Mindblown! A racing game that DOESN'T teach you how to properly race.

[93integraRS]

If not the most important and obvious thing in a driving game. It's omission from gt7 context is downright pathetic.

Understanding and teaching clean, safe, and drivable lines should of been implemented in gameplay. Not some beyond the apex article lol.

Knowing when to pass, where to pass, and how to give space.


Which leads me to my next major COMPLAINT

Uncompetitive AI.
Seriously how stupid are the people at polyphony digital?easy,medium,hard difficulty like lol wtf. Because when I go to the real track that's how it is. Lapping guys on easy/normal setting. Getting beat by a lap by guys on hard difficulty.?! Lmao

That's not how real racing works. You incrementally get faster by learning the line from the faster guy in front of you. It maybe by .2 seconds but it's progressing. By the end of 15 laps you've learned a new line are probably a second or 2 faster.

You can't do that In gt7. The ai should have been set like this.
Run qualifying for track.
Now enter race midpack with each lead car set to a pace. .1 seconds faster than you're qualifying time.

Simple, easy and always a fun challenge. As opposed to this weird sadistic circuit experience bologna, or stupid tomahawk grind.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Seriously how stupid are the people at polyphony digital?

This is where I stopped reading.

 

[mynameis66]

I thought i was reading an old post until i saw the date.😄

 

[Stakado]

You are very right.
The game teaches you to drive, it teaches you to control cars, it teaches you to be fast in a time trial, but not how to compete. It doesn't teach you when or how to overtake. no, it teaches you to run as fast as you can as if the other cars didn't exist because the leader is 40 seconds ahead of you and you only have 5 laps to catch up with him, so you have to be 8 seconds per lap faster than him . it does not make any sense

 

[Batschisane52]

If not the most important and obvious thing in a driving game. It's omission from gt7 context is downright pathetic.

Understanding and teaching clean, safe, and drivable lines should of been implemented in gameplay. Not some beyond the apex article lol.

Knowing when to pass, where to pass, and how to give space.


Which leads me to my next major COMPLAINT

Uncompetitive AI.
Seriously how stupid are the people at polyphony digital?easy,medium,hard difficulty like lol wtf. Because when I go to the real track that's how it is. Lapping guys on easy/normal setting. Getting beat by a lap by guys on hard difficulty.?! Lmao

That's not how real racing works. You incrementally get faster by learning the line from the faster guy in front of you. It maybe by .2 seconds but it's progressing. By the end of 15 laps you've learned a new line are probably a second or 2 faster.

You can't do that In gt7. The ai should have been set like this.
Run qualifying for track.
Now enter race midpack with each lead car set to a pace. .1 seconds faster than you're qualifying time.

Simple, easy and always a fun challenge. As opposed to this weird sadistic circuit experience bologna, or stupid tomahawk grind.

Not sure if you are serious or if you are just trolling...

There are tools in GT7 that show you the clean racing line, there are tools that show you the breaking zones and there is the cucuit experience where you can learn every track step by step...what more do you need ?

 

[FPV MIC]

If not the most important and obvious thing in a driving game. It's omission from gt7 context is downright pathetic.

Understanding and teaching clean, safe, and drivable lines should of been implemented in gameplay. Not some beyond the apex article lol.

Knowing when to pass, where to pass, and how to give space.


Which leads me to my next major COMPLAINT

Uncompetitive AI.
Seriously how stupid are the people at polyphony digital?easy,medium,hard difficulty like lol wtf. Because when I go to the real track that's how it is. Lapping guys on easy/normal setting. Getting beat by a lap by guys on hard difficulty.?! Lmao

That's not how real racing works. You incrementally get faster by learning the line from the faster guy in front of you. It maybe by .2 seconds but it's progressing. By the end of 15 laps you've learned a new line are probably a second or 2 faster.

You can't do that In gt7. The ai should have been set like this.
Run qualifying for track.
Now enter race midpack with each lead car set to a pace. .1 seconds faster than you're qualifying time.

Simple, easy and always a fun challenge. As opposed to this weird sadistic circuit experience bologna, or stupid tomahawk grind.

