Mr Latte - Question?

[RW65]

Mr Latte – Question?

Hello Mr Latte, I hope this comes across your desk sometime soon. This is my first post so please excuse my sanity should I ramble off track.

Firstly, I’d like to kindly thank all the sim-racers, especially you, Mr Latte, who have generously & painstakingly contributed to the various threads I have been following for the past few weeks, concerning the extraordinary ‘science’ for extracting the greatest-maximus, realistically believable tactile feedback experiences from racing chassis, cockpit & rigs.

Awkwardly, I do not have a chassis, cockpit or rig at the present minute, but am currently developing a chassis build for completion over the next 12 months. My estimated chassis build cost will be price equivalent to a high performance sports motorcycle, so my prime objectives are to get both my chassis build performing adequately from day one & for me to not also second guess any of my build/peripheral choices upon completion.

I consider myself a newbie in every respect to what you guys have been discussing, though my interest in PC sim-racing began with RBR in 2006 with a Force-Feed-Back Momo wheel, upgraded in time to the G25 & finally the G27, plus various strung-together plywood tables to accommodate my wheel, monitor & mouse.

Again, my sincere thanks to you all - your willingness to share your individual excursions into this magical world of tactile immersion & for also applying your synergistic, conscious energies & define your personal experiences for other, like-minded enthusiasts.

I myself, have recently received some DIY chassis plans to help guide me through my build, however, these plans will eventually undergo some heavy amendments & modifications to my own end-game designs. At this stage in time, these DIY plans are all that I have, coupled with an extremely expensive peripheral wish list!

Now, having just turned 50 years of age, I desire to re-establish my sim-racing account with a fresh DIY chassis foundation. Furthermore, with a stimulating long wish-list of high-end peripherals in my hands, this novice preparation mentality of mine has a really agreeable feel to it. I am sure that I’ve come to the right place for advice & encouragement, so please, let me begin.

Without going into too much detail for my chassis build right now, my thinking is to have four CS Platinum transducers located at each corner of the chassis floor. This moment in time, my guestimate speculations for spacing & separation of these 200mm or 8 inch transducers, from centre to centre, LHS to RHS, both front & back, will be approximately 1,000mm or 40 inches. The approximate centre to centre of the two fronts to the two rears is 1,650mm or 65 inches. Obviously, you will realise that this arrangement of transducers will be both outside & behind the racing seat, also outside & in front of the peddle set assembly.

Before I ask my first question, perhaps I can lay some context? As I plan to acquire Simvibe in the near future, I am also currently sourcing some options for a particular type of Hardwood or Tonewood for my chassis build. I am still in the early stages of this… but below I have enclosed a teaser.

“… Another important acoustic characteristic of wood is sound energy absorption which occurs in the course of vibration; this is often referred to as the damping capacity. Damping is the ability of a system to absorb energy from mechanical vibrations; this can be likened to a bell being struck, the duration of the ring-tone dying out can be long or short, clear or dull.”

Dr Jugo Ilic - “Tonewoods” – Australian Wood Review – issue 86

If anyone is interested, I will continue to report as I explore this ‘Tonewoods’ subject further, but in brief, I now recognize that there are particular varieties of wood-stock that can greatly enhance & enrich tactile emersion for those building their own DIY chassis or rigs. Regrettably, I have a feeling that these ‘Tonewoods’ will be expensive? More research is necessary.

OK, I’ve already rambled enough & this post has grown accordingly long so quickly. Please let me fast forward to my questions, which I hope, Mr Latte, you can be of assistance?

Question 1:

As I know very little about the Simvibe software & have no tactile transducer familiarity, by my having a fairly large, proposed acreage arrangement between the four transducers, do you believe this will either enhance or damage my experience with Simvibe running in Chassis mode, with the above mentioned transducers?

Precursor to Question 2:

My choice in amp are two iNuke NU1000DSP’s - although I can purchase the NU3000DSP for an extra 100 Aussie dollars each (US$75), as they are on sale locally at time of writing. The savings for each of the NU3000DSP is AU$215 or US$165 off retail. In summary, I can purchase two 3000DSP’s instead of two 1000DSP’s for an additional AU$200 or US$150. Moreover, the retail price for the iNuke NU3000DSP in Australia is $665 or US$510 – the sales price is 33% off. This resonates only too well with the spondoolies in my wallet & I’m sure it’s overkill, but my prime concern is to buy my amps only once… so,

Question 2:

I understand that I can limit the amps power with both the 1000 & 3000 & not destroy the transducer. In your experience, is this up-grade to the 3000DSP to my advantage? Are there any additional features the 3000 has over the 1000?

Question 3:

My confusion regarding Chassis mode & Extensions mode is vast. I think I grasp the nuts & bolts with Chassis mode (please correct me) as each corner transducer will “act” similar to each wheel/tyre of the race car.

Now, can I run both Simvibe’s Chassis & Extensions mode simultaneously if I purchase a third amp & two additional transducers? The placement of these can be the underside of the seat / mounted to the seat & the underside of the peddle assembly? Are these locations solely used to experience tactile engine vibrations? What other tactile experiences can be dialled in for the transducers located in these positions? Is an additional outlay of AU$1,650 or US$1,250 for the third amp & transducers a “tactile emersion game-changer” over my preliminary draft proposal build, of four CS Platinum’s, positioned at each corner, run in Chassis mode only?

In summary to Question 3, I guess that the understanding I really want to secure is this… if both Chassis & Extensions mode can run simultaneously, what is the nth degree of metamorphosis between running Chassis mode separately over Chassis & Extensions mode simultaneously? Perhaps if you were to define in layman’s terminology, the outcome of possible configuration choices of expression, they could be either;

A. A Noticeable experience?

B. Considerable experience?

C. An “Oh, My God” experience?

D. JC experience?

E. Flipping ‘A’ experience?

F. None of the above?

What are your thoughts? Thank you in advance for any further ideas & constructive criticism that you, or others, may have towards my build.

As a footnote, perhaps I should re-position both “Oh, My God” & Son of God experiences’ higher on the list than the Flipping ‘A’ experience?

Cheers & kindest regards,

RW65

Ps. Below is some additional information regarding wood-stock & tactile feedback immersion.

From the CS Install Guide;

Required Materials – Hardwood (Oak, Maple, Ash, etc., not Pine or softwoods)

Also, from the CS Install Guide Introduction page;

“… As you know, most of the sound we hear reaches our ears via airborne vibrations, like those produced by loudspeakers. However, there are four additional pathways through which we perceive acoustic energy, all of which fall into the category of tactile sound. These additional pathways include; Deep tissue & muscle mass, Skeletal Joints, Skin Sensation, Bone Conduction”

Quote of the day, Albert Einstein.

“Reality is merely an illusion – albeit a very persistent one.”

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, quite a lot to go over...
Some may help give more detail on their own experiences with Simvibe.
Will discuss different woods later, as you know hardwood's are best, like oak but many people utilise MDF as used in speaker boxes. It will not create a troublesome resonance. However today their are many specialist materials for sound deadening, isolation etc specifically in the car audio industry.

Ideally you want to maintain the tactile in the area or structure your placing it. So the less directions area the tactile can leak into the more you will sustain the effect. This can also be done by isolating the structure/platform.

Certainly I will try to give you help or guidance but really tactile immersion itself on d.i.y builds can be something of a personal adventure and of trial and error.

Also personal preference comes into it. A bit like audible bass or sub-woofers, some prefer more effect than others. Some people may use an entry level type audio device with a small sub, yet think it's amazing. Others may like it but want to experience more and get into higher end equipment for improved results.

I have seen this on several forums for those that get the "tactile experience" and the life/dimension it adds. Its a new experience to their gaming...
The initial realisation may satisfy them, they are happy with it. Others get curious for more, to which I was and became very curious in looking to extract more or improve on standard type configurations. Pushing the norm so to speak.

Most of my previous testing/experience with tactile has been done with game audio, music and movies than with Simvibe. Due to personal issues with my life seemingly entering a black hole over a year or so ago my own d.i.y build was scrapped, hardware was put in storage but my PC etc was sold on so I currently am without a gaming PC.

Personally I made plenty of mistakes with my own plans because the project no sooner had a new improved idea and hardware purchased for it. Then before it got to a stage of implementation along came another bigger better idea. I think for me the hobby was in the never ending chase for more/better as much as achieving a working build. I fell into that trap I guess.

Recently I have started building something of a test-bed again, on a much smaller scale but only with console (PS4) and audio driven based tactile for now. The reason I think is that it feels like unfinished business, still have a interest in making summit of it. Still have lots of hardware that never got properly enjoyed, so that kinda still bugs me.

Along the way I learned things but mainly just by buying different components and comparing them to each other, even together and looking to alter control their frequencies. So for me it was a self adventure as their isn't really a detailed reliable source that has done comparisons of different tactile brands/models with different wood/metal materials.



Heres a brief outline on my own views but these are mainly from personal experience or observations:

Simvibe is unique in basically extracting/controlling individual effects and only selected effects going to the tactile unit. This cannot be done in "audio based tactile". With audio it is impossible to select individual effects to utilise like can be done with "Extensions" or "Chassis Mode". This is the master stroke of the Simvibe software.

