Mugen Special: The Civic Type 'RR'

[niky]

Show me a FWD STOCK that shows up a STOCK FR of the SAME power/weight ratio.

I'll pit my 2 liter Mazda Protege against a 2 liter US Market Altezza on a short track any time... Similar power to weight ratio... same size.

I could spend all day explaining how front wheel drive cars do not default to understeer in all situations. In fact, front wheel drive cars do oversteer... sometimes a lot. If you've ever actually driven a front-wheel drive car in anger at 10/10ths, you'd understand.

Now, come racetrack time, yes, often a rear-wheel drive car will perform better... it'll use its tires a little more evenly, and it can put down power a little earlier. But if it's a common, everyday front-engined rear-wheel drive car... it will understeer. In fact, it will often understeer like a stuck pig.

Front-engined cars understeer on the racetrack due to the fact that they have a large engine over the front axle. Whether they're front, rear or four-wheel drive, they will understeer. BMW gets around this by fiddling with weight balance... put more weight in the back, take some off the front, and presto! you've got a car with a 50:50 weight balance. Kinda unfair, then, to compare FFs and FRs of the same weight, if some of that weight on the FR helps the handling...

A lot of trackday afficionados will have the run of the field in lighter (by design, by nature, and by the fact that they have less mechanical weight to drag around) front-wheel drive cars... one funny posting on the net was of a race instructor demolishing the other guys on track in a 1.5 liter Scion xB, which he loves a lot (and this is a guy who owns a V8 Atom and a bespoke AWD Hayabusa-powered kit car (http://www.dpcars.net) and, at one time, the current M5). The last hillclimb series here was won in a Honda CRX. Before you start complaining "Well, that's a very light car...", it was up against highly modified Evos, WRXs, BMWs and one or two Super Seven clones.

In this case, the front wheel drive layout helps provide a stable and predictable handling platform in which you can counter unwanted oversteer with power-understeer (just like you can in an Evo) and you can still nudge the car into a neutral stance to slight oversteer on demand with some deft throttle-brake juggling.

A boardmate on the Mazda boards posted an FTD (fastest time of the day) at his local autocross event, beating out WRXs, EVOs, M3s and GTRs, simply because his Protege wagon was well-balanced, predictable, and very sharp. Meaning it was neutral and had little in terms of understeer or oversteer. That's without the benefit of an LSD... and all these cars are race-prepared.

There's no unfair tire advantage in pitting a race-prepped FF against a race-prepped FR. In the clip I mentioned previously, the Spoon S2000 and the Spoon Civic Type R sedan were on identical tire compounds and sizes, and the Civic won.

I'm not saying FF is superior in all occassions. Well-engineered FF and FR cars of identical weights and power will often see the FR do better (though of course, as I've said, identical weights are misleading... if they had identical chassis weights and the FR was allowed to be heavier due to the heavier drivetrain, it would be more fair). And the FF car loses out, of course, when you go past the point where current tire technology can cope with the power...

That's the point at which most people go: "See!?! See!?! FWD=teh suck!" To these people, I say... if all you want is straightline power, take a train.

In the end, to completely pooh-pooh any and every FF car (as Onikaze often does... ) is utterly unfair unless you've driven a truly good FF car on the track. In my times on track, I've seen some truly awful ones, but I've seen some surprisingly good ones... even ones I'd dismissed as complete ****e before I'd seen them in action. And I drive an FF car... hard, every day. I may have thought, once or twice: "Gee, I wish this thing had an LSD...", but I've never thought: "Gee, this is pure ****... I wish it was rear-wheel drive."

Don't get me wrong... I've enjoyed driving rear-wheel drive vehicles... and power-sliding is a treat... but technical driving on the racetrack or making the best time you can down your favorite mountain road doesn't involve power-sliding or ass-dragging your car through the turns... it involves precision, nimbleness and stability. I've driven FFs and FRs that have those traits... and I've driven FFs and FRs that don't. I've driven trucks, actually, that do, too (that was a shock).

It's technology, man. Build a chassis good enough, and it'll be an awesome drive... even if its motive power is a team of dogs pulling it via tow cables. It's not about FF versus FR versus AWD... it's simply this... if a car is good, it's good. Period.

