Megashawn and the MSF

[Spectre600]

This is a responce to a post by Megashawn in the 'Preffered Riding Form' thread. It was getting way off topic, but I thought

it was a worthwile discussion.

No, I haven't been riding street bikes since the age of 4. I kinda figured that was obvious, but no.

However, I've learned alot from dirt riding. Presently I ride a drz 400 s. Its street legal, and I've put atleast 16,000

miles on it on the street. Before that I rode a Yamaha Virago 900 something, 926 I think.

You stated that you have been riding scince you were 4 and never wrecked on the street.. That is a rather ambiguos statement

seeing that the discussion about the MSF course was reffering to the street, not offroad. While its obvious you have not been

riding on the street scince you were 4, it was not clear how long you have been riding on the street..

This isnt really a big deal, as you *do* have alot of experience on dirtbikes and are obviously familiar with how to ride.

You just took issue with my comment so I wanted to clear it up. Thats all.

I've had numerous dirt bikes through the years though, and I've ridden them on the street. I have never,

ever wrecked a bike on pavement.

I dont know anyone who has totally wrecked thier bike. Most people I know have had minor tip-overs. And the people I know that havent taken the MSF course have all had low-sides.. None of them wrecked.

Now, I have a couple questions about this msf course that I couldn't find satisfactory answers to on the

site. A couple what if scenarios I'd like you to answer, scenarios that have actually happened to me.

Ok.. here we go..

1. You are traveling on a 2 lane interstate, bumper to bumper traffic, in the fast lane, concrete walls to your left, solid

traffic in front and behind, at 45 mph. THe old woman in the minivan to your right talking on a cell phone starts to merge

over into your area as if she does not see you. The honking of your horn is useless, there is no way to accelerate, due to

heavy traffic, and likewise breaking is not an option. What do you do to avoid certain death?

I have been in this situation. And I know others who have been in this situation as well. Because riding in traffic is such a

fluid thing, and each situation is different, its difficult to answer a generic question like this. But ill try, none the

less.

The obvious answer to this question, is to not be in the situation in the first place. Of course, you can get into situations

like this quite by accident, but with a little planning, you can avoid bumper-to-bumper heavy interstate traffic. When I

commuted to work (a 55 mile commute), I would take back roads specifically to avoid situations like this. Gridlock traffic is

NOT the place you want to be on a motorcycle. And they teach that to you in the MSF course.

Another preventative measure you can take is to wear BRIGHT clothing. The black leather jacket and dark gray helmet look

really bad-assed, but motorcycles are easy enough to miss in the first place (#1 thing a 'cager' says after they hit a

motorcycle is "I didnt even see him"). Wearing a hazard yellow jacket and white helmet doesent look cool, but youll be seen

much easier. This may not prevent the specific situation you are talking about, but it sure helps. They teach you that in the

MSF course.

Now, lets say that you didnt use answers 1 and 2. And you did get into this situation. The situation you discribe is one that

you are totally 'boxed in' (something they tell you to avoid at all costs in the msf course btw). Lets assume there is NO

margin next to you, and you have no room to manouver the bike. This is one of those rare 'im going to die' situations with no

escape. You boot the car. If its a choice between bieng turned into ground chuck, or breaking your foot, sacrifice your foot.

Kick the door as hard as you can.

This is a pretty unfair question IMO. Answer #1 takes care of it best, and they teach that in the MSF course. Ive had this

happen to me in a car as well, not just a bike. Your question is similar to asking "Your flying towards a brick wall, you

cant stop, you cant turn, your going to die. What do you do?"

2. You are traveling down a 2 lane country road at 60 mph. As you aproach a right hand corner, you notice a vehicle coming

in the oncoming lane, and a second vehicle traveling about 100 mph passing this vehicle coming head on at you. There is no

time to break, and no spare lane to move into. The side of the road is about 1.5 ft wide of grass, and then drops down a 6ft

embankment. What do you do?

Right, lets just review statement I have for the last question.