Extensions
These are the easier part. Typically they are attached to or in close proximity to the desired location. Most often will be used for specific roles or placement on pedals/shifters or a seat. I assume Simviber's are utilising these mainly for an engine, gear-change or road bump effects.

For comparison to audio based tactile "extensions" could be considered a bit like "Centre" and "LFE" channels in that they are suited for specific roles, are mono and non directional.

4 Corner Tactile
Layout of "Chassis Mode" is akin to "Surround Sound" a multichannel independent configuration for directional effects. This can represent the four wheels within a car sim.

Game Audio 4 Channel Surround
In comparison to "Chassis" game audio will utilise the front and back stereo tracks from Dolby etc decoding. Each channel will utilise the positional audio sounds/effects dependent on the game mixed for those channels. Kerbs on left should be felt on left, bangs on the right should be felt on the right. Basically "Chassis Mode" configuration is akin to "Surround Sound" or back in the day called "Quadraphonic" but using tactile rather than speakers.

Simvibe Chassis
This is a representation of each wheel (channel) but with the increased advantage of the effects "You Choose" being produced and controlled to these channels. Potentially it can produce a more effective level of detail than using audio driven tactile but to some degree this requires more effort for the user. Simvibe isn't short of options with loads of sliders to tweak and set-up. With even individual settings "profiles" per car being possible.

For immersion "Chassis Mode" is important, or relevant for those wanting to feel directional tactile. Basically achieving the sensation of feeling left/right and front/back independent effects. I like to use the "Surround Sound" analogy because people are familiar with such experience in a cinema or at home with sounds coming from specific directions/places.
Yet really it's possible to adapt a build/configuration to work well with both Simvibe and Consoles/Game Audio...

Common Issues
Achieving "Directional Tactile" effectively is when things can start getting tricky. One such issue is maintaining independent channel separation. Trying to limit channels bleeding into each other and the tactile losing its directionality becoming like one mass of vibrations.

Another is tactile positioning, it can take some effort or several tries of testing positions so that you are able to feel the effects in your seat or feet to an adequate quality. When you apply tactile to different body regions this is when it becomes more immersive to.

So metal frame cockpit builds may need plenty of rubber isolation to reduce or prevent metal pinging/rattling. Creating a wooden tactile platform to build onto and mounting a cockpit is advised. The same principle is recommended for cinema recliner chairs using a tactile platform and applying tactile on the metal frame itself which increases the effects.

Much of these factors are down to the users build, the design, the materials, the size, hardware used and preference. Additionally its not as if you can buy an off the shelf cockpit platform designed with tactile performance in mind that just is guaranteed to work well for a racing seat and pedals...

Pedal Section
The front is perhaps more prominent because our feet are very sensitive to tactile and L/R imaging effects can be applied/detected either side of the pedals.

Placement @ The Rear
Rear wheels from the "chassis" or "rear surround" channels can be harder to detect in a seat.
Think about it compared to our feet on the pedals centred between the front L/R how do you get the rear tactile to be as distinguishable and flow into a seat evenly at each side?

I believe the seat itself needs specific attention for the best immersion. The front of the seat with the sides of your thighs (also sensitive) can help your brain determine the L/R front effects. In some cockpits a user may feel tactile from the front going up into the seat.

I have tried 4x 429 underneath my seat (PS4) (current testing) with a LFE centred underneath. For the most part it works well. An issue however is that your rear (backside) lol, will not distinguish the back 2 tactile as effectively/sufficiently as the tactile units from the front.

This also happens I believe because our brain is focused by the tactile feelings of the front L/R in the more sensitive leg/thighs. I tend to find tactile from the rear is more distinguished in the lower back regions and this is the case with having 4x 429 directly under a seat. It was also the case with dual T209 on the rear sides of my previous Cobra bucket seat that tactile from the rear transmits into the back regions of the seat where we detect it better because again the sensitivity in our backs being higher.



Best Performance?
Combining or duplicating a channel with Buttkicker LFE and Clark Tactile is imho the way to go for the very best results. You get the advantages of both types/models benefits. So even with Simvibe using inuke dsp for setting individual roles (operating hz range) for the joint tactile to operate in. Some people don't see the point in inuke dsp with Simvibe because it has lots of ways of adapting the tactile it generates. What they miss however is an important factor.

Simple reason is this....
A tactile unit is limited to how fast/much movement it can generate or perform.
One unit just cannot offer the same performance as say two units. It does not matter on the source material and how it is generated.

Simvibe does not allow a user to split/control multiple tactile units with independent settings per channel like say A/B

Having control of the effects you output in Simvibe which I mentioned as it's main benefit unfortunately still is restricted when "your selected effects/settings" are combined together as a sound-card is outputting them altogether as one audio signal.

So how many different Simvibe effects with similar Hz/responses can a tactile unit adequately reproduce? Could one unit be missing or unable to generate all effects?

It therefore makes good sense to duplicate a channel output and split the tactile workload. Utilising a similar idea to a sub/sat formation. In doing this it is possible to utilise two fine tuned tactile units to their own individual performance benefits.

Quite simply:
For "deep slam" Buttkicker LFE 20-40Hz
For "detailed effects" (Clark) 40Hz-90Hz or higher

Additionally being able to place/install two units gives the user more control over the dispersion of the effects.


Much more to discuss on layout options if you want...

Dual Unit Configs
Quad Clarke T429 may not really be worth the money over purchasing quad T209.
It is a great additional expense and if utilising dual Clark/Buttkicker models together. The additional benefits of the 429's extra bass/low end performance may be lost or certainly replaced by those of the LFE Buttkicker.




My current seat:

Seat

429 429 (Leg Sides Front)
LFE
429 429 (Underside Rear)


I want to enhance the stereo directional effects even more.
Finding that a single central LFE Buttkicker underneath the 4x 429 on a seat (while producing mega deep slam) and using the .1 output detracts a bit from the stereo imaging as it over powers the independent effects in the L/R channels.


The answer?

FL FR
429 429 (Leg Sides Front)
LFE LFE
--- ---
RL RR
429 429 (Seat Back Rear)


2 Way Tactile / Role

Removing the single BK LFE that is central under the seat and using independent units.
One on each side to enforce the directional effect working in conjunction with the L/R 429.
No longer on the .1 bass output but the same front stereo channels and utilising only @ 20-40Hz for the BK LFE and @40-85Hz for the Clark 429.

Then moving the position of the rear 429 units to be more effective in the lower back region on the recliner seat area.



Follow Up
Got some ideas for you to sip on but certainly if you want to discuss or show the plans your considering implementing by all means do so. I will share and discuss further my own next configuration to be trying...

 

[RW65]

Mr Latte, thanks again for your deep insight into the area of tactile immersion & for your generous response to my cry for help. I too, believe there is still so much ground yet to be uncovered for the ‘perfect experience’.

Furthermore, as there are so many variables within this ‘formula’ of tactile immersion, such as, the type of chassis or cockpit materials being utilized, the transducer(s) ultimate positioning & also the type of transducer deployed being just a few, perhaps there is no ‘perfect experience’ - perhaps the reality of our current setup is that we already have our ‘perfect experience’ – until we deploy a new change to the chassis, or a new product is bought & then our newest or latest ‘perfect experience’ simply overlays the old?

If this is the case, then the ‘perfect experience’ happens to be not only short term, but also individualistic & SUBJECTIVE - no two sim-racers ‘perfect experiences’ can possibly be the same?

Well, enough of my babble. My truth is this. With the passing of time & with the cooperative sharing of subjective ideas, subjective concepts & subjective experiences, we can all experience something that is worthwhile, even if it is for only a short time. One of my definitive goals in life is to experience, as best as my budget will allow, what it really feels like - with sensory realism being the expressive key - to command an officially authenticated high performance race car, on a laser scanned, internationally celebrated race track, to competitively race against other aficionados - in real-time - in a country I’ve only seen on maps, - and to ultimately know that if I should make a critical blunder at high speed, I can still be home for dinner to lick my wounds over a cold brew.

Mr Latte, you have enclosed so much new information with your comeback, that I will need some time to contemplate what has been laid down. I hope you will be patient as I do have some commentary I would like to throw by you soon.

Regarding my build, although I have not yet committed anything worthwhile to paper, I have given my project so much time within my own mind, over the past months, that I too, am forever changing my build plans to accommodate my new thinking. I believe that by approaching my endeavour this way, I will prevent any unnecessary financial heartache in the future, by not rushing into by build too deeply & too quickly. Having said this, I will sketch out my current floor plan & forward it to you shortly, for your perusal. I would be most appreciative if you would review & comment.

Mr Latte, a brief question for you now, if I may. I have a copy & paste from your communiqué above.

Common Issues
Achieving "Directional Tactile" effectively is when things can start getting tricky. One such issue is maintaining independent channel separation. Trying to limit channels bleeding into each other and the tactile losing its directionality becoming like one mass of vibrations.