-----

But if we're talking FF versus MR... that's a whole different ballgame... ...I'd take an MR over anything else, any time.

What was the comment from the "10 Greatest Icons" issue of Evo? "We've got front wheel drive cars (Integra), front-engined four wheel drive cars (Integrale), mid-engined four wheel drive cars, mid-engined rear wheel drive cars, rear-engined rear wheel drive cars, but strangely, no front-engined rear-wheel drive cars here..." (or something like that)...

 

[Azuremen]

I'll pit my 2 liter Mazda Protege against a 2 liter US Market Altezza on a short track any time... Similar power to weight ratio... same size.

Snip

But if we're talking FF versus MR... that's a whole different ballgame... ...I'd take an MR over anything else, any time.

The US market does not have a 2 liter Altezza, we just had the IS300 with the 2JZ-GE in it. Still not a fast car really (o-60 in the mid 7's I think)

And yes, MR cars > all. For pure fun factor and driving precision, though they are far less forgiving than FF cars, that is for certain.

BTW, absolutely exacellent post. You might also want to recall two race prepped cars compared on BMi once. A NSX and a City (I think), and the City won...

 

[Keef]

What' wrong with FWD? If you slap some Tein coilovers and some DOT slicks on a Toyota Yaris it'll pull over a g on the skidpad. SCC did it last month for their g-pulling comparison.

 

[hornet_burnout]

This has come from "how about that new mugen type R?" to become the usual debate about wich religion, party, sports club, operating system, or in this case wheel drive configuration is the best...

Some configurations are better in some ways, and not so good in other ways. And you end up defending the one that does that thing you prefer the best (and some become really religious/fanatic about it).

I for one am not in favor of one single configuration. I kind of like them all, if well built! I like FF, MR, AWD or FR and probably will like RR if get the chance to try one out for serious.

Obviously, with the traditional RWD over steer that I love, and the power slide factor coming into effect, I prefer anything in that kind of configuration (FR being the most common and easy to get my hands on). But like nikysays, not having that, doesn't make me wanna hate all FF cars!

The only point I want to make about the standard Type-R, is:
There can be more to a car than to be fast and effective. Which is one thing I, and everyone else, likes in a car. The Type R is one of those cars, and I like it for it. It's excellent.

But there can be more, you can have another type of fun (although being slower) sliding and drifting under control. And it doesn't allow you to do that (e-brake jerking around doesn't count).

It is a manufacturer decision, it has been designed that way for some reason (some additional safety to compensate the idiotic rear axle?).

Please note that I'm not asking it to do impossible things like the genuine RWD power slides that I love. Just a 3rd gear, lift-off induced, 4 wheel drift around a medium fast corner would do the trick for me, and the thing would be near perfection.

But it's still a great car and I love it. You shouldn't dismiss it like "a FF under steering piece of c*** like all FF are", but instead learn to appreciate cars like these.




It's just a different configuration, not heresy...

 

[hornet_burnout]

It's made me realize the true idiocy of even arguing for/against FF/FR on my part.

Arguing is never idiocy, unless you are arguing with an idiot .
(obviously not your case)

 

[niky]

Arguing is the rule on the internet. You have never truly lived on the forums until you've had at least one hundred-page debate under your belt (better ask Danoff for advice on that... )... don't worry... on the internet or in terms of cars, everyone's an idiot at some point in time... you really don't want to know the "mods" I put on my first car...

DC2 vs. WRX might be unfair. The older WRXs tend to understeer quite a bit due to the nose-heavy layout (compared to the Mitsubishi EVO), and, in fact, the first thing older WRX owners say after coming out of a Proty is: "Wow, where's the understeer?"

As for turbo-four versus smallblock... all I have to say is: 500 hp SR20DE, 600 hp 4G63... stock internals. But good luck keeping the transmissions in one piece... one SR owner making near 500 keeps three trannies as spares. I think that's one advantage Americans have... trannies designed for torque.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, we can do much the same with stock pieces as well, but I'd agree that Transmissions are certainly one of our strong points. When it comes down to it, not much is going to surpass the GM Turbo 400 in terms of strength, and given it's basis in almost every modern GM transmission, you know it was a good design to begin with...

