Tactile Info & Buyers Guide / Comparisons / Opinions - Work In Progress

[Mr Latte]

Tactile Immersion Buyers Guide & General Comparison
Purpose of this thread is to help people make the best choices for their own wants/needs/budgets. So I will include alternatives to compare for your own analysis and go into detail with other factors, plus in-depth look at many products.

Thread will get updated regularly with so many areas needing covered but I will try to make this a useful resource...

Over the last few years I've seen several people on the forums have spent a good deal of money and time into this hobby area. Seeking to increase the immersion of their gaming, sims and cockpits. No doubt some will have a story filled of frustration, uncertainity and learned from the process in what is a confusing area.

Looking back over the years I have NOT seen ISR or other Sim news sources do a simple breakdown regards even the most popular Buttkicker Models. The Pros / Cons with comparisons to other brands options and solutions.

Particularly for console gamers using game audio but also PC Simvibe enthusiasts.
So for those starting out or seeking improvement options this thread will cover the importance of benefits with different amplifiers, make recommendations and provide some comparisons.
Basic - Extreme configurations/budgets will be highlighted..

Perhaps I'm not alone in stating that in this process it's easy to make purchase/decisions that end up being not ideal or ones we find that fall short in expectation. Usually with the result of then wanting to replace with something else. It is also a rather confusing topic and one filled with many options, pitfalls and decisions...

 

[Mr Latte]

Thread Changes / Updates July 26th

Buttkicker & Limitations / Drawbacks
While I adore the brand and products in general. Also these are the proven long established leaders in the gaming/entertainment sector. Offering superb service too and different models for different budgets/applications.

It strikes me odd Buttkicker have not tried to embrace or accommodate more the "sim market" with newer more appropriate updated amplifier packages.


Buttkicker Retail Packages
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/#

The simple route to take.
All Buttkicker models typically compromise of an amplifier and shaker unit. Some even include a basic remote control too. The problem facing many people with the current trends of multichannel tactile is that NONE of the Buttkicker amplifiers support more than one "input source". It is also regarded that the amplification on Buttkickers is outclassed by other options/products available.

Unfortunately all their amps (April 2015) are only Mono which means this requires purchasing multiple retail packages as a workaround for a Stereo or even MC-T configuration. This was probably demonstrated the most sometime ago on ISR with videos they showcased and their Simvibe review.


Go Your Own Way?
UK and Europe has limited companies specialising in well matched and suitable amp/tactile combos. "Shaker Centre" do a bit of stuff but have never it seemed tried to really embrace the market. While I have purchased from them a few times and found the service to be good. Often I find them not as competitive on certain packages or lack of stock and promote some expensive amplifier/tactile combinations.

Parts Express (USA) are probably one of the most switched companies for this market. I love their website and magazines. They supply several amp/tactile combos as packages to ease the burden and hassle. Also I know from first hand their excellent customer service and quick delivery even to UK/Europe.

Anyways I highlight this as I am aware that they probably have great business/success with i-racing and Simvibe user communities. The packages they offer always seem good value and yes some people want simplicity with items in stock ready to go at a simple click...

Later in this thread I will highlight many different packages/options available.

Tactile possibilities/configurations...

Mono = Seat or cockpit frame
Beginners starting with one unit.

Stereo = Individual felt directional effects left/right
Representing left and right wheels over kerbs etc.

Multicannel = Multichannel Tactile combining seat, pedals, shifters for individual effects
Added immersion benefits

 

[Mr Latte]

Mono Tactile
Gamer 2 Retail Package @ £155.00 (Sale)

Probably the most popular "Retail Package" and one that many people start with.
Very affordable price-point and entry level device. The amplifier is decent but more performance can be extracted from the Buttkicker Shaker with other alternatives.

The Shaker uses a 2ohm variant identical to the Mini Concert Shaker with specialised clamp.
http://www.shakercentre.co.uk/aspbite/products/products.asp?
intProductsID=3&content=buttkicker_gamer_2#3

Mono Tactile
Buttkicker Simulation Kit: £210.00

Main difference with this to the Gamer Package is that this comes with some BK rubber isolators/cables etc.

Although do consider that the hardware used is pretty much identical to the BK Gamer 2.
Compromises 1x Mini Concert 2ohm Buttkicker Shaker
http://shakercentre.co.uk/aspbite/p...sID=125&content=buttkicker_simulation_kit#125

Stereo Tactile
1x Amplifier & 2x Reckhorn Package (£295)

While probably very decent it seems overpriced for what it offers in specs.
(See below for info on Reckhorn Tactile Units)

http://shakercentre.co.uk/aspbite/p...tsID=113&content=reckhorn_home_cinema_package



Amplifier Alternatives

Seems on many forums these have been purchased, recommended by users and are very popular due to their price and availability. I would class these as "mid range" in quality terms, build and wattage. *Note some models may be mono and only power a single tactile unit.


