Mugen Special: The Civic Type 'RR'

[Rotary Junkie]

-> And to the guy who bahses FWD as "ricers". If you have nothing else to say, then just don't say anyting anything at all, you may get banned if you continue that attitude. As your username implies that you like Rotaries, they're some FWD that are faster than some rotaries at the touge tracks like the SEED EG6.

Yeah, and there's a few Yugos that give damn near anything a run for their money.

Show me a FWD STOCK that shows up a STOCK FR of the SAME power/weight ratio. Ehh, no. I realize that FWD can be MADE fast, but it A. Takes more money than I care to spend, and B. it still won't keep up with what a good FR can do.

Strangely, the idea of paying 39K for 2-300hp is ludicrous to me, especially considering that under acceleration weight goes AWAY from the drive wheels and cornering on throttle is inhibited due to the fronts having to put up with cornering force AND acceleration.

I'd LOVE a rotary, as I KNOW they can make power, but pricing for upgrades of any sort has been jacked up beyond my comprehension due to RX's being japanese. That, and I can't seem to find a good FD for under 10K. So, give me the cheapest to modify performance vehicle around: A 'Stang. 1987-93 notch four-cylinder, preferably. Then I can swap pistons to forged jobbies and throw a turbo on. Or just swap in a TC motor. Let's see: Stock block can handle 450+ HP reliably, 1999-up Cobra IRS can be swapped in, and there's plenty of after-market support for the front suspension.

Bet you can't make a Civic (or other FWD, for that matter) run 11's (12's on street tires) at the strip, corner well, and still be streetable (Read: doesn't ride like a truck, tires don't wear out every 500 miles, and be civilized enough for your grandma to make a grocery run in) for 10-15K.

This Mugen is UGLY if you ask me, it's FWD, it's a Civic, it's expensive, and there won't be a single stocker within 3 years.

And how much are you willing to bet that all the RWD entries in said touge race went together for cheaper than y'alls beloved FF?

Oh, and I HIGHLY doubt I'd get banned for expressing my views.

 

[Muzaffar]

Look!Just stay away from this thread if you hate civics or any FF car.If you don't have anything nice to say,don't say anything at all!And if you were wondering,there is a car with the same power/weight ratio.Don't underestimate FF car.Just because they are underpowered doesn't mean there weak.Most touring cars are FF if you were wondering.And FF cars can be fast in drag racing,just look at the NDRA sport compact class.There are mostly FF cars and they could compete against the Fr cars as well......

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

And don't DARE get me started on FF drag racing. If one pulls a 5-second run in the 1/4, THEN I might become a convert.

Touring cars? FF? Where? Not the DTM, the ABSOLUTE BIGGEST touring car championship.

theres ff's that run 7's isnt that good enough?

and im gonna burst your bubble and you can argue all you want but dtm is NOT the biggest touring car championship,WTCC is which has seat leons and Chevrolet Lacetti's and alfa 156's which are (drum roll please) FF!!

and $39k for a civic and noone will buy it? not true people will buy it thats why they make.would you buy a full spec BMW 116i for 50k USD?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Why? Limited production and rice looks, on top of a "schpethwal" chassis/drivetrain.

just like this then

 

[Muzaffar]

just like this then

Yes,very ricey! and not only in WTCC but in other touring car races as well (BTCC,Asian Turing Cars,Ghia cup in Macau GP (even though BMW seems to win it ) and even in rallying) Rotary Junkie, if your saying FR performs better than FF cars on winding road,i agree.But give a FF cars a chance.They could perform exceptionally well on twisting roads because they do have more grip (they don't drift like FR cars) and accelerate faster out of the corners (although the front tires could get worn out easily)

Enough said,just enjoy the ricey Civic Type RR for now,as there is very few popular JDM cars in the market (skylines,silvias,supras,mr2/mrs,NSXs,RX-7s,and even the celica) all went out of production.Sure there is some JDM cars now but its nothing compared to the older JDM cars.....

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

nop 18's and it is a factory special limited production.
off the line true an ff isnt good but once going they are very quick and in your case using theory an FF car is faster once going as it doesnt lose as much power to the wheels as an FR/4WD.

im guessing you havent had an FF round a race track ether? has an FF car would be able to pull out of a corner harder as you would have to be patient with a FR car so it wouldnt lose grip at the rear.I have a video of a friends 280BHP FWD Seat leon being chased by a 325BHP 535D.now going with ur theory the 535D would have been faster? it wasnt
i wouldnt be surprised if that civic is faster than an S2000 around a track.the s2k is known to be a twitchy car plus the fact it needs to have its head revved off to get it to go anywhere too.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Leons are light. ESPECIALLY next to a 535D. It's a 5-series, a relatively heavy car, AND it's got a diesel hanging off the nose.

