Monza inaccuracies

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by Mike_grpA, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    This really isn't a big problem or anything, but I can't help but notice there are a lot of inaccuracies in the Monza of Pcars.

    First one I noticed was the banking, as you go through the first chicane, the banking you see going off to the right is enormous. It seems so stand about twice as tall as the real thing at it's outer edge.

    Next I noticed the banking of the two Lesmos is far off the real thing. The real first Lesmo has a bit of a banking to it, and the second one is almost completely flat. In Pcars' Monza, both Lesmos have quite significant banking, and the second one seems significantly wider than the real one too (track width that is).

    Third thing I noticed is the kerbs seem very tall and sharp compared with the real Monza. This is especially noticable on the inside of Curva Grande, and the inside kerb of the right hand part of Ascari.

    I haven't had a close look at things, just noticed these things while doing a Formula C race there, so there's probably a few things I've missed too. I know it's not a big deal, but in this day and age of mega accurate, laser scanned tracks, some of these inaccuracies are so big that they stand out like a sore thumb. I'll also add that the GT5/6 version of Monza is far more accurate. I actually did look around quite a bit on that version in photo mode, and found the only thing wrong was the Pirelli circuit entry before Curva Grande was completely missing.

    I'll try and find some photos for comparison, and edit this post when I have some.

    What do you think? Are there major inaccuracies in any other tracks that you've noticed?
     
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  2. ipswich1992

    ipswich1992

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    It's funny isn't it that after many years of watching millions of hours of footage and driving around them in several games, that (F1 tracks at least) when I drive a track on a game, I go round a corner and can instantly go - nope that's wrong. Apexes, kerbs, corner angle, camber/off-camber, elevation/banking I can all tell are not the real thing. Usually I admit these days the mistakes games make are actually minimal, but it's just funny how I can just tell.

    While it's not bad, I would admit Monza on pcars is not the most accurate track they've done. But I'll take it cos it's not a licensed F1 game so I'll let them off a bit hehe. It would bug me so much more on a game where all they have is the 19 F1 circuits. (not discussing F1 games here, just using it for my point :p)

    For example on Grid Autosport - Spa is a bit wrong, but I don't mind so much because it's not a sim nor is it licensed, and it's close enough really not too matter too much. Whereas on F1 2015, if they'd done that I'd be upset. Pcars Monza is somewhere in the middle, it's not bad at all! Just some small things, and also it's not as arcady as grid, nor as licensed as F1 (NOT calling it a sim.), so I feel pcars gets away with it without too much ill feeling here too.

    Not an issue like Mike said, just worth discussing and mentioning I guess hehe.
     
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  3. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    Yeah I guess it only bothers me a little because Pcars is trying to be a proper sim, but I can forgive it because I know it was done on a budget, and it's damn good otherwise. Really just first world problems lol.

    I also noticed Autosport's Spa. I remember that because I was surprised to see how different it was to F1. Was Autosport made by different people at Codies to the F1 games or something? I would have expected them to just re-use the version from F1 2013, considering the two games run on the same engine lol.

    I can't wait for AC on console, with it's laser scanned tracks. I'm a bit of a motorsport nerd, and I'm obsessed with auto technology and circuits in particular, so I love me a good accurate track in a sim lol.
     
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  4. LumpiestFish

    LumpiestFish

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    Their depiction of Bathurst is unbelievably crap too
     
  5. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    Is it really? I've only done a couple of free practice laps there, but I did notice the detail of the off track stuff like trees and houses etc. is pretty horrible there. Is the track itself inaccurate? I know GT6's version of Bathurst is incredibly accurate.
     
  6. Devilb0y

    Devilb0y

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    I read somewhere that Sonoma is also inaccurate some thing with the banking and elevations. I wouldn't know though, never been there and last game I drove it on was GT4 called Ifinion back then
     
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  7. GTP Red Pill

    GTP Red Pill Premium

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    Hey SMS, two words:

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Football67611

    Football67611

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    Are all tracks in GT and others games all scanned? I wish they all were scanned in PCars, but I know how expensive it must be.
     
