Motorsport - how to fix it...

[homeforsummer]

Motorsport is in a right old mess. Rallying, touring cars, and F1 being the main victims. Obviously I'm speaking mainly on series that I'm aware of. Maybe following my post, those of you from Australia or the USA can comment on V8 Supercars, or NASCAR/CART/IRL, for example.

As a big motorsport fan, it's unfortunate watching the series I enjoy struggling as badly as some of them are, but from a position where I'm not currently involved in motorsport, it's also easy to take a step back and let your imagination run wild on how we could "fix" motorsport. That is what this thread is about.

Firstly, an apology if I'm treading on toes with the subject matter, but given that most of the 2009 seasons haven't started yet, it's a good way of working up debate on the different formulae.

----- RALLYING -----

The World Rally Championship seems to be in a right old mess. Thanks to the "current economic climate", we lost both Suzuki and Subaru at the end of last year, so the current WRC is looking very pastey indeed, pretty much saved by the smaller classes and a select few larger manufacturers. This is a depressingly poor shadow to how the series was for virtually its whole history, when a large number of manufacturers have been able to compete and millions of spectators have witnessed thousands of amazing drivers in hundreds of amazing cars.

I think part of the WRC's downfall was the tragic loss of both Richard Burns and Colin McRae, which certainly took much of the interest out for British fans, and when Tommi Makinen left the sport we again lost one of the most talented drivers the rallying world has seen. Sebastien Loeb is now the sport's star, but as with other incredibly talented racers such as Michael Schumacher or Valentino Rossi, the sport suffers unless there is someone there to give them a run for their money - for Schuey it was Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen... for Rossi it's been Sete Gibernau (briefly), Nicky Hayden and Casey Stoner more recently. Loeb has nobody who comes even close, and just as the run of Schuey championship victories quickly got dull, so Loeb's titles have become "the norm". And "the norm" turns fans away. "The norm" is boring.

Expense turns the manufacturers away. So what we have now are manufacturers who can't afford it effectively removing competition from a series that desperately needs it, so the fans are getting bored too. We need to bring back the competition and cut the expense, so I have a suggestion.

Scrap all-wheel drive. Totally. Only a few manufacturers make performance AWDs for the road (Subaru and Mitsubishi, and VAG who don't really compete), so keeping this layout means that the current rules necessitate bespoke cars. If you get rid of AWD, then manufacturers don't need to spend vast amounts of money developing AWD race cars. The series can then use heavily modified road cars instead, rather than starting with a bare shell and adding bespoke parts. Think about it - this opens up the door to so many more manufacturers - BMW can enter a 1-series, Porsche could give us a Cayman, Ford can use a Focus RS, Honda can give us a Type R, MINI can field a giant-killing Cooper S like the good old days... with current technology, I doubt there'd be too much of an advantage/disadvantage whether a manufacturer went with front wheel drive, or front-rear, or mid-rear - and this even without resorting to expensive, fancy-pants technology. It would all be down to chassis balance, weight, traction and a great engine. This means a manufacturer with a great car could be in with a chance, however that car was driven or whatever body shape it had, sedan, hatch, coupe, whatever. More importantly, it would be down to driving skill. Some drivers might be searing in a hot hatch, and others brilliant with a larger engine and a mid-engined layout.

And it would be spectacular for spectators! BMWs going sideways like old Mk2 Escorts used to, drivers on the ragged edge, the wail of a flat-6 Porsche, or the MINI, resplendant in red and white, in huge four wheel drifts, engine bouncing off the limiter. And because they would essentially be road cars, albeit more specialised (and more spectacular than Group N), it would be so much cheaper for makers to enter. Got a performande model? Be my guest. Privateers could join in the fun too, even choosing who they get to tune their particular make. Do you take your BMW to the //Motorsports division, or do you take it to AC Schnitzer to see if they can do a better job?

I'm pretty sure spectators would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. After all, a car flying past only a few meters away is much the same as any other. As long as it's loud, quick and sideways, that does for most people. And I'm pretty sure the drivers would enjoy it too.

