More Motorsports or more road going vehicles in GT7?

[phonypoly]

Test Drive Unlimited had it. But TDU2s physics are worse than TD6s physics...

Speaking of TD6.... "Here in my car, I feel safest of all. I can lock up my doors, and thats the only way in, in cars. Da, da, da da; da, da, da da." :Lol:

Here in my car, I know I started to think, about buying GT7, so I may continue to play .... with cars. Dadadada .....dadadada .... 🤬
Hey; GT7 New Slogan perhaps? "GT7 - It's The Only Way To Live in Cars!"


Oops, wrong thread? That last suggestion belongs to the "New Slogan" thread.

 

[05XR8]

There's a suggestion thread for this. It would be quite easy to add the required parts to turn any EK Civic road car, in GT from stock to this:

And this Spoon race car which is pretty much the Civic Touring Car '97

 

[Griffith500]

There is one thing I wanted to add about the above post I made about specific Race Mod GT style, and doing it the Forza way by customizing your car as you see fit. In GT and Forza, there are a few race cars which have their sports car equivalents there in the game.

As an example, there is the 2005 vintage Ford GT, though in Gran Turismo it's a hypothetical racer, and in Forza they included a couple of real world machines. If anyone has experimented with making an off the cuff racer using mods, there are some interesting differences. In Forza, you can get a Ford GT street car to perform pretty much the same as the dedicated race cars. In GT5 and 6 however, even with medium Race tires, the cars are slippery beasts compared to the race car. You can get closer with some of the other makes, particularly the Corvettes and Vipers which are low, corner hugging monsters to start with. The race modded Corvette is still superior to anything you can build up. They're fun to race and all, and I've had a lot of fun building up racing Ferraris, Jaguars and the lot, but they don't quite match the sure footed racing machines.

This is something which could stand some improvement in GT7, and as Griffith and I have said, going that route should still allow people to make cars which suit the specifications of various leagues, as well as fantasy leagues we create for online racing groups.

I think a lot of that is due to the suspension geometry and engine etc. not being movable within the chassis, and even things like the larger wheels they tend to run. But these are effectively routine engineering and fabrication tasks.

Obviously, it presents a challenge to PD as to how to allow players to make their own suspension geometries and move the larger lumps around the car to better balance it. If there are existing cars to copy, fine, but that won't always be the case; making a general system is harder, but better for us.


I don't know which would be better for PD in this specific case (GT7), depending on the kinds of classes of cars people want to copy - I should think being able to opt between "stock" and "race" configurations of each aspect would suffice.

E.g. race fuel tank, battery, engine, gearbox, driver etc. locations each selectable separately for various levels of modification. The suspension (and e.g. subframe) geometries could vary from road to circuit to rally etc. as distinct options, too, although that's a bit more involved for the content creators. Maye the combination of all of it could be a single "race mod" option, too.

That general system would be very welcome in the case of the suspension (rather than creating presets for every car), maybe separated out as track width, stroke, perch height, motion / lever type etc. that can test for intersection with car chassis and body parts (the body parts themselves need to be shapable to clear e.g. wider tracks and larger wheels, and just for looks as much as anything else). Players could perhaps share pre-made packages of such modifications they make themselves.


That's how I'd do it, anyway.

 

[pasigiri]

I like the race cars/track racing, but modding road going cars, tuning their suspension, and what not is awesome to me. Another thing I think many driving sims miss out on is the love of driving a well sorted out car on a beautiful stretch of road. I think this is why Driveclub has me hooked. The cars drive arcade like when compared to GT, Forza, and PCars, but MY GOODNESS the scenery!!!

 

[Tenacious D]

That general system would be very welcome in the case of the suspension (rather than creating presets for every car)

On this point, let's say that you wanted to see a system of whatever form that would turn that Ford GT into a race car. Would you like to see presets in a Race Mod tool that would kick out a car tailor made for different leagues (ALMS, FIA GT etc), or something more generic to make development easier?

Actually the generic thing would work fine if GT7 would "homologate" or tune the performance of the car in the background to be comparable to the other cars in a specific league based event, so it wouldn't underperform or blow through the pack. I'm curious of the approach you would take if you were Kaz.

As a quick addendum before bed, would you leave the league based race cars to PD to build, and leave the fantasy stuff for us to mod up?

 

[ImaRobot]

As an example, there is the 2005 vintage Ford GT, though in Gran Turismo it's a hypothetical racer, and in Forza they included a couple of real world machines. If anyone has experimented with making an off the cuff racer using mods, there are some interesting differences. In Forza, you can get a Ford GT street car to perform pretty much the same as the dedicated race cars.

