MINI Countryman; Paceman in 2012, WRC Edition

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
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Since the MINI brand is really the only one that seems to be increasing in sales right now, I don't see why BMW wouldn't want to milk the brand for all it's worth. This may sound like a profound statement but the new MINI isn't a classic Mini, the names aren't even the same.
 
Since the MINI brand is really the only one that seems to be increasing in sales right now, I don't see why BMW wouldn't want to milk the brand for all it's worth. This may sound like a profound statement but the new MINI isn't a classic Mini, the names aren't even the same.

I can fully understand why they're doing it. Profit is always good.

But, they're doing it at the expense of a very iconic name, and they are diluting that brand massively. To me, and a lot of other people, that's not on. I don't necessarily want something the size of the original, but I don't want something like the crossover to carry the MINI badge.

And this may sound profound, but changing the letters of a name to upper case doesn't make it a new name for a lot of people, myself included. Following that logic, BMW wouldn't even need to buy the Countryman name, just call it COUNTRYMAN.
 
It might be smaller than the rest of the cars there, but for those of us who are familiar with the original Mini, it's massive, and a disgrace to the Mini name.

People always turn back to this tired old statement but never seem to remember that actually the new MINI is an excellent car. Yes, it's a retro pastiche, but that should only be a problem if the car was utterly hopeless, which it isn't. I love old Mini and new MINI alike. Personally, I'm not at all bothered that BMW bought the name and they can pretty much use it how they wish as long as it's still essentially applied to fairly small cars. As the new SUV is still quite small, and looks more or less like a BMW MINI, then I have no problem with it.

But, they're doing it at the expense of a very iconic name, and they are diluting that brand massively. To me, and a lot of other people, that's not on. I don't necessarily want something the size of the original, but I don't want something like the crossover to carry the MINI badge.

In my opinion, they aren't diluting the name at all. Hypothetically, what if Rover hadn't gone under, and they'd kept the MINI project from BMW? Apart from the fact they'd probably have cocked it up, unlike BMW have, would you have had a problem if they'd made a normal sized hatch? And then a small SUV, whilst still being branded Mini?

The brand is now very, very different from the original Mini. I very much doubt, save for a few people, that the cars have the same market audience.

The people who complain are the ones who've not actually owned either original nor new Mini/MINI. People who own the original seem to be fairly accepting, given what I've read in the numerous Mini magazines that I own (Mini magazines that often cover aspects of the new MINI too) and people who own the new ones love that it passes a resemblance of the classic car, but gives them all the features they need from a modern car.

They'll also doubtless love that they can now get an SUV version, which - let's remember - will be the "family" MINI. They'll now be able to enjoy the new MINI experience with their family, whilst the car is still likely to be smaller than pretty much any other family SUV out there.
 
In my opinion, they aren't diluting the name at all. Hypothetically, what if Rover hadn't gone under, and they'd kept the MINI project from BMW? Apart from the fact they'd probably have cocked it up, unlike BMW have, would you have had a problem if they'd made a normal sized hatch? And then a small SUV, whilst still being branded Mini?

Weren't they still making the original Mini up until the late '90's, if not later? What were their plans for it anyways?


The people who complain are the ones who've not actually owned either original nor new Mini/MINI.

Based on the Mini owners I know, (that being one family with 7 of them, and their friends/club members), that's not necessarily the case. They were more than happy with the new Cooper/one etc., but the reaction to the Clubman was a pretty unanimous WTF, and I can't imagine this being taken any better.

They'll also doubtless love that they can now get an SUV version, which - let's remember - will be the "family" MINI. They'll now be able to enjoy the new MINI experience with their family, whilst the car is still likely to be smaller than pretty much any other family SUV out there.[/QUOTE]

How exactly will they be able to share this any more than they would the Clubman?