----------​

That's my bit for now. Bear with me, I shall add Touring cars and F1 soon. And a notice for the mods: please refrain from moving this into the rallying section, as eventually (hopefully) it will cover opinions on many more forms of motorsport 👍

So, thoughts on my ideas so far? Any other motorsports that you'd have a go with?

 

[Alex.]

And you wonder why you got voted best new member?

I'll post a constructive reply tommorow, parents asleep, loud typing = not cool

 

[TheBigMan045]

But isnt that what the S2000 rules are about? Here in NZ we kind of have the same thing with Kiwi 2 which are 2wd cars but with more liberal rules with Civic Type Rs, Honda Jazz/Fits with type R motors and a Nissan Micra with a SR20 non turbo sitting between the front struts,

on the other hand V8 Supercars are still doing well they've had some knocks with Ford pulling sponsorship to all but two teams same with Holden, trying have parity between manufactures whilst not turning the series into a NASCAR type championship (brand loyalty is still a big part of the allure), this season should be another great racing season with a new tyre coming on at winton (not sure if its round 3 or not) and (hopefully, still unconfirmed) international stars driving the full season.

The NZV8 Series on the other hand is becoming Formula Falcon with the amount of ford drivers in the top 10, with one or two shining lights for the Commodores, Andy Booth and Paul Manuell (both former champions) struggling with parity issues, you know it gets bad when in an after race interview one of the two, Paul Manuell had new tyres but still couldnt keep up with the fords with old tyres and its not just handling either its also power although the engines are dynoed and are the same the fords get peak torque sooner in the rev range and after 3 seasons of trying to get MotorsportNZ to listen nothing has been done about it, another bad thing for the catorgory is reverse grids, it ends up being a smashfest with 30+ cars on the track at the same time with the faster guys from the back, apart from those the racing is close (between the fords) no one driver dominates and there is always surprises in the field

 

[homeforsummer]

Sounds like the V8 series are sort of suffering from only having two manufacturers. See, if that series was cheaper and more road-car biased, you could get BMW 5-series V8s, or Jaguar XF V8s and all sorts competing.

Re: the Super 2000 regs, the cars are still pretty much purpose built, and they're also - let's face it - pretty boring. Normal road cars, hatchbacks tarted up a little to a set of regulations. With my idea, the variety of cars will be much greater and more low-tech, but still quick enough to be entertaining.

 

[TheBigMan045]

But if more manufactures jumped in the series would lose part of its allure to the fans, and the fans pay the bills of the teams, and its been part of the landscape for so long, its been tried before with toyota and mitsubishi but didnt work and if it was more road based the Holdens would run off into the distance (6.2l LS2 V 5.4 for the ford), as well as that the fords are more of a grand tourer rather than the Road Racer Holdens and if there was a Production based ruling, The top holden teams would use the W427 road car base. The NZV8s are based off road car shells and have only around 420hp at the most

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Well, the S2000 rules will take effect from next season, and that means no Loeb aswell, since he´s stated that he won´t run with those rules.
TBH, what´s wrong with the S2000 sets? IRC (Intercontinental Rally Challange) has some nice racing going on IMO.

F1 will be either very entertaining or very boring with their new rules, so saying it´s bleeding is moot. Honda have dropped out, but the team will be at Melbourne AFAIK.

WTCC I wouldn´t know about. Ever since Alfa Romeo dropped out it´s been kind of bland IMO, allthough they do offer some close races from time to time. But they do need more manufacturers in there.

From what I can understand there seems to be more or less very little wrong with the motorsportworld, even if some of the manufacturers (read: Audi) are more than cautious. Some have pulled their efforts ofcourse, and sadly the WRC seems to bleed the most.

 

[mafia_boy]

I had this similar debate at home with a mate. Motorsport for the most part has been made too expensive for the common man to get his foot into motorsport the way he could 30-40yrs ago. Millions of dollars are needed a year just to stay in the top echelons of the sport, let alone compete for the championships and that's why huge sponsorship deals are needed and it's become a vicious circle in this economic climate. They need to make it a bit cheaper and less prohibitive for more people to enter motorsport.