The part I've highlighted intrigues me. Basically what you are asking for is to chase one car, the one that's just slightly quicker than you can qualify at, but gives you the illusion of a race. Running Circuit Experience with your own ghost set a few tenths up the road will give you a similar illusion wouldn't it? Once you can catch the actual Circuit Experience demo time you can always push that up the road a bit too.

If you really want the real racing learning experience try online racing (in any racing game, not just this one). It's as close as you can get without the costs and injuries incurred from accidents (edit: and a few other things like G forces and fear).

 

[eran0004]

The ai should have been set like this.
Run qualifying for track.
Now enter race midpack with each lead car set to a pace. .1 seconds faster than you're qualifying time.

Because that’s how real racing works? 🤔

 

[The_It_Jojo]

Getting beat by a lap by guys on hard difficulty.?!

You guys are getting beaten by the ai?

 

[Magog]

You guys are getting beaten by the ai?

He's saying that AI is uncompetitive then says they beat him by a lap. Which is it?

 

[The_It_Jojo]

He's saying that AI is uncompetitive then says they beat him by a lap. Which is it?

Imo he doesn't have enough pp.

😏

You need to add more power.

 

[Famine]

He's saying that AI is uncompetitive then says they beat him by a lap. Which is it?

I'd be hopelessly uncompetitive against Rafael Nadal, but if I started 6-0, 6-0, 5-0 up, got a 40-0 advantage in each game, and started each new set 5-0 up, I'd stand a good chance of winning the occasional match against him...

 

[Goshin2568]

I'd be hopelessly uncompetitive against Rafael Nadal, but if I started 6-0, 6-0, 5-0 up, got a 40-0 advantage in each game, and started each new set 5-0 up, I'd stand a good chance of winning the occasional match against him...

But that's kind of the point right? If you and Nadal had to play against each other regularly I'm sure it would be much more fun for both of you for you to start with an advantage rather than for him to just utterly destroy you each match. That's kind of the idea behind a handicap.


Of course, in GT it'd be nice if we just had skilled AI, but with the AI that we currently have I'd much rather play chase the rabbit and have some semblance of a challenge rather than qualifying + standing start which would be a pole -> lead every lap -> win in every single player race for a large percentage of players.

 

[Famine]

If you and Nadal had to play against each other regularly I'm sure it would be much more fun for both of you for you to start with an advantage rather than for him to just utterly destroy you each match.

And thus it's possible, simultaneously, for me to be uncompetitive but beat him by two sets - while @Magog thinks the concepts of AI being uncompetitive but also able to beat you by a lap (when it starts races with a full tank of fuel and fresh tyres 45 seconds up the road) are mutually exclusive.

 

[Goshin2568]

And thus it's possible, simultaneously, for me to be uncompetitive but beat him by two sets - while @Magog thinks the concepts of AI being uncompetitive but also able to beat you by a lap (when it starts races with a full tank of fuel and fresh tyres 45 seconds up the road) are mutually exclusive.

Yeah sorry I should have clarified. I understood the point you were making and the question you were answering, I was just playing off your comment to respond to the thread's original post

 

[NickGuy]

GT teaches the player about driving more than any other racing game and we still get threads like this lol

 

[Magog]

And thus it's possible, simultaneously, for me to be uncompetitive but beat him by two sets - while @Magog thinks the concepts of AI being uncompetitive but also able to beat you by a lap (when it starts races with a full tank of fuel and fresh tyres 45 seconds up the road) are mutually exclusive.

If the AI is beating you by a lap you don't get to complain about them being uncompetitive. Even if they have a head start you should be able to catch up to at least 4th place if you have any skill. You also know as well as I do that in the hardest races the AI starts only 3-4 seconds ahead of you. (Looking at you Gr3 spicy races)

 

[Famine]

If the AI is beating you by a lap you don't get to complain about them being uncompetitive.

Sure, let's all just state things after it's been explained why the statement is clearly untrue.

You also know as well as I do that in the hardest races the AI starts only 3-4 seconds ahead of you.

Demonstrably garbage, yet again. What are you gaining out of just making rubbish up like this? Why do you keep doing it so many times about so many things in so many threads?

