Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes/The Phantom Pain

[Samus]

It's known that there is an entire third chapter that was cut from the game.

Spoiler

Snake goes deep into Africa - an entirely new location - to track down Eli, the Third Child and Sahelanthropus. He finds that Eli has released the vocal chord parasites onto the population and has created a Lord of the Flies-style society with the child soldiers. Snake finds that Eli has since hit puberty, making him vulnerable to the patasites. He offers Eli one last chance to rejoin society, but abandons him when Eli rejects him, thus explaining Eli's hatred of Big Boss. The final scenes show the Third Child removing the parasites from Eli.

You can view what remains of it - it's estimated that only about 30-40% was completed befofe Konami pushed for a release - on YouTube if you search for "Episode 51".

It's also believed that Kojima had fifty unique missions in mind, each with four variations: normal, extreme, total stealth and subsistence.

Yeah I watched all of that on YouTube, the cut scenes give a pretty good idea how that would have gone down. I don't really feel we're missing too much on that specific part of the mission, it would have just been a sneak through and then take down type job I'd imagine but perhaps Kojima had more planned, sub-missions before the parts depicted in the cutscene.

Also in that 'Coming in Chapter 2' video at the end of chapter 1 I'm sure it previewed things that never happened in those last missions but maybe I'm wrong, I've not watched it again to check.

It did seem like a few random subsistence/extreme missions were left in just to round it to 50, pretty clear they planned to do more than that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Also in that 'Coming in Chapter 2' video at the end of chapter 1 I'm sure it previewed things that never happened in those last missions but maybe I'm wrong, I've not watched it again to check.

There was definitely stuff in the trailers that was cut. It's believed that the relationship between Kojima and Konami broke down because Konami lost patience with Kojima. The game was constantly delayed - I remember talk of it being an eighth-gen launch title - and reportedly massively over budget; Konami invested a lot in the FOX engine and that was no sign of a return. I've heard talk that Konami didn't expect to break even on the game.

 

[Samus]

There was definitely stuff in the trailers that was cut. It's believed that the relationship between Kojima and Konami broke down because Konami lost patience with Kojima. The game was constantly delayed - I remember talk of it being an eighth-gen launch title - and reportedly massively over budget; Konami invested a lot in the FOX engine and that was no sign of a return. I've heard talk that Konami didn't expect to break even on the game.

Yeah I mean it was pretty well documented it was a terrible relationship by the end. It's a shame because no matter how much silliness and bad-writing he threw in the MG/S games were always unique and interesting.

The only way I see there being another MGS game is if they just re-do the MG games because the core of the story is already there for them. I can't see them writing a whole new chapter, like another Solid Snake entry between 2 and 4.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The only way I see there being another MGS game is if they just re-do the MG games because the core of the story is already there for them. I can't see them writing a whole new chapter, like another Solid Snake entry between 2 and 4.

I think there's enough scope for an additional chapter - after all, we never found out what Big Boss got up to when he infiltrated Cipher.

 

[Peasantslayer]

Shining Lights Even In Death is the first episode that has really made me feel something, when I entered the room with the soldiers stood saluting I just stopped there trying to think of another way.

I'd rather there be 10-15 main missions on par with this and the Prologue than 50 episodes where most just seem like boring filler.

 

[Samus]

I'm at 97% now, just about 10/15 objectives to finish up including that troublesome mission 40.

How did you guys complete Subsistence C2W with the objectives as well? I came up with a good method I thought, obviously sneaking in but I only managed to get one Killer Bee missile and some D-Mines. Clearing out the base seemed unlikely so after doing the other objectives my first idea was to plant a DMine in front of the main comms equipment, make a noise and have a guard come look, trigger it to also blow it up. Flawless plan right up to the point it went off but only killed the guard, didn't affect the equipment. Next idea was less subtle, went across the road, fired the Killer Bee through the small window of the room and blew it up. Job done.

Really wish they had more of those, they really force you to think rather than just doing the obvious with a silenced pistol and C4.

Shining Lights Even In Death is the first episode that has really made me feel something, when I entered the room with the soldiers stood saluting I just stopped there trying to think of another way.

I'd rather there be 10-15 main missions on par with this and the Prologue than 50 episodes where most just seem like boring filler.

I think of the 40 or so unique missions I'd say 10 of them are top class and engrossing, tied in with the story around them. The rest are either ok or just feel like pointless clones of each other. There are only so many prisoners you can rescue before it gets tiresome.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think of the 40 or so unique missions I'd say 10 of them are top class and engrossing, tied in with the story around them. The rest are either ok or just feel like pointless clones of each other. There are only so many prisoners you can rescue before it gets tiresome.