If they implemented a form of salary cap when it comes to building the cars and running them over a season then you might get somewhere with more privateers being able to compete with the big boys.

V8 Supercars has become like NASCAR, it's too bland compared to the good old days of Group A/Group C racing on the circuit, where many manufacturers went at it hammer & tong from Ford to Nissan to Jaguar to BMW. WRC has become a 2 car sport between the C4 & Focus. The S2000 rules will make it a bit cheaper but still too much unless you own your own workshop (like TRD's Neal Bates does in Canberra with his self-built ARC championship winning S2000 Corolla's).

One of the best forms of motorsport which should get more exposure is the GT Production racing series. Factory cars racing against eachother. The GT Production series had been one of our best for years, with the big V8 HSV's doing battle against Evo's, STi's, BMW 335i's and the such, and multiple classes so the smaller cars (like Astra's and Swift's) raced eachother too. It was a case of run what you brung to the track.

 

[homeforsummer]

Well, the S2000 rules will take effect from next season, and that means no Loeb aswell, since he´s stated that he won´t run with those rules.
TBH, what´s wrong with the S2000 sets? IRC (Intercontinental Rally Challange) has some nice racing going on IMO.

F1 will be either very entertaining or very boring with their new rules, so saying it´s bleeding is moot. Honda have dropped out, but the team will be at Melbourne AFAIK.

WTCC I wouldn´t know about. Ever since Alfa Romeo dropped out it´s been kind of bland IMO, allthough they do offer some close races from time to time. But they do need more manufacturers in there.

From what I can understand there seems to be more or less very little wrong with the motorsportworld, even if some of the manufacturers (read: Audi) are more than cautious. Some have pulled their efforts ofcourse, and sadly the WRC seems to bleed the most.

As mafia_boy mentions in his post, the expense is the main problem. It would be naive to think that Subaru and Suzuki are the only teams who find the sport too expensive - if S2000 doesn't work then I wouldn't be surprised to see more go. The same applies to F1. Fair enough, Honda were spending lots of money and getting nowhere, but what other team does that sound like? Another, rather large Japanese manufacturer? And small teams struggle enough in F1, let alone larger ones.

Back to rallying, part of my motivation was how uninteresting I find the current series and current cars. It also came from getting the 1995 season on DVD at Christmas, and how much more exciting these cars were to watch... I know they weren't exactly standard, but they were a whole lot more standard than the current crop. They looked more or less identical to the street models, save for the sponsorship. And they really did slide around, loads. They looked a real workout to drive. If you go further back, Group B cars looked the same. And even further back, just look at videos of Escort Mk2s on Youtube - that's what my idea would offer. Who cares if it was slower against the clock, or not the very latest in technology? Technology is just a means to an end - winning. Yet it's not the only means to that end. Driving skill, engineering and luck are also important. And you'd get all of those, still.

As for touring cars (which I will cover in similar detail to my Rallying post in #1 later on), it is beginning to suffer again. The WTCC is almost exclusively SEATs, yet the SEAT team has pulled out of my domestic series, the BTCC. The BTCC steadily improved from around 2003/4 onwards after a very shaky patch for half a decade, but with SEAT leaving it's in danger of suffering again, with only one full manufacturer team (Vauxhall) and a bunch of privateers, who won't exactly be enjoying the current economic climate, as most get their money from business ventures.

And the BTCC began to work well when they reduced the technology in the series - going from Supertouring down to BTC and then the similar Super 2000 regs to line up with the rest of Europe gave us control (smaller) wheels and tyres, gearboxes, brakes, less power, and yet the racing improved. We also got more body shapes - coupes and hatches joining saloons. Some complained, but in the 1960s there wasn't exactly a standard bodyshape (Minis versus Lotus Cortinas versus Galaxies versus Mustangs versus Jag Mk2s, etc) so I don't see why including other shapes of cars is a bad thing.

However, if there's too much standardisation in the rules, it shifts the advantage more to teams who have the money to turn a good car into an excellent one. The Honda Integra was a BTCC winner because the basic car was brilliant. The Vauxhall Vectra was a BTCC winner because the team had the money to turn an awful road car into a fantastic race car. What we need is a series that allows great road cars to all compete (as they used to) and for budget to matter less.