Because riding in traffic is such a fluid thing, and each situation is different, its difficult to answer a generic question

like this. But ill try, none the less.

Ill add that without seeing the specific corner you are reffering too, it doesent let me be creative with how to escape the

situation. Ill also add that this can happen to you in a car as well.

This is another "your flying towards a brick wall" question, looking to entrap me. But ill answer it none the less.

Scince you havent told me if there was a double yellow (ei, a passing zone, where you should be more cautious) or what is on

the other side of the road, or how far the cars are from you, or what bank, radius or condidion of the road is, it doesent

give you much of an option. You also limit the situation by claming there is no room to 'break' (im sure you mean brake). So

the only option that your situation affords me, is to drive into the grass.

Another stupid questionm IMO, somehow crafted to discredit the MSF.

As I mentioned, I was in both of these situations. I have never been instructed as to how to handle such scenarios, have

you? I promise 9/10 people faced with such problems would die, or have been seriously injured, MSF or not.

**I have been instructed on how to AVOID these situations. Just like ive been told to look both ways before i cross the

street, instead of dealing with oncoming traffic with nowhere to run.**

People who have taken the msf course are much less likely to get into these situations in the first place. They have been

instructed on what the biggest dangers of riding on the street are, and know how to avoid them.

Also, I know people who have taken these safety classes, and still ended up wrecking. I also know several people who have

ridden dirt bikes through most of there life and switch to street, and, have never had a problem.

Im sure you do. Im not sure what your beef with the MSF is, but the facts still stand. People who take the MSF course are

MUCH MORE likely to come out of a bad situation. Or to avoid it alltogether. Dirtbike experience helps alot when switching to

the street. But alot of people dont have ANY bike experience whatsoever, are you telling me that it makes no difference if

you take a street riding course or not? That would be pure ignorance. Dirtbike or not.

When you've rode through stuff like this;

there is little a class can teach you.

Pure Ignorance.

That doesent look like a street to me.. There is no traffic. You dont ride a 400 lb streetbike over that.

I dont care how much you have ridden on dirt, you can *NEVER* convince me that offroad and riding in traffic are the same

animal.

Now, if you haven't ridden, and are looking to get into riding on the street, you certainly should take a course on bike

safety, and, I would go a step further and recomend spending some time on a dirt bike. Learning to ride in mud, up and down

mountains, through creeks, rivers, sand, over logs, sliding, stoping, jumping, etc, are all very important aspects to bike

control. Of course, not everyone will do this, so, atleast get the class.

Bike control and riding in traffic require two completely different skill sets. The MSF teaches you both. While there are

many similarities between riding a dirtbike offroad, and riding a streetbike on pavement, there are different skills you must

learn. Dirtbike experience certainly helps.

Also, something else worth mention and I will not hijack anything further. Most "Professional bike racers" will not ride on

the street. There are to many unknown variables they are not prepared for. On the track, its nothing but corner entry

speed, exit speed, braking, acclerating, and watching out for other racers. On the street, its all this and watching out for

idiots on cell phones putting makeup on.

I ride over logs about 2 ft in diameter, a 2x4 is a bump in the road.

Your right, and wrong.. I know a few motorcycle racers, and I myself have been on the track. I wont EVER ride on the street

like I do on the track. You always must have a safety margin, so you have a little bit of room to spare when that cellphone

wielding cager comes into your space, or the idiot hotrodder passes in your lane. Most motorcycle racers will ride on the

street, but NONE will race on the street.

A 2x4 is a bump in the road, but on a bike with 4 inches of suspension travel going 75 mph, you need to know what your doing

and that needs to be a reaction. When you are faced with a situation like that, and ontop of that, you are dealing with

traffic and situational awareness.. its nice to have the experience of taking a street riding course.

The facts are there, the MSF helps. You would benifit from taking it, evryone does. You cant discredit it if you havent even

taken the course. Most places its free or minimal cost. They also have an advanced course.