My response to this occurrence of ‘bleeding into each other’ is a consequence of having a reduced number of transducers & then asking this reduced number of transducers to perform too many tasks? The transducer is willing to apply itself to many multiple tasks, but the end-result is that the receiver or sim-racer is unable to discern one individual effect over the many other effects that are also being generated? If so, can this ‘bleeding’ be reduced or eliminated altogether by allocating a shorter list of commands or functions for the transducer to perform? Am I on the correct path? If I am, I will adopt the approach of, say, 4x429 (40Hz-90Hz) at each given corner of my chassis floor, to only perform tasks such as light suspension, road textures & bumps plus others I may not have included?

Furthermore, for the more full-bodied tactile feedback, two LFE’s (20Hz-40Hz) located at seat & peddles to handle the weighty tasks such as the engine vibrations & other heavy suspension duties such as going off track, also the thumps & smacks provided by collisions & crashes - made possible by deploying Simvibe software & 2x3000DSP plus 1x6000DSP.

Mr Latte, have I assumed the above true or have I completely misinterpreted your knowledge on Common Issues - please, help me out here!

Thanks again for the link.

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi again...
Quicker reply this time, well kinda lol.
Not sure if this covers all your queries but do hope it increases peoples interest.
I don't want to keep rambling on or repeat stuff said in other threads/posts, "There he goes again" perception.

To give a brief breakdown (all person analysis only) tactile is often used or felt in two ways.
These are not particularly "Simvibe" or "Game Audio" specific to one or any games but are typically found in car/racing sims.

Impact Effects
Impact effects are sudden, they are commonly low Hz hard hitting frequencies felt in bangs/chassis floor/rumble strips and gear changes to name a few.

Scale Effects
Scale effects are more consistent or longer lasting, these vary in frequencies and are commonly felt in tyre effects, engine based effects, speed based or wind noise effects.

Using this image to help illustrate.
Impact effects resemble the water drop, the initial impact hits the surface hard causing a reaction.

Scale effects resemble the ripples they continue outwards like waves having different sizes and trail off.

This is why personally I have the view that duplicating an output and dividing the "contained tactile" into two septate outputs for individual low end and detailed tactile is better for several reasons covered earlier.

Take note though that "Scale Effects" as example are not just limited to mid or higher frequencies. An idle engine can be a continuous mix of very low frequencies.


Specifications
Paper specs are often manipulated in the sense that they do not always paint a true picture.
Many tactile seem to list similar frequency responses but as I've stated several times on these forums that my own biggest "eye opener" regards tactile came with how Buttkickers fullsize LFE performs.

While many people will spend hundreds of £/$ on other hardware it seems that as yet very few have "upgraded" their tactile to include the LFE. Partially I believe due to its requirement of excessive amplification and that well its just another tactile unit doing the same thing. Wrong perception, don't focus on what it does but how well it does it

*Good but not quite good enough...
Recent testing build, quad Clark T429 connected to outer metal seat frame.
Central Buttkicker LFE attached to 32mm chrome fittings for fixed seat base.


The LFE however is a true game changer in tactile terms. Until someone experiences one of these operating around 1000 watts+ they are NOT getting the full impression or realism proper tactile immersion can have. (works well even on inuke DSP 3000 @ 3qtr volume)

Producing 10x the depth of immersion effect of the Mini LFE that SimXperience use for Simvibe and their cockpits. Really is essential for those looking true high performance added to your entertainment or sims tactile experience.

*Not just the low-bangs are enhanced, they add so much more convincing depth of effect to engines as well. Even some of GT6 engines can feel pretty amazing with one of these to a level of effect other tactile just cannot produce.


Tactile Layouts...
As mentioned yes so many variable's and testing is key for anyone.

Consider implementing an easy positionable mounting application for testing, be it a wooden or metal fixing platform that can be screwed/bolted or clamped to your build.
Easy then to test different positions with tactile unit placement.

4 Corners
By all means consider such a layout, I too have in the past as it makes sense to represent each wheel/location. The T429 is not a far distance unit, it is only 150w so the amount the tactile will travel is I'd expect on most builds less than say the LFE.

I think it's best, not to just rely on 4 corner based tactile units and expect to receive 4 equal tactile responses. The reason being effects leaking into the pedals (feet sensitive) will be felt more than the rear pair going into your seat. Also depending on the design/build of your cockpit the effectiveness of the effects themselves being felt in the seat itself both front and rear may vary greatly and the tactile leaking to places you don't necessarily want or feel it.


Considerations
I would say that their are ways to implement a configuration that enables a person to change the role/channel of an installed tactile unit easily. A distribution amplifier (affordable) will enable a single output be converted into multiple channels (3-4 common). This would enable someone in testing compare things better too. Either for A/B comparisons to tactile in different locations or if you want to test multiple L/R tactile units in different places to cover say pedals,seat and even back sections. This can be done via sound-card output or an AV Reciever with PRE-OUT (5.1 / 7.1) for game audio.

Keep in mind to consider multiple units individually utilised for my preferred "Dual Role" for "Low/Detail" tactile installation method or to extend a channel to a secondary placement(s).

Bleeding
Channel bleeding for me is not so much the number of effects happening at once, while yes it is another factor covered in the "Dual Role" discussion. No this is more-so when a surface has multiple tactile channels all with their own individual effects, how do you retain imaging of these multiple effects going into a single surface/area/platform? I had this issue with previous seats connecting multiple tactile and expecting them all to just send the effects to where I wanted. My current my seat config I was finding it harder to detect the rear channels with the front ones feeling more apparent. Yet the distance, installation and wattage were identical.

The B Factor
Body sensitivity is a factor that is important and becomes apparent when you start tinkering around, hence why the front set of 429 going into my thighs/knees was more apparent rather than my hips or backside. The theory of installation of all being equal distance and identical mounting was flawed by assuming my body would detect the tactile in the same way. This isn't the case.

Feel The Force Flow
Remember the "water drop" look at tactile that it can flow like water or electric, if you can control what it flows into the distance and path it takes then you can improve the performance of it if the path/distance is shorter.

I am leaning towards taking the approach of fully immersing the body with individually set & controlled tactile for feet/seat/back regions. These are the 3 areas that we can utilise in a cockpit so rather than just position tactile where it in theory makes sense to place it look to apply the desired effects to the appropriate body regions and even duplicate them in legs/seat and feet/pedals.

Personally my view is that if you approach tackling a pedal section, seat section and back sections. While impossible to fully implement tactile bleeding if you can isolate each section as a separate platform to retain its own tactile effects then results will be better. It then allows you to determine what effects to implement into these specific sections/body regions.

Examples:

Pedals
On my own build I am looking to have L/R (front wheels) tactile going into a foot plate section. Using its own set of Clark T239 with additional effects from the dual LFE. This will enable the stereo effects of the front wheels. I want to implement hanging pedals separate from the footplate but have ENGINE ONLY effects in the pedals stems themselves. So "L/R Wheels" for my heels and "Engine" for toes. Isolating the different roles to avoid bleeding.

Wheel
Own pref but from past testing and what I recall I don't think I want tactile effects in a wheel as these can detract from FFB/Rumble effects. Besides a wheel wont enable distinguishable L/R positioning. So I would personally look to isolate a wheel deck with isolators in a build. It is a shame Wheel/Rumble can not be duplicated to a tactile shaker though.

Seat
Enhance the stereo effects (front wheels) with separate Clarke tactile to the front section of the seat (knees/thighs)
Connect a dual tracks between the seat section (Both L/R) via individual rails to pedal plate section within the build. So L/R (front wheels) effects are maintained in both sections for increased immersion. Your brain should tie in the identical effect in your individual L/R heels and thighs/knees.

Consider utilising "Dual Role" configuration with Buttkicker LFE for LOW tactile frequencies and Clarke 239 models upwards for DETAIL tactile frequencies. However instead of mono LFE units with 1 in seat and 1 in pedals (also own past idea). Possibly try having separate units to enhance the L/R stereo effects. Unsure which may be best over your idea of individual seat/pedals LFE units. I prefer the idea of L/R low end distributed between seat and pedals so low end effects are still in stereo (side dependent) rather than mono in two sections.



Back
To help get around the "bleeding" issue of multiple channels going into the seat section.
It is worth experimenting with tactile into the lower back region. This is a very sensitive area like feet so lower volumes will be required but personally believe utilising another body region with its own tactile effects and isolated platform should elevate the perception more. Again our brain will distinguish a separate effect greater in a different body part than this effect combined with multiple effects into a single surface or body region.

Subwoofer Role
My own build is looking to implement quad subwoofers to highlight the "Chassis/Surround" tactile looking to combine it with audible positioning. By matching the tactile effects and enhance them with "audible bass" from subs. I've went on about this for sometime huffing n puffing about it. A future report on this will follow as testing for me with this is to continue soon. Will 4 work well or does it get amalgamated into one large bass drone? One thing is certain tactile is not a true replacement for a subwoofer and a subwoofer is not a true replacement for a tactile unit. The two married together go perfectly hand in hand complementing each other. Do consider at least one sub to compliment your tactile.