But I'm getting ahead of myself... I do have ideas all laid out and I shall explain them later...

 

[TheBigMan045]

Mafs does raise a good point about production car racing, we have kind of the same thing but in the main class it s only the Evos against a handful of STIs to fix this would entail allowing more manufactures to take part as the top class is only 4wd 2.0l turbos, the other classes have more difference as they are the realm of the privateer with type rs against Mazda 3MPS and the lower class is a suzuki swift one make championship with mostly young guys and some great 3 wide racing at times.

Also about the return of Group A, yes there were more makes but in the later years got too expensive to run the dominant car of the period the GTR, as it did have the weight of the commodore and ran the same tyres and brakes and was faster than the japanese teams, the best days of the group A formula were the earlier days where you had your volvos against the mustangs, the commodores, the 635csis and the awesome V12 Jags that won bathurst in 85

Hopefully the new S2000 regs will allow teams to particpate in both rallying and touring cars as with the Group A in the past, yes they will be slower ,but so what. As for Loeb leaving? It doesnt matter if a car suits you. To prove you're the best you have to make do with what you have at your disposal.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Toyota has already said they are to stay in F1 for a while, but I get the point.

OK, maybe scrap even more of the current cream of the crop cars, and go for group N in rallying? Standard cars only fitted with a rollcage, AFAIK.
I can´t agree that grp B looked standard in any way though...sure they had roadgoing counterparts, but they where only built to meet homologationrules, much like the Maserati MC12 was.

As for mixing different types of cars, I´m actually against it. I´m a huge fan of GT racing, and I´d like to keep the cars atleast somewhat separated.
If you want more standard cars in GT racing, check out FIA GT4. Then classes, and of course expenses rise, but the way I understand things, from 2010 there will be a new set of rules, where you can fairly easily upgrade a GT3 class car to GT2 or even GT1. The GT3 cars are still highly expensive, but compared to GT1 they´re basically a bargain.

As for Loebs retirement from rallying, the point was the cars (he seems to find them too slow), not his own abilities as a driver. He´s already proven himself in the Peugeuot 908, and even in an F1 car.

 

[Greycap]

OK, maybe scrap even more of the current cream of the crop cars, and go for group N in rallying? Standard cars only fitted with a rollcage, AFAIK.

Quoting myself from another thread:

One of the big problems is that for Group N you need a road car with four wheel drive and a turbocharged two litre engine. Mitsubishi and Subaru aren't the only manufacturers competitive in Group N for nothing, they have pretty much the only cars that can be used. Would it be worth getting them back if it meant losing Ford and Citroen as they don't have suitable models? I don't think so. The class is good for racing but too restrictive when it comes to the cars available. S2000 kit cars is the way to go as it enables more manufacturers to participate.

Sure, the Group n (to differentiate from the "big N") would allow a ton of cars but then again who would take a world championship with less than 2000cc NA 2WD production cars seriously?

 

[homeforsummer]

OK, maybe scrap even more of the current cream of the crop cars, and go for group N in rallying? Standard cars only fitted with a rollcage, AFAIK.

Group N is actually a little too slow and not spectacular enough for my tastes. There is quite a performance difference between WRC and Group N, and the formula I've been proposing would hopefully fit in around half way - faster and more interesting than Group N, but not as madly expensive and clinical as WRC.

Sure, the Group n (to differentiate from the "big N") would allow a ton of cars but then again who would take a world championship with less than 2000cc NA 2WD production cars seriously?

Exactly. But you wouldn't mind seeing some straight-six, rear drive, tuned BMWs right? Or maybe a Nissan Silvia? At closer to Group A than group N regs? I don't think 2wd is as much an issue as simply cars that are slower. As long as the cars look and sound fast and the drivers enjoy them, a lack of AWD is a non-issue. AWD was only introduced as a measure to increase performance. It doesn't mean that non-AWD would be slow, and if it were outlawed we'd still have quick cars, but we'd be able to have more of a variation.