  9. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    I also wouldn't be able to comment on Sonoma, though I do remember the elevation in the old GT version being significantly less extreme. Not saying the GT version was accurate, I wouldn't know, but I do know GT games tracks that I know well are bloody accurate (Monza, Bathurst, Spa, Nurburgring, Suzuka, etc.).

    No, not all game devs laser scan tracks, and of the ones that do, most only have a few scanned tracks. PD apparently scanned Bathurst (I'd believe that, as the surface is ridiculously accurate), and I know that the FIA certification process requires the track to adhere to quite strict accuracy targets, so even the ones in GT that aren't scanned are very accurate (I don't believe Suzuka or Monza are laser scanned, but they're almost 1:1 with the real tracks, albeit Monza is an older version, missing the new runoffs, some kerbs and the new motorcycle shortcut in the first chicane).

    I believe Forza has a laser scanned version of the Nurburgring, which is awesome, but not all of the other tracks are scanned.

    As far as I know, Iracing and Assetto Corsa are the only racing games where all of their tracks are laser scanned. Feel free to correct me if there are others.

    PD have always strived to make GT's tracks as realistic as possible, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a large number of scanned tracks in GT7. It does cost a lot of money to build a track this way though, and I'd be surprised if SMS even has laser scanning equipment, so I really don't expect scanned tracks in Pcars. I just wish they could build more accurate tracks, as in the case of Monza, a quick look on Google street view (yes they actually lapped Monza for google earth's street view :D) will show up how inaccurate the Pcars version is.
     
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  10. CarreraGT

    CarreraGT

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    Come on, its not that bad...
     
  11. David Talle

    David Talle

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    There are some laser scanned tracks in pCARS, like Brands Hatch for instance and few others (4 I think).
    It's disappointing to have rather large inaccuracies on the tracks themselves. :(
     
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  12. LumpiestFish

    LumpiestFish

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    It's not very good..
     
  13. NightHawkFur

    NightHawkFur

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    I remember the N64 1997 F1 game where they used a "slightly" obsolete layout of the Hungaroring from 1988... :D
     
  14. eran0004

    eran0004 Premium

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    Maybe they scanned the infrared echo from the track, bouncing off of Alpha Centauri, 4.4 lightyears away :eek:
     
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  15. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    Really? Wow I never knew that. I honestly didn't think any of them would have been due to the relatively small budget. That makes it even stranger that some tracks have such glaring faults.
     
  16. McKiernan

    McKiernan Premium

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    I was reading a post by Ian Bell on the official forums a while ago. He was talking about laser scanning tracks and how it actually might be cheaper in terms of man hours to laser scan tracks & was something they were looking into. Hopefully that is true & we can look forward to more laser scanned tracks in the future. Fingers crossed.
     
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  17. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    That would be amazing. In any case the content I'm most looking forward to is the historic DLC, and since they can't exactly laser scan tracks that no longer exist, I hope they up their game in track building from photos and old videos.
     
  18. fatkrakr

    fatkrakr

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    He also stated at the beginning of the WMD project that laser scanning tracks was a waste because you could create just as accurate a track as laser scanning from satellite pics and photos. Back then that was the main reason they gave for not doing so.
     
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  19. McKiernan

    McKiernan Premium

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    Interesting, I wonder if having laser scanned some tracks (eg. Brands Hatch) gave SMS the opportunity to see which approach is more cost effective? I believe this was the point he was making, it was about cost effectiveness rather than accuracy. If it is more cost effective to laser scan, surely that will have a positive effect on accuracy also.
     
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  20. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    You could do an accurate track layout from satellite photos, but laser scanning enables you to also have an accurate track surface that you couldn't possibly get with photos.
     
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  21. DrJustice

    DrJustice

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    CAD and survey geodata is usually the reference.
     
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  22. fatkrakr

    fatkrakr

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    I think each track owner should just pay to have their track scanned and then when a developer wants to license the track you can include the laser scanning as part of the package. I think most tracks would have no issues recouping the money. Extra fee to include the laser scanning would be a hit with game developers I think. Also lets the track owner maintain quality to a certain degree.
     
