Mid range turbo giver more power and PP than High range
- Thread starter xSNAKEx
- 48 comments
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- 1,398
- Windsor, Ont
- GamingWithNish
Could be the turbo that Nismo has for the top end is better than the stage 3 turbo. While adding a stage 2 may be complementing the high range with a better mid range turbo. What I'm saying is maybe the original has good mid range turbo + great high range turbo and GT may just use turbo's that are much better than the mid range.
I could be way off the mark as well
.
I could be way off the mark as well
.
- 373
- Porto
- Divinusable
I'm not an expert but I think it's something like this:
The values used for HP when referring to a car are the maximum achieved. You know nothing about the power produced at different rpm than the maximum with just that data.
Look at the torque/power curves for your answer. With this info, you not only have the information of the max hp/torque, but also the power/torque available at all rpm.
Take into consideration that power=torque*rpm (roughly, maybe you'll need to multiply by a constant due to the units used.).
So look at the torque curve, when applying a high rpm turbo and the medium one. You'll see that you have more max torque available at an earlier stage with the medium (and thats make sense hence the mid-range) and you'll increase the torque avaliable at higher rpm with the high one. You'll then have two effects to calculate hp in each option:
Mid range - More peak torque, but at lower rpm
High range - Less peak torque, but at higher rpm
Power=torque*rpm
In the car of your video it seems that the effect of having more torque with the mid-range is stronger than having more torque at higher rpm intervals, thus the values for max power.
Edit: Wrote this in a hurry so if it isn't clear let me know.
Edit2: Remember to add this. You should look at the power curve and observe which intervals are better to use your power band in each turbo. Then according to the track, adjust the gearbox ratios and choose the appropriate turbo. This will also help you with when to shift gear.
The values used for HP when referring to a car are the maximum achieved. You know nothing about the power produced at different rpm than the maximum with just that data.
Look at the torque/power curves for your answer. With this info, you not only have the information of the max hp/torque, but also the power/torque available at all rpm.
Take into consideration that power=torque*rpm (roughly, maybe you'll need to multiply by a constant due to the units used.).
So look at the torque curve, when applying a high rpm turbo and the medium one. You'll see that you have more max torque available at an earlier stage with the medium (and thats make sense hence the mid-range) and you'll increase the torque avaliable at higher rpm with the high one. You'll then have two effects to calculate hp in each option:
Mid range - More peak torque, but at lower rpm
High range - Less peak torque, but at higher rpm
Power=torque*rpm
In the car of your video it seems that the effect of having more torque with the mid-range is stronger than having more torque at higher rpm intervals, thus the values for max power.
Edit: Wrote this in a hurry so if it isn't clear let me know.
Edit2: Remember to add this. You should look at the power curve and observe which intervals are better to use your power band in each turbo. Then according to the track, adjust the gearbox ratios and choose the appropriate turbo. This will also help you with when to shift gear.
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- 3,070
- Norway
It's a combination of the stock motor being properly modelled, and the tuning in Gran Turismo being flawed.
All power parts in Gran Turismo, except turbo/superchargers, function as torque multipliers across the rev range.
That means that a car like the 400R will keep its curve profiles even when fully built with stage 3 engine, exhaust, intake, re-map etc etc.
When you then stick a high rpm turbo on it, most of the power gain will come after the engine has started to choke.
That means you improve the overall performance compared to the stock turbos, but peak power gain is relatively moderate.
The mid rpm turbo will boost power in the mid range where the engine peaks, leading to this result.
If the engine tuning were to improve to a more realistic model, this problem would be resolved.
All power parts in Gran Turismo, except turbo/superchargers, function as torque multipliers across the rev range.
That means that a car like the 400R will keep its curve profiles even when fully built with stage 3 engine, exhaust, intake, re-map etc etc.
When you then stick a high rpm turbo on it, most of the power gain will come after the engine has started to choke.
That means you improve the overall performance compared to the stock turbos, but peak power gain is relatively moderate.
The mid rpm turbo will boost power in the mid range where the engine peaks, leading to this result.
If the engine tuning were to improve to a more realistic model, this problem would be resolved.
mcsqueegy
Premium
- 1,968
- Antarctica
Midrange turbos generally give higher torque figures than the high range ones. Compact tracks would probably benefit more with the increased torque at the cost of a few bhp.Does it work like that in GT6 or is it always better to go Stage 3?
I don't really see the point in Stage 1 and 2 turbos in GranTurismo, we aren't using the cars as daily runabouts we are racing so we are only ever in the high rev range.
- 2,913
- UK
- phil_75
It's a combination of the stock motor being properly modelled, and the tuning in Gran Turismo being flawed.
All power parts in Gran Turismo, except turbo/superchargers, function as torque multipliers across the rev range.
That means that a car like the 400R will keep its curve profiles even when fully built with stage 3 engine, exhaust, intake, re-map etc etc.
When you then stick a high rpm turbo on it, most of the power gain will come after the engine has started to choke.
That means you improve the overall performance compared to the stock turbos, but peak power gain is relatively moderate.
The mid rpm turbo will boost power in the mid range where the engine peaks, leading to this result.
If the engine tuning were to improve to a more realistic model, this problem would be resolved.
So are you saying a stage 2 turbo will be faster on a track than a stage 3 that is power limited to the stage 2 level?
Well i am not mixing, I just want Gran Turismo be like real life (reality, real driving simulator, the simulation of reality, etc). Ofcourse any game can behave like it's developers want with magic and flying dragons and Stage1 turbo producing more HP than Stage3, etc, etc. But I hope (and want ) GT6 to be the same as real life so it must have the same input and the same output as in real life.
And IMO you have limited understanding how engine works.
So what now? Well we can compare facts and see what comes out from this.
Stage3 turbo is larger and it creates higher pressure which in turn allows to add more fuel/air mixture into the engine and thus achieve more HP.
Now it's your turn.
The power number shown in Tuning menu is a PEAK power number. Not low-range, not mid-range. That's a PEAK (Max) power at the top of rpm range. So when selecting stage3 turbo, it shows what this turbo achieves when it already 'kicked in' and squeezed everything out of itself.
Those power numbers aren't from mid-range (where T2 creates more HP than T3), but from the top-end range.
- 3,070
- Norway
This I agree 100% with.
If the engine is designed for it, yes. If an engine has very poor airflow in the high rpm range, like the car in question, a high rpm turbo won't be very effective.
If we had realistic engine tuning (if stage 3 engine tuning, racing exhaust, remapped ECU etc etc, actually changed the characteristics of the engine) we would have a better reflection of reality.
ATM we have torque multiplier for all parts. Turbo/superchargers boost torque in a specific range, all other parts boost torque across the rev range.
- 3,070
- Norway
Gearing, track layout, traction etc etc play a major role here.
I would imagine that in most cases a limited high rpm turbo would be faster.
Generally you want to rev the engine all the way to cut-off.
Higher rpm means lighter gearing at the same speed, mutiplying wheel horsepower a little bit.
The engine is designed for it and it has enough airflow. It's a Stage3 'kit' which means it adds bigger turbo and also higher air-flow filter and also higher capacity fuel pump and all other necessary things to create more power. So this is not an issue.
And that's what PD should strive for. To be as close to reality as possible. And the first thing they should do is fix the 'bug' where T3 outputs less (peak) power than T2.
Imho it doesn't matter how the internal code engine is created, what kind of mathematical multipliers and functions they use. What matters is the final results that we get on our screen. And this result must correspond to reality. In the real life high-tuned engines with big turbos produce more power, not less.
- 392
- NL
- Morphisorius
Even when the mid rpm turbo gives more peak power, it does not mean it is the better choice.
An example of this is the Daihatsu Mira (Yes, THAT). On this car the mid RPM turbo yields more power and a lot more peak torque, but at several thousand RPM lower, and with a very different torque curve. Upon testing the acceleration characteristics, the high RPM turbo performed significantly better, even with the lower power.
Rubbish. Just look at the graphic provided in the settings screen. It clearly uses the peak power reached by the engine, regardless of where in the RPM range that is.
An example of this is the Daihatsu Mira (Yes, THAT). On this car the mid RPM turbo yields more power and a lot more peak torque, but at several thousand RPM lower, and with a very different torque curve. Upon testing the acceleration characteristics, the high RPM turbo performed significantly better, even with the lower power.
Rubbish. Just look at the graphic provided in the settings screen. It clearly uses the peak power reached by the engine, regardless of where in the RPM range that is.
- 3,070
- Norway
I'm talking about intake manifold/head/valve/exhaust manifold-design, and there is also the issue of internal friction.
Some engines "choke" long before the rev limit, in GT and IRL.
IRL you can fix this, in GT you can't.
The rpm range that the different turbos boost power is set according to the total rev range, disregarding the power band (in GT).
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It doesn't matter. This is a complete working kit which makes all necessary modifications to the engine in order to work properly. This is Gran Turismo and not Car Tuning Sim. It's the same with every modification in GT series - you select position and 'everything is done for you'. Same with suspension tuning, brake-kits, etc.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I don't think PD programming is quite as complicated as some of you seem to think. They have a power curve. Area under the two power curves is part of the PP calculation. The more area you create the more PP you get. High RPM turbo enhances the high rpm's. If it's a power curve that peaks near the redline as most do, then you'll get more peak power there. If it's a power curve that peaks much earlier and is falling near the redline then adding a high rpm turbo is trying to enhance a falling curve, not a rising one, and the effect is far less dramatic in terms of peak power, but it may have a larger effect on PP.
Vice versa with the mid range turbo. Trying to enhance a high peaked curve with a mid-range turbo will have a different result than enhancing a mid peaked curve with a mid range turbo. In the former case you are going against what the engine is designed to do, and in the latter case you are working with the engine's basic design to enhance what is already enhanced, the middle of the power curve. What you do, what works best for you, depends on your gearing, PP/HP limitations etc. I find that cars with high peak power curves tend to do the best under the PP system because they tend to have a smaller area under the curve relative to those cars that peak in power lower down the curve and tend to have a flatter power profile. I also find that peak HP higher in the rpm range beats mid range torque on the track most of the time.
Vice versa with the mid range turbo. Trying to enhance a high peaked curve with a mid-range turbo will have a different result than enhancing a mid peaked curve with a mid range turbo. In the former case you are going against what the engine is designed to do, and in the latter case you are working with the engine's basic design to enhance what is already enhanced, the middle of the power curve. What you do, what works best for you, depends on your gearing, PP/HP limitations etc. I find that cars with high peak power curves tend to do the best under the PP system because they tend to have a smaller area under the curve relative to those cars that peak in power lower down the curve and tend to have a flatter power profile. I also find that peak HP higher in the rpm range beats mid range torque on the track most of the time.
You don't get what I want to say. The numeric numbers represent the peak power not the low-range or mid-range power. There won't be any more power increase after this peak power number. So it's at the end of active rpm range.
The fact that the rpm range is over-extended (which is imho unnecessary) fools you into thinking that the 'peak' is from the mid range. It's not.