Audible bass can help fool the brain the effect is stronger or more convincing.
Attention is needed in tuning it to compliment rather than distract from the experience.
Such can be easily tested with a sub connected to say a Left tactile channel and having only a tactile unit on the right. Go over some rumble strips to see which is more satisfying, with or without using a combined sub. Although it just may be my own pref.

More in future...

 

[RW65]

Mr Latte, thank you for another remarkable, in depth analysis & interpretation on tactile feedback. Your clarifications from private experiences are greatly appreciated & your enthusiastic support has taken my awareness of tactile sensations to new levels. Though I can’t honestly say that I understand all that you have written, my knowledge on this subject has advanced so much more from where I originally began, that I am now confronting this subject with greater confidence.

Already, from past communication, my thinking has launched towards a new configuration of semi-separation of seating from chassis floor - reinforced again by your latest post. Although too early to commit, my thinking is leaning towards both an LFE & additional 429 in my latest build draft.

As I have no previous experience with Sim Commander & Simvibe, I will acquire this software in the near future before my final chassis build. This way, I can familiarize myself with the software’s tasking features & capabilities. From this standing, I can position myself to fully utilise my own sensibilities to narrow down a short list of features or tasks desired - then dedicate this reduced ‘package’ of commands to dovetail with, yet to be finalised, final number & location of transducer deployment. In summary, although tempting to take advantage of so many exciting tactile features this software provides, ultimately, I seek a precise, authentic race car tactile feedback for posting consistent lap times with the just a few tactile features chosen for realism emersion.

On an unrelated subject (kind of), my peripheral list has changed again. My very first choice of wheel base was the TX 458 Italia with TM Leather GT Wheel add-on. This was replaced a few months back when my jaw dropped & drooled over the AccuForce Pro & then again with the Momo Mod30 add-on - if you haven’t yet seen the follow-up to the AccuForce Pro Review (April 2015), Sim Racing Garage has just posted a Direct Drive FFB Wheel System Comparison, I enclose the link.

In finishing, I note from your seat base photo that your LFE is inverted. I haven’t yet downloaded an installation guide for this product, but I’m guessing that the LFE has optional mounting choices? If so, this will significantly enhance my proposed semi-separation of seat to chassis floor, as I assumed the LFE required upright mounting?

Cheers & until next time.

 

[jswilli1]

Mr. Latte,

It has been a very long time since we lasted chatted, I have a lot to catch up on as I have been out of the tactile game for some time. I just tossed out "Project Curbside" and gutted her of all her hardware. I purchased an Alcantera Playseat so I could start enjoying Sim Racing again. Although I have not gone full tactile yet, I still have the original trustworthy ButtKicker LFE attached and enjoying it again. About a year ago I finally bought an HDMI splitter and went full on Immersed tactile. Problem was I needed a second receiver that would pass 3D as I was playing GT6 in 3D, The whole setup was nothing short of mind blowing as there was so much going on visually, aurally, and physically. I have since become interested in Project Cars and therefore bought a PC since the PS4 and the Logitech G27 are not compatible (as of now). I am running an I7 and upgraded to an NVIDIA GTX980, Im running just shy of 2K but hey it is running at 60FPS will all settings in Ultra. Not sure of my plans with the Playseat at this time but, after catching up on some of the past threads I am sure I will put my transducers back to good use!

When I moved into my new house three years ago, I bought a two story home and all the "toys" are up in the loft. Unfortunately having a full tactile chair was very difficult to isolate from the floor as it resonated down to the first floor. I used a rubber mat along with the rubber isolators and just could not tame it down. The chair when powered up drove the dog absolutely nuts as well as everyone downstairs. As you know Mr.Latte "Project Curbside" was primarily made out of wood and the TST-209's along with the Buttkicker LFE just resonated through the chair spaces just like a subwoofer box in a sense and then resonated between the floors. I tried my best to isolate that chair to keep the vibrations from passing down in the floor but was unsuccessful. So far with the Playseat I have isolated it completely using 8 of the ButtKicker Isolators and have not encountered any issues.

 

[RW65]

Hi guys - welcome jswilli1.

Finally organised myself & as promised, I enclose my first chassis floor design draft. The cockpit or steering wheel base side legs assembly will be mounted on top of the chassis floor (not to the chassis floor side edges) & securely screwed from below, through the chassis floor. In addition, I plan utilising two large ‘U’ shaped supporting steel strips (50mm / 2 inches wide) that will be screwed both to the chassis floor & insides of the wooden cockpit side legs.

Again, taking further advice from your previous post, Mr Latte, I now have a few ideas on isolating the cockpit from the chassis floor; although, aesthetics will ultimately play a significant role in my final build. I agree that minimal vibrational feedback from the tactile units to the cockpit side legs is best. Utilising a direct-drive steering system with my build, FFB immersion from the wheel will hopefully remain free from the majority of exterior tactile unit stimuli.

Mr Latte, having read one of your insights several times over (copy & pasted below) I finally understand you’re tenacity… dude, this sounds one sensational & cerebral challenging build! Was this ever fabricated or are these fresh plans? Please keep me posted.

Seat
Enhance the stereo effects (front wheels) with separate Clarke tactile to the front section of the seat (knees/thighs)
Connect a dual tracks between the seat section (Both L/R) via individual rails to pedal plate section within the build. So L/R (front wheels) effects are maintained in both sections for increased immersion. Your brain should tie in the identical effect in your individual L/R heels and thighs/knees.

Thanks for your post jswilli1… more intelligence gathering for me!

I was interested in your comments regarding 3D. I also, plan to explore this phenomenon with stage two of my build, probably in a few years when this 3D technology, integrated with sim-racing, really hits its stride. Also, your post has firmly influenced my thinking from “shall I do this, will it be OK, what if it doesn’t work, perhaps I should do this instead” to “I know what I must do for this to work correctly” concerning my planned monitor isolation setup.

Cheers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sorry for late response, just not been in much mood recently....

Hi to you again jswilli, hope you are well...


Peoples builds may be different, the users preference may also vary regarding the tactile implemented in a build so its just parts of the factors that are involved.

I would reiterate again that for a racing rig based on tactile rumble that the benefits of the TST 429 may be in the most part wasted in utilising 5 of them with 4 on the corners. Clarke tactile in acting like a speaker do produce much finer detail in tactile effects adding increased immersion. The higher frequencies with additional detail are harder to feel from a distance as they will not travel as far. This is why mine are under my seat.

The benefits/price of the 429 is warranted moreso potentially for music tactile enjoyment or indeed adding to movies. (I like to enjoy music in my seat as well tbh).

Engine revs etc are not sonically a great challenge in the range of frequencies they utilise. A Gold or indeed Silver unit is more than capable for a sim and as mentioned earlier, if you want the best performance then duplicate a channel and split it over two units. Price wise it would be possible to purchase 4x T239 & 4x LFE & inuke amplification for similar price as 4xT429.

In your layout I would assume that like I have found the "FGH" all being central could overpower and actually detract from feeling the stereo tactile (directional effects from "ABCD"). Previous personal oversight too..

As mentioned, I'm attempting soon dual LFE for L/R low directional effects to seat/pedals with parallel bars to enhance the L/R rather than be a single central unit between them. However if the results from 2 are insufficient then yes 4 could be considered in the corners.

My initial reaction is that the best advice is not to solely rely on what seems well planned or thought out tactile configurations or designs. Its easy to assume how you think something should react/operate. Consider some plans indeed as like many others I've done that in the past too. Often though it seems that in operation the reality of how or in what way it performs and your initial reactions may differ from how you presumed it should or would perform. Revelation comes from practical testing and comparisons...

Also I believe their is a difference in adding tactile to a cockpit/frame and finding suitable placement or configurations for a tactile sensation. Compared to actually building a rig specifically for tactile immersion performance. I've come across some surprises of things not being how I assumed from plans, often their is something that was not factored can be realised.

Key factors as pre mentioned for me would be buying at least 2 of the relevant tactile models, inuke dsp amplification to enable personal testing and comparisons of different units so they could be also concluded in joint or stereo configurations. This would be much wiser than going out and buying a load of T429 or other units. See for yourself with your own testing how different units perform... Then it's for the user to determine the best route forward in their own chosen tactile components and ideal potential layout.

Stereo or directional immersion is the most important bit to try and get right but hardest to implement successfully...
Certainly if involving various parts of the body to increase the effects/immersion, limiting if possible the area the tactile can disperse into, including isolation of various sections, maintaining separation from other channels/surfaces and control the direction/travel the tactile can flow to enhance where you want it. Anyone taking note of such factors will be on the right tracks...

I'm hoping to get back to doing more myself in the next few weeks as have more tubing/fittings coming. Would however feel more inspired if others were looking to go with a similar build and compare notes/findings etc...

 

[RReed43]

If I were to build a high end rig I would consider the full motion setups rather than just tactile. Don't get me wrong tactile is super. I have SimVibe operating in chassis mode driving four separate bass shakers, two on the pedals and two under the seat. The issue is not getting much separation left and right. Mounting four motion transducers at each corner of a rig would provide both separation and much greater fidelity in the actual feeling being generated.