I think that's true of just about any open-world game. Most of the time, missions amount to "go to this corner of the map (which you haven't been to before) and shoot everything". There's usually only a handful of quests that are interesting - like "Caida Libre" in Grand Theft Auto V, where you chase a plane across the map; everything else is just a linear shoot-out.

The best open-world games are the ones that combine interesting gameplay mechanics with the open-world format, like Rise of the Tomb Raider, which combines open-world exploration with platforming and puzzle-solving. Or Fallout 4, which is open-world with RPG mechanics. Or Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, which has open-world exploration and naval combat. And, of course, Batman: Arkham Knight, which is open-world and Batman. The Phantom Pain definitely does this because the game just gives you an objective marker and lets you figure out how to get there. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to play; the game never forces you to adopt a particular strategy to be successful - even when infiltrating the most linear of locations, like OKB Zero or Munoko ya Nikoia.

How did you guys complete Subsistence C2W with the objectives as well?

I don't think I got all of the objectives when I got the S rank; it took me a couple of runs through to get all of them. I have always found the Eastern Communications Hub to be a tricky location because it's on the inside of a corner and every approach is blind. I usually go up the back path to the overlook, work my way down to the central console, and then use the goat track to get out.

I'm at 97% now, just about 10/15 objectives to finish up including that troublesome mission 40.

I'm pretty sure you need all of the animals to get 100% as well. It's the last thing I did, and it's pretty damn frustrating because you don't get any assistance in finding them. You should check a play guide if you're stuck, because some animals - like the tsuchinoko - only live in a few square metres of an isolated corner of the map.

 

[Samus]

I think that's true of just about any open-world game

True, I definitely think they could've come up with a few more interesting concepts but who knows, maybe they did but again weren't finished so instead they padded it out with prisoner rescues.

Yeah I got all the animals using a guide, it was only the missions I was trying to do myself without guides/walkthroughs. 99% now, just mission 40 left. Hopefully get it cracked tonight, then I think I'm going to go back to PW and see if I can play it through now. IIRC though it wasn't just the style I didn't like, it was the iffy controls/UI coming over from PSP. We'll see though.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

99% now, just mission 40 left.

Mission 40 can be frustrating at the best of times, because if you die, you lose any chance at getting an S rank. The longer you play, the more likely it is that you'll die - but speed counts towards your ranking, so finishing the fight quickly is in your interests.

The only really difficult objective to get is the one for taking Quiet out without shooting her - a high-powered tranquiliser rifle should take care of all the others in a single play-through (and should net you the S ranking), but the other one requires you to call in gear drops.

 

[Samus]

Mission 40 can be frustrating at the best of times, because if you die, you lose any chance at getting an S rank. The longer you play, the more likely it is that you'll die - but speed counts towards your ranking, so finishing the fight quickly is in your interests.

The only really difficult objective to get is the one for taking Quiet out without shooting her - a high-powered tranquiliser rifle should take care of all the others in a single play-through (and should net you the S ranking), but the other one requires you to call in gear drops.

Yeah I've got the S, the Serval and 4/5 headshots managed that, just the 2 optional objectives. I'll give it a few goes then look for some hints.

Extracting all of the vehicles in the last mission was the biggest challenge so far, only mission I've used the skull armor suit for and even then it was a pain because the guys with shotguns and shields put you on the ground.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Use both mist and armor cartridge for last mission all vehicles extract task, the EMP mine also helped a lot disabling the tanks.

 

[Samus]

Use both mist and armor cartridge for last mission all vehicles extract task, the EMP mine also helped a lot disabling the tanks.

Yeah that was pretty much my method barring the mist. Except for the guys with shotguns the other issue is the tanks in the middle that you have to wait for them to stop moving and also how damn accurate they are with their shells, always a perfect hit on the spot you are.

Also that you can't run too far towards them as they spawn because "You're leaving the mission area".

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yeah that was pretty much my method barring the mist. Except for the guys with shotguns the other issue is the tanks in the middle that you have to wait for them to stop moving and also how damn accurate they are with their shells, always a perfect hit on the spot you are.

Also that you can't run too far towards them as they spawn because "You're leaving the mission area".

I memorized the order of the armored vehicles spawning I used the mist to cover the whole place in fog, helps a lot with the soldiers, but not the tanks. I also sprint non stop to avoid the shells. I had CGM25 launcher, a rifle with smoke grenade attachment for close encounter with soldiers. Be sure to fulton the armored personnel carrier quickly before they deployed more soldier I managed to have Quiet not getting attacked as well while doing this, needs several tries though, the last tanks were relentless shooting at me

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's probably the least-Metal Gear thing in the game.