 

[TheBigMan045]

But Greycap it really isnt the power of cars that make it interesting its the level of drivers (for me anyway) and the amount of manufactures involved with the numbers comes more unpredictibility as different surfaces (eg tarmac) might suit certain cars and drivers but when they go to another surface (snow for example) they might not be expected to dominate, yeah they may just be 2.0 naturally aspirated cars but they still can go quick.

If there were to be different manufactures involved you would get differnent interpretations of the rules

 

[Earth]

How to fix NASCAR

- Drop the COT and have cars that actually are different from each other and at least resemble what they claim to be. Even the bodies of the 90s would be good enough. No cookie cutter COT.

- Build original ovals like Darlington and stop building cookie cutter D shaped ovals

- Slowly weed out all the cookie cutter D shaped ovals

- Run a points paying road course race in Europe once a year, then build a superspeedway in Europe

- Reduce the schedule from 36 to 30 races. First 20 races are the regular season last 10 can be the chase.

- Make the points difference between the top 12 at the start of the chase larger.

How to fix the IRL

- Start weeding out the 1.5 mile ovals

- Start working in more road courses, like Portland and Road America

- Help Danica win more races

- Find a rival for Danica

- Attract big names to race at the Indy 500 from other motorsports

 

[Roo]

- Run a points paying road course race in Europe once a year, then build a superspeedway in Europe

We have two speedways (not superspeedways) already, one at Rockingham (UK) and the other at Lausitz (Germany). Their ovals are rarely used now; it's the road courses within them that see all the action. The trouble with holdng a NASCAR race in Europe is that there's no following for oval racing here, and it wouldn't be worth bringing 43 cars across the Atlantic for virtually no reward - all the cars are sponsered by American companies, many of which have no prescence here, and the cars themselves (Dodge Charger, Ford Fusion, Chevy Impala, Toyota Camry) are not cars that are sold in Europe. Add the cost of it all and the current problems of America's Big 3 and it's just not a vialbe option.

- Help Danica win more races

When homeforsummer said how to 'fix' motorsport, that's not quite what he ment

 

[Greycap]

Exactly. But you wouldn't mind seeing some straight-six, rear drive, tuned BMWs right? Or maybe a Nissan Silvia? At closer to Group A than group N regs? I don't think 2wd is as much an issue as simply cars that are slower. As long as the cars look and sound fast and the drivers enjoy them, a lack of AWD is a non-issue. AWD was only introduced as a measure to increase performance. It doesn't mean that non-AWD would be slow, and if it were outlawed we'd still have quick cars, but we'd be able to have more of a variation.

You're right in that Group A might be the solution, 2WD cars can certainly be fast but more power than what Group N allows is necessary. WRC level power figures, two wheel drive, still built out of a normal road car, that might do the trick.

Now when I think of it... doesn't that sound a lot like Super 2000 regulations or the late Kit Cars along the lines of the Peugeot 306 Maxi?

But Greycap it really isnt the power of cars that make it interesting its the level of drivers (for me anyway) and the amount of manufactures involved with the numbers comes more unpredictibility as different surfaces (eg tarmac) might suit certain cars and drivers but when they go to another surface (snow for example) they might not be expected to dominate, yeah they may just be 2.0 naturally aspirated cars but they still can go quick.

2000cc naturally aspirated cars can be fast. 2000cc naturally aspirated production cars struggle in doing it. Of course the best driver will win no matter what the regulations are (if the cars are equal) but I doubt there would be a huge amount of interest towards the series if the fastest cars could still be outrun by stock street Evos and Imprezas. The world's top level rally cars doing 0-100 km/h in seven seconds or so? No, just no. Those cars belong to the lower classes.

 

[Leonidae]

1.) Bring back Group B
2.) grant the teams money for creative experimentation ( rotaries, biofuels, electric cars ) and allow the manufacturers to benefit from the development at harshest possible environment
3.) sell homologation models, say, 1000-1500 of them for enthusiasts
4.) profit????

 

[Roo]

You'd spend all of point 4 on funerals from point 1.