In the "endurance races" (endurance missions) you were so recently floating as "8 new races", the gap can be as much as 25 seconds. In some of the actual races, such as those in the Cafe, it can be 35 seconds; there's a Porsche race at Spa where the lead AI is cresting Raidillon while you're at the start line. So as far as I "know as well as" you... no:

Sure, in some Gr.3 races (and not exactly hard ones, given the next part of this sentence), the AI can start three seconds ahead of you, but pretending like that's in any way a counter to the fact that inept AI starting with a massive advantage (doubled because they've experienced no tyre wear or fuel use to gain the advantage) can still outcompete a capable human is bewilderingly numb.

In F1 a driver considered too dangerously slow to even be on the grid would lose 4.2 seconds per minute to the front runner. That's equivalent to an AI that's 25 seconds up the road in a five-minute race still losing to the human... and in some races that's exactly the AI we have, even racing normally within PP limits and not glitching a Tomahawk. They will lose a 25 second lead to you in five minutes, and that's considered too dangerous to be on the same grid in real motorsport; that's not "uncompetitive", but "dangerous". Oh, and that's the fastest AI - the rest lose more time than that once you've scrapped through their on-corner parking ineptitude.

Merely "uncompetitive" AI is considerably faster than that - it could be almost as good as a second a minute slower, taking only 25 minutes to lose the 25 second lead...

... and that's exactly why they start so bloody far ahead.


The AI is uncompetitive. It can also lap you (due to being given a ton of advantages, like ignoring rain and ramming you off, like in the Tsukuba endurance "race" [mission]). These are not the contrary points you seem to think they are.

 

[Silver Arrows]

GT teaches the player about driving more than any other racing game and we still get threads like this lol

This feels like a stretch when 95% of people playing the game breeze past the descriptors of the license tests teaching them about various concepts of circuit driving, and who's teaching of multiplayer racing is a three minute video that boils down to 'don't ram into people, mmmkay'

The AI is uncompetitive. It can also lap you (due to being given a ton of advantages, like ignoring rain and ramming you off, like in the Tsukuba endurance "race" [mission]). These are not the contrary points you seem to think they are.

This is the biggest thing to me. It's clear that Polyphony knows that the AI is utter trash. But the way they have gone to fixing it is so mind-bogglingly stupid that it makes you wonder why they even bothered.

98% of the menu races are more or less set in difficulty and it's the same thing that you've come to expect when it comes to difficulty in GT games. The only real 'difficulty' comes in pre-baked advantages, like you said. Ignoring weather conditions, ramming you, and being so far ahead that sometimes, even with a car built right up to the limits of the event, you might not have enough to catch the leader 30 seconds out in front. The ability to change difficulty is really a sham, and it's just simply deciding on how far ahead you want opponents to be in the menu races, so most people are just going to go path of least resistance and go on easy.

Yet the World Circuit races are more or less governed by their own sets of rules, and yet still act upon the basic principle of catch the rabbit scenarios, so really, now you're trying to catch hares instead of rabbits, and how much fun is that for the average player?

It's seriously mind-boggling how hard to grasp the concept of 'difficulty' is to Polyphony, and how it is seemingly impossible for them to have their AI operate on a singular wavelength, across the entire game. But then again, they've already hoodwinked people into believing Sophy is the knight in shining armor, so that just means they'll kick the can down the road and we'll still be having these debates when GT8 comes out. I wonder what the excuse will be then?

 

[dabz343]

If circuit experience had 2 or 3 other cars that battled for position and to gold, you have to pass clean over a 5 lap stint, with tire wear, with an underpowered car -- then I would certainly say PD has done a fine job of introducing racing/racecraft.

Edit -- just because it's not perfect does not mean it is a total failure...irl, we always look to find what is good and build upon it.

 

[NickGuy]

This feels like a stretch when 95% of people playing the game breeze past the descriptors of the license tests teaching them about various concepts of circuit driving, and who's teaching of multiplayer racing is a three minute video that boils down to 'don't ram into people, mmmkay'

stop it bro. Youre blaming the game for the players who skip info?