 

[Mr Latte]

If I were to build a high end rig I would consider the full motion setups rather than just tactile. Don't get me wrong tactile is super. I have SimVibe operating in chassis mode driving four separate bass shakers, two on the pedals and two under the seat. The issue is not getting much separation left and right. Mounting four motion transducers at each corner of a rig would provide both separation and much greater fidelity in the actual feeling being generated.

Indeed few people would even consider purchasing 1 tactile unit retailing at $550 never mind a cockpit with multiple units. I agree those willing to be spending approx $2000-$3000+ on improving their cockpit experience could be classed as quite hardcore "sim racer" enthusiasts. Seems obvious they would likely see motion as providing more thrills or value in what it provides to their cockpit over tactile.

However lets put forward a different perspective for the more casual "sim gamer" than "sim racer".
Motion will bring no thrills or enjoyment to the multitude of FPS or non sim-games. Nor console games, music or multimedia experiences. From this perspective the tables are turned.

Yet a well designed 'seat-cockpit' that employs adaptable multi-channel surround tactile effects, that is compatible with sim-vibe could certainly also enhance their "sim gaming".

I believe their certainly is capacity for a self build to incorporate both gamers/racers yet be specialised enough in design to utilise much more aggressive tactile and do so more effectively than found on leading motion sim-cockpits available to buy.

 

[RW65]

Hello Mr Latte, jswilli1, RReed43,

Thank you again, guys, for your interest & support. Also for your observations, explanations & clarifications on my DIY chassis build. As you are already aware, my chassis build will accommodate some high-end racing sim peripherals & will help facilitate my craving for this sought-after tactile experience & immersion.

The racing sim peripherals are the easiest part, the tactile emersion formula not quite-so; hence my requests for assistance from veteran users like yourself, those who have already significantly smashed their bank accounts, those who are navigating the unexplored oceans, those of you who are buccaneers & swashbucklers, wandering & traversing the high crashing waves, those who possess the pirate’s spirit for guts, glory & gold… ahoy there, matey!

Seriously & respectfully, I’m not suggesting that any of you guys are seamen…

Mr Latte, in regards to the Silver & Gold over Platinum… yes, I grasp clearly your line of reasoning & expertise regarding this matter & I greatly appreciate you questioning my choice of unit, the T429… & also for your friendly concern over my sweat-toiled coin, however, I am hoping for my chassis build to be as future proof as possible… I am interested in buying only once & prepared to pay the premium… with the T429’s I hope to cover all the bases.

Furthermore, I now enjoy a broader understanding to all your previous & excellent communique, so will figure into my chassis build, multiple mounting points for both the LFE’s & Clarks. I will utilise eight (8) tactile units (not yet sure of the final ratio, perhaps some help here?) & expect to “pre-drill” a possible thirteen (13) sites to mount them. This way I can switch units around with ease, should my explorative tactile testing result in an unsatisfactory experience.

I believe it prudent to have too much power & the option to decrease or tone-down the effects of the tactile unit, than to demand more Jeremy Clarkson from a ‘lesser’ tactile unit, potentially harming the product’s reliability by running it at upper limits. I doubt that any of the Clarkes or LFE’s will suffer from this concern, but I guess you understand my rational.

I agree with your assessment on the placement of “FGH” units. This is now being addressed & I may also configure a tactile unit placement in the cockpit, more on this later. Furthermore, I am considering a reduction in the number of Simvibe effects to be used, again, more on this later.

I like your statements; “revelation comes from practical testing & comparisons” & also; “limiting if possible the area the tactile can disperse into, including isolation of various sections, maintaining separation from other channels/surfaces and control the direction/travel the tactile can flow to enhance where you want it”.

This is well-written, self-explanatory & certainly worth repeating.

A final note, are you experimenting with metal tubing exclusively or do you plan to utilize both wood & metal?


RReed43,

An interesting comment on the full motion setup. I’ve kind of followed the progression of motion since 2006 when I was Googling planet-wide for a pre-assembled stationary rig for myself. What shocked me back then were the outrageous prices for stationary rigs. I finally settled on Bob Earls’ VRC (Virtual Racing Chassis) which was well priced & suited my budget. I had it shipped Down Under & loved it. Also, Bob was a terrific guy to communicate with, really helpful.

Unfortunately, my body didn’t adapt too well to the F1 style driving position & center post. Though, the VRC was indeed well fabricated & I did have many enjoyable hours with RBR. Moreover, this was a big step-up for me, from my previous office chair (minus roller wheels) & home-made rickety MDF table top to mount G25/G27 & monitor. In fact, this is a compact chassis for the budget conscious sim-racer. Unfortunately, it just wasn’t the most comfortable driving position for me… I prefer the pedals below the seat.

On a happier note, the VRC (presently a dust collector in my garage) will soon see the light of day again. I’ll shortly be donating her, along with my G27, to a friend’s Man-Cave & he’s quite thrilled… no more thumbing the XOne game pad!

Getting back on track with motion, I have pros & cons with the cons out weighing the pros, for me anyway. Although I haven’t yet experienced a ride in a motion rig, I am sure that I would love it. But my major con is that I believe it would slow me down. In my opinion, this would be one too many distractions.

Curiously, if budget was not a problem, which type of motion simulator would you prize over others?

Mr Latte, which type of INPUT cabling for best results with the iNUKES?

Balanced XLR / Balanced ¼” TRS / Unbalanced ¼” TS

Also, can you recommend any basic reading with pictures in regards to these amps features? Nothing too heavy man, consumption for an audiophile newbie only!

Cheers

Note… I received one-third off retail price for each of the amps plus an additional AU$200 covers two more years of warranty, total of 5 years with each.

A man’s got to steal these deals without looking back – don’t you think?

END of POST.

The following specifications are taken from Jerry’s “bass shaker comparison table” at The Bass Shaker Site - thank you Jerry, appreciated!


Recommended / required amplification watts per shaker @ 4 ohms:

Buttkicker LFE – 400 to 1,500

CS Platinum – 125 to 150

CS Gold – 125 to 150

CS Silver – 75 to 100

Aura Bass Shaker - 50


Maximum peak power (short bursts only) - watts:

Buttkicker LFE – 1,500

CS Platinum – 400

CS Gold – 400

CS Silver – 350

Aura Bass Shaker – 100


RMS or average power handling - watts:

Buttkicker LFE – not provided but plenty implied!

CS Platinum – 160

CS Gold – 135

CS Silver – 100

Aura Bass Shaker - 50


High End usable frequency response - Hz:

Buttkicker LFE – 200

CS Platinum – 800

CS Gold – 800

CS Silver – 800

Aura Bass Shaker – 80


Low End usable frequency response - Hz:

Buttkicker LFE – 5

CS Platinum – 5

CS Gold – 10

CS Silver – 15

Aura Bass Shaker – 20


Peak Tactile Force (the big hits) - lb-ft:

Buttkicker LFE – 216

CS Platinum – 932

CS Gold – 378

CS Silver – 297

Aura Bass Shaker - 30


Retail price USA $:

Buttkicker LFE - 300

CS Platinum - 600

CS Gold - 400

CS Silver - 175

Aura Bass Shaker – 70

 

[Mr Latte]

Ahoy!!

Started this thread not so long ago on my return, maybe you already seen?
Want to help others, i don't have all the answers whatsoever but can relate to what ive done or experienced.
Unfortunately very few people discussing tactile much these days or just some not that bothered about it.
Lack of interest makes any point of updating/continuing the thread less worthwhile...
People can read it take the advice or choose to ignore or disagree, the thread certainly has challenges or differing opinions.

Here


Most of my own tactile tests have been on metal surfaces, Gamepod cockpit in the early days, often seat risers for bucket seat, pedal plates, yet also previously had direct to seat trials, simple office chair for basic comparisons too.

I'd personally recommend a metal cockpit frame build over wood, typically less structure required for more direct tactile possibilities. My own pref is to have metal mounted frame to a MDF/Wooden platform. Then to isolate the platform and perhaps utilise some "fatmatt" or other sound absorbent/reduction materials particularly if your not on a concrete floor.

My old build that got scrapped
Had solid timber and MDF base 90"x60" and designed to have internal subs also...

Metal/Wood/ Headscratching!
Hard to describe and could be my imagination, tactile effect could feel more direct or seem faster in metal.
Wood may absorb it more, perhaps make the surface subtly more audible or react more like a speaker.
Metal ringing shouldn't be an issue but solidly attached/mounted or isolated is advisable.


In My Early Tactile Days (notice 3 units all on a single surface / not ideal)

Then Crazy started happening with Dirt 2

Connections
TLS is what I've used most but never tried to compare with Sub harmonic frequencies.
Potentially though TLS/XLR cables are better shielded to avoid potential interference or hum.
I wouldn't go overboard on very high end cables neither for low frequencies just decent quality.

If curious try and compare two identical units on the same amp with different cables. Not convinced the difference would be substantial though.


Manufacturer Specs
Simply a wise head will understand, companies will often detail something in a way that suits best or improves how it appears. They often use different factors regards such called measurements it is hard to get true comparisons.