I would have to disagree with this. In Forza, when trying to make your very own race car to compare to the in-game race variant, they do not feel the same at all and will never come close to each other. Handling and suspension wise, the base model will never be able to achieve anything close to the actual race car or anything resembling it. They are a whole different beast.

It's even more apparent when you try to get a lower leveled car to race specs.

That said, however, I would love to be able to make a race-car out of.. well everything really

 

[masterrugalm]

My guess is I don't think they were very popular based on racing online. In 4 years of racing online in GT5 and 6 you would see lots of rooms for GT300/500, Nascar, DTM, LMP and a few other single cars but rarely would you see a room for Race Mod cars and I think the reason is simple - they aren't competitive with each other and must be raced alone. Single make races just aren't popular online and the cars didn't match up well using the PP system. For race mod to be really popular I think they need to do two things:

1. Create fictional race series with the race mods with certain classes of cars that are closely competitive with each other.

2. Create fictional race mods that fit into different series regs as PCars, for example, did with the outstanding RGT-8. If you didn't know any better, you would not be able to tell this car was a fictional GT3 car as it fits right in performance wise and looks the part perfectly.

So long as the race mods are basically standalone vehicles, they will never be really popular in the general sense IMO.

I agree with you, I think that the main problem with RM cars it's that just some of them have similar specs, this is the same problem with VGT, so one-make races seems the only way to go for them.

 

[doblocruiser]

I prefer the racecars or ordinary saloons and hatches that than be made into racecars or can ben heavily tuned. No fan of hypercars, supercars and all that kind of stuff.

 

[AlexN8710]

This beg the question, is GT a driving simulator or a racing simulator?

Personally, I'd like a driving simulator with better racing. I do miss race modifications from GT1 though, it was always an event to be able to afford it.

Mitsubishi GTO '92 twin turbo. 931 hp and I've never forgotten it becoming my first truly fast GT car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree with you, I think that the main problem with RM cars it's that just some of them have similar specs, this is the same problem with VGT, so one-make races seems the only way to go for them.

Exactly. Anyone that's ever tried to organize a race series in GT knows how difficult it is to match up cars and get some even racing. It's extremely difficult and I've seen many series devolve into arguing and eventual implosion because initial testing did not reveal all the differences between the various cars. This is why I think at least some of the RM's, if they make it into GT7, should be targeted into certain race series, real or fictional. Why make a bunch of cars into race mods with random specs like they do now when you can create a whole fictional series of similar spec'd cars or slot RM's into existing series like GT500 or DTM or GT3/4/5 etc.? Seems to me you'd get much more bang for your buck if your efforts are targeted rather than random.

 

[JKgo]

...Hmm, dunno if anyone mentioned this before but how about multiple Race Mod possibilities? Like, buy a... say, a Supra (hopefully a Premium by the time GT7 hits) and take it to GT Auto or wherever.

In the menu, depending on how much you are willing to shell out, two or three different mods for it are available.
One's for a full on D1 spec, another for a JGTC and another for a GT3 or some such.

Apply this across most of the popular cars - wouldn't this solve a lot of headaches?



Just a thought.

 

[Tenacious D]

I would have to disagree with this. In Forza, when trying to make your very own race car to compare to the in-game race variant, they do not feel the same at all and will never come close to each other. Handling and suspension wise, the base model will never be able to achieve anything close to the actual race car or anything resembling it. They are a whole different beast.

I suppose this depends on the Forza. In previous versions, 1-3, the differences were negligible. I must admit I haven't tried it in F4 because you could paint over the liveries of the full blown racing machines, and have no experience with F5 which is supposed to be even closer to reality in physics.

...Hmm, dunno if anyone mentioned this before but how about multiple Race Mod possibilities? Like, buy a... say, a Supra (hopefully a Premium by the time GT7 hits) and take it to GT Auto or wherever.

In the menu, depending on how much you are willing to shell out, two or three different mods for it are available.
One's for a full on D1 spec, another for a JGTC and another for a GT3 or some such.

Actually, I've discussed this very aspect on this and a previous page, and I believe Griffith500 too. But this is very much what I'd like to see, depending on how much work it would be for the team.