Theres the license tests that tell you how to take corners and driving lines and apexes and braking. Theres beyond the apex which talks more about overtaking and defending. You cant blame the game for the player not exploring; again, what other game gives the player this much education driving techniques and rules? Or more?

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

ACC didn't teach me much before letting me loose in a race where i was promptly DQ before i even got to the start line

 

[jgtc_lover]

ACC didn't teach me much before letting me loose in a race where i was promptly DQ before i even got to the start line

Same. In ACC all you get is a track day at Monza in a Lamborghini cup car then it just throws you into a season championship and expects you to know how things work. I even had to figure out on my own that GT4 cars don't have tire warmers before a race or in the pits like GT3 cars do, and always go out cold. Even PC2 just gives you a couple "emails" to explain how a season works and throws you in, although the career mode progression in PC2 was top-notch. AMS2 has no explanation of anything outside of menu functions and expects you to make up your own championships with rules you can set yourself.

I don't think I've ever seen anything like the Beyond the Apex article in another racing sim, let alone the license tests and track experiences. GT series games have more hand-holding than any other sim I've ever played. Not that that's a bad thing, it might not be on the same level as iracing but it's a good entry point for people looking to get started in racing sims.

 

[Batschisane52]

Same. In ACC all you get is a track day at Monza in a Lamborghini cup car then it just throws you into a season championship and expects you to know how things work. I even had to figure out on my own that GT4 cars don't have tire warmers before a race or in the pits like GT3 cars do, and always go out cold. Even PC2 just gives you a couple "emails" to explain how a season works and throws you in, although the career mode progression in PC2 was top-notch. AMS2 has no explanation of anything outside of menu functions and expects you to make up your own championships with rules you can set yourself.

I don't think I've ever seen anything like the Beyond the Apex article in another racing sim, let alone the license tests and track experiences. GT series games have more hand-holding than any other sim I've ever played. Not that that's a bad thing, it might not be on the same level as iracing but it's a good entry point for people looking to get started in racing sims.

I know it is off topic, but just a quick question:
Is AMS2 playable with a controller or is that pointless without a wheel ?

 

[FoxMulder]

GT teaches the player about driving more than any other racing game and we still get threads like this lol

It also does a worse job than GT Sport which had narrated videos. GT7 just has gold time videos now and nagging “instructors” that just say keep trying.

 

[Met Entso]

AI continues to brake in absurd places, just like in GTSport, it breaks the immersion.

 

[Marty_Debiru]

Did you missed the entire license center? It's at the top left.

 

[mattikake]

If not the most important and obvious thing in a driving game. It's omission from gt7 context is downright pathetic.

Understanding and teaching clean, safe, and drivable lines should of been implemented in gameplay. Not some beyond the apex article lol.

Knowing when to pass, where to pass, and how to give space.


Which leads me to my next major COMPLAINT

Uncompetitive AI.
Seriously how stupid are the people at polyphony digital?easy,medium,hard difficulty like lol wtf. Because when I go to the real track that's how it is. Lapping guys on easy/normal setting. Getting beat by a lap by guys on hard difficulty.?! Lmao

That's not how real racing works. You incrementally get faster by learning the line from the faster guy in front of you. It maybe by .2 seconds but it's progressing. By the end of 15 laps you've learned a new line are probably a second or 2 faster.

You can't do that In gt7. The ai should have been set like this.
Run qualifying for track.
Now enter race midpack with each lead car set to a pace. .1 seconds faster than you're qualifying time.

Simple, easy and always a fun challenge. As opposed to this weird sadistic circuit experience bologna, or stupid tomahawk grind.

You learn to race by racing other people, not [any] AI.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

You learn to race by racing other people, not [any] AI.

Would you say the same about chess? It’s a computer game, the AI can be programmed to thrash tf out of any human, so you’re not making the point here you seen to think you are.

 

[mattikake]

Really? Whoosh.

Did you learn sex from a blow-up doll?

 

[Batschisane52]

Would you say the same about chess? It’s a computer game, the AI can be programmed to thrash tf out of any human, so you’re not making the point here you seen to think you are.

But you don't learn how to shoot from a shooter game, and you don't learn how to snowboard from a snowboarding game, and you don't learn how to beat peolpe up from a beat-em-up game...