Mid-engine cars unrealistic?

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Since prologue I've noticed that the mid-engine cars have way too much liftoff oversteer. I am not even close to a car expert but if a car behaved the way the Lotus 111R does in the Top Gear Challenge then it would not be considered street legal.

The Ferrari 512BB is awesome but braking into a corner is often a nightmare.

Sometimes I enjoy the challenge of driving these cars but I think something is very wrong with them. I know you can fix much of this with tuning but by default these cars shouldn't behave so violently with weight shifts.

The feel of driving is great in this game, better than any game I've tried. It's just those damn mid-engine cars.
 
If anything there isn't nearly enough lift oversteer with other vehicles, particularly FR cars. Even FF cars can have lift oversteer if they are relatively neutral handling, and the lift is enough to shift the weight forward.

The problem with the Lotus is that it has the equivalent of all-season tires in that particular challenge. However, in real life they are not easy to control at the limit - I've seen many drivers show up with one at the track, and struggle to beat cars that have similar power, but weigh 400kg more.

The Lotus and 512 are particularly twitchy, and braking must be done in a straight line only. Very little and very smooth trail braking can be used in a certain corners, but for the most part it will upset the car.
 
I thought the Lotus was fun actually. Just need to be careful with it. However, its handling is apparently due to tires.

What did surprise me was my first drive in the McLaren MP4. I decided to break it out because my ACR was a bit too fast for this other guy's Skyline. We were at Daytona Road with Sports Hards. On the oval section, it was downright scary. I nearly spun it 3 out of the 7 laps. And on the last lap, I lost it completely. It was almost as if the rear end had lift.

It wasn't undrivable, but it was more challenging than I expected it to be. I didn't drive enough to determine if it was realistic or not (and I was using a controller anyway), but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the car is more stable in reality.
 
Why not?

How many people that drive these cars on the street IRL put them under such extreme conditions and situations as they are asked in this game.

And guess what the people that do race these cars and stress these cars IRL do before they take it to the track.....They tune them
 
Nuck81
And guess what the people that do race these cars and stress these cars IRL do before they take it to the track.....They tune them
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That's not a given. In fact, I'm sure that a large portion of these cars hit track days stock. They're designed for track use out of the box in some cases, and they're definately not tuned in magazine reviews.
 
Exorcet
That's not a given. In fact, I'm sure that a large portion of these cars hit track days stock. They're designed for track use out of the box in some cases, and they're definately not tuned in magazine reviews.
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For "public" days at the track sure. But when huge amounts of money and rep are on the line, the cars are worked over guaranteed.
 
I am sure that if they are taking it to the track they do not rush out and by generic economy hard tires with no traction and toss them on either like the lotus in the top gear challenge.

I own a lotus and rmd it and bumped up the hp etc it is a decent car to drive when you got good tires on it period and rmd it is is pretty easy to drive tho it does take a different approach than my MR cars i normally drive.
 
OP take an MR2 to a trackday and push it to its limits in a corner. Then come and report on your feelings about MR cars and lift off oversteer. If you make it back.

GT5 actually does weight transfer very well and IMO has modeled the handling characteristics for MR cars very well.

The Top Gear Elise test is an aberration because the car has been set up with the worst tyres possible on purpose. If you took an Elise to a track and put cheap, 165 road tyres on it, it would handle like a death trap.
 
I wouldn't say unrealistic, even MR cars in real life tend to have their rear break loose, more so than FR cars.

When the engine sits more towards the rear, you're having more weight swing around in the back. If you tried driving the RR layout cars, RUF etc.. you will also notice they tend to fishtail much more than FR cars.

Anyhow.. here's an NSX coming into a corner too hot, ends up crashing of snap oversteer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88QT5JD46NE
 
You have to remember that the majority of people playing the game use the gas/brakes as an on/off switch. In real life you dont floor it every second or slam on the brakes for every turn. If your doing that in the game, then no **** its gonna drive like crap.
 
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That's exactly what makes them realistic (as opposed to forza for instance, in which RWD cars and midships have been flattened so badly that not only they are easier to drive than real ones, but also their natural advantages have been obliterated, making them completely uncompetitive).

real midships behave exactly like that in real life.