Something I'd like to see in F1 in order to be more green is instead of KERS, ban refuelling and have a limit on how much fuel can be carried. Then let the engine & drivetrain engineers do what they like. Over time, reduce the amount of fuel allowed and then not only do you get a grid full of different cars, you also have improvements in performance ecomony.

 

[Sureboss]

I hate the idea of having shorter F1 races, it was spouted by Bernie a while ago iirc, I think the F1 format of a 300km race is about right (it is 300km, isn't it?)

As for other motorsports, barring F1 my main one is Drag Racing (duh!).

It's proving more and more popular, although the UK 08 season was hit by bad weather and Lex Joon has pulled out from this season, which is a blow. I understand that it's growing in Australia which is in relation to them getting closer and closer to the NHRA speeds. Professional or Sportsman, both are very enjoyable and this is showing in a greater awareness and increase in attendances. Much busier now at the Euro Finals than it was when I was 7-8.

 

[Roo]

I hate the idea of having shorter F1 races, it was spouted by Bernie a while ago iirc, I think the F1 format of a 300km race is about right (it is 300km, isn't it?)

Not shorter races, just a limit on fuel - each car has X amount of litres to do the 191 miles or so. (Yes, all races are about 305km, except for Monaco which is 162 miles/261 km.)

Thinking about it, I suppose we'd end up with fuel saving races - which would be dull - and championships would end up being decided on the last corner, like Dixon vs Franchitti in the 2007 IRL, which wouldn't be dull. Hmmm.

 

[seanyb505]

Racing has been riding the coat tails of yesteryear when the average guy could go see a similar version of his car racing. Thats not really the case anymore. I mean in some aspects it is, but it couldnt be further form the truth in other arenas (looking at you, NASCAR). If the media would focus on race series featuring cars they actually recognize, we might get somewhere. Let the manufacturers make racing competitive, not sanctioning bodies.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

You'd spend all of point 4 on funerals from point 1.

Something I'd like to see in F1 in order to be more green is instead of KERS, ban refuelling and have a limit on how much fuel can be carried. Then let the engine & drivetrain engineers do what they like. Over time, reduce the amount of fuel allowed and then not only do you get a grid full of different cars, you also have improvements in performance ecomony.

This just made me think of Group C, and fuellimitations don´t seem to be such a great idea IMO. I say keep KERS, allow other fuels, and other forms of hybrid engines.

 

[homeforsummer]

You're right in that Group A might be the solution, 2WD cars can certainly be fast but more power than what Group N allows is necessary. WRC level power figures, two wheel drive, still built out of a normal road car, that might do the trick.

Now when I think of it... doesn't that sound a lot like Super 2000 regulations or the late Kit Cars along the lines of the Peugeot 306 Maxi?

The first paragraph is what I'm getting at, though obviously I like my variety so if similar performance could be extracted out of all manner of cars, from hot hatches to sports cars, then we'd bring the excitement back.

Re: Super 2000 and F2 kit cars, those things are still highly developed. Let me run some figures by you, using my own personal favourite, the Renault Megane Maxi, which ran between 1997 and 2001, compared to the Megane Coupe 16v on which it was "based":

Car Maxi Coupe
BHP 270 150
Torque 258nm 200nm
Length 3952mm 3967mm
Width 1832mm 1698mm
Height 1350mm 1366mm
Weight 960kg 1210kg
Trans 7-speed seqential 5-speed manual

So you can see, the Maxi is shorter, wider, lower, vastly more powerful, much, much lighter, and has a state of the art sequential gearbox. I've also heard 0-60mph figures of between 4-5 seconds for the Maxi (compared to over 7 for the road car). Not to mention, the F2 kit cars cost well over £100k brand new, compared to the £16k ish that the road car used to cost...

Anyway, my point is that I'd expect the other F2 cars, like the 306 Maxi and others (and even the current S1600 class cars) are still very expensive to build and maintain.

 

[CAMikaze]

I hate the idea of having shorter F1 races, it was spouted by Bernie a while ago iirc, I think the F1 format of a 300km race is about right (it is 300km, isn't it?)

(Yes, all races are about 305km, except for Monaco which is 162 miles/261 km.)