===

As for arguing, this isn't anything. Remember those days not too long ago? Get folks like Dave A, Joey D, M5Power, Poverty, and myself in a given topic, and it will go on and on and on and on. Those topics usually included the current RWD vs whatever question, discussions of Audi, discussions of Corvette, discussions of transmissions, etc...

...Those were the days alright...

===

Lets try to bring this back to the topic at hand!

So, lets say we were given the ability to gather the best sport compact cars from every nation that produces them. Assuming that this Mugen Civic RR would represent Japan, what chances would it stand against say;

- Chevrolet Cobalt SS
- Vauxhall Astra VXR
- Renault Megane R26
- VW Golf R32 MKV
- Alfa Romeo Brera

Eh?

 

[Muzaffar]

Snip

So, lets say we were given the ability to gather the best sport compact cars from every nation that produces them. Assuming that this Mugen Civic RR would represent Japan, what chances would it stand against say;

- Chevrolet Cobalt SS
- Vauxhall Astra VXR
- Renault Megane R26
- VW Golf R32 MKV
- Alfa Romeo Brera

Eh?

Well i would say....none!I can't compare how good the Type RR is compared to those cars.Especially with the R32 and the Cobalt.But if the reviews are out,then i may believe that the Type RR would stand a chance against those cars.By the way,did you forgot to put the Skoda Fabia and the Seat Leon Cupra? (or whatever you called it.Its the car in the WTCC)

 

[YSSMAN]

I didn't include the sub-Vee Dubs simply because they are pretty much Golfs underneath. But even if they were a part of the mix, I'm uncertain of how well they'd perform. I know the Skoda is surprisingly quick, even with the diesel engine, which is indeed a pleasant surprise.

I know the Cobalt SS can usually do a good job staying ahead of the Civic Si here in the States, and although numbers on the US-spec R32 are thus unofficial, based on European figures I'd predict it to be a high performer.

The wild card would likely be the Frenchie, given that Renault has really figured out how to tune a chassis these days.

(Its a shame that they couldn't teach Nissan to do the same, given the Megane and Sentra share a chassis)

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Well i would say....none!I can't compare how good the Type RR is compared to those cars.Especially with the R32 and the Cobalt.But if the reviews are out,then i may believe that the Type RR would stand a chance against those cars.By the way,did you forgot to put the Skoda Fabia and the Seat Leon Cupra? (or whatever you called it.Its the car in the WTCC)

fabia's totally different,it only has a 130bhp TDi engine.you would compare it to the Octavia vRS which is the hot hatch of the skoda family.

 

[Race Idiot]

And Rotary Junkie, you can get 400 HP reliably out of a 2.0 Liter 3S-GTE, without swapping out all the internals.

You can but then that takes its toll on those internals and eventually its time for a rebuild. Also it depends on the actual block itself, some people have had more luck with the 1st/2nd versions of the s3gte which is apparently stouter, where others have gotten better results with the 3rd version of the 3sgte which the us never got. I dunno if you are talking about whp or hp, because i've never heard of a 400whp 3sgte on standard internals.

The wild card would likely be the Frenchie, given that Renault has really figured out how to tune a chassis these days.

Renault have always known how to make a car with a decent chassis I don't know how you can comment realy seeing as renaults arent even sold in america anyway. Although thats never stopped anyone on gtp mouthing off about things that they havent got a clue about in this forum has it.

 

[hornet_burnout]

- Renault [SIZE=-1]Mégane (Renaultsport 230 Renault F1 Team) [/SIZE]R26
That is said to be a great drive, but I really don't like it's looks, or it's interior, but that's a matter of personal taste.

- Alfa Romeo Brera - The Brera is a 2+2 Coupe. I think the Alfa fast hatch is the 147 GTA
Which is very beautiful, but really sucks! This is the kind of car that actually gives FF a bad name! They have launched the new Q2 limited split diff but still...


I think you forgot 2 important cars:

- the Ford Focus ST:
2.5 liter, 5 cylinder engine Turbocharged, 225 PS, 320 Nm (from 1600 to 4000rpm)
Looks are plain (even in orange) but sounds like a great drive.