 

[Samus]

Took a while but I got the Quiet one and 100%, fudged it with camo because after about 45 minutes of stun grenades and sleep grenades finally beating her it didn't unlock. How are either of those firearms? When I did it I just kept running up and kicking her. Cheap, but I'd had enough of trying to do something proper.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Took a while but I got the Quiet one and 100%, fudged it with camo because after about 45 minutes of stun grenades and sleep grenades finally beating her it didn't unlock. How are either of those firearms? When I did it I just kept running up and kicking her. Cheap, but I'd had enough of trying to do something proper.

The generally-accepted way of doing it - by which I mean doing it in such a way that you can get an S rank - is to tag her with the scope, then call in a supply drop to her position. Stick your head up at the last minute to keep her from jumping away, and it will land on her head, which counts as a hit.

 

[Samus]

The generally-accepted way of doing it - by which I mean doing it in such a way that you can get an S rank - is to tag her with the scope, then call in a supply drop to her position. Stick your head up at the last minute to keep her from jumping away, and it will land on her head, which counts as a hit.

I just don't get why stun and sleep grenades didn't count, unless it was a glitch. My method was basically sneaking up on her, throwing the stun to hit her and then immediately litter the area below with sleep that she'd jump down into. Took an age because she either moves before you get close enough, isn't in a place to reach with a throw or avoids the sleep with a big leap but eventually I did it, didn't count it. Was somewhat annoyed, so went to the cheaty method.

Anyway I've gone back to Peace Walker now, I can't remember how far I got last time I tried to play it before giving up but I just got the trophy for finishing the first chapter so obviously not very far! It is very similar to V in a lot of areas but the restrictions in movement/controls is taking some getting used to after V. I think I'll finally play it all the way through for the first time though.

 

[Liquid]

Because I haven't had a games console for over two years, I've not been able to play MGS GZ/V and I've stayed away from all spoilers. But interest got the better of me and I watched a very thorough 'movie' playthrough with cutscenes and... I'm disappointed.

Not with the game. It looks like a technical marvel with fabulous graphics and some stunning environments. It's just the story. I did not like it. So now I know the full story. I kind of wish I didn't.

There are but two tragedies in life; one is not to get your heart's desire, the other is to get it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's just the story. I did not like it

I liked it thematically, but it was a confusing mess in terms of its actual execution. So it was probably the most Hideo Kojima game of all Hideo Kojima's games.

 

[Samus]

The gameplay is definitely the main attraction of this game, not the narrative. There are some highlights here and there in the story but on the whole, pretty dull. The characters just aren't as involved like previous games, Ocelot is basically turned into an animal loving base manager. The few characters you do meet in the field never really interact with Snake.

There is one part where you're alone with another character for an extended amount of time and Snake says nothing, just listening.

 

[Peasantslayer]

I do like character's that only speak when something needs to be said but Kiefer Sutherland's voice acting is definitely underused in this game, were they paying him by the syllable?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Kiefer Sutherland's voice acting is definitely underused in this game

Kojima did it deliberately. He wanted to have a more silent protagonist to give the player more ownership over the story given that you can approach it from any direction.

There are some highlights here and there in the story but on the whole, pretty dull.

There are two main points to the story that I find really compelling. First, the characters have been fighting for the future of the world for so long that they've lost sight of what they're actually trying to do, and so they're now fighting for their place in history, which leads them to do horrible things to each other.

Secondly, I find the stuff about the relationship between language and culture to be fascinating.

 

[Samus]

Kojima did it deliberately. He wanted to have a more silent protagonist to give the player more ownership over the story given that you can approach it from any direction.

There are two main points to the story that I find really compelling. First, the characters have been fighting for the future of the world for so long that they've lost sight of what they're actually trying to do, and so they're now fighting for their place in history, which leads them to do horrible things to each other.

Secondly, I find the stuff about the relationship between language and culture to be fascinating.

The overall language arc is interesting and somewhat better than "Nanomachines", it's just the overall plan that required suspension of disbelief somewhat. I definitely enjoyed Quiet's part of the story but again you had to look past something, the Japanese pervy stuff in that case. I just felt the support cast were rather underused, spending most of the time at the base whereas in past MGS games they were continually part of the game in the field. Then you had Eli and The Third Child who kept turning up but again, never truly interacting with Snake as he had nothing to say most of time.

Mind you at least the twist at the end wasn't as bad as Peace Walker which I just finished for the first time. I mean I obviously knew what was roughly going to happen based on already playing GZ/PP but it was still hilariously bad, plot twist for the sake of plot twist.

 

[Jawehawk]

I rather liked the story in MGS4. I understood the motives of everyone involved, the nanomachines made sense and are at least somewhat plausible, and the boss fights were awesome. The last one in particular is absolutely brilliant.