You still have not convinced me that the MSF course doesent have profound benifits. Please dont steer others away from it.

Its the foundation to real streetbike competence.

Take the course, what do you have to loose?

 

[megashawn]

Ok, first and foremost all by itself, since you seemed to miss this part of my statement;

I DO NOT have a problem with MSF or any other motorcycle safety course. I may eventually take one if I get a true street bike, for no other reason then the fact it gives you an insurance discount.

Right now I ride a 239 lb street legal dirt bike. I put 14,000 miles on it riding up and down Highway 220, I 40, and Highway 29 from Asheboro to Greensboro NC, a 100 mile round trip 5 or 6 days a week. This area of highway is more commonly known as death valley. Sure It was suggested to me to find a less congested way to get to work, but, there was no better way.

The other 2 thousand or so miles were wracked up riding country roads and seeking trails.

Well, google maps says its 44.7 miles, but, I've done this trip 100's of times, they are off by a few.

As to your response to my scenarios, I don't where a black leather suit. My helmet is black, but uhm, have you ever seen a drz?

Thats similar to mine, but I have sobe graphics. Anyhow, I have since tried to where brighter colored shirts, and, one of the reasons I relocated and changed jobs was due to the traffic. I was forced of the road in a car just a few miles up the road, drove down a huge hill, and snapped my cv axles. Before I could return 24 hours later to retrieve my car, the city had towed it away.

Aside from the point, I did infact kick the crap out of the lady's door. She followed me all the way to my workplace, requested that I give her my insurance information to pay for the damage (Caravans dent quite easily with steel toed shoes) so I ended up calling the cops and explaining what had happened. The cops came out and issued her a ticket for careless driving and told he she should be thankful I kicked her van, as she would have most likely killed me had I not. I also had a co-worker witness this event, so that helped me even more.

The second scenario you sidestepped the answer. I realize it is diffucult to picture, but, just take my word for it. There was no option. If in a car, I'd be injured seriously, if on a sport bike or cruiser, I'd be splatter amongst the trees. I personally would have had time to come to a stop, maybe, but not enough time to stop and avoind getting run over by the f-150. Your right, the only option was to run off into the grass, but at 60 mph, on a sport bike, on the particular terrain of that turn, you would have been better off trying to jump into the bed of the oncoming truck. However, my years of dirt bike riding is the one single thing that brought me through this situation.

Neither of these were "crafted to somehow discredit MSF" but to merely point out that no amount of training can save everyone everytime. You can not deny that most people when faced with similar scenarios would have likely wrecked, or worse. I'm not saying you would, and I'm not saying I'll get out of it next time it happens. It is almost a statistical fact that if you ride on the street, you will eventually wreck.

I've been in dozens of bad situations on my bike, I could probably write a book on them, as I'm sure any rider with any amount of time on a bike could do. This is not my point.

Look at airforce pilots. They train, and train, and train to fly whatever particular vehicle the fly. They've gone through countless simulation hours, training classes, etc, and they still crash from time to time. They've been taught how to avoid getting shot down from enemy fire, yet it still happens. No amount of classroom training can prepare a person for realistic situations better then realistic situations.

Look at it like this. A 25 year old college graduate applies for a job in which he has extensivly trained for in school. He has no "real world" experience. Likewise, a 35 year old highschool graduate applies for the same job but has 15 years experience in the field, and an impeccable work record. Who gets the job?

Obviously a smart employer is going with the person with the real world training. Now of course this has nothing to do with motorcycles, unless your trying to be a racer or something.. But it helps to make my point.

Again, if you are new to riding, by all means take the course. Just don't come out of it thinking you know everything there is to know about riding a motorcycle. As a matter of fact, about 2 weeks ago a I told an 18 year old co-worker of mine who is getting ready to purchase a 600 sportbike to take a safety class at the local college because he has very limited experience on bikes. And that he better buy a used bike, because he'd be lucky to find an insurance company that would be willing to cover him.