Dayton Audio SA230
Rated Power Output: (1 % THD) 156 Watts RMS into 8 ohms, 233 Watts RMS into 4 ohms Signal to Noise Ratio: 85 dB A-weighted Input Impedance: 12K ohms Bass Boost: 25 Hz – 50 Hz Low Pass Adjustment: 80 Hz – 180 Hz
Manual

The brand does offer many types of amplifiers...
Subwoofer Amps / Full Range Plate Amps / One Box Multichannel Amps

Parts Express stock a wide range, not sure on UK/EUR authorised dealers but certainly worth considering.
https://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=dayton amplifier&sitesearch=true

SMSL Amps:
SMSL SA-98E
2 * 160W (TDA7498 amplifier) @4OHM

T Amps Info
STMicroElectronics

Look on ebay/amazon their are many models available with different wattages.
These are very affordable and seem to be quite good on performance, also really nice and compact. They seem to come with external power pack. Recommended in this thread by Andrew-Wot and thanks for him bringing them to my attention...

Several guys over @ ISR seem to be using these and their price/performance is quite remarkable.




Multi-Channel One Box (4xAmplification)

UPDATE: Look here for additional options to those below.
Models available from as little as £155

t.amp D4-500
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tamp_d4500.htm
Digital 4-channel Amplifier
4x 500W @ 4 Ohms, 4x 250W @ 8 Ohms, XLR inputs, Speakon outputs
Quiet fan, Dimensions: 19"/1U (depth: 23,4cm), Weight: 4.6kg

MANUAL
Currently looks to be one of the best spec slim multichannel amps available at a modest price.

ART SLA4 Four Channel 4x140W Power Amplifier

http://artproaudio.com/art_products/studio_amplifiers/product/sla4/
Very slim and attractive design powering 4x 140 Watts Channel @ 4 Ohms @ $439 / £415
Suitable with majority of 50W typically $50 tactile and up to the Mini LFE however has no crossover filtering.

Behringer EPQ304 Europower
http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_epq_304_europower.htm
4x 75 W / 4 Ohms, 4x 50 W @ 8 Ohms

Behringer iNUKE NU4-6000 Four Channel Power Amplifier

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU4-6000.aspx
4 Channel amplifier, 4x 860 watt @ 4 Ohms @ $350 / £272
Offers much more power than needed for most Tactile Configurations.
Listed for those wanting one box solutions. Also includes LOW FREQUENCY crossover filtering.

MANUAL


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detailed Tactile Transducer Guide

Budget Tactile Models

Dayton Pucks: @ $10 (8ohm 16ohm)
Probably one of the most basic/smallest and affordable tactile units.
Very audible little devices with limited scale or depth.

Not going to give a proper tactile experience, more of a buzz only. These could however be potentially tried/tested and used effectively with other tactile and tuned specifically for high engine revs or wind noise effects within a seat/pedals.
If anyone fancies a project in trying?

Various models in the @ £50/$50 price range
Visaton / Aura Pro / ADX / Reckhorn

Investigating into these as believe they may use a similar internal component and share very similar level of performance. ADX seems to be the newest one and probably the most striking design.

Aura Pro uses such an internal component.

*If you own any of the above please PM me.

Sine Live Bass-Pump III @ £28 (4 ohm & 8 ohm)


Buttkicker Models
Gamer / Mini LFE / Advance / LFE

All to be covered....

Buttkicker Mini LFE
Not much to say here that isn't already been said before or known.
The most popular tactile unit, offering a very good robust performance in general for the price. Sure cheaper tactile are available like the (Aura Pro / Reckhorn / ADX ) but these Mini LFE I know will outperform them.

The Mini LFE are what I would class as proper quality entry level tactile models. Do however consider/see the Clark Synthesis T209 below as serious alternative. It does have some benefits in detail/speed but less lower end slam.
Those that are curious, why not buy both yourself and do your own comparison/testing?

If budget restraints are important. I recommend to buy 1 unit and another later over buying an inferior amplifier or tactile package even if offering dual/stereo tactile units. It will be easy to add a secondary Mini LFE for Stereo effects later or purchase an extra...

An exclusive SE version is available and used by Simxperience / Simvibe
It has an included foam protection within the casing to help response and reduce piston pang
A self mod to standard Mini LFE is easily applied if desired but inuke DSP enables a workaround the issue of piston pang by limiting / avoiding sensitive frequency spikes at high wattage.

Buttkicker Mini LFE (4ohm) £95.80
http://www.thomann.de/gb/fischer_amps_buttkicker_mini_lfe.htm
Buttkicker Mini LFE SE $95
http://simxperience.com/en-us/products/simvibe/buttkickerminilfe.aspx

Clark Synthesis Models

Premium tactile brand
TST209 / TST239 Silver / TST329 Gold / TST429 Platinium /

All to be covered...

Close look comparison, buyers guide highlighting performance differences & benefits between each...