The lotus in the top gear challenge uses the worst possible tires in the game in order to teach you to be delicate at the throttle and brake (all the top gear challenges are big "advanced driving tutorials"), basically the equivalent of the stock tires of a ford focus.

The real lotus comes with sport tires stock. Take the same lotus for a spin with sport tires and you'll see it'll be much more easy to control.

On top of that most high power midships in real life come with some strong traction control, that get seldom stripped only when they're race prepped.

In the game people obstinately want to drive "full realism" with no aids on (me too, mind you), which normally means a car much harder to handle than it's real street version, that has those aids stock.
 
If anything, GT isn't quite punishing enough for lift off oversteer.

It does a pretty great job of weight transfer and what not though. Its rewarding to drive such cars well. Just as it should be.👍
 
One of my posts in another thread ("GT and the understeer tradition") mirrors some of the responses here:
Wolfe
I've read accounts by speed-happy automotive enthusiasts who complain about games that model lift-off oversteer, crying that they "don't drive like the real thing," when they're failing to consider that they never punish their real-world "baby" the way they drive in a videogame. How many people zoom around at the top of the rev range, treating the throttle almost like an on-off switch (videogame-style) while casually enjoying a speedy drive on some country roads?

I've had many a discussion with Scaff, who is a professional driver, and as I recall he mentioned that using engine braking as a means to slow the car (rather than simply to keep the transmission in the proper gear and engine in the right RPM range) is a misconception of its purpose and a sign of poor driving. It remains a useful tool to initiate oversteer (as in drifting), or to help rotate the car into the corner, but the point here is that in any decent simulator it should pose a risk to the driver, with suitable punishment (loss of control).
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The infamous tire issue with the Top Gear Lotus challenge is one thing, but I imagine if you drove the Lotus at a "street-legal" pace (aka low-RPM, shifting early, following typical speed limits), you'd find it more manageable.
 
Seriously?

Complaining about how violent a mid engine car is?

First of all do you know what the difference of a mid engine is to a rear engine

Like a Porsche 911 it's rear engine :) very easy to drive

Not like the porsche carerra GT ^_^ it's mid engine

A mid engine has it's engine around infront or on the rear suspension.

It's really going to be a handful no matter how you drive it.
 
Enzo309
Seriously?

Complaining about how violent a mid engine car is?

First of all do you know what the difference of a mid engine is to a rear engine

Like a Porsche 911 it's rear engine :) very easy to drive

Not like the porsche carerra GT ^_^ it's mid engine

A mid engine has it's engine around infront or on the rear suspension.

It's really going to be a handful no matter how you drive it.
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Strange comment... If anything, the effect is exaggerated in a 911 because the weight is further rearward of the COG. This is most obvious in older 911's, particularly the GT2 which was a real handful.

I'm not sure about the whole lift off oversteer thing, I don't have a wheel so the effect is obviously exaggerated.

Exaggerated or not though, it is nice to see that the physics model clearly distinguishes between the handling characteristics of different platforms. Previously all cars felt very much the same
 
Well, the motor's near the back of the car. When you lift off the throttle or brake, the rear gets light while the grip to the front increases. If you're not careful in the corners -- and even if you are -- your car will want to swap ends. You have to be pretty quick to catch it before things get real nasty real fast.

If the car is rear-engined like the Rufs, you get this pendulum effect. It's pretty awesome when you're not expecting it. GT5 captured the early large turbo 911 platform's reputed tendency to exhibit severe power-on over and understeer mixed with severe power-off over and understeer.

Long story short: Dude, stop braking into corners with a mid-engine rear-wheel drive car. Brake before.
 
CarreraGT
Strange comment... If anything, the effect is exaggerated in a 911 because the weight is further rearward of the COG. This is most obvious in older 911's, particularly the GT2 which was a real handful.

I'm not sure about the whole lift off oversteer thing, I don't have a wheel so the effect is obviously exaggerated.

Exaggerated or not though, it is nice to see that the physics model clearly distinguishes between the handling characteristics of different platforms. Previously all cars felt very much the same
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Gt2 isn't as hard as the carrera GT :)

Still the carrera gt is faster

Don't describe a car's feel by it's statistics on power or weight or even engine positioning :)

There are tons of other aspects which makes a car.