Just to reiterate, I want to see both a gob of race cars from every league Kaz can license, and enough alternate liveries so that a full field of cars can fill out a race, without duplicates or non-league cars added in to fill out slots. I also want that Race Mod system so that like you said, take a Supra, Jaguar, Viper, Focus or whatever and mod it up to suit whatever league it would fit in. A few here have pointed out that the Race Mods would have to be created to start with, rather than relying on maths for definite car performance based on how the upgrades all factor in. But it could be that the physics engine is good enough to properly generate a race car based on how we "spec it up" in the mod system. I'm hopeful that PD will go this route, because the system Forza offers is elegant and keeps the community engaged with the game long past the usual racing game lifespan. As ImaRobot, I and others have said, being able to make any car into a race car, or a good deal of them, would be an absolute boon to the potential in Gran Turismo.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

...Hmm, dunno if anyone mentioned this before but how about multiple Race Mod possibilities? Like, buy a... say, a Supra (hopefully a Premium by the time GT7 hits) and take it to GT Auto or wherever.

In the menu, depending on how much you are willing to shell out, two or three different mods for it are available.
One's for a full on D1 spec, another for a JGTC and another for a GT3 or some such.

Apply this across most of the popular cars - wouldn't this solve a lot of headaches?

Just a thought.

It'd solve a lot of headaches, but it essentially requires PD to then model four versions of a car. They've only modelled a mkIV Supra to 1997 JGTC Specs over the entire PS3 lifespan, so there's still the road car, plus any other hypothetical treatments the car could receive.

It also raises some issues when it comes to which years of a series they'd choose to model these generic race mods after. The smart money would be on whichever year is best-represented by the actual racing cars already, but there'd need to be a line drawn somewhere The 1997 JGTC car is far different from the 2003 WoodOne, nevermind vehicles like the 2009 cars, or the HSV010. At any rate, the race mods would add a massive amount of work to a team that already seems to have trouble matching the content creation levels of their competition, and have a lot of gaps in the modern side of their garage.

As much as I loved the Racing Modifications in GT's 1 and 2 – I'm not understating that, they were a huge part of what got me hooked on GT at every other racing game's expense – I just don't think they're reasonable to do in the era of six-man-month car models. There's too much to do to transform something like an ND Miata into a SuperGT GT300 challenger.

As ImaRobot, I and others have said, being able to make any car into a race car, or a good deal of them, would be an absolute boon to the potential in Gran Turismo.

@ImaRobot said - accurately - that road cars given the racing treatment in Forza's tuning garage typically can't hang with the purpose-built stuff. I'm not sure how that gets turned into what you're suggesting it is...

It definitely doesn't work in the higher tiers, and that's true of both games. The best approach, IMO, is to just accept that, and for players to design leagues based on either the purpose-built stuff, or the be-winged road cars. Mixing them almost always gives the advantage to the racers.

 

[Tornado]

@ImaRobot said - accurately - that road cars given the racing treatment in Forza's tuning garage typically can't hang with the purpose-built stuff.

I'd say that is the fault of how inconsistent aerodynamic mods are treated in both titles more than a problem with the idea itself though. Certainly, making a Super GT car out of a production GT-R is a hopeless gesture, but when (as an example) you can't even make an F355 handle as well as an F355 Challenge simply because the latter comes with aerodynamics out of the box...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'd say that is the fault of how inconsistent aerodynamic mods are treated in both titles more than a problem with the idea itself though. Certainly, making a Super GT car out of a production GT-R is a hopeless gesture, but when (as an example) you can't even make an F355 handle as well as an F355 Challenge simply because the latter comes with aerodynamics out of the box...

That's a fair point (and the F355 is a great example, one I've tried to do personally).

I don't think it's a stretch to say things are just vastly more complicated now. There are so many racing series that it'd be a mountain of work to apply Race Mods capable of conforming to different series' standards. GT1 and GT2's R Mods were so successful because while they didn't outright match existing classes, numerous cars did end up being roughly competitive against one another post-mod. PD essentially made their own classes, but I'm not sure people would want that now as much as they did then.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

Bring in more Road cars...then add "race-mod" option, just like back in GT5, GT2, and GT1. Problem solved.....or is it?

I believe that is the solution to everything really. I have always wished Gran Turismo would offer mostly road cars and before some of you have a heart attack, let me explain.

Instead of having a fleet of NASCAR (insert your racing league here) racers, just offer all the straight from the factory sedan and offer the Stock Car conversion in GT Auto. Have all of the liveries in GT6 NASCAR available for use after you to the "Race Mod" or allow the user to simply create their own.