I have nothing against the MINI hatch. It's not my cup of tea, and I wouldn't ever dream of owning one, but I can see that they appeal to people, and that's fair enough.
I don't like the Clubman. I think it's overpriced and looks awkward as hell. But then again, I think the Alfa GTV looks like arse so what do I know? People like it, good for them.
But I really think that the crossover it utterly pointless (granted I think most of the small softroaders are), and it really does nothing for the brand. I'm sure they'll sell truckloads of them though, but I really don't think it befits what I personally associate with the Mini name.
 
Weren't they still making the original Mini up until the late '90's, if not later? What were their plans for it anyways?

Their plans were to ditch it due to legislation and produce the first gen of the new MINI that came out earlier this decade. Their plans also included various variants - including something along the lines of the clubman (which for a while was even going to have wooden "structure" on the outside to echo the original countryman), a cabrio, a roadster... etc.

Remember that the original Mini was available in the following formats: Saloon (the one everyone knows), pickup, estate, van, convertible, and then you could maybe add in the original, square fronted clubman as a variant that they tried to move to. The current Clubman sort of deals with the "estate" that the original had, and we already have a standard car and convertible.

I'd personally love to see the return of a van and pickup too (the Clubman would look awesome with rear panels and two normal passenger doors). I don't care that they'd be the new MINI and I don't really mind that they're retro pastiches, because as I mentioned, at the end of the day they're still very good cars.

How exactly will they be able to share this any more than they would the Clubman?

Four proper doors (essential for loading kids) and likely a bigger boot.

But I really think that the crossover it utterly pointless (granted I think most of the small softroaders are), and it really does nothing for the brand. I'm sure they'll sell truckloads of them though, but I really don't think it befits what I personally associate with the Mini name.

I'd argue that if it sells well, then it is doing something for the brand. Not least helping keep the brand alive in a shaky economic climate. Not everyone would be able to trade down to a normal MINI, but I expect many could get away with a "bigger" MINI. And again, I see no less reason to have a small SUV version than BMC saw a reason to have a van or a pickup back in the 60s. It expands the range and introduces new people to the company - back then, tradesmen. Now, it's families. Or people who live out in the sticks who might wish to downgrade from larger off-roaders but for whom things like Toyota Rav 4s and Honda CRVs don't have the image.

And lastly, do remember, even this MINI SUV isn't big. It's big for a MINI, but still small compared to the majority of other SUVs.
 
It expands the range and introduces new people to the company - back then, tradesmen. Now, it's families. Or people who live out in the sticks who might wish to downgrade from larger off-roaders but for whom things like Toyota Rav 4s and Honda CRVs don't have the image.

Exactly. If they build 20,000 and sell all of them, its worth it. There isn't any way around it. When they're selling every damn MINI they build, I see no reason why they can't expand the line into an otherwise "ignored" niche that will likely hold many new sales by days end.

That, and I know I'd pick it over the ugly CR-V or the RAV4, well, if its priced well. The only competition I can see upsetting it for me would be a Subaru Impreza Outback Sport or a VW Tiguan at this point.
 
I suspect a large percentage of the market wouldn't have the Subaru on their radars, but you might be more on track with the VW. I quite like the Tiguan (if I were in the market for a small soft-roader at the moment it's the one I'd go for) but even with the desirability of the VW badge I think MINI might still be in higher demand. Unless people really needed the extra space that I assume the Tiguan will have.
 
The Tiguan isn't as big as it looks on TV, roughly the same size as a RAV4 or CR-V, if anything maybe slightly taller. I really like it as a soft-road alternative here since we no longer have a small AWD car made available from Volkswagen, but I do fear that if they offer a Haldex Jetta Sportwagon, I'd have that instead.
 
I've seen in person (and sat in) a Tiguan, and if anything it's design makes it look smaller than the RAV4 and CR-V, but it could well be slightly bigger. I suppose it all depends on price. If the MINI SUV undercuts it enough then they'll be far enough apart to not be considered rivals and people will buy both cars on merit, and the MINI might steal sales from those wishing to downsize a little. If the MINI is priced too closely then people may look at the Tiguan and decide the extra cost is worth it for the extra size and the VW badge on the front.
 
I've been failing my MINI news obligation.