And AGAIN: A well-tuned FR WILL be able to outdo an FF coming out of a corner. Low-torque vehicles exemplify this.

Why would an FR have more working losses? There's the driveshaft, but...
Damn, I'm surprised how many of you believe in FF OVER FR.

For a fair comparison based on price, let's compare the 2007 Shelby GT500 to the Mugen Type ARR ARR. Sure, the Shelby's a bit more expensive (1-2k), but it's got 500hp and a good chassis. I wouldn't doubt that Civic on a two-lane mountain road, but if it EVER opens up, the Shelby kills it.

And yet, if we had a RWD block for the ARR ARR's engine and converted the Mugen to rear-drive by way of T-5 5-speed and a custom driven IRS out back, I WOULD NOT mind it. Why? It don't weigh squat, and its RWD.

I think that people will flood into dealerships right when a company brings out a flyweight RWD compact sedan, wagon, coupe, and 'vert. But what do I know, eh?

What model is that RiceX-8, BTW? I want to throw the person behind it into a frying pan. It looks like ISH, and that's putting it lightly.

I want a car that can take corners flat-out. That don't happen with FF.
Really, what FF was designed for was saving space for interior room. Naught more.

for your info the 535D had a better power to weight ratio to the leon so it should have been faster,but it could only catch the leon under brakes.

so your comparing a well tuned FR to a normal FF...according to you wouldnt a normal fr be good for that.why not compared a well tuned FR to a well tuned FF?

and i can pretty much guarantee you that you will be able to take ALOT more corners flat out in an FF compared to an FR with you being 13 and no doubt youve never driven irl on the public roads or on a race track how can you confidently say an FR is better over an FF? im not trying to put you off or anything and if you wanna keep the blinkers on then fair do's but unless youve had proper on track/road experience you cannot confidently say that X fr is better than XX FF and how can you really compare an 500BHP FR to a 240BHP FF? why not compare the gt500 to a gallardo....after all its 30% FWD

and i doubt you will be able to get a GT500 at list price.

and its the x-men edition

also an FR will have a higher drivetrain loss compared to an FF hence an FF will get more power to the ground.

 

[Muzaffar]

I think some of you need to remember,the Mugen Civic Type RR is a JDM car and its price is after importing right? I know its expensive to import JDM car.Thats the reason why the Civic was so expensive.But for Malaysians,we get JDM car easily through "Grey imports" so we could get it like around RM 200,000 or more (more than 58,131.09 USD) but American and European cars are so expensive here ( a 911 here could cost more than RM 800,000 or 232,524.34 USD not including road tax ) oh why.......

But onto the topic now......Rotary Junkie, do you know how a FR handles like?How could you say an FR "grips" better than a FF?No matter how you tune the car,whether a Touring car or a Stock car,they will have oversteer!There no way to avoid it,even if you put TC or soft tyres.It grips but could start sliding if too much power is applied.To know more about the FF layouts,here is the link

 

[Prosthetic]

Wow.. why does one of the most successful cars in the history of cars get so much heat? Guys there is a reason why the Honda gets so many damn rewards. Sure you can go buy your eight bangers for a couple thousand more then this car. But look what this car used to be. A eco-box with some sporty feels to it.
There are movies floating around the net of tons of different civics beating FR cars in any racing sport there is, except maybe rally; but who knows... Besides the Civic has good handling, enough to keep up with a FR car with decent pair of tires. I don't think you guys are giving Honda enough credit. Besides they practically started this whole thing with the Civic. Honda used Civics for racing since at least the 80's.

 

[Kent]

I think you are all lossing sight of the thread's topic.
Civic Type RR. 👍
As for FF and FR, there are plenty of places this has been discussed and I'm sure a quick trip to the general automotive forum would provide a thread for said topic. 👍
So with that said, let's try to keep with the topic at hand.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I simply stated that there's no way in heck an FF is gonna keep up with an FR through the twisties.

For a fair comparison based on price, let's compare the 2007 Shelby GT500 to the Mugen Type ARR ARR. Sure, the Shelby's a bit more expensive (1-2k), but it's got 500hp and a good chassis. I wouldn't doubt that Civic on a two-lane mountain road, but if it EVER opens up, the Shelby kills it.

So then you admit you were wrong?


EDIT: Kent, you posted while I was making mine. If you want I can erase it.

 

[YSSMAN]

Who in their right mind would be comparing a Shelby GT500 to some punk-ass Civic from Japan? I don't care how well the car performs, but it isn't something that can be thrown in the ring against the Mustang. It would be like sticking Jackie Chan in with Muhammad Ali (in his prime), two completely different styles of fighting coming out with a fairly predictable end.