Clark Synthesis T209 (Parts Express Exclusive) @ $99
https://www.parts-express.com/clark-synthesis-tst209-tactile-transducer-bass-shaker--300-861
Originally developed for musicians and audiophiles seeking to feel musical notes.

These are very good performing alternative to Buttkicker Mini LFE.
They produce more "audible sound" in operation to Buttkickers akin to a speaker. This can increase directional perception placement on some installations. In general they offer a little less low end slam/performance to Mini LFE.

Yet they tend to produce smoother transitions of tactile/sounds with more detail in effects in mid/high frequencies common with engine revs/kerb tones. They also come with multiple mounting options giving more variation in installation options.

Personally recommended but not universally as popular to the Mini LFE product.
* Also consider other models TST 239 not much more expensive.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Published Specs & Pinch Of Salt
Be wary, paper/specs don't always represent real world performances and often different manufactures use different methods in promoting their products against each other.


Ohm Watt & Wiring Options

Importance & Effects of Isolators

Various types & sizes.

Sound Deadening & Reverberration

Mass loaded vinyl / Composit Noise Barriers / Acoustic Foam

 

[Mr Latte]

My Recommendation

"Just to clarify, I have seen some comments regards "Simvibe" usage that the DSP features are rather pointless. Personally I disagree with this as the DSP adds extra control and configuration options not possible with a standard amp. It also can be used in various ways as a tool to understand better how effects are utilising your tactile in "Simvibe".

With inuke DSP if you control the working range to set frequencies you can tweak your tactile by getting better understanding how it is operating.

I stand by my recommendation in that the features of the DSP can be advantageous, indeed also to "Simvibe" users. Therefore for those seeking the best control and potential performance it is a beneficial addition on an already good value amplifier compared to alternatives."

The choice is yours...


Personally with having spent quite a lot of money on this subject on lots of various hardware over 5 years. I believe based on such experience and learning from own mistakes, which their was many I should share to let others benefit.

So my recommendation will offer leading performance and will give the end-user much more amplification, control and enjoyment of your tactile hardware purchases for the money spent.
Do take note when comparing amplifiers, many will list similar specs but paper specs are not confirmation of "quality" amplification.


Current Benchmark For Tactile Amplification:
The amplifier is a very key decision and below is the best amplifier I have ever used regards tactile transducers/Buttkickers. Regardless if you use Game Audio or Simvibe iNuke DSP will give you more control and performance benefits.


Awareness of the benefits the iNuke DSP models provide should not be ignored or if you desire the best performance from your tactile. This range of amplifiers with it's features will be quite a remarkable addition to anyone's tactile immersion possibilities.

• Ultimate reliability through revolutionary cool-running High-Density Class-D technology with "near-zero" thermal buildup
• Ultra-efficient switch-mode power supply for noise-free audio, superior transient response and low power consumption
• High-performance DSP and 24-bit/96 kHz converters deliver ultimate signal integrity and extreme dynamic range
• DSP section features sophisticated delay, crossover (3 filter types, up to 48 dB/octave), EQ (8 parametric, 2 dynamic), dynamics processing and lockable security setting
• Front panel LCD display enables setup and adjustment without PC

Starting with the NU1000 DSP it is the entry model in the series. DSP3000 & DSP6000 have more powerful amplification that have extreme amounts of power easily handling Buttkickers most demanding LFE model @ 1500 watts.

*Take note Behringer also do similar non DSP versions/models but it is the DSP you want.

Amplifier - Behringer iNuke NU1000 DSP

Combining the best amplifier range that I am aware of or have used with tactile and I've used quite alot. Seriously guys, this range offers brill features not found on other or traditional amps. Including USB connectivity and free software for controlling via PC.

Traditional amplifiers, sub amps, plate amps. I see loads of people choosing Dayton budget amps for their tactile. Okay they may not be bad but for similar money these iNuke are incredible.

If you want the most options, features, control and power available for your money. These iNuke DSP amplifiers, have low power consumption with quality CLASS D amplification producing loads of power to cope in long gaming sessions. Even a 3 year warranty for piece of mind in certain territories.

Pros:

• Combination offers best features/control/power and performance for price
• 2 x 500 W/2 Ohms, 2x 300W/4 Ohms
  
• Greater tuning over standard amps with basic crossover filter
  
• Discover what Simvibe output is doing within set frequencies
• Select / adjust your own 8 filters with "Parametric Equalisers" (The magic part)
• Allows level of fine tuning and control not available elsewhere
• Eliminate Buttkicker Piston Pang/Bottoming
• Maximise the full potential of your tactile installation
• Compatible with Buttkicker Advance & Concert Mini LFE 2ohm or 4ohm models
• Competitive Price, not much higher than purchasing twin Buttkicker Gamer package

Take Proper Control / One Of Many Unique Features:
Remote Connect Software / Info:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/iNUKE-REMOTE-CONNECT.aspx
Parametric EQ Benifits:
8 Manual Filters - Select Your Own Frequency Hz To Modify
Increase or Decrease Strength Of Each Filtered Frequency
Monitor Input/Output Levels