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  23. David Talle

    David Talle

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    If I remember correctly, most if not every laser-scanned tracks in pCARS are in the UK or not far away, so that's probably cheaper than sending a team scanning Suzuka or Bathurst. :D
    I have to check the list of scanned tracks though.

    Edit: Yup, laser-scanned tracks are : Brands Hatch, Oulton Park, Cadwell Park & Snetterton

    Having a database sounds a good idea but I guess the tracks earn a lot more as it is now. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
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  24. CarreraGT

    CarreraGT

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    I think it's quite good, as is the rendition in GT6. And I've spent a bit of time driving around the place, not to mention watching the race for the past 20 years...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
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  25. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    From comparison videos the layout and elevation looks fine, except the track is maybe a little too wide after skyline and around forest's elbow, but not by much. The biggest difference between the two is the track surface is more accurate in GT6, but considering it was meant to have been laser scanned, that isn't a surprise. GT6 version has the right surface camber, and the bumps and dips right where they are on the real thing. Pcars' version seem to be pretty good though. Certainly more accurate than their version of Monza!
     
  26. CarreraGT

    CarreraGT

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    Yeah I was really impressed by the GT6 model, especially the actual look of the tarmac with the squiggly crack repair lines etc. The only thing that bothered me about the GT6 model was the "concrete" tire barrier at the exit to Forrests elbow! Destroyed many a quick lap
     
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  27. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    100% agree mate, that was my only problem with it too. It prevented you from being able to use that last tiny bit of corner exit, and at Forest's elbow, it's crucial to get your line perfect, and use every last cm of exit. Glad it's not there in Pcars, even though the tyres wouldn't be 'concrete' in Pcars, clipping them would wash off a little bit of speed, which would translate to a lot of speed heading into the chase.

    Edit: Those squiggly lines are the laziest way to repair cracks in the asphalt lol. They are everywhere in Tassie, and I swear the road is worse with them than when it was just cracked lol.
     
  28. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    This is what I hope the standard would be in the future. I find it ridiculous that different developers have to laser scan the same track multiple times for their games (Nordschleife for example has been scanned by iRacing, Assetto, Forza, Raceroom and possibly GT). I mean I love the Nurb, but that's just such a waste of money, time and effort for the same result. If every track has a centralised "laser scan bank" they could just pay the license fee inclusive of the data once, and focus on including a wider variety of lesser known tracks. Imagine rFactor's library of mod tracks all laser scanned :drool:
     
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  29. Mike_grpA

    Mike_grpA

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    So someone linked a post in the official forum to here, to see if anyone there had noticed, and the usual crew of people came out of the woodworks to claim the game was perfect and I was only comparing it to GT6 lol. (I was comparing it to real life and AC's laser scanned version).

    The part I found funny was Ian Bell actually came to the game's defence twice in that thread. I haven't seen him addressing anyone's problems with the game in a long time, and there seems to be endless threads about bugs that have been completely ignored by SMS, so it's funny that he'd take the time to defend the game's inferior version of a track, instead of talking to people who had problems with the game crashing or bugs. He even claimed Lewis Hamilton told them to add more camber to Lesmo 2, or rather he said Nic and maybe a famous relative of his told them to, but it's obvious what he's trying to claim, without actually name dropping because it's obviously just bs and he doesn't want to get in trouble.

    I posted this comparison video between Pcars and AC, in which you can quite clearly see the massive difference in the oval, and the difference in the amount of banking in most corners. Note that AC's version is laser scanned, and I somehow doubt that a laser scanned version of Italy's most famous track, done by an Italian company well known for their obsessive attention to detail, is going to be less realistic than a version that seems to just be updated from the shift series, no matter how many times Ian claims "real racing drivers" helped them to tweak it.

     
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  30. Animera

    Animera

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    Don't compare PCARS with AC, rather compare it to real life.

     
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