As we have pointed out dozens of times before in this forum, depending on the application, there isn't ever a distinct, clear winner here. Larger and more open tracks will always favor the larger and more powerful cars, while tighter and more complicated tracks will favor those more apt to turning and holding speed.

Comparing a $50K+ Mustang to a $30K Civic just isn't worth it. Knock the pegs down to a Solstice GXP or a 350Z, and things would be more interesting.

Still, with a Civic that is this rare, this expensive, much less being one that will never see European or American soil, we've got nothing to worry about...

The GTI is still king of the sport compact hill, and when it comes to affordable thrills, the Mustang GT will still eat the Civic Si alive. Or there is always the Cobalt SS, 350Z, RX-8, etc...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Against a 4000lb Shelby? Yeah, the Civic's gonna be quicker. Here, let's take, eh, how about a Ford 500, FWD, give it 500hp, leave it FWD, and do as much suspension work as you want without lightening the car. Good luck with that.
If FR is susceptible to power-oversteer, aren't FFs just as likely to power-UNDERSTEER? Because a tire lighting up on the front can't do much in the way of turning the car, now can it? Soo... Wouldn't that mean you CAN'T take corners flat-out? I don't want understeer on throttle.

that would help the fwd car,not taking the weight out will give it more traction:tup:

FWD cars can and do power oversteer same as a FR can power understeer.just because you read or see on top gear a high power fwd car understeer doesnt mean it really is like that,for example when top gear had the astra VXR and vectra VXR clarkson over exaggerated the power understeer,but then again the stig didnt have much problem taking alot of the corners flat out didnt he.

 

[Perfect Balance]

mmm_BMX: If FR is susceptible to power-oversteer, aren't FFs just as likely to power-UNDERSTEER? Because a tire lighting up on the front can't do much in the way of turning the car, now can it? Soo... Wouldn't that mean you CAN'T take corners flat-out? I don't want understeer on throttle. Also, dang near everything I've heard of FF's says that when the arse loses grip it comes more suddenly than an FR. I'll take an FF for my daily driver, but I sure wouldn't buy one as a toy. (Part of that might be that my family would kill me for having a hot import. But I'd still drive an RX. So long as it doesn't have a fartcan and bodykit. STOCK looks, baby.)
Don't mean I won't take a four-cylinder. A fox-body with a turbo 2.3 and decent suspension WILL have good weight distribution, as well as being light.

Now let's light that FUGLIFIED RX-8 on fire.

An FF can oversteer with throttle too, it's as easy as getting a big sway bar for the rear. It might not be enough on all cars, but it's not very hard.

As for FR understeer, take for example a 240sx (s13) they are known for understeer. It's not the best example, but the first one that comes to mind.

It seems to me you have a basic understanding of how cars work with different layouts, but the fact is that a car can be tuned to do what you want, and there's so many factors besides drivetrain that change the car's handling.

I don't know much about the engines in the older ford mustangs, especially the 4 cylinder models, but I'm guessing, and I'm almost 100% sure I'm right, is that tuning that engine isn't worth it, especially putting a turbo on it. Not to mention making it a lot more unreliable.

I'm really not a fan of muscle cars, but you could probably find a V8 out of something else for less money, and it will have more power, more torque, and a smoother power delivery.

And I'm sure it won't weigh that much more, but I'd have to check before making that claim.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't know much about the engines in the older ford mustangs, especially the 4 cylinder models, but I'm guessing, and I'm almost 100% sure I'm right, is that tuning that engine isn't worth it, especially putting a turbo on it. Not to mention making it a lot more unreliable.

I'm really not a fan of muscle cars, but you could probably find a V8 out of something else for less money, and it will have more power, more torque, and a smoother power delivery.

And I'm sure it won't weigh that much more, but I'd have to check before making that claim.

Check out the history of the Ford Mustang SVO. It was the predecessor to the SVT Cobra program and had a radical idea; Instead of a V8, lets use a turbocharged inline four!

The car was touted as the performance champ, but in reality, it was only a few shades quicker than the standard GT 5.0 of the era, and it eventually died after a three model year run.

Dollar for dollar, there isn't much that is going to outdo a small block Ford or Chevy out of the crate. In general terms, roughly 300 BHP isn't hard to come by for less than $2000, you just have to look in the right place.

In terms of weight, it largely depends. Newer four-pots are going to weigh less than a Ford Modular engine, but that gap would be significantly narrowed when the GM small block is thrown in.

 

[Prosthetic]

You guys are talking about V8's in a Civic thread? o.O

 

[YSSMAN]

Strange, huh?

I guess I shouldn't have mentioned that I'd rather have a Mustang compared to a Civic all those postings ago...