Much More Than Basic Crossover Controls
Set START (Hi Pass) & STOP (Low Pass) Frequency Ranges @ 1Hz steps eg 20Hz - 90Hz
Discover & Dictate How Much Your Tactile Operates In Low/Mid/High Frequency Ranges
Ideal For Testing Individual Game Effects & Tweaking Your Tactile Units Performance
Set Wattage Limit Not To Damage Your Tactile

Behringer iNuke / NU1000 DSP Amplifier (Stereo Powers 2x Tactile)

UK/Europe @ £157.75
http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_inuke_nu1000dsp_amplifier.htm

USA @ $199
https://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu1000dsp-inuke-1000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6702

Info:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU1000DSP.aspx

• PRICE Amplifier Inc 1x Mini LFE approx £255* / USA Parts Express $289.98*
• PRICE Amplifier Inc 2x Mini LFE approx £350* / USA Parts Express $379.97*

*(prices may vary not including cables/connectors or rubber isolators)


Cons:

• You may need some cables/connectors but do not cost that much and are easily available
• On-screen display is small and really the unit is much easier to operate connected to a laptop/pc
• USB no networking connectivity to phone/tablets supported
• Fan noise is loud but could be changed with Noctua etc if desired
• Better but more expensive than some options
  
• Partially plastic build/front
• Price-point competes against value oriented packages potentially offering 4 tactile units powered by inferior in series-parallel configurations

 

[Mr Latte]

EDITED Future Updates:


Adding More Control Via Hardware Options:

Equalisers * Graphic Equalisers
Visual Analysers

How, where, when can they be used or needed?
Their are hardware options available to allow simple control but more personalisation to your taste, your tactile hardware installation design and components.

It just depends how much you fancy delving into it all

 

[Soulfresh_ACV]

Reckhorn

So those two Reckhorn tactile transducers are no good/better than similar priced Aurosound ones?

Mmm there's also Visaton BS130-4 ones….

 

[Mr Latte]

On the contrary the Reckhorn are good for their money, however I would not be surprised if they use OEM components that other branded similar models also have. My understanding is that it utilises a dual layer design with a smaller chassis hence the 100W rating over say Aura Pro or new ADX models rated at 50W.
Reckhorn / Aura Pro

Info:
https://www.reckhorn.net/pages/body-shaker/connection-options-for-the-bs-200.php

Indeed plenty of under £50/$50 shakers available and yes they do a decent job but they will not surpass "Buttkicker Mini LFE" for tactile strength/depth in the sub 50Hz range at all power levels.

Up to individuals to either consider to hold out for better, spend a bit more for the Mini LFE or Clark Synthesis T209 and run either with higher wattage of the inuke DSP amp.

 

[Soulfresh_ACV]

On the contrary the Reckhorn are good for their money, however I would not be surprised if they use OEM components that other branded similar models also have. My understanding is that it utilises a dual layer design with a smaller chassis hence the 100W rating over say Aura Pro or new ADX models rated at 50W.
Reckhorn / Aura Pro

Info:
https://www.reckhorn.net/pages/body-shaker/connection-options-for-the-bs-200.php

Indeed plenty of under £50/$50 shakers available and yes they do a decent job but they will not surpass "Buttkicker Mini LFE" for tactile strength/depth in the sub 50Hz range at all power levels.

I still recommend people consider to hold out for better, spend a bit more for the Mini LFE or Clark Synthesis T209 and run either with higher wattage of the inuke DSP amp.

I understand your recommendations of Mini LFE plus iNuke DSP amp. But if we're using Simvibe, do we still need an amp with low-pass or a dedicated sub woofer amp or just any standard amp with enough power to push the tactile transducers will suffice. Utilising the second sound card as per requirement of Simvibe, does it output only low end frequencies to push the transducer to replicate physics based tactile feedbacks?


As a beginner start off with these things, iNuke + Mini LFE is still out of my budget hence looking for cheapest way to start off.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi again,
Is tough, increased prices and sometimes difficulty with availability in certain regions including Australia.
PM me with links on your considerations, will do what I can to help...

*Will add best on a budget to the guide...

A crossover will limit full range frequencies, this is done to avoid mid frequencies distorting the low end output to your shakers or sub-woofer. Preference differs on each persons taste/set-up. Not totally certain on general Simvibe supported frequencies, approx upto 120Hz. Been a while I have used it myself and currently no gaming PC but it advertises a high (dB) dynamic range output which helps regards amplification.

I may be wrong but most felt frequencies in racing games seem to use the 20Hz-80Hz range. Over 80Hz closer proximity or sensitivity in say our feet/pedals is felt more. Underside of arms are also sensitive to tactile but more utilised in say a couch/armchair.

A typical crossover does not give control of what is happening within its range it just sets the range.