Of course, if you just want a make a 800 HP highly modified grocery getter, you should be allowed to do that too.

The preset cars of GT and FM need to go. Let me decide what I want to do with each them.

 

[JadeRaven]

As far as roadcars, there aren't a ton of new cars they'd have to add to keep GT7 up to date. Most manufacturers have two or three new, relevant sportscars. Some don't have any. Some have multiple trim levels of the same car which can essentially be one development car that is tweaked.

I suppose if they added a new substantial manufacturer (i.e., porsche) that could be many, many cars. Or if they decided to expand Ferrari's historical offerings, that would likewise be a pretty big number.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

As far as roadcars, there aren't a ton of new cars they'd have to add to keep GT7 up to date. Most manufacturers have two or three new, relevant sportscars. Some don't have any. Some have multiple trim levels of the same car which can essentially be one development car that is tweaked.

Two or three new, relevant sports cars... if PD was up to date on their offerings for GT6, and that's ignoring the more pedestrian offerings the company might have (which has long been a talking point for the GT series: the "normal" cars). As just one example: BMW's modern offerings amount to the M4. The rest of the M offerings aren't found, unless we go back a generation to the E92 and E60. Then there's the 1-series M Coupe, which has always seemed like a strange omission to me considering the 135i is in. Perhaps the replacement, the 2-series, could be added. There's no road-going version of the current Z4, either.

Come to think of it, a lot of the German marques suffer: Audi didn't get a single road car in the move to GT6, so their newest offering is the '09 R8 V10, with no S or RS models from the last 7 years. Mercedes had that odd Red Bull blog snafu, where the E and A AMG products were mentioned for inclusion, but then removed. They too didn't receive a single road car for GT6. Not a single instance of their 5.5L turbo V8 in any of the many vehicles it's gone in, and it's now been replaced by the 4.0L in the new C and AMG GT. VW arguably got the best treatment, though not for GT6 either; they got the Scirocco and Golf R as DLC near the end of GT5's run, but it gives them a little more modern representation.

Ferrari has updated their entire lineup since GT5 - as it's another make that didn't see any newer models added for GT6. The California would be the easiest one to update, what with the new T spec, and the 458 Italia is only just bowing out now for the 488 GTB, but they're still missing a huge swath of the V12 lineup. Lambo really got some of the best representation in this game.

I suppose if they added a new substantial manufacturer (i.e., porsche) that could be many, many cars. Or if they decided to expand Ferrari's historical offerings, that would likewise be a pretty big number.

Or Ford's, really. Because of PD's reliance on Standards, most of the Japanese companies are represented pretty well in the historic front. But venturing off the island, a lot of companies are missing a lot of big names from their past.

Tying this all to the topic: I'd love to see PD plug these gaps over bringing in more race cars. It seems like a safer bet: I'd imagine those more hardcore sim-racing fans that flock to race cars (and PC sims) won't be won over as easily with a few new race car additions as the general casual gamers will be won over by an epic road car list.

 

[JKgo]

@SlipZtrEm
Would you mind sharing your thoughts on something that's been bugging me regarding how PDI chooses what cars goes into their games:
I was always under the impression many of the cars included in GT series so far were biased towards what was/is available in Japanese domestic market, seeing that many prominent "sports" or "top" trim models (such as AMG Mercs you mention) fail to make the GT roster. I heard through some motoring mags that quite a handful of those are not imported into Japan because of various regulations and some such.

The naming of Ferrari 430 got me thinking this way, as GT5's description of this particular model mentioned in passing it's called 430 in the game as that's how it is known in Japan, owing to the fact that F430 is trademarked by someone other than Ferrari there.

 

[Tenacious D]

GT1 and GT2's R Mods were so successful because while they didn't outright match existing classes, numerous cars did end up being roughly competitive against one another post-mod. PD essentially made their own classes, but I'm not sure people would want that now as much as they did then.

I don't know about that. Back when Forza had a much more open online system, there were lots of people who created racing machines out of street cars and practically lived online, racing their favorite rides in various classes. I believe Forza 6 is going back in this direction, because there has been a lot of complaining about it on the boards previously.

We'll just have to see what Kaz delivers in GT7, but I'm hoping they go this direction.

 

[ImaRobot]

I don't know about that. Back when Forza had a much more open online system, there were lots of people who created racing machines out of street cars and practically lived online, racing their favorite rides in various classes. I believe Forza 6 is going back in this direction, because there has been a lot of complaining about it on the boards previously.