If your not using steering wheel then theres no simulation for you.

If your using a steering wheel and you are new to 500+ hp

Seriously don't complain :)

You will adapt over time although this thread is pretty pointless

Because they will never take the real driving simulator off it's name because of an amateur.

You don't have to have the talent ya just have to adapt and be more experienced overtime just like F1 2009 world champion jenson button
 
Sum1s2pid
....
Long story short: Dude, stop braking into corners with a mid-engine rear-wheel drive car. Brake before.
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Actually, with a MR you have the choice of braking mid corner because of the COG. You can trail brake with MR cars because of their relative agility opposed to FR cars. But as you said it's still better to slow down first before a corner, then proceed into the corner you will have to give it some gas in order to keep the rear planted. Remember torque monsters like the Ford GT will make you pay dearly when you take your foot off the gas mid corner. Throttle control is key to taming the MR cars, not all are hard to control though.
 
Sum1s2pid
Well, the motor's near the back of the car. When you lift off the throttle or brake, the rear gets light while the grip to the front increases. If you're not careful in the corners -- and even if you are -- your car will want to swap ends. You have to be pretty quick to catch it before things get real nasty real fast.

If the car is rear-engined like the Rufs, you get this pendulum effect. It's pretty awesome when you're not expecting it. GT5 captured the early large turbo 911 platform's reputed tendency to exhibit severe power-on over and understeer mixed with severe power-off over and understeer.

Long story short: Dude, stop braking into corners with a mid-engine rear-wheel drive car. Brake before.
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LOL i like this reply!
 
Enzo309
Gt2 isn't as hard as the carrera GT :)

Still the carrera gt is faster

Don't describe a car's feel by it's statistics on power or weight or even engine positioning :)

There are tons of other aspects which makes a car.

If your not using steering wheel then theres no simulation for you.

If your using a steering wheel and you are new to 500+ hp

Seriously don't complain :)

You will adapt over time although this thread is pretty pointless

Because they will never take the real driving simulator off it's name because of an amateur.

You don't have to have the talent ya just have to adapt and be more experienced overtime just like F1 2009 world champion jenson button
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Not sure that any of those points really addressed my post... Did you mean to quote someone else?
 
I'd just like to add that the Lotus behaved pretty much the same way in GT4, from what I remember.

But a car that has been much improved from GT4 is the Clio V6 (the Premium version at least). What a joy!
 
SavageEvil
Actually, with a MR you have the choice of braking mid corner because of the COG. You can trail brake with MR cars because of their relative agility opposed to FR cars. But as you said it's still better to slow down first before a corner, then proceed into the corner you will have to give it some gas in order to keep the rear planted. Remember torque monsters like the Ford GT will make you pay dearly when you take your foot off the gas mid corner. Throttle control is key to taming the MR cars, not all are hard to control though.
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Yeah, if I'm not careful on corner entries, I tend to unsettle an MR with, uh... dramatically catastrophic results. This is with all assists off. It's getting better. Slowly.

:lol:
 
MowTin
Since prologue I've noticed that the mid-engine cars have way too much liftoff oversteer. I am not even close to a car expert but if a car behaved the way the Lotus 111R does in the Top Gear Challenge then it would not be considered street legal.
....
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Exactly my thoughts.

Imo the car feels like it was driven on ice :D
 
Haven't driven the Lotus yet but so far the Mk3 MR2 feels fairly real to life. There's more interesting info in the thread Wolfe talked about.
 
Heka Gigantes
Exactly my thoughts.

Imo the car feels like it was driven on ice :D
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However no-one in their right minds would put the tyres it has for the Top Gear challenge on an Elise.

Pop some better tyres on one and give it a go.


Scaff
 
Heka Gigantes
Exactly my thoughts.

Imo the car feels like it was driven on ice :D
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As someone else explained me, the Lotus at the Top Gear Challenge has set up comfort tires, but no sports tires as it should be. So it feels way too slippy while braking or accelerating.

I tested some of the JGT-cars like the Castrol Supra, the GT-R and even the NSX by Raybrig.

And I can really feel the difference between the GT-R and the NSX. The NSX with its mid-engine feels a lot more agile and better to turn in, but also a bit more tricky while braking too hard and a bit more oversteering.
 

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