLaren. McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information, and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations.


McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures, and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

‘To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems. During the course of these incidents, McLaren has conducted a thorough review of its policies and procedures regarding the recruitment and management of staff. The proposals arising from this thorough review have been disclosed to the FIA, and McLaren has agreed to demonstrate that all of these policies and procedures have been fully implemented.

‘McLaren wish to make a public apology to the FIA, Ferrari, the Formula 1
community and to Formula 1 fans throughout the world, and offer their assurance that changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again. McLaren have also agreed to pay the costs incurred by the FIA for their investigation.

‘McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season.'[/qoute]
Source - http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/158116-0/mclaren_apologises_over_spy_saga.html

...now if you have a link that shows the inspections have been carried out and that McLarens letter is in regard to an inspection of the 2008 car it would be much appreciated.

How ever if the 2008 car inspections have not been carried out then we are back at a situation of no proof of use (and a voluntary moratorium on three systems is not an admission of guilt, particularly if one is quickshift as a number of manufacturers have been working in this area for the last few years)


Edited to add - Many appologies just found this....

McLaren were poised to use systems on their 2008 car that had been inspired by secret Ferrari information given to them by Nigel Stepney, the FIA's technical report on the matter reveals.

Having conducted a detailed examination of the design of McLaren's 2008 car, to see if any Ferrari intellectual property had been used, the FIA report published on Thursday claims that there was evidence of such activity.

Although what the specific parts and systems are have not been revealed, to keep McLaren's own technical secrets confidential, the report is adamant that some elements of the MP4-23 design was scheduled to include technology inspired by confidential Ferrari information.

The report states: "The [redacted - confidential] system appears to have been re-investigated and developed by McLaren as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information.

"Despite senior McLaren management imposing a hiatus on development at the time the (Mike) Coughlan activities were revealed, McLaren now intend to use [redcated - confidential] on the 2008 car."

It added: "The [redacted - confidential] mechanism which McLaren has developed since the 3 May 2007 Coughlan meeting is intended to be used on the 2008 car and appears to have been initiated by the receipt of confidential Ferrari information."

Detailed examination of the report shows that one area where McLaren had appeared to utilise the Ferrari information was in the creation of a new brake balance system.

The report states: "It appears on the basis of these documents that the genesis of the idea to incorporate a [redacted - confidential] on the McLaren 2008 car emanated from the emails exchanged on 12 April 2007 concerning Ferrari's [redacted – confidential] system and the meeting called on 3 May 2007 by Coughlan. We have not been presented with a convincing explanation to displace the impression given by the documents."

The report also states that McLaren were ready to consider the use of CO2 gas in their tyres, as Ferrari do. It is believed 'more likely than not' that the idea came to the team from information given by Nigel Stepney.

The report states: "We believe the general investigation by McLaren of the use of [redcated – confidential] established further dissemination of confident Ferrari information to engineers within McLaren which has influenced their work on the 2007 and 2008 cars."

The FIA document also reveals that engineers within the team were aware of a Ferrari 'mole' passing information to them.

One email exchange between engineers on April 13, 2007 discussing steering angles mentioned an exact figure for the Ferrari wheelbase. A response from a senior McLaren engineer was: "Is the Ferrari wheelbase an accurate figure? Did it come from photos or our mole?"

The response was: "You will find it's to the nearest 'mm'."

The report states: "On a natural reading of this exchange and taking into account the suggested explanations for it, we have concluded that both [Senior McLaren Engineer] and [Senior McLaren Engineer] were aware that confidential Ferrari information was being leaked through a mole and were prepared to use that information for McLaren's benefit in the design of the 2007 and 2008 cars."

The report reveals that McLaren indeed decided to follow Ferrari's example and increase the wheelbase of their car for 2008, although it could not prove whether this was because of the secret Ferrari information or because of information that was readily available and in the public domain.

McLaren have apologised to the FIA for not being aware of just how far the Ferrari information obtained by the team had spread within their organisation, and the report reveals that even a 'Senior McLaren management figure' was aware of what was going on.

It states the unidentified senior McLaren management figure advised the team to abandon work on a secret technical development because of the spy case surrounding the team.

The report states that on August 8, a senior McLaren engineer communicated a decision reached by a senior McLaren management figure to junior staff members that they were to abandon their efforts on the development

"I would not change the [redacted – confidential] direction until we have to, i.e., when we eventually run the [redacted – confidential]. We will obviously ask for this again for Turkey but I'm not hopeful that we will run this until the outstanding FIA agro [sic] is resolved."