I'm a little confused about this, when did it stop? This is all that Forza has been while playing online. GT for that matter as well.

 

[Tenacious D]

@ImaRobot, yeah, that's true, I'm just waking up. Still. Plus, I didn't want to get into a side discussion of "they aren't really race cars."

In any case, I'm with you on wanting all this and a bucket of livery paint. 👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I don't know about that. Back when Forza had a much more open online system, there were lots of people who created racing machines out of street cars and practically lived online, racing their favorite rides in various classes. I believe Forza 6 is going back in this direction, because there has been a lot of complaining about it on the boards previously.

We'll just have to see what Kaz delivers in GT7, but I'm hoping they go this direction.

I think we're talking about very similar things. Forza's online system is already incredibly open - I stick to the C500 hoppers a lot, and there's all manner of cars that can win races in that class - but the reason those classes are so full of modified street cars is a combination of there being no real race cars in the lower ranks, and even if they are, they don't have such an in-built performance advantage. Up in the racing classes, it's nearly impossible to get a modified road car to go toe-to-toe with a GT3-class car.

GT and Forza are almost the same in that sense right now; chucking a wing on the back of a car in GT isn't all too different from adding the default FM wings/splitters to cars. Race Mods were one step further, since they modified things like the car's track/width, something you can't really do in either game currently. They were, quite literally, entirely different cars to their road counterparts. The same is true for GT5/6's Race Mods (or Touring/Race Cars, whatever they got renamed to in GT6): you could try and build a normal road-going R32 to the Touring Car's specs, but I'd bet it wouldn't be able to match its performance.

Now, I'm fine with the current approach that GT/FM take with road cars; it's very grass-roots, and I feel like it's representative of the average track day. Purpose-built machines like the Touring Cars, or the old R Mods, would be very cool, but it means a massive increase in workload for PD for each car they'd want to target for these things, and I personally think that time could be better used creating Premium counterparts of outdated Standards, or plugging gaps in their existing lineup.

Having a livery editor would solve a lot of issues too, since we'd be able to populate a GT3-class race, or something similar, very easily on our own. That's also why I'd prefer they focus on road cars, come to think of it.

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't think it would be all that big a workload to either mod up a bunch of race cars, or provide Race Mod for a number of street cars. Certainly not six months work per car. In any case, it looks like we have plenty of time to speculate about it, because GT7 has yet to be so much as teased with a trailer or video blurb.

 

[05XR8]

Livery editor works fine if it's available to be applied to Standard cars. The Nissan 1600 (510), '71 Z, Skylines from any year, pony cars, etc. All that is missing, are the details as described in this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...r-roll-cage-wider-tire-width-and-more.316575/

GT5 had a few surprises that I can not underatand why they were left undone in GT6. Depending on wheel choice, I could make my '71 Mustang look lile a T/A with balloon tyres or a modern Foose inspired car with low profile BBS wheels(I even found the Stratus White from the AM Vantage had a glitch that made a car with white stripes, have ghost stripes when the paint chip is applied). Some cars would have raised lettered tyres depending on wheel style chosen. I don't know how much effort that took but, they put more effort in rear wings than any other options.

 

[GTAndy36]

Road cars. Agree with @SlipZtrEm a 75/25 split would be a very good thing. Back to the good ol' days.

However, the actual roster will need a good sort out. A good even split of modern (really modern Kaz, not 10 years "modern") and classics from decades before. Also a good split across all continents. Plus they need to consider the historical significance of some cars that deserve to be in the game on those facts alone.

It's all well and good shouting from the rooftops specific cars we'd all like. That's not really the best way to go about sorting a proper roster.

 

[Achilles]

Personally I like to recreate Real life racing series'. The main thing I would like to see is the ability to remove the current paint job and paint the car and number it. This would benefit racing series in the game hugely. From my time in Forza 4 and forza 5, we were able to erase the current race car livery and completely customize the car paint jobs to the point were we could run replica cars of the cars in any given series.. The fact that in GT6 you can't paint the Team based race cars really hinders trying to have a series with multiples of the same car and not having to have the exact same paint scheme/number. Very irritating..

Also, I would take 1 Spec Racing series built Miata and 1 road going Miata over 10 different trim levels of said road going Miata...

 

[05XR8]

This is a good argument for wanting more road cars.

 

[RedStradale]

Hopefully Polyphony and Evolution Studios share assets for vehicles. if not the models themselves, at least the data they recorded. Having a similar road car line up in gt7 would be amazing