It seems BMW can't figure out what to call this thing, it's been flipping between Crossman and Countryman since the first shots surfaced.

Motoring File
MINI’s Crossover to be Named Countryman?
BMW AG (parent company of BMW and MINI) has officially registered the “Countryman” name for trademark. We can only assume it is intended for MINI’s upcoming crossover considering the timing. In classic Mini days the Countryman name was used for the long wheel base version of the car in specific markets (along with “traveller”). Its use makes sense here and would be a welcome tie-in with classic Mini history.

Look for the car to officially debut on the web in the weeks ahead with a public debut set for the Frankfurt Motor show in late September. In addition to this look for a special report next week the R60 and the secret story behind its development. You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll probably not like it.

And for the helluva it, most spy spots, this time from California. It's weird seeing a five door MINI like that. It's really hard to make heads or tails of what the final thing is going to look like because of the camo on it. The front of it looks really awkward though.

090709-01-2011_New_Mini_4X4_rear_view_hatch_open.jpg


And here is what is is thought to be the normal model and the S version. I haven't seen anything on what engine will be powering these, but the N/A 1.6L seems like it might be a bit lacking for the normal version. The turbo motor should be fine though. Maybe we'll see a new engine from MINI? Or maybe a version of the 2.0L engine from the BMW 1-series. I also hope we get a diesel engine option here in the states.

Normal Countryman
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Countryman S
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Now I'm just curious if they are going to do a JCW version. Which would be sort of cool in an extremely pointless kind of way.
 
Gah, i still despise it.
 
What platform are they using? It would make sense for them to put this thing on whatever the X1 will be using...
 
What platform are they using? It would make sense for them to put this thing on whatever the X1 will be using...

There isn't much information on the platform that I can find other than it's code is R60. It's being built by Magna Steyr in Austria where the BMW X3 was previously built though.
 
There isn't much information on the platform that I can find other than it's code is R60. It's being built by Magna Steyr in Austria where the BMW X3 was previously built though.

That's where the X1 is scheduled to be built as well, so this Countrymen will probably have a 3-series-ish platform like the X3 and X1. I imagine that BMW would want to go the cheaper route and essentially rebadge something that already exists.
 
That's where the X1 is scheduled to be built as well, so this Countrymen will probably have a 3-series-ish platform like the X3 and X1. I imagine that BMW would want to go the cheaper route and essentially rebadge something that already exists.

The only problem I see with that is that the Countryman is supposed to be FWD/AWD and BMW thinks that FWD is the plague or something. Who knows though, more information is supposed to come this week according to Motoring File.
 
Is that guy really short or is this thing huge? It only looks a couple inches smaller than my raised Blazer.
 
Is that guy really short or is this thing huge? It only looks a couple inches smaller than my raised Blazer.

It is probably pretty big, the more I think about Philly's comment, the more I think it will be just a BMW X1 without the BMW badge, thus making it significantly cheaper. However it will still carry that BMW air about it so I can't imagine it's going to be cheap. I'm guessing starting price will be around $23,000 - $25,000.
 
KILL IT! KILL IT!

An abomination, frankly. If you concentrate really hard, you can almost justify the Clubman. I'm sure a fair proportion of people have wished the standard Mini was a bit more roomy.

But this... no. I'm guessing here, but I don't think Mini dealers are currently being inundated with requests for fatter, taller, 5 door models with higher ground clearance and limited off-road ability.

Annoyingly BMW will find some way of actually making it a vaguely good car, which means I'll be forced to hate it on a conceptual basis alone. Urgh.
 
This clears up some of the questions concerning the Countryman, it will be based on an X1 platform, thus sitting on 3 series architecture. It also seems that the main reason BMW is building the Countryman is not to reach consumer demands, but rather to fill a contractual obligation. It also looks like it will get a 2.0L diesel engine from the BMW line and the rest will more than likely be Peugeot sourced engines.

Motoring File
The Secret History of the MINI R60 Crossover
In 2001 when MINI was relaunched by BMW there were plans for a number of different vehicles. The hatch, the convertible, the clubman and even the yet to be released speedster where on the drawing board with eventual plans for production. However the one variation not on anyone’s mind was a crossover. And here we are, just weeks away from the MINI crossover making its debut.

What created this shift in thinking? The answer isn’t as simple as you might think. Yes BMW wants the crossover to reach new MINI buyers and an entirely new demographic. Yet some of the larger reasons for the crossover is a story of corporate agreements and solving production scale issues rather than solving a consumer problem.

In 2006 BMW decided to move production of its underwhelming X3 crossover from a 3rd party (Magna Steyr) in Austria to it’s own plant in South Carolina USA. The thought was that it made sense for all crossover (SAV in BMW speak) production to be in a more cost efficient country that was also the main market for such vehicles. However there was an issue with this plan, BMW’s contract with Magna Steyr promised two generations of X3 production to be built at the Austrian plant. Somehow BMW had to either move production of a product or create something entirely new to fulfill the contract.

In parallel to these developments was the creation of the BMW X1. Around the time that the BMW 1 Series was launched BMW had decided that the X3 and X5 had to grow in size to better accommodate the US market – by far the largest for the vehicles in the world. However in doing so BMW was concerned that it would be forsaking the European market where smaller more fuel efficient crossovers were in greater demand. So a plan was devised to create a crossover based on the 1 Series that would essentially take the place of the X3 on a slightly smaller scale in both size and price.

As this decision was finalized BMW realized they finally had a solution that would allow them to move X3 production to the US while creating bigger economies of scale for the X1. The idea was simple, build a MINI SAV loosely based on the upcoming X1 in Austria in place of the X3 that would slot under the X1 in terms of price and size.

Nevermind that the concept of the crossover was against much of what the MINI brand stood for. BMW had a two-pronged plan to get around that issue. First off they were going to create a crossover (by then code-named R60 or the Colorado) that looked and drove like a MINI. Take styling cues from the MINI world and amplifying them in a way that gave the car a bit more attitude than any previous MINI. Secondly MINI would answer critics that say the brand had gone to far with lifestyle cars such as a speedster and coupe that would be based on the R56/7 and thus cost effective to create.

So the the task of creating a MINI crossover that retained the MINI look and feel fell to the design department. By all accounts it was something that many within the MINI division of BMW were initially against. Yet when we spoke with Gert Hildebrand recently at MINI United, it was clear that there is great enthusiasm for the R60 internally. Additionally there seems to be an expectation (from those who have seen the car) that the R60 will sell very well – especially in the important US market.

However when you look at the R60 closer you start to question how cost effective it has been to build. First off there are few common parts shared with the BMW X1 outside the rear substructure. In fact much of the structure is either loosely based off of the R55 Clubman or was created from scratch. We had more than one internal source confide in us that they had no idea how BMW planned to make money on the R60 given costs to build and currency fluctuations.

Under the hood the Countryman (as it will likely be called) will share very little with the X1. Instead it will feature the current higher output range of engines found in the current MINI. The only BMW based engine we’ve heard that will show up in the R60 will be the exceptional 2.0L diesel found in the 123d (an engine that may be the basis of any future MINI diesel product in North America). Eventually this may change as BMW’s new range of high output efficient four cylinders will likely slowly make their way over to the MINI line in the next 5-7 years.

One little known fact; MINI had big plans for the R60 in the form of fuel efficiency beyond a new diesel engine. One of the more interesting concepts was fitting solar panels on the roof that would help power the car’s electronics and thus reduce fuel consumption. However the concept was shelved due to cost of development and production.

MINI had another issue on their hands with trying to name the car. With Crossman (the preferred name of BMW execs) being trademarked by a European trucking company, MINI decided to look back at historical MINI models. The “Moke” didn’t make the cut because of the way it sounded. The “Traveller” name was considered but BMW couldn’t obtain the rights to it. Even the internal codename Colorado was being used by GM for their mid-size truck. For a time BMW seriously considered going with (wait for it…) “the Clifton” for the R60 as a nod to the MINI’s English eccentricity. Luckily for everyone involved BMW settled on “Countryman”, a name used for the long wheelbase Mini in the 60’s and 70’s.

In some ways the story of the R60’s development has us reminded of the original R50 program. A car put together from pieces of other projects and built with serious concerns about profitability. However as we all know the R50 was a watershed car and ultimately made the new MINI brand what it is today. At the very least it was the right car for the time. Can the R60 have a similar impact while being a very different product? That may be too much to ask but we are starting to think MINI may have a huge hit ready to be unleashed. With oil prices leveled off and owners of larger cars and crossovers looking to downsize, MINI may have unknowingly be in the right place at just the right time. Now we have to see if it actually drives like a MINI.
 
Isn't the 123d engine the one with like 300 lb. ft? Sweet christmas.
 
Isn't the 123d engine the one with like 300 lb. ft? Sweet christmas.

Yup, it's got 295lb.ft. of torque. It seems rather excessive for a vehicle that probably won't ever tow anything ever. Maybe they will downgrade it though because that much torque through a small FWD SUV seems like a bad idea.
 
Renderings!

Motoring File
New Countryman Renderings Getting Closer to the Real Thing
073020091755421515.jpg


American magazine Road and Track has some new Countryman sketches/renderings that are the closest we’ve seen so far. The new SAV (BMW speak for crossover) will feature a new MINI branded all-wheel drive system as a option along with the top of the line MINI engines from the current range.

Unlike the BMW X1 (which the car is loosely based), the Countryman will only have seating for four (with some markets getting a five seat option) and will include a novel center console that slides front to back for versatility. It sounds a little strange but we’re told to expect something cool.

Official photos are just weeks away and the public debut will be at the Frankfurt Motorshow in late September. We’ll have a full review later this fall.

073020091755453525.jpg
 
I like it, although the back window being shorter than the side windows looks kind of stupid.
 
For some reason, reading the article of how it was put together really makes me like this car. SAV. whatever.

We could surely use the 23d engine, as much as BMW wishes to give it to us, and a tiny SUV truly does make sense in the US, even I have fallen in love with the idea. I can't wait, escpecially if BMW manage to make it pretty.
 
I quite like those renderings. They're a bit more confidence inspiring than the photos of the car disguised which muddle the proportions.

If I could change one thing, it'd be to cut a section off the bottom of the front bumper to give it a better approach angle. I know it won't be used for off-roading but at least it might make it look a bit more purposeful and less completely street-orientated.
 
Actually If I could change one thing, I'd cut the fenders upwards a bit, giving me room to lower it, offer 300HP, and take on Evos and STis....
 
Looks like it's confirmed that the MINI Crossover is going to have a diesel in it. Hopefully it's successful and we get more diesels from both MINI and BMW.

Motoring File
MINI’s US Diesel Plans to Start with the R60
Over the past year and a half we’ve had a handful of sources either allude or outright tell us that the first diesel MINI to hit American soil will be the R60 MINI Crossover. Since that first scoop (way back in 2008) we’ve steadfastly claimed that the R60 would include a US bound 2.0L BMW derived turbo diesel powerplant identical to the one found in the current 1 and 3 series in Europe and the UK.

So why are we reminding you of this now? With the Crossover to be released next week it’s important to remember that we’ll not only see the full range of petrol powerplants. We believe this will eventually range from the 1.6L found in the One to the turbo MCS engine. But we’ll also eventually see at least two diesel engines ranging that could both be BMW powerplants. The more powerful of these two will (if sources are correct) will be the 2.0L 204hp diesel engine in the 123d that produces an astonishing 295 ft lbs of torque.
 
NOES! DISEASEL!

:P

Personally, I'm having trouble deciding if this is really the world's smallest SUV (since the Willy's CJ, those buggers are tiny...) or a Rally-bred Hatch with too much ground clearance.
 
Once again, that front end is hideous. But I like the rest. All I want now is a nice five door with rally prowess.
 
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