All Clark Units are identical size ulike Buttkicker Piston based designs.
The main difference with Clark is in the power of the magnets.
See link above as you wont generally find opened unit images on google for Clark units...
(have to break glued seal to open)


POWER Misrepresentation example:
Peak Tactile Force (the big hits) - lb-ft:

Buttkicker LFE – 216

CS Platinum – 932

I can assure you the true operating feeling is much different with the LFE producing much deeper felt force.
I'd say it feels 4x stronger at even below 700 watts on an inuke dsp 3000 (dial at 1 oclock)

Bargins Can Be Found:
Like I got some of my Clark units cheap on ebay...
Talking of which, gonna be back up to 4x LFE (2 Seat L/R & 2 Pedals L/R)
UK Official Dealer is Charging £250 each for LFE

How about 2 for less than £200?

I'm wanting to get starting a new trial/test frame within the week...
Dual sets of LFE/429 combos, but curious how dual LFE close to pedals will feel regards highlighting stereo tactile but wary they may just be too much.

 

[HoiHman]

Hi Rodney, how are you doing mate

I have a pair of BK mini LFE's SE to the back of the GS-4 for engine RPM / gearshift only.

They are awesome. The only isusue is that they make a lot noise when i turn up the volume, giving a kind of buzzing engine sound Because of this i usually have to turn them down while everybody else is the house is still sleeping

My question:

• Have you experimented with removing the foam / endstop on the mini LFE's and if so how has that effected the noise levels?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi to you Henk, enjoying that big rig of yours I hope...

I believe it was discussed at doing an alternative method to reduce the pang but do not think anyone did much about it. I have 3 Mini LFE / Mini Concert in a box somewhere still yet. Haven't used them in ages tbh probably not since around the "Foam-Gate" saga...

Mainly though cos when testing the bigger LFE knew I would only consider the Mini for perhaps a shifter and never looked at it again and then with everything that happened to my situation.

Is the issue your having with the SE foam and piston pang or possibly metal pinging of the motion seat?
To help describe, is it more like a mobile phone vibrating on a metal surface and the seat/body is amplifying the vibrations/noise?

To recap....

Original Mini LFE (rubber stopper)

SimXperience SE Vs Original

Bottom Ring?

I think more could be done regards the bottom/top ring.


If the seat is part of the issue look below for some options.
See products and materials but plenty to choose...

Here

What about a layer of silicone, pour some into a plastic cap similar size to the rubber ring BK use to create a new slightly thicker mold?

Possibly Fattmat or other stick on rubber based foilback could possibly be applied to the top/bottom internals of the Mini LFE using a hair-drier/heat gun or something to allow it to mould into the shape. Of course not cover any holes needed for ventilation.

Your skills are always usually good so believe you are more than upto the job...

 

[fatkrakr]

Hi Rodney, how are you doing mate

I have a pair of BK mini LFE's SE to the back of the GS-4 for engine RPM / gearshift only.

They are awesome. The only isusue is that they make a lot noise when i turn up the volume, giving a kind of buzzing engine sound Because of this i usually have to turn them down while everybody else is the house is still sleeping

My question:

• Have you experimented with removing the foam / endstop on the mini LFE's and if so how has that effected the noise levels?

I did a bit of experimenting with the foam back when it was being discussed. Using the gamer 2 I added the foam as it doesn't come with any inside, While it did quiet it slightly the lost effects was a lot more noticeable. Dampened the effects enough to make it not worth the benefits. So removing your foam will probably only increase the sound, but the kicker will be more responsive so you might be able to use less volume and possibly reduce a bit of noise, but my guess is not enough to make a difference or worth the effort.

 

[HoiHman]

Thanks for your insights Rodney,

To answer your question: The noise looks a lot like buzzing of a phone. The pistion is not bottoming out.

Could be it's caused by the high-end Simvibe solution LOL

Will take them appart one of these days after i'm finished with a new pedals stand for my HE-pros and installing the new second video card.

You have given me some handy advice


Thx

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for clarification....

Fix Possibilities:

• Rubber washers on both sides and around drilled holes of (Kirkey Seat)
• Nylon bolts/nuts or screw insulators as bolt contact with seat may be part of your issue.
• Sound dampening/absorbing the surface area of mounting for the Mini LFE

All that amazing hardware but still recommend adding at least 1 full size LFE with appropriate amplification. Doing your "Mega Set-up" a BIG injustice without one for proper feeling realistic engine revs.

If you love the Mini LFE (Advance too) it is a big upgrade in their abilities.

Piston/Weight relation to performance:
BK Mini LFE 6oz
BK Advance 16oz 2.5X
BK LFE 60oz 10x

For Wife

 

[HoiHman]

Yeah love the suggestion for the wife

I don't think it's the seat that resonating, but i will give it try for sure. I think that somehow modifying the BK mini LFE's will give the best result.

Will put it on the to do list.

Thanks for your suggestions, but ...

Make no mistake, when i turn the volume up, my rig has so much engine vibration that it can be become uncomfortable. The 2 mini LFE's at the back really give awesome engine vibration trough the metal GS-4, they just make a lot of noise.

Because they are on the back of the seat, they can clearly be distinguishid for the other chassis effects of simvibe chassismode from the 4 other mini LFE's

I have 2 seperate dedicated RPM simvibe zones
- 2 mini LFE's at the back of the seat
- 1 mini LFE at the shifter ( which also sends vibration through the frame)

The third transducer is the Accuforce, which has it's own engine vibration effect, that feels absolutely brilliant and makes no noise at all.

The great thing about the GS-4 is that it has almost no damping material in it, so it's a basis for awesome tactile feedback.

On my current build there is no room for an BK LFE, it's too tall. The Advance under the seat though gives a good punch too. It's dedicated to Impacts only which a maximum false clue elimination. The volume is set at max and it only kicks in which the bigger impacts, but when it does, it throws a real punch.

 

[Mr Latte]

No doubt your experience with it all is satisfying...

For the benefit of this thread may I comment that you bring up the same response as many others, that your getting plenty of tactile effects and it can even be overpowering in volume. Fully understandable friend.


Flogging a Dead Donkey?
What often seems to be disregarded when discussing this is that the fullsize LFE produces sensations in the effects not possible or felt from the others units. It isn't a volume issue but I think people look at wattages when comparing which is flawed because some assume vibrations are potentially 10x stronger than the mini's being unbearable. In truth the much higher wattages are needed for the much heavier piston of the LFE.

The easiest way I can relate to this for general description purposes for others is using the analogy of headphones with the same source and listening volume but with one set having much greater bass emphasis and detail over the other. The end result is a level and sensation of bass that is more encompassing, more satisfying and even producing effects that you do not register or hear on the other inferior set at all.

Your happy with your cockpit no doubt but as you've greatly upgraded most areas for you build overtime. I don't buy for a moment you cant fit one in . Nah your too creative as previously showcased and the same man would probably take a certain degree of pleasure in the workload and challenge required, hasn't frightened you before....

Only if you ever decide to improve or go with the LFE for low end immersion will you then realise what you were missing in tactile and cannot obtain with the units you have.

Personally though I'd possibly prefer to have two T209 over the Mini LFE on the back, they should produce more responsive and detailed effects with smoother transition in engine rev utilised Hz ranges. They operate faster than BK's too. I doubt your using high wattages on your back (sensitive) so would love to hear your thoughts if you warmed to the idea and got even 1x T209 to compare as would find it interesting with your application/build.

Will keep an eye on your thread as always.

Take care...

 

[HoiHman]

One thing is for sure a rig is never finished.

There are always ways to improve it. Eventhough i'm very satified with my current tactile solution, i will not rule out that i will make some changes in the future.

I have always wondered about the T209's and i'm surely can't rule out they will find a way on my rig, because engine tactile is my favourite tactile effect.


🤬 you MrLatte

You already made check the price and availablity of the T209's.

Have to resist though: I just bought a Gigabyte 980TI G1 Gaming en my HE-pros will arrived monday.


It has been an expensive week......


How's the noise level on the TS209's vs the Mini LFE's

 

[Mr Latte]

Well anyone just has to follow your thread to see the major progress you've made.
Great story of multi-level progress and inspiration for others.

It just depends if/when you want to take the tactile a step further, not sure if your getting really good "chassis" or directional effects to compliment your new motion? Although your clarification of "engine revs" makes me grin as I recently was just messing around with Drive Club and checking out the great engine sounds it has.

Your seat has so little insulation/materials so yes I would expect the delivery of effects in it to be quite direct. I believe the original builder of your motion seat utilised "TST 239 Clark Tactile" as an option. Perhaps he had reasons why but who knows, just assumption here...

Looking at what you've been spending lately I don't think the T209s will be much issue.
Business must be good!

Ebay, been going for a while


If anything the TST 239 Silver would be better with its more powerful magnet, it gives a bit more force over the T209 (Parts Express Special) at not much more money.

Said before but worth noting:
Buttkicker Mini LFE produce more force/impacts, their is greater inertia from the piston design but the Clark TST wont bottom/clack like them. The delivery is smoother with better timing but believe this is more inherent due to the designs of each. Remember the Mini LFE need approx 50watt to start working unlike Clark, people tend to forget this.
Generally I've experienced Clark will work better in close proximity installations like your already doing. Also you can run at lower wattage possibly making less vibration/noise within the metal but you'd still need to ensure good isolation to the floor to maintain the vibrations don't annoy the wife.

The Clarke are audible to an extent like a speaker (not that loud), this can help increase the perception of the effect but from previous usage this never annoyed me. Check with Mark sometime on his thoughts as he has a mix of both (T209) still yet on his seat and uses also with Simvibe.

 

[PetroVit78]

Hello!

I was surfing the interweb and found this thread named "Mr Latte - Question?" and thought to my self, well, yeah, I have a quite a few!

Op, I hope you don`t mind me chiming in with a few questions. First of all, I just have to say thank you to Mr Latte for excellent posts on this subject. I think you do a great job conveying knowledge that to me seems hard to put down into words in such a thorough and usefull way.

After reading your advice I am now the proud owner of an nu1000dsp amp and two tst239`s. Also I got a set of one Lepai amp with two sinus live basspumps. This will be used in a motion rig, yet to be built, in a extensions mode setup with simvibe. It will be used to compliment 2dof and I`m thinking one 239 under seat and one under pedals, with the linus basspums running the show somewhere around the lower back. Effects will be engine revs and also complimentary impact/bumps/suspensions in the seat.

I lack experience with these sort of things so my questions are pretty basic, but I hope you wont mind.

1. On the inuke 1000 dsp, what do you set the safety cut-off to to safely run the tst 239`s? RMS is 100w so am I supposed to put it at 100w? Do any of you use extra gain in the menu`s?

2. I just bought a speakon to speakon cable cut it in half, stripped the insulation and attached it from the inuke to the tst239 via a wire-clamp without soldnering. Any objections to such an solution?

3. How do I know if I`m running the shakers to hard? I can tell on a normal speaker, but not to sure as far as transducers are concerned. What do I need to pay attention to? This question belongs together with the first question in a way. I don`t want to ruin my equipment because of incompetence.

4. Currently how I experiment is having one tst239 under the seat of an ikea office chair like this: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10196596/. On the back rest I have the two linus basspumps. When testing just the tst239 in simvibe I can get a good shake going as far as engine revs are concerned (big difference from the linus basspumps as far as range through the revs is my impression). On the inuke it never show higher than two dots on the output when doing this. My problem arrives when I try to get some road bump effects and impacts. The inuke goes to red very fast and I`m having abit of trouble adjusting. I`ve tried to adjust inside the inuke in the range of 40-60 Hz to balance this out, but it always seems like when I get volume where I think the engine revs are good it goes to red when impact and bumps are going off in a desireable manner. And if I adjust so as the amp does not go to red engine revs is somewhat weak. Any pointers/good solutions for this?



Petro

 

[HoiHman]

Well anyone just has to follow your thread to see the major progress you've made.
Great story of multi-level progress and inspiration for others.

It just depends if/when you want to take the tactile a step further, not sure if your getting really good "chassis" or directional effects to compliment your new motion? Although your clarification of "engine revs" makes me grin as I recently was just messing around with Drive Club and checking out the great engine sounds it has.

Your seat has so little insulation/materials so yes I would expect the delivery of effects in it to be quite direct. I believe the original builder of your motion seat utilised "TST 239 Clark Tactile" as an option. Perhaps he had reasons why but who knows, just assumption here...

Looking at what you've been spending lately I don't think the T209s will be much issue.
Business must be good!

Ebay, been going for a while


If anything the TST 239 Silver would be better with its more powerful magnet, it gives a bit more force over the T209 (Parts Express Special) at not much more money.

Said before but worth noting:
Buttkicker Mini LFE produce more force/impacts, their is greater inertia from the piston design but the Clark TST wont bottom/clack like them. The delivery is smoother with better timing but believe this is more inherent due to the designs of each. Remember the Mini LFE need approx 50watt to start working unlike Clark, people tend to forget this.
Generally I've experienced Clark will work better in close proximity installations like your already doing. Also you can run at lower wattage possibly making less vibration/noise within the metal but you'd still need to ensure good isolation to the floor to maintain the vibrations don't annoy the wife.

The Clarke are audible to an extent like a speaker (not that loud), this can help increase the perception of the effect but from previous usage this never annoyed me. Check with Mark sometime on his thoughts as he has a mix of both (T209) still yet on his seat and uses also with Simvibe.

Thx Rodney

- So basically the Clarke TST239 is the best option for engine rev? And has a better (higher) frequency range?


I don't need it for any other effect since the Mini LFE's are doing their job for the road effects pretty good.

My rig is mounted on isolators and it's on a concrete floor. You can stand next to it and you won't feel a thing. I actually tried this once while a friend was driving and i had to touch the seat to feel what he was feeling, thinking that somehow the tactile stopped

I seriously thinking about the getting a TST239 as long as it's noise level is lower as the mini LFE's at full RPM and still gives better high frequenty feedback.

First installing the HE-Pros this week and the 980Ti Gaming G1. After that enjoying them for a couple of weeks and then taking a break from racing for two weeks ( vacation with the family )

Last year i bought a GS-4 while sitting at the swimming pool , perhaps this year the TST239

About my rig:
I'm back to tactile + G-4

The 2 acculators were starting to show wear (play) within a couple of months. Probably due to the small angle they were mounted on and the weight of the GS-4 + buttkickers. I was pretty sick of it, i send them back to SimXperience and got a full refund. Seems there IS a limit with what you can do in limited space.

Even thought of quiting simracing all together, but then came the AF and brought back the joy in simracing again.

The upside:
I race a lot when the family is sleeping. Because of the noise level of the motion that wasn't possible anymore. Now with full tactile, GS-4 and the AF the immersion is still pretty great and i'm able again to have more time in the rig during those early and late hours while everybody else is sleeping

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello!

I was surfing the interweb and found this thread named "Mr Latte - Question?" and thought to my self, well, yeah, I have a quite a few!

Op, I hope you don`t mind me chiming in with a few questions. First of all, I just have to say thank you to Mr Latte for excellent posts on this subject. I think you do a great job conveying knowledge that to me seems hard to put down into words in such a thorough and usefull way.

After reading your advice I am now the proud owner of an nu1000dsp amp and two tst239`s. Also I got a set of one Lepai amp with two sinus live basspumps. This will be used in a motion rig, yet to be built, in a extensions mode setup with simvibe. It will be used to compliment 2dof and I`m thinking one 239 under seat and one under pedals, with the linus basspums running the show somewhere around the lower back. Effects will be engine revs and also complimentary impact/bumps/suspensions in the seat.

I lack experience with these sort of things so my questions are pretty basic, but I hope you wont mind.

1. On the inuke 1000 dsp, what do you set the safety cut-off to to safely run the tst 239`s? RMS is 100w so am I supposed to put it at 100w? Do any of you use extra gain in the menu`s?

2. I just bought a speakon to speakon cable cut it in half, stripped the insulation and attached it from the inuke to the tst239 via a wire-clamp without soldnering. Any objections to such an solution?

3. How do I know if I`m running the shakers to hard? I can tell on a normal speaker, but not to sure as far as transducers are concerned. What do I need to pay attention to? This question belongs together with the first question in a way. I don`t want to ruin my equipment because of incompetence.

4. Currently how I experiment is having one tst239 under the seat of an ikea office chair like this: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10196596/. On the back rest I have the two linus basspumps. When testing just the tst239 in simvibe I can get a good shake going as far as engine revs are concerned (big difference from the linus basspumps as far as range through the revs is my impression). On the inuke it never show higher than two dots on the output when doing this. My problem arrives when I try to get some road bump effects and impacts. The inuke goes to red very fast and I`m having abit of trouble adjusting. I`ve tried to adjust inside the inuke in the range of 40-60 Hz to balance this out, but it always seems like when I get volume where I think the engine revs are good it goes to red when impact and bumps are going off in a desireable manner. And if I adjust so as the amp does not go to red engine revs is somewhat weak. Any pointers/good solutions for this?



Petro

Hi thanks for the comments, look forward to talking more on your new adventure...
Just a brief reply for now, try some of the following though.
Later, can you post an update and opinions in this thread below...

Some tips and info also here.
Tactile Thread

Yes if you set the volume it will protect to that limit.
Simvibe, best to try tuning with one effect at a time to see what effect is causing the issue. Simvibe can have a high dynamic range but think the issue should be easily resolved...

• Reduce Simvibe Output Level For "Road Bump Effect"
• iNuke db Reduction for input
• Parametric Eq (test effect at limited ranges, then reduce the db for set frequencies if still problematic)

Give above a try and let us know...

 

[Mr Latte]

Thx Rodney

- So basically the Clarke TST239 is the best option for engine rev? And has a better (higher) frequency range?


I don't need it for any other effect since the Mini LFE's are doing their job for the road effects pretty good.

My rig is mounted on isolators and it's on a concrete floor. You can stand next to it and you won't feel a thing. I actually tried this once while a friend was driving and i had to touch the seat to feel what he was feeling, thinking that somehow the tactile stopped

I seriously thinking about the getting a TST239 as long as it's noise level is lower as the mini LFE's at full RPM and still gives better high frequenty feedback.

First installing the HE-Pros this week and the 980Ti Gaming G1. After that enjoying them for a couple of weeks and then taking a break from racing for two weeks ( vacation with the family )

Last year i bought a GS-4 while sitting at the swimming pool , perhaps this year the TST239

About my rig:
I'm back to tactile + G-4

The 2 acculators were starting to show wear (play) within a couple of months. Probably due to the small angle they were mounted on and the weight of the GS-4 + buttkickers. I was pretty sick of it, i send them back to SimXperience and got a full refund. Seems there IS a limit with what you can do in limited space.

Even thought of quiting simracing all together, but then came the AF and brought back the joy in simracing again.

The upside:
I race a lot when the family is sleeping. Because of the noise level of the motion that wasn't possible anymore. Now with full tactile, GS-4 and the AF the immersion is still pretty great and i'm able again to have more time in the rig during those early and late hours while everybody else is sleeping

First thing, enjoy the vacation with family, try getting in the pool more this year!


Okay to the points...
I prefer Clark for detail, very smooth feel less on/off in their usage with improved timing...
Their easier to mount too and think you will get some benefits with them.

Concrete floor, well that makes things much easier!

Clark Tactile, shouldn't really be heard over your audio/speakers, ah are you a possible headphone user?
You will have none of the clacking/bottoming but they will produce some sound. Will they be too audible at night, hard to answer.

If noise is an issue during the wee early hours, is sound deadening for the ceiling/walls/door viable future option?
For the clark, they could (i suppose) muffled/covered with a cheap foam ipad type cover in your local Euro discount store.

You would be surprised how little, the tactile effect is felt much over 80Hz.
Try a range of 20Hz - 90Hz, this will more than cover the engine range.


Sorry to hear the motion didn't work out in the end.
The video you posted looked intense but I'd question how long before gaming with that would start to become, well a bit tiring, suppose though it depends on the users mood.

Who knows might just talk you into an inuke dsp and LFE yet, (lol)

Enjoy the hols...

 

[Mr Latte]

PetroVit78

Forgot to answer, sorry...
Block connector is fine but yes rather crude/basic.
Two more aesthetic options to consider..

Wallplate mounted to cockpit

With quality speaker wire connectors for the tactile units...

OR

XLR - SPEAKON Joiner/Coupler

 

[PetroVit78]

Hello again!

Thank you for your tips, pointers and answers to my questions Mr Latte. Along with your former posts on tactiles I think I`m now on my way! I`ve been watching guides on youtube as far as getting somewhat of a basic understanding of frequencies and eq so I can be better at utilizing the inuke. I played with one effect at a time in simvibe and discovered a bit more on how the different effects and Hz-range relate to the same gain settings and to each other. Also I`ve been driving like a drunk person trying to hit holes, cracks in the road and whatnot (this is real life driving first , then in assetto corsa) analysing what I actually feel. I`ve discovered that to me it is really important to get the small bumps effect to be sharp and direct (then they don`t need to be very "loud" in simvibe) without overpowering other effects. Small bumps is one of the effects that to me really helps build a sense of speed as their frequency and percieved "punch" increase as speed goes up.

Along with a dk2, a pagani zonda and the nordschleife I`ve been having a blast and its a BIG improvment as far as immersion is concerned. I`ve seen people asking if tactiles help you drive better. Not all might agree, but I would say that being able to feel when you are touching the rumblestripp is helpfull for your sense of car placement on the track. Many probably achieve this by paying attention to sounds, but to me this effect makes it more clear what`s going on.

I`ve now built a stand for my pedals with the tst239 under it so I now atleast have the functionality of what will be my rig. I understand I need to work on my carpenting skills so as to build something that is also asteticly pleasing as well as functional. I`m running extensions mode at the moment, but I`ve already been thinking to my self that it would be cool feeling left side curbs on the left side of my pedal base..............I get the sense this project might never be finished..

As far as simvibe is concerned: If you need somewhere to start and get your bearings this thread has been helpfull to me
http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/11302-simvibe-profile-sharing-thread/ User Sebj has a nice guide and also some simvibe profiles to check out to see for your self how people are using multiples of same effects to get a different result. You need to register to be able to download the pdfs.

Anyways, yea thats the story so far

 

[Mr Latte]

Good to hear your getting into it and making progress but see by your comments your already looking to possible additions/ideas/upgrades. Take your time and enjoy doing different things, part of the fun with tactile is finding ways to improve the sensation and end results.

Unfortunately I no longer have a gaming PC so not using Simvibe, yes it's great for what it can achieve but also has limitations too. Will cover this with some waffling...

Mr Latte Special - Dual Channel Tactile
If your looking a test to do, I'm curious to your opinion. Will you please try both a T239 and Basspump on a duplicated channel output. (3.5mm splitter) Then using the inuke dsp utilise the PEQ to give each input/tactile unit its own individual roles by splitting the Hz frequency range they each utilise.

I personally am of the opinion that tactile units work best with fewer effects or transitions in the operating frequencies. Not to overload them and loose detail. For example, lets consider how a loudspeaker may use a crossover for multiple/different drivers/tweeter. Why should we expect a single tactile unit to work wonders with multiple effects and frequencies?

To maximise performance, it is possible to split the "frequency range" of the channel/effects sharing the workload and operating frequencies with dual units. Basically giving the more competent unit the lower Hz (sub 20 - 35Hz) to operate in. Then the secondary unit (35Hz-90Hz) to only operate in. Also with two units used to provide the effects rather than one it can give more physical impact/response and regards your installation of the tactile improve displacement across the surface or target area.
You likely wont find many discussing this method as few I believe have done such but during your testing on your chair give it a go.

Simvibe Common Issue Few Will Discuss?
Simxperience highlights how it is unique in converting physics data for different effects into audible tactile. Clever software indeed. However if I am not mistaken, bottom line is that with the generated effects it combines all the Hz frequencies from the effects you select to each channel.

So while the effects themselves will often have user/individual volume output settings but with these sharing the same frequencies as others (seems logical) is part of the issue.

Perhaps some people will give you more guidance on how many effects is manageable. For instance what mix of effects work better together on the same channel? Testing in this area may be beneficial. Additionally if using possibly 2-3 effects max to a unit/channel is a felt benefit in their detail? Cleverly using a mix of extensions/chassis should give improved or greater distribution of selected effects and having your tactile working more efficiently.

This is one area of the advantages of the inuke/dsp which I continually harp on about as it can give the user much more control to your selected tactile units via hardware. If using my own idea of a Dual Channel Tactile method to split the frequency range for a single unit or duplicating an effect (with separate PEQ dsp settings) for secondary or additional placement on a cockpit.

(eg I will use L/R both in seat and in pedals but each can have its own different inuke settings)

Frequency Monitoring
Are you aware that if you utilise a method of incorporating "spectrum analyser" you can visually monitor what frequency the Simvibe effect you are testing/configuring in real-time. Lets take the small bumps you referred to, if we for the sake of illustration assume they utilise 32Hz - 38Hz. The beauty with inuke dsp PEQ is that you can enhance these exact frequencies by increasing or indeed decreasing the db range. So basically you can improve the sensation of these effects but not increasing the general volume with other combined effects.

Additionally this same functionality of the PEQ allows a user to tweak how well their tactile may operate. For instance if a set unit reacts weirdly, or you do not like the feeling/sensation of certain frequencies these can be altered to tailor to your taste how the end tactile feels. This is only possible with "individual frequency" based PEQ unlike typical EQ with fixed frequencies.

*Monitoring possible via additional laptop or potentially tablet with suitable hardware/software. Also possible with hifi based Graphic Eq but often these only offer 60Hz upwards, so not ideal.

(See Spectrum Analyser Pro software demo.)



STEREO / DIRECTIONAL EFFECTS
I've started work on my new seat frame that will enhance my previous test installation.
While not an issue for extensions or non directional effects achieving really good STEREO/DIRECTIONAL effects can be a challenge.

A problem I discovered with using a single tactile unit capable of handling the impacts/low end effects is that if it is much stronger, it can overpower and distract from the STEREO effects immersion. (eg Seat configuration L/R T429 with centred 1000w LFE)

My solution is a new frame build with individual/separated mounts for L/R that each combine their own Buttkicker LFE and T429 in (Dual Channel Role). This will hopefully maintain the STEREO effects but with the enhanced low end also now being detected to the appropriate side of the seat. I will do the same for the pedal section to produce effective STEREO tactile also in feet/pedals. (Cockpit comprising 6x Clark 4x LFE config)

Hope it helps inspire you further...
PS need to continue further discussions in the tactile thread in respect to the OP, thanks...

 

[Mr Latte]

This new layout might be promising...
Still more to do but liking it.

Individual L/R frames to maintain independence of tactile as best possible
T429 to go on side arms and connect with sides/front/rear
LFE to go underneath centred between front/rear T429

 

[HoiHman]

Goodthing you kept the cobra seat.

It looks really awesome and it will probably drill the fillings out of your teeth. LOL