I also suggested to him, as I do to any new rider to start small. I ride a drz400, and I can keep up with 600's all the way up if the curves are tight enough.

oh, and one more thing I'd like to comment on:

You also limit the situation by claming there is no room to 'break' (im sure you mean brake)

Hey, nobody is perfect, not even you:

Your right, the biggest danger is cars. The course teaches you how to deal with them effectively, amung other things.

I'm sure you meant among

 

[Spectre600]

If anyone is acting like a know it all, its you:

When you've rode through stuff like this;
there is little a class can teach you.

I did not sidestep your question

So the only option that your situation affords me, is to drive into the grass.

Are you trying to tell me, with your situation questions, air-force and job examples, that training is worthless?

No amount of classroom training can prepare a person for realistic situations better then realistic situations.

Its proven that simulator training for pilots helps them alot when faced with a real world situation. And its proven that 'simulating' a street environment in the MSF helps students when they are faced with the same. Training DOES help.

As far as your job example goes... I dont think its conclusive. What kind of a job are we talking about here? Its difficult to do a job requiring specific and complex skills. And if we are talking about a simple job, who is to say that the 15 year veteran has been doing the job correctly for 15 years? Maybe he has just been squeaking by enough not to get fired.

Like I said, when I took the course, there were 2-3 guys who had been riding for decades who learned things the very first day that opened their eyes.

I'm not saying you would, and I'm not saying I'll get out of it next time it happens. It is almost a statistical fact that if you ride on the street, you will eventually wreck.

I have, infact, been a crash. I broke my collarbone. I came around a blind corner and hit a gravel patch while leaned over. I agree, that at some point evryone will crash (most evryone).

However, I rode for 4 years before I crashed. I had around 25-30k miles on a streetbike. I owe alot of my success to the MSF. I didnt ride dirtbikes. I took the smart route and got training to ride on the street. It helped me and continues to help me to this day.

Now, even though Ive answered all your questions, mine is still unanswered.

Why wont you take the course? What do you have to lose?

I get the impression that the answer to those question is that you 'know it all' already.

 

[megashawn]

Dude, I just get tired of everytime I read a post from you, it ends with "Take the MSF course" as if it is required to ride.

I have answered your question, you just over looked it, allow me to quote from my previous response:

I DO NOT have a problem with MSF or any other motorcycle safety course. I may eventually take one if I get a true street bike, for no other reason then the fact it gives you an insurance discount.

Oops, replied too soon.

I'm sorry I ever mentioned anything, cause you seem to read what you want, and don't even pay attention to what I say. Training is not worthless, just, not going to prepare you for any and every situation. So MSF suggests to stay out of heavy traffic. Good advice, but not always possible.

I do not know eveything and have not once made such a claim. I have merely stated that you cannot learn everything, or anywhere close, sitting behind a desk, or riding around cones in a parking lot.

Again, some other points you seemed to miss:

Again, if you are new to riding, by all means take the course. Just don't come out of it thinking you know everything there is to know about riding a motorcycle. As a matter of fact, about 2 weeks ago a I told an 18 year old co-worker of mine who is getting ready to purchase a 600 sportbike to take a safety class at the local college because he has very limited experience on bikes. And that he better buy a used bike, because he'd be lucky to find an insurance company that would be willing to cover him.

As to your questions you say I haven't answered;

Why wont you take the course? What do you have to lose?

#1, answered in my previous post, you must have overlooked it
#2, Money and time.

I'm done.

 

[Spectre600]

In PA the msf course costed me $5. There is an advanced course that you ride your own bike in... Only requirement is you need to take the basic course first.

I dont mind any sacrifice of time or money to go towards making my ride safer.

I see where this thread is going, and its not nice, so lets end it. Lets agree to disagree.

We are both motorcyclists, we both deal with the same problems on 2 wheels. We both deal with the same jack-asses in cages. We are a part of a brotherhood. We both understand the magical power of the road, 2 wheels, the wind tugging against your shoulders, the ride.

Keep the sticky side down!