Simvibe has loads of options, it can feel great, recently enjoyed playing on a members rig (Carson79) which utilises multiple shakers with standard amplification/crossover combined with some traditional EQ control.

 

[rocafella1978]

@Mr Latte - i tried PM'ing you but says not possible???

I am still researching, online, offline, reading and emailing companies about this...

my questions are/ and I am sure there is no answer or at least it is a trial and error way of finding out...i am thinking of a setup:

Chassis Mode:
1x Front Left, 1x Front Right, 1x Rear Left and 1x Rear Right

Extension Mode:
1x Under seat?/ behind seat? and 1x under pedals?/ in front of pedals?

so total 6x? what are good budget/ mid range products to go with tactile transducers and amplifiers?

also here, wanted to thank @Carson79 and @Sick Cylinder for their absolutely wonderful help and support! thanks guys for helping out someone completely newbie!

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi guys, messages sorted now.
Going to continue to update this thread but think its best to keep it focused mainly on hardware...

I think it's time to have a new "Simvibe Users Thread", the original one seems to of died off.
Perhaps someone dedicated to helping will be willing to start a new one?

I'd love see that and re-ignite the interest in it.
Be good to get some of the ole gang and others discussing things, all adding their own experiences and feedback.

Fresh Cuppa?

 

[rocafella1978]

would be great if there was a dedicated thread, and also have as you put it @Mr Latte getting experiences and feedback, but also maybe, only maybe getting SimXperience to leave their feedback too? (at least so I hope!)

 

[Mr Latte]

would be great if there was a dedicated thread, and also have as you put it @Mr Latte getting experiences and feedback, but also maybe, only maybe getting SimXperience to leave their feedback too? (at least so I hope!)

Having been released now for sometime, personally I am kinda surprised that their hasn't already been a guide/users thread started beforehand? Maybe on i-racing forums, well I don't know having been away for sometime myself.

Certainly do believe, and would love see a new thread investigating the many options and giving greater understanding of the software. One driven by active users sharing discussions/experiences and utilising hardware recommendations to get the most out of it.

The idea of "User Profiles" to make things easier was good but so many factors involved and people have different sound-cards/cockpits/installations/tactile units and amplification.

 

[rocafella1978]

I absolutely agree with you, i have not found anything elsewhere just what i have found in english and german speaking forums, and you already put it, because of many variables and hardware differences there might be a certain "reserve" from the main companies involved, but nevertheless I would think now that this market is growing more and more, they would use this as marketing and advertisement to get their products out there. but then again I might be completely wrong.
I do think, a dedicated thread, where actual SimVibe/ Tacticle Transducer user videos, tutorials, experiments, profiles, pictures, setups and etc. could be posted would make sense and all the user community would surely benefit from this thread! i would love to help, almost could host such forum on my server, but don't know how to set it up and etc., but would be possible in theory if that is what it would take to start a dedicated forum/ platform just for that purpose!

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Pretty useful reference material I've found:
- Setting up SimVibe effects and profiles (still v3 so a little dated) http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/11302-simvibe-profile-sharing-thread/
- Bodyshakers guide by Total Spanish Simulator http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com/manuales/varios/Guia_Bodyshakers.pdf, it's Spanish but you can easily translate it with Google

 

[Mr Latte]

Cheers Andrew, the topic needs more in-depth discussion, the software itself while amazing in what it does. Certainly seems to lack information or some user friendliness. I'm hoping their is enough interest still in it and someone here @ GTP considering a new fresh thread on it. Looking at it in detail from a new perspective based on actual users experiences/settings and doing both software/hardware analysis presenting findings or guidelines on it. We have here on these forums some guys with tactile builds that are very accomplished and impressive installations.

GT Planet being populated by many console owners, not to mention PC sim racers.
This thread needs to appeal to "Game Audio" as well, getting the most out of "Console TACTILE Builds" shouldnt be ignored.

This includes covering the short comings involved with "Audio" to "Simvibe" but also some differences and potential benefits too.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

No problem, thanks for starting this thread. Finding answers on SimVibe and transducers setup is like hunting for unicorn.
BTW, question on iNuke, while I see the benefit of parametric EQ, I think you can lower output in Buttkickers "pang" 35-40Hz area (can you?). Isn't 300 Watt an overkill for Simvibe driven Buttkickers, SimExperience quote 150W max when used with their software. So the exact comment from Berney on iNuke NU1000
http://simxperience.com/Community/O.../g/posts/t/3/Amplifiers-and-Transducers#post3 (requires membership to view)

I can't say that I could suggest spending $1000 for two amplifiers that provide more than 5 times the needed power. Seems like overkill. I can think of a lot of ways to improve on a simulators immersion for the extra $650 spent on those amplifiers vs a single eMotiva UPA-500 5 channel.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes Andrew you can select, lower/raise (8) to any single Hz you want, increase / decrease the dB, just pick a number, lol
Different digital filters (PEQ/Butterworth etc) can also be used which alter the flatness/roll of the selected Hz your adjusting or you can totally bypass any effects.