 

[Perfect Balance]

I don't know much about the engines in the older ford mustangs,

snip

👍I can safely say I wasn't wrong then.

 

[YSSMAN]

So you're building it for $3K, or that is the cost of modification on top of the price of say, a K-series engine? Furthermore, does it even come with a warranty?

Overall, high power figures are far easier to come by with the bigger engines, usually for less money, and they often include a warranty as well.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Trust me

That's funny, especially after everything else you said in here.

 

[Azuremen]

That's funny, especially after everything else you said in here.

And considering he is 13 and claiming he has his personal tuning techniques.

And Rotary Junkie, you can get 400 HP reliably out of a 2.0 Liter 3S-GTE, without swapping out all the internals.

Lets look at the Old 1999 DC2 Integra Type R real quick. 190 HP, FF. It posted the same 1/4 mile time as a 230 HP AWD WRX. It was also faster around the track. Same was the case with the later models of the Type R vs WRX.

Thing is, FF only starts to really hurt if you are on crappy tires OR you have over 300 HP.

FR cars always have more drivetrain loses do the the shaft, its just physics. And FR cars can understeer like a pig, such as my friends S13. Stop thinking GT4 is the best representation of real life cars, mkay?

 

[hornet_burnout]

I guess Honda won... Got you all comparing a little sporty hatch to "real" sports cars, coupes and muscle cars. Rear and all wheel drive.

Must have done something right... Oh, right. They did. Corrected the 3 door mistake and made the best sports hatch around. Again!!!

And about the "Torolla" post: Tss tss tss...

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ Yup, compared to my slow WRX, the DC2 is a masterpiece. Worse, my GG7 doesn't even stand a chance on the track compared to it. In fact if I found an immaculate one, I'm willing to get rid of my wagon for the Type-R, since I kinda mastered the art of driving FF in real life. I think I'll take that Type-RR anyday. (:

 

[hornet_burnout]

...and I'm not even a FF fan. Or 4wd. I hate understeer. And love the smell of a nice oversteering FR powerslide. 👍

But on the FF deptm, the type R has always ruled and can give "real" sports cars a good fight.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ Weheheh, good thing I can oversteer any FF and AWD. A little flick and throtte play will do the trick especially on bad weather, FUN!!!

-> I'll be happy if Honda could only bring the standard Type-R, no need to bring the "Mugenized" one. (:

 

[hornet_burnout]

^ Weheheh, good thing I can oversteer any FF and AWD. A little flick and throtte play will do the trick especially on bad weather, FUN!!!

True, and so can I. But it's been said that's exactly the problem with the type R. With it's stupid rear axle it doesn't like to be turned with throttle control (lift off induced oversteer). When you reach the front grip limit, it's as if the car can only go forward.

But I guess one can throw anything into an oversteer if you push it enough. Even if you have to use the e-brake... and have some sort of fun...

Hope this one is more agile and reactive to throttle. Can't wait to see the reviews and read the tests, since I'm NEVER getting my hands on one so I can see for myself!

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ Hopefully Best MOTORing could test the Mugen out for a spin, I'd like for it to compare it to the Spoon Civic "Type-R" and the stock Civic Type-R along with the DC5 Type-R.

~> I only use the E-brake only when doing hairpins.

 

[hornet_burnout]

On the track the "old" doesn't stand a chance. The 8th generation Civic has a better VTEC system (opens earlier, increasing power availability), shorter and faster gearbox, better brakes, much more grip from stiffer chassis and better, larger, lower profile tyres... and it's "easier" to drive.



It's just that for some maniacs (like me) we would like a little more fun, hidden where only a few can get it, past the grip limits. Like in the previous one.

Now if the "mugenized" version can do both, not only fast, but also a FUN drive...

And like I said... You can throw anything in to oversteer. But... e-brake cornering? Come one...
(hairpins excluded)

 

[skingg]

Of course, I still feel like the biggest advantage for this Civic is the wheel-tire combo... You just can't deny that tires like those are probably the most important upgrade you can make for a car. 👍

So true. Those Bridgestones RE070 I believe were the deciding factor when they had the FD2 beat the DC5 in Best Motoring, what with DC5 having a better power to weight ratio.

 

[YSSMAN]

-> I'll be happy if Honda could only bring the standard Type-R, no need to bring the "Mugenized" one. (:

Why? Our Civic Si doesn't come up short at all when you compare the performance of the two cars, the only difference is that we don't have the three door version as they do in Europe. Considering that the car would cost nearly $30K here in the US, again I'd have to point out that there are better cars out there for the price... Namely the VW GTI and R32, and at least in terms of performance, the Cobalt SS as well.