- and the BMW 130i M Sport Limited. Although is RWD it's also a hatch:
3.0 liter, 6 cylinder, 265bhp, all the M Sport upgrades, including suspension, bodykit, special 18 alloys, special seats, steering wheel and paint...
Ugly rear, insanely expensive but very fast, effective and huge on the FUN factor.

Got to get my hands on one of these...

 

[Danny]

Maybe I'm a bit biased, but the Megane is really the benchmark for fast hot-hatch now.

 

[YSSMAN]

Renault have always known how to make a car with a decent chassis I don't know how you can comment realy seeing as renaults arent even sold in america anyway. Although thats never stopped anyone on gtp mouthing off about things that they havent got a clue about in this forum has it.

Well, I do know how to read and watch YouTube, so you make your assumptions based on opinion/fact from the European magazines. I've always understood that Renaultsport can screw together a pretty outstanding track car, one that in the case of the Renaultsport Clio, had American press types going crazy just a month or so ago.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

However, wouldn't the Caliber be a better comparison? 300hp, AWD.💡

^ Um, =ahem=, 300hp, FWD. The R/T has AWD, not the SRT-4.

 

[Azuremen]

Rotary, the comparo on the WRX and DC2 Type R was more because of the prices at the time they were new. And the fact that extra weight will always be an issue on FR and AWD cars.

The later gen 3S-GTE's pushed 250 HP, and while 400 HP can be done on stock internals (cams do swapped, but pistons don't) you are stressing the engine. However, building it can yield well over 400 WHP in a bullet proof engine. Transmission however is only good to about 400 HP at the crank.

I've driven every type of drive train on snow and gravel, and autocrossed several different cars. FF cars are not at the huge dis advantage you would think, and in fact some of the fastest cars around here are late 80s, early 90's Civics with cheap engine swaps and some tires.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've driven every type of drive train on snow and gravel, and autocrossed several different cars. FF cars are not at the huge dis advantage you would think, and in fact some of the fastest cars around here are late 80s, early 90's Civics with cheap engine swaps and some tires.

I think thats agreeable. I remember a time when there were plenty of FWD cars that would put many RWD ones to shame, but even today, I could still think of plenty of FWD models that are more fun to drive (faster or not).

As I had pointed out earlier, a good chassis tune (ala Renault) will go a long way to make a car rather quick, no matter what power layout it has.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I'd be with the Cobalt guys. $200 pulley swap (done at a shop, not in your backyard, no less! Could be much cheaper) gets a couple extra ponies (boost:GOOD. More like 30-40 horses) soo... I pay 20-22k USD, and have a 250-275 hp EFF EFF ESS ESS (so long as it's not an ESS EYE TYPE ARR ARR I'm fine. I don't want to be the guy in one during a standing-start street race, though.)

You = Fail.

And it's not ESS EYE TYPE ARR ARE. It's one or the other. You shouldn't make a judgement on a car if you don't even know what it's called.

 

[Muzaffar]

I don't know if this debate is going way off topic but lets try to stay with the topic okay?Civics and Integras are very popular back in the day.Now they just start to lose their touch with their cars.Most people may forgotten about one of the "faster" JDM FF cars.The Mitsubishi FTO could be very enjoyable to drive and have the power to back it up and with a MIVEC engine in it,it could make the V-TEC run for its money (but V-TEC was way more cheaper than the MIVEC at that time i think) but unfortunately the FTO is out of production and so was the Toyota Celica.

But my question is,why Honda always end up becoming "ricer" cars?Its the one fact that i really hate about.Can't a Nissan be called a ricer?(sorry if this doesn't make any sense,but its a fact)

 

[Jim Prower]

Actually, yes, yes, a Nissan Can Become a Ricer. Look at the first Fast and the Furious movie. Most of the cars in Dom's crew (R33 GT-R, 240SX, Sentra) were Nissans. and pretty ricey ones.

But, most kids get a Civic to slap some parts on and call it an "Uber L337 Kuztom." It just has that stigma.

However, i see no reason why a Mugen car should get a bad rap. Mugen knows what the hell they're doing.

 

[barryl85]

Show me a FWD STOCK that shows up a STOCK FR of the SