Modifying Existing Race Cars

[TheCracker]

I've searched for a similar topic and not found one that matches - so...

One thing i didn't like about GT3, was the possibility to modify (the turbos i think) on existing 'race' cars like the Calsonic Skyline, Toyota GT1 etc etc and raise the power, sometimes substantially. My problem with this is that since these race cars are already probably pushing their horsepower limits, certainly as far as their regulations go - why do they think that straping on a larger turbo is plausible? If a race car comes with 497bhp in reality - then it should stay like that in the game. A Cusco Impreza - even if they managed to get nearly 1000bhp out of it in reality would still not be able to run with a Toyota GT1 like it does in the game. Stretching that little engine to 1000bhp would make it practically undriveable.

I would be interested if anyone else would like to see this removed in GT4

 

[Dave A]

It is always possible to increase power by fitting larger turbo's and the like, the reason race cars have a certain power is usually down to the regulations for whichever class they race in. A Cusco Impreza would never keep up with a GT-One in a race, because power isn't everything, the cars chassis has to be stable enough to handle the power, and aerodynamics come into play too. I don't mind being able to modify race cars, but I do think that it should hinder some cars rather than make them faster, a GT-One or R390 could probably handle 1000Bhp without much worry, but other cars wouldn't.

 

[heero 12]

Would you like to have the wheelie trick gone? I wouldn't, so I say keep them in, let the n00bs spin out at every corner.

 

[Cosmic]

I hope it's going to be just like in GT2. You can't tune race cars 👍
Heero 12 > Good one 👍

 

[TriplePlay]

I second thecracker's comments on the chasis not being strong enough to handle the power. I mean the way we're goin, we'll be makin our Model-T's go 140+, when in reality they couldn't handle much over 50 (because of how much it weighs, material, etc).

I hope GT4 makes you find that soft point where you can tune it to the max while not breaking down. Such as if a sedan can't handle 400bhp, then putting it at 500 would make it go extremely slow. But putting it at 350 bhp.......👍

 

[Eagle]

Here you would find another plausible reason for the inclusion of racing modifications, changing cars so that their body shell and overall stability could support the inclusion of more powerful performance components.

I was pretty surprised the first time I saw I could throw a stage 4 into my GT-ONE Race Car in GT3. After running with 672BHP and setting lightning laps in GT2, to suddenly have over 1300BHP was pretty staggering, and in all honesty just seemed unrealistic.

It does seem weird to throw nearly 1000BHP into what is essentially a stock car and be able to drive it stunningly quick, I'm no expert but I'm going to assume that doesn't work quite so well in real life.

 

[Greyout]

there are plenty of production cars that cruise around on our streets daily with 800, 900, or even 1000 HP

Toyota Supra w/ a basketball-sized single turbo anyone? There is a local one that I was pacing at a constant 120 mph - he punched it... it actually lit up both rear tires in a trail of smoke, squatted down, and took off like I was standing still. Ands its definately not the quickest one around (which happens to trap 154mph in the 1/4 mile)

What GT3 does NOT simulate is Turbo lag. GT1 got that down pretty well, but it went away for some reason. If it was realistically simulated, putting that stage 4 turbo w/ 1000HP may not seem like such a good idea when you don't build boost until you hit 5,000 RPM (like the supra mentioned above)

 

[TheCracker]

You read stories of all those 1000bhp road-going Skylines in Japan 'granading' their engines on a regular basis, just like the F1 Brabham/BMWs did with their 1300+bhp 'qualifying' engines in the 80s'

Forget building a chassis or transmission capable of withstanding that amount of power - they still have real difficulty producing engines that can last for more than a handful of laps tuned like that.

 

[Greyout]

A NHRA top fuel dragster engine is built to endure a mere 900 revolutions under full load between rebuilds

 

[Dave A]

The old CanAm cars had over 1000Bhp and they managed full races with thweir engines, several group C cars had around 800Bhp and entered LeMans, if a group C car can handle 800Bhp, a GT-One definitely can. It's not unrealistic being able to further tune a race car, but there should be a point where you overdo it.

 

[yeti]

Another thing that is slightly missing...

Would not a larger Intercooler and a bigger turbo weigh more?!

I don't think that installing these parts actually change the weight of your car do they?

Then again... it doesn't factor in weight of driver too!!

C.

 

[L1ama]

i just hope there will be regulations, i dont wanna go in a race with turbo 900hp and all other race cars like me are 500 hp, or go into a race that cars have 900hp and i will have 500, it should say the stats of the car, and how much hp it has, and there should be regulations on hp for a lot of races, maybe most

 

[yeti]

Power to weight is the better way of limiting something...

The one reason why I raced so many races with the ZZ-III or whatever was cos it was so light 4WD and reasonable power...

C.

 

[Dave A]

Most competitions should have maximum power limit and a seperate minimum weight limit.

 

[Martinmaxx]

I've searched for a similar topic and not found one that matches - so...

One thing i didn't like about GT3, was the possibility to modify (the turbos i think) on existing 'race' cars like the Calsonic Skyline, Toyota GT1 etc etc and raise the power, sometimes substantially. My problem with this is that since these race cars are already probably pushing their horsepower limits, certainly as far as their regulations go - why do they think that straping on a larger turbo is plausible? If a race car comes with 497bhp in reality - then it should stay like that in the game. A Cusco Impreza - even if they managed to get nearly 1000bhp out of it in reality would still not be able to run with a Toyota GT1 like it does in the game. Stretching that little engine to 1000bhp would make it practically undriveable.

I would be interested if anyone else would like to see this removed in GT4

I agree.

I always prefer to run race cars on their "real" power, w/o any engine modifications. By doing so, you can appreciate the chassis balance. Also, on the new GT4 physics, I think that a mega horsepower car will be quite hard to keep ion track. The new physics, combined with the 900º of DFP will surelly not let you drive consistently a 1000hp street RWD Supra, with no downforce.

Anyhow, as I believe that many people will want to drive those mega horsepower cars in GT4, it will not hurt to have the chance to do it myself from time to time. The advantage of having the option to tune the car is that if you want normal power, you can leave the car stock, and if you want mega horsepower, you put a stage 4 turbo. Options are always welcome.

But the real interesting aspect of tuning these engines would be if engine damage/failure is finally implemented in the game. As you have said, these highly tuned engines usually fail or overheat. I´ve seen many Best Motoring battles between highly tuned Skylines (700 to 1000hp), and they usually DNF the race for these reasons. Engine failure will prevent GT4 drivers from overtuning their engines. What do you think?

 

[TheCracker]

The old CanAm cars had over 1000Bhp and they managed full races with thweir engines, several group C cars had around 800Bhp and entered LeMans, if a group C car can handle 800Bhp, a GT-One definitely can. It's not unrealistic being able to further tune a race car, but there should be a point where you overdo it.

CanAm cars did have upto 1000bhp - but then they had 8 litre V8's - 1000bhp out of a 2 litre flat four is stretching things a little.

 

[T5-R]

Yeah drasticly increasing race cars, or even road cars to insane performance seems a bit silly. GT1 seemed more realistic in that regard.

Maybe just have the race cars which you can't stick in a stupid turbo, but can adjust all the settings.

 

[Buggy Boy]

In some competitions there's also added weight to reach a weight limit. Or an air restrictor added.

It would be realistic if we could take away these restrictions to take part in "open races", not restricted by the same rules.

But "tuning up" race cars - nep for me 👎

 

[Lethalchem]

I've always been a little confused at how the whole modification thing was decided on. Some HP caps seemed too low for the vehicle in question, while others seemed rediculously overdone. There's a lot more to adding horsepower than "slapping on a stage 4 turbo". I suppose the question the game designers have to ask themselves, is "How realistic do we really want to go with all this?"

Adding HP through boost is easy, but the stock bottom end usually cannot be retained, nor can you keep the stock rear end in most cases. There are tons of variables that would need to be considered.

I'd like to see the modifications become more realistic. The 1000hp Supra mentioned above will not be running that kind of boost (probably in the 30's) on a daily basis, and certainly not on pump gas. A member of my car club had a 650rwhp Supra, but he ran it at around 450rwhp the majority of the time for reliability and drivability. I would love to see engine/drivetrain damage and fuel consumption be factored into this game, as it would certianly be impacted by modification choices. Just like reality!

It would also be fun to have a proper variety of options for modifications, and their subsequent affects upon the cars. For example, as stated above, it would be enjoyable to experience the lag of a large turbo (making it a poor choice for tight courses, but great for long open ones), but also to have the option of the immediate torque application of a positive displacement supercharger (which would choke off up high, but be perfect for the tighter courses). This would add an element of thought/strategy to the modification process.

 

[35mm]

To be honest I've never raised the horsepower of those ~600hp cars in GT3.

Still if those figures are realistic (I would like to know actually), I guess it is interesting to see the amount of hp that you can release from those engines without regulations restrictions.

I'm sure some of those chassis are up to the job with those amounts of hp. I guess a rally car can easily stand approximately 600hp and thats doubling their original power.

 

[CRX]

CanAm cars did have upto 1000bhp - but then they had 8 litre V8's - 1000bhp out of a 2 litre flat four is stretching things a little.

In the 80s, formula ones had 1.5 liter engines with an output approaching 1500hp, so maybe your example isn't so unrealistic.

Anyways, realism isn't my biggest concern about 1000+hp cars in GT, the real problem with these cars is that they're not that fun to drive, even if mastering them is quite a challenge (and having played Prologue, I think they'll be even harder to master in GT4).

 

[toler]

that´s just why in gt3 i keep two versions of most of the cars i like. one is for tuning the hell out of it and the other one stays as it is.
also, after having driven the mclaren f1 in gt4p, i agree that handling those 1000+ hp/ps cars is gonna be a REAL challenge!

 

[jr93alty]

for one...most people that mod the hell out of their car on gt3 buy every upgrade possible...drivetrain, etc...so those parts that cost 10's of thousands of dollars can handle it. as for the chassis...chassis' can easily be strengthened with cross beams, etc... so thats not a problem either. the problem is that todays cars' parts are built with aluminum which has no endurance limit therefore will eventually fail. however, things as simple as a ford C4 transmission and a 9 inch rear end can be drag raced all day and beat to death with hundreds of horsepower and never fail. same goes with the rb series nissan motors. people claim to see them exploding but i beg to differ. there are plenty of 1000hp skylines that run well over 50k miles. with proper coolant ports, pistons, rods, and a balanced crank, these engines will run forever. the block is bulletproof from the factory with no aluminum in sight. same goes for the JZ motors. ive heard of testers running close to 3000 hp thru the toyota motor without it breaking. hp isnt necessarilly what breaks a motor. if that were the case, air craft carriers would be in the ports all the time for repairs. its just a matter of what that material can handle. and with chromoly and other new steel alloys, there's no limit in sight. and as for those high hp motors in f1 races or nhra or whatever...they arent burning petrol so they dont count. alcohol and nitromethane dont count unless its an option on gt4 which i highly doubt because they need different valve specs. basically, they need a whole new head.

 

[TrinityJayOne]

I wasn't really a fan of further upgrading the race cars either. My GT-One has about 700BHP, my Viper has a little bit more and my 787B has a little more again. The only race model car I fully upgraded was the FTO LM, because it's 4WD and can handle the power. I prefer having a car that you can push to the limits rather than something that you struggle to keep on the road.

On the turbo note, I really wish the turbo lag of GT1 would make a return. Of course if that happens, I'd want the boost setting back too.

 

[TheCracker]

The main trouble with increasing the horsepower so much is the flexibility or driveability of the engine in question. To have such a large turbo on a high boost would mean an on-and-off style power delivery and a very narrow (even by race car standards) power band. If PD do keep the ability to modify the race cars this way, i would like them to make the flexibility of the engines poorer as well.

Dragsters and IndyCar/ChampCar may run on 'alcohol' but F1 has to use 'pump' petrol. The 1500bhp turbo engines that the F1 teams had in the 80s' were only used for qualifying - and notoriously lasted only a few laps. The race spec engines had nearer 800-900bhp.

 

[Martinmaxx]

same goes with the rb series nissan motors. people claim to see them exploding but i beg to differ. there are plenty of 1000hp skylines that run well over 50k miles. with proper coolant ports, pistons, rods, and a balanced crank, these engines will run forever. the block is bulletproof from the factory with no aluminum in sight.

One thing is drving a 1000hp RB26 engined Skyline at street or highway speeds for 50K miles, but driving it at it´s full potential is a different thing altogether. These engines will fail one way or another. Even the best RB26 tuners such as Mines, Esprit or Top Secret have their 700/1200hp engines fail very often if used on track with full boost. And they fail even if they rebuild them with low miles. Everytime Best Motoring tests these highly tuned cars, one or two of them fail. And you can be sure that these tuners supply their BEST engines for the track battles. This problem is more evident during hot weather, due to severe overheating.

 

[Sven]

If you read the turbo upgrade text in the tune shop in GT3, you'd see that 80,000 cr. gets you a lot more than just a blower. The "Turbo Kit" (not just a turbocharger!) replaces cams, valves, oil pumps, connecting rods, and puts in other "high durability parts." That's why the package costs 80,000 cr. So it's not like you just put on a giant blower and hope it doesn't explode.

 

[TheCracker]

Still the pressures we are talking about still can give major headaches to the most durable of components. Look at the problems that Mclaren Mercedes are having with their 'normally-aspirated' 3ltr V10 F1 engine. Mercedes plough tens of millions of Euros' into those engines - and still have difficulty getting them to run for more than a handful of racing speed hours.

 

[phantasm]

i'm slapping a stage 4 turbo on the model T... don't care what anyone says... ULTIMATE SLEEPER

 

[Greyout]

I hope it allows you to put a "stage IV" or whatever on every car - even if it makes it unusable.

You could put a T-88 on a model-T engine - and it would simply never spool. Ever.

Actually, it would be really cool if the turbo kits were broken down into more then just 4 levels - choosing the proper turbine & compressor would allow you to make the power the way you want it - and if you go too extreme, the car turns out to be slower, despite maybe making a astronomical power spike right before redline.

This could be incorporated into N/A cars as well - how agressive do you want your cams? How short do you want your intake runners?

You'd have to bring back the dyno graph that was in GT1 & GT2, but i think they should do that anyway.

It would turn tuning into an engaging process, instead of going through the motions, and hearing the "daahhh.... dah..dah.dah.dah..daaahhhhhh....... dahhh...." sound for 5 minutes while you max everything out as usual.