For the races other than Monaco, I was thinking it was along the lines of 300km + 2 laps.

As for other motorsports, barring F1 my main one is Drag Racing (duh!).

It's proving more and more popular, although the UK 08 season was hit by bad weather and Lex Joon has pulled out from this season, which is a blow. I understand that it's growing in Australia which is in relation to them getting closer and closer to the NHRA speeds. Professional or Sportsman, both are very enjoyable and this is showing in a greater awareness and increase in attendances. Much busier now at the Euro Finals than it was when I was 7-8.

After Scott Kalitta's death at Englishtown last May, the NHRA shortened the length for the nitro burning cars to 1000' for safety reasons. They'll be doing it for the 2009 season as well. I was wondering if the nitro cars in England and Australia still go the full quarter mile?

 

[Hyst]

Kalitta's death was hardly due to the length of the strip though, wasn't it? Forgive my ignorance, I'm little more than the most casual of drag racing fans.

 

[TheBigMan045]

I know for sure that the top doorslammers run the full track in aussie and they run around high 5s to 6.05 down the strip

And about the old F2 cars these were the cars i had in mind and with a group N championship not being needed if we went back to those regs the wouldnt have to worry about stock Evos and WRXs as they wont exist anymore, they are built for the sole reason of homoagation for group A and later group N

 

[homeforsummer]

And about the old F2 cars these were the cars i had in mind and with a group N championship not being needed if we went back to those regs the wouldnt have to worry about stock Evos and WRXs as they wont exist anymore, they are built for the sole reason of homoagation for group A and later group N

I wouldn't say that, I'd expect we'd still see Evos and Imprezas forever and ever regardless of whether they had any involvement in rallying (indeed, I expect many people don't buy those cars so much for the rallying heritage any more, than just to have a really quick road car), but removing AWD would just be more of a way of allowing more manufacturers to compete without having to spend a fortune developing a winning AWD rally car.

And again, F2 was great, the cars were amazing, but it's still very expensive, even more so if you want a winning car. I wouldn't be surprised if Citroen's original switch from an F2 Xsara to a WRC Xsara in 2001 was because there wasn't much of a jump in cost between the two formulas.

 

[Leonidae]

hmm.. imagine what F2 BMW 120i could do..

 

[mafia_boy]

For the races other than Monaco, I was thinking it was along the lines of 300km + 2 laps.

After Scott Kalitta's death at Englishtown last May, the NHRA shortened the length for the nitro burning cars to 1000' for safety reasons. They'll be doing it for the 2009 season as well. I was wondering if the nitro cars in England and Australia still go the full quarter mile?

In Australia, yes we do. Our major tracks (WSID, Willowbank & Kwinana) have HUGE run-off areas that allow us to still run the full 1320ft without any worries of an E-Town repeat.

 

[Sureboss]

For the races other than Monaco, I was thinking it was along the lines of 300km + 2 laps.

After Scott Kalitta's death at Englishtown last May, the NHRA shortened the length for the nitro burning cars to 1000' for safety reasons. They'll be doing it for the 2009 season as well. I was wondering if the nitro cars in England and Australia still go the full quarter mile?

I thought that was until the report was completed, which it was. I was sure I read they were putting it onto full 1/4 mile for the 2009 NHRA season. One of the European tracks ran at 1,000ft, though everyone else didn't, not sure which it was, weather affected the euro finals I normally go to. The Top fuellers at the national finals were doing full 1/4 mile. Both Funny and Dragster, as I remember a 300mph run (yes, I realise you yanks get them all the time, but given the weather last season it was nice to see one), at about 4.8 by Gary Spuffard.

http://www.njsp.org/news/pr091708.html

Report into the Kallitta crash.

From that, I think it's a fair conclusion to say that several catastrophic and unlucky events caused his death, rather than a lack of run off at the track.(Reading the report, it actually reads as though he veered off of the run off too) It is a sport that involves speeds in excess of 300mph, there will be fatalities, I noted on the speeds from the NHRA they were still hitting 300mph on the 1,000 ft runs. Such a tragic event.