I'm not an audio engineer in any way and cant give accurate scientific reason as to why the 35Hz-40Hz range can be a sensitive one regards the Mini LFE or other but what I can say is with iNuke features you can maximise the performance of whatever tactile you are using.

Point being if a select game/car Simvibe effect is causing an annoying feeling to a tactile unit you have much more options to alter the exact Hz frequencies and behaviour that troublesome effect causes.

It looks daunting but the software/controls are easy to master with some testing.

Tactile Activity
The 1st octave 20Hz-40Hz is where the most actual energy/rumble is present.
The 2nd octave 40Hz-80Hz is the range of most bass in instruments/music or general effects.
Felt energy/rumble starts to drop off @ 65Hz and the higher you go the less it is felt. Engine revs are a good example of this.

This is a good reason possibly why BK tend to perform better with low end smack and Clarke Tactile perform a bit better with detail due to their design.


Regards the quote...
Not sure what two amplifiers @ $1000 was being refered to.

Yes kinda silly if only using Mini LFE as the 100-150 watts is more than enough for them to work well. In fact on smaller cockpits a person may use less than 100 watts.

eMotiva are darn good quality. Having 5 channels all in one box is nice but if a user only wants a solid build, quality amplification with no thrills/toys. Yes it might do and on paper it fits however even their newest $1000 amp with 5x 150w @4 ohms does not give much headroom to the amps max output does it?

I could highlight many AV amps from the past 6-10 years. Some THX certified for power/quality assurance that are available as bargins on ebay and would be equally as good or better with 7x channels never mind 5 in one box. Their are some provisions required but will add this to the guide above later as an option too.

iNuke 1000 model I listed above has more than enough power with 300 watts. Yes about double but I ask users to compare it's price/specs to the likes of Dayton Amps or other. I do not believe currently their is better amp for tactile under $200 and considering it is only $60 more than a Dayton APA 150 well the value/benefits are obvious.

One point to bear in mind is that it is always better to have extra power available so that the amplifier being used is not consistently flat out. Tactile is VERY DEMANDING on amplifiers therefore best to have an amp that is NOT operating constantly close to it's maximum capacity.

Also with iNuke you can set a "wattage limiter" so as NOT to damage your tactile and have peace of mind.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Thanks for detailed response.
Berney was commenting specifically on iNuke NU1000.
Speaking on wattage limiter, where do you have yours set when running Buttkickers Mini LFE, and if no limiter, what is volume control position.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for detailed response.
Berney was commenting specifically on iNuke NU1000.
Speaking on wattage limiter, where do you have yours set when running Buttkickers Mini LFE, and if no limiter, what is volume control position.

Curious how two NU1000
a) $1000 (unless $Aus?)
b) More than 5x power?

Anyways not to worry....
Maybe someone taking wrong ratings like PMPO or bridged rather than RMS.

Eg: My subs are 2000 watt ohhhhhh, but really only 300 watt RMS duhhhhh. Bit of a difference but that's marketing...

Volume Limiter
You set the volume limiter manually to whatever shakers/tactile your using. It electronically limits output to this.
Also you can save profiles so, easily load all previous settings inc different EQ etc.
EG: saved settings for cars/games/moods.
Or comparing different settings during testing.

Hope it helps...

 

[Coxis]

Huh, I didn't know you were back, so welcome back.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Volume Limiter
You set the volume limiter manually to whatever shakers/tactile your using. It electronically limits output to this.
Also you can save profiles so, easily load all previous settings inc different EQ etc.
EG: saved settings for cars/games/moods.
Or comparing different settings during testing.

Hope it helps...

I was just curios of how much of these 300 Watt will be effectively used with Buttkickers Mini LFE when running SimVibe, 50%?
Also, is fan noise really that bad as some posts on the net indicate, some even compare it to hair drier blowing full blast.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes pretty much, so loads of headroom...
PA type amps, due to their typical usage, fan noise is often not not seen as a design requirement. What matters more is the airflow output/cooling ability.



Noisy fan aside, as I pointed out iNuke NU DSP1000 will ALSO manage to power the larger "Buttkicker Advance" making it ideal for those seeking better than Mini LFE performance. Okay not a PRO for everyone but what if they ever consider upgrading, then they can keep the same amp no problems.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/advance
The Advance was the first tactile unit I bought back in approx 2006.
For comparison it's PISTON is approx 3x heavier than the one in Mini Lfe / Gamer units.

(Below will be added to future comparison of Buttkickers but guys its something not many look into)

HEAVIER PISTON = MORE KICKASS
Mini LFE 6oz
Advance 16oz 3X
LFE 60oz 10x

 

[RReed43]

Let me speak to SimVibe. I set up my first tactile on GT5 using two Aura Bass Shakers and two Dayton SA70's amplifiers. I mounted the Aura's under the seat and drove them independently off the feed from the PS3. I used a equalizer to help separate the audio info from the tactile info. It worked fine and added a lot to the experience.