If you require the player to listen to audio tapes to understand the story and the motives of the people involved, then you have failed as a writer and story teller. The showdown between Big Boss (Venom) and Skullface is so dumb, so poorly executed and so anti climactic, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It being necessary to have Skullface do a massive exposition dump on the player, while the Boss just sits there saying nothing, is a testament to how poorly told and paced the story is. It didn't feel natural what so ever, and was a horrible misuse of the main theme for the game. God that scene was awkward. Also.....

"WHOOOOOOOO!!!!"



And then there is of course the fact that they didn't finish the story arch involving the little brat whose name escapes me. I wanted to care about Quiet, but frankly, her entire character made no sense. Ocelot was wasted, and Kaz has the depth of a puddle.

Only part in the game that somewhat drew me in was when you had to go into the quarantine facility to clean up.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I wanted to care about Quiet, but frankly, her entire character made no sense [...] Kaz has the depth of a puddle.

Traditionally, it's very difficult to get audiences to care about silent characters whatever the medium. I actually think that Kojima did a really good job with her, though I think that he really undermined her with her dress since that was all everyone was talking about.

So much of the game is concerned with legacies. Ever since the events of Snake Eater, the characters have been fighting to decide the future of the world, especially in terms of ideology. Skip ahead twenty years to The Phantom Pain, and they're locked in a stalemate. Somewhere along the line, something changed; something went horribly wrong. They're no longer fighting for the future, they're fighting for a place in history, and that leads them to do horrible things. Kaz refuses to recognise his role in creating the conflicts engulfing the world, or the way his dealings with Cipher played a part in MSF's destruction; as a result, he lashes out at anyone who challenges him. Huey comes to view Diamond Dogs as being no better than the Soviets and XOF, and so murders Strangelove and feels completely justified in releasing the mutated strain of parasites. And for all his claims that a soldier should be free to pick his own battles, Big Boss forces Venom Snake to do his bidding against his will.

And that's why Quiet is so interesting. She is the only character who makes a choice to break free of the cycle of madness that swallows everyone else up. But in order to do that, she has to accept her fate: to die knowing that she will be forgotten. She will not make her mark on the world, or be remembered in the pages of history, but she will escape.

 

[Samus]

I liked Quiet's story, you just had to ignore the Japanese fan-service/perv stuff. It all made sense by the time we knew what her motives were, how she changed once she got on the base, her struggle/choices etc.

 

[Neomone]

I think a lot of the ideas behind the stories were very interesting and thought provoking, but it was all just so badly presented that it's really hard to get very involved. Most of the characters are cardboard cutouts, the plot and placing are largely poor and contrived, and it all feels very much like being force fed ideas instead of them being presented for your consideration.

Honestly, I think it's one of those things where you're better off reading a wiki summary of the plot line than actually playing through it. The gameplay is incredible, and the story ideas are great, but the actual execution of showing the story to the player is poor. It's like a great movie that's ruined by hammy actors and terrible dialogue.

 

[Samus]

I think the idea of the tapes was a good one, it's just the totally optional way they're presented that didn't work. I don't know why they didn't set it up so that the important ones auto-played at relevant moments rather than relying on us to remember to listen to them as they arrive. I ended up listening to most of them hours after the relevant part of the story had passed. If not autoplay then perhaps a prompt from Miller "Snake, I think you should hear this" with an option whether to do it or not.

When you were out in the field doing stuff you just don't think to stick a tape on. I didn't, anyway.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

the plot and placing are largely poor and contrived

It is very confused, bouncing around between the various plots for VCP, the metallic archaea and Sahelanthropus. The war between Cipher and the Patriots should have been more prominent in the story; Snake should have fought Sahelanthropus after rescuing Huey, only for it to be destroyed by Skull Face with the metallic archaea as a means of overthrowing Cipher. This would then open up the VCP plot line with the plot switching to Africa.

 

[Jawehawk]

Played through MGS4 again this weekend, and god dammit that last boss fight is without a doubt the most epic battle ever. The cinematic that leads to the fight, the music, the setting and the fighting choreography is just perfect. The only negative I can think of would be that the control are a bit awkward, but who the hell cares when you are trying to comprehend the epicness displayed in front of you. I can't thin of any movie or game franchise that has managed to deliver such a fitting finale to an epic franchise. I always get goosebumps when Snake yells "LIQUIIIIEEEDDD!!!"

It's a shame that MGS V doesn't have anything even remotely as epic and emotional as that fight. The only good boss fight in V is the battle with Quiet, as that is basically just a better version of the battle versus The End from MGS 3. Of course, playing through MGS4, also made me realise just how much better the gameplay in V is. One is played for the story, characters and music, while the other is played for the gameplay.