McLaren have vowed to cease development work on the parts that could have been inspired by Ferrari knowledge, and the FIA stated on Thursday night that it was now willing to bring the matter to a close.
Source - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374

However I'm still of the opinion that the widespread use of 'believe' and nothing in the way of real proof, as the article states. The direction cars are headed in is quite common knowledge in a lot of areas, take for example the lower wheelbase of the '07 Ferrari, this has been discussed openly since the car was unveiled and a number of teams stated early this year that they may follow that lead if it was shown to work. Drawing an exact line between what is inspired by and what is a direct copy of it difficult enough already, before this situation came along.

The CO2 in tyres one is a good case in point, as the piece last month in Racecar Engineering covered, CO2 is not the main issue in this one at all. Quite frankly I doubt if Ferrari would give a damn if anyone else used CO2, as it was simply to act as a stable carrier to a cocktail of other gases, and these gasses were the ones that played an active role in controlling tyre temperature, not the CO2.



Yes, they can do whatever they want. The difference with the Renault case and McLaren/Ferrari is that Renault were (based on what we know) COMPLETELY OPEN AND TRUTHFUL about what they had, how they got it and what had been done with it, while McLaren were trying to deflect everything about their case.
Of course Renault would have taken the same approach had the McLaren situation not occurred; its also being forgotten on this one that McLaren went to the FIA about the Renault situation, not Renault.



It seems like you people have been brought up thinking that Ferrari is Evil and McLaren can do absolutely nothing wrong, well maybe it's time to think again ffs.
Sorry but I don't appreciate the tone or insinuation. Most people here have not been of the impression that McLaren have done no wrong at all. Simply we have asked that the punishment be proportionate to the situation and that similar situations are dealt with in a similar manner.

Personally I don't see either happening here, in addition I have not blamed Ferrari for this situation (in fact I have hardly mentioned them myself), nor have I said that McLaren can do no wrong. I follow drivers not teams, so the teams in question hold no particular loyalty issues (can you say as much), rather the situation interests me.


Regards

Scaff
 
First I'd like to apologize for my hostility in the previous post, I thought you already knew the most recent information and were ignoring it.

Of course Renault would have taken the same approach had the McLaren situation not occurred; its also being forgotten on this one that McLaren went to the FIA about the Renault situation, not Renault.

Actually Renault brought the whole matter to McLaren first, and when McLaren heard of it: they went to the FIA. So I still think Renault are quite honorable.

Scaff
Sorry but I don't appreciate the tone or insinuation. Most people here have not been of the impression that McLaren have done no wrong at all. Simply we have asked that the punishment be proportionate to the situation and that similar situations are dealt with in a similar manner.

Personally I don't see either happening here, in addition I have not blamed Ferrari for this situation (in fact I have hardly mentioned them myself), nor have I said that McLaren can do no wrong. I follow drivers not teams, so the teams in question hold no particular loyalty issues (can you say as much), rather the situation interests me.


Regards

Scaff

Maybe not yourself, but there are quite a few people out there including Peter Windsor who will probably go to their grave defending McLaren about this issue. "We didn't steal anything, Nigel Stepney gave it to us" and so forth.

But enought about that, let's just hope that Heikki will have a great season(career?) with them.
 
Simply we have asked that the punishment be proportionate to the situation and that similar situations are dealt with in a similar manner.

You see, this is where my problem is with the whole situation:

When I first heard the verdict, I was unhappy. However, I am now of opinion that Mclaren's punishment goes a little bit too far, untill I read they were planning on using the info for the 2008 season as well. That would make the fine somewhat more reasonable if you split it into two, since they'd act against regulations for both the 2007 and 2008 seasons.

But to get to my point, why is Renault getting away with it so easy? I'm sure articles read different on all F1 sites, but I understood Renault had data, but since they admitted it, they got away with it...This is something I cannot understand, Renault should've recieved the minimal damage to their budget, or season status in my opinion...
 
So if McLaren sue Renault then Greycap and yourself will be fine with that?

Absolutely. If they believe they have a case in court, more power to them.

Remember, this is not just a sporting matter, it is a criminal matter too. If a team wants to go down that route than I’m perfectly fine with it.
 
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