I moved to PC based sim racing (Assetto Corsa) back in December. I purchased SimVibe. I eliminated the equalizer as SimVibe only supplies tactile information synthesized from the sim directly. I ran it in left right. I was blown away by the quality of the tactile. I now feel like I'm in a car with the rumble of the engine, the feel of the road (rough patches, curbs, rumble strips) as well as the feel of the shocks operating.

In addition SimVibe is being improved. SimVibe makes it simple to build a tactile profile for a specific car and track. Drive a couple of laps and then SimVibe analyzes the tactile outputs and turns into a profile. It is an order of magnitude better than what I could produce by playing with the controls.

I was so impressed I decided to make my rig "surround" by adding two more tactile transducers. I purchased two more shakers, I bought the ADX Bass Shakers (sold by Part-Express) because the had a slightly smaller foot print than the Aura's which will make installation a little simpler when I add them under the pedals. The Dayton SA70 are simply workhorse amps but that is all I need with set up. Four amps, four shakers all driven by SimVibe. The new kit is due to arrive tomorrow.

I let you know what I think.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Let me speak to SimVibe. I set up my first tactile on GT5 using two Aura Bass Shakers and two Dayton SA70's amplifiers. I mounted the Aura's under the seat and drove them independently off the feed from the PS3. I used a equalizer to help separate the audio info from the tactile info. It worked fine and added a lot to the experience.

I moved to PC based sim racing (Assetto Corsa) back in December. I purchased SimVibe. I eliminated the equalizer as SimVibe only supplies tactile information synthesized from the sim directly. I ran it in left right. I was blown away by the quality of the tactile. I now feel like I'm in a car with the rumble of the engine, the feel of the road (rough patches, curbs, rumble strips) as well as the feel of the shocks operating.

In addition SimVibe is being improved. SimVibe makes it simple to build a tactile profile for a specific car and track. Drive a couple of laps and then SimVibe analyzes the tactile outputs and turns into a profile. It is an order of magnitude better than what I could produce by playing with the controls.

I was so impressed I decided to make my rig "surround" by adding two more tactile transducers. I purchased two more shakers, I bought the ADX Bass Shakers (sold by Part-Express) because the had a slightly smaller foot print than the Aura's which will make installation a little simpler when I add them under the pedals. The Dayton SA70 are simply workhorse amps but that is all I need with set up. Four amps, four shakers all driven by SimVibe. The new kit is due to arrive tomorrow.

I let you know what I think.

I think many people will be interested to hear what you think of the ADX Shakers and also the difference in feel between stereo Simvibe and four channel.

I have experimented with both mono and stereo tactile systems for console (PS3) and my conclusion is that a mono system adds greatly to the experience through increased immersion. You don't need to spend a lot to get a worthwhile effect. e.g. a Dayton SA100 and an Aura Shaker will give a good effect if the seat has a metal frame and the amp has enough power to add an extra shaker later if necessary.

Stereo tactile is not worth the trouble for console in my opinion because of difficulties in isolating one channels tactile effect from the other (even if you mount a shaker on the left of the seat a significant amount of rumble will still be felt on the right and vice versa). The signal from the PS3 is weak and if you go to stereo you halve the signal strength, which then means extra expense to boost the signal.

Great thread Mr Latte full of lots of useful information so far.

Regarding budget shakers, I recommend the Aura AST2B Pro 4 if you can get them - they give good results with GT5 and GT6. If you can't get hold of them, the Sinus Live Bass Pump 3 is a cheaper alternative. They aren't as good and don't offer as much clarity and thump. They are advertised as accepting the same power - 50W RMS, but I don't believe this - I have both types of shaker and the Bass Pump 3's bottom out at high levels.

I also have a Buttkicker Advance - this is not a budget shaker so unless you have deep pockets you are unlikely to be using four of them for Simvibe. A single Advance Shaker under your seat, however gives good results with GT6 especially with certain cars - the tactile effects are weak with many of the cars and are non-existent with some racing titles - this is not a fault of the shaker or amp, but some games have little or no low frequency content.

Happy Shaking!

 

[RReed43]

The issue of surround vs stereo vs mono is highly subjective. It is hard to expect great directionally fidelity on a sim racing frame certainly a static rig like my PlaySeat.

My point of view is one of total driven power. An Aura Bass shaker can handle 50 watts. It will get hot if heavily driven. A Dayton SA70 will drive 50 watts, it gets hot, it's not hard to cause a thermal shut down.

It was easy to utilize two Aura's and two SA70 in stereo mode on the PS3; mount them left and right and drive them left and right. I tested it subjectively on GT5/6 and felt there was a slight stereo effect.

On SimVibe I also experience a slight stereo effect but what is pushing me to double the amount of tactile is the feel of the simulation. I'm pushing the amplifiers and shakers as hard as I can and feel that adding more tactile power into my unit will improve the experience.

In Asseto Corsa you select a car and race and then it takes you to the selected event. When you arrive you are sitting in a running car. SimVibe kicks in and you feel the rumble of the engine in the racing seat. Nothing like this exists in GT5/5.

When you shift gears, you feel a "chur-chunk" in the frame as the gears change. Nothing like this exists in GT5/6.

When you run over rough pavement on the track you feel the vibrations from the pavement. Nothing like this exists in GT5/6.

My real goal is just to produce more tactile through the application of more tactile wattage essential moving from 100 watts to 200 watts. I elected to spend slightly more money by maintaining spatial capability by using separate shakers and amplifiers. I feel you don't know what you might be missing if you don't try.

I'll let you know when I get it running.

 

[Mr Latte]

Good to see more peoples comments on "Their Experiences" of course everyone's may differ.

Guys Ahem....
Photos to compare internals of the $50 units (ADX etc) would be welcomed to try and clarify hardware similarities if any?

 

[Mr Latte]

Just want to be careful the thread doesn't turn into a SPAT about comparing "Game Audio Tactile" to "Simvibe" or PC Vs Consoles. Of course peoples experiences and views are welcomed but just concerned, want to avoid situation of ignorantly dissing one or to highlight one over the other. Nor do I want to be accused of doing such. Fairness all the way!

Hardware discussions and comparisons are good as we have both types of users here and both can benefit from this thread. For me personally both have some advantages of their own but in control and immersion performance yes of course the winner is clearly Simvibe.

GT6 TIP:
Compare "Living Room" Setting in audio settings.
Small / Large Home Theatre tends to reduce the volume but increase LFE dB output...

I eliminated the equalizer as SimVibe only supplies tactile information synthesized from the sim directly.

Hi RReed43
Geees, taking away sliders and knobs, removing the ability for advanced hardware tweeking!!!
Aghhh that would give me the SHAKES, man you trying to make me ill, lol.

Interesting but understandable....
I'd of thought having an ability to make easy adjustments without effecting say a saved profile could still have some advantages? Suppose though, with most normal EQ the issue is LACK of sliders/controls in the 20Hz- 100Hz range.
Many EQ only have a single control slider, others upto 4 and the Behringer FBQ 3102 upto 7 sliders in this operating range.

Digital - Analogue?
It may synthesized data, call it noisy data if you want but is it not converted to good ole fashioned analogue low frequency noise?

 

[RReed43]

I certainly don't want a console vs PC war either. I have spent most of my time on console sim racers and just recently moved to PC. The principal reason is that I didn't appreciate the way console manufacturers treated those who have invested heavily in sim racing hardware when they brought out new consoles. XONE doesn't support my Fanatec gear, PS4 doesn't now and there is no guarantee it ever will.

SimVibe is a side benefit to the PC experience. It would be welcome if console game manufacturers allowed SimVibe to work on their games. Somehow I don't think that will ever happen. Perhaps in a future iteration of GT a tactile driver would be integrated into the software. They have the numbers to do that but I don't know if they have the desire.

In regard to the signal being produced by SimVibe. I have never looked at it with an audio analyzer but simply reading what it does. SimVibe drives a separate audio card on your computer independent of the normal audio (music, car sounds, etc) being produced by the game. It is my understanding that it produces low frequency "sounds" related to tactile events occurring in the simulation. I don't know any of the details of this but all of the output is intended for tactile so I saw no reason to try to modify that signal with an external equalizer.

All of the output signals from SimVibe are individually controlled from within SimVibe. There are so many individual effects that trying to set each up by itself is a daunting task which is why having SimVibe generate a specific profile for a specific car is well appreciated. You can also borrow profiles from other users who have a good profile for a specific situation.

 

[Mr Latte]

I also have a Buttkicker Advance - this is not a budget shaker so unless you have deep pockets you are unlikely to be using four of them for Simvibe. A single Advance Shaker under your seat, however gives good results with GT6 especially with certain cars - the tactile effects are weak with many of the cars and are non-existent with some racing titles - this is not a fault of the shaker or amp, but some games have little or no low frequency content.

Happy Shaking!

Hey cheers for that and info on the Sinus Live Bass Pump 3.
I think it is more suited in the role of a "Shifter Extension" but it's owners comments like your own from comparisons that give others additional confidence in purchases...


Regards GT6 for me is really a mixed bag, much of it down to the cars used, such variation in quality of tactile in them.

Though I'm not lacking any front/back stereo felt effects.
Also I can feel difference in cars with front / mid engines having more strength in front stereo and rear engine is felt stronger in the back surrounds under my seat.

My current testing platform uses 4x Clark set to "Quadraphonic" without .1 channel.
Instead I was trying the Buttkicker LFE via Analouge Stereo tuned to 20Hz-40Hz with @ 700 watts using iNuke DSP 3000. Just last week I was toying around and getting some superb idle engines and upto about 4K RPM are sheer mental in low end, oh the game can at times be very entertaining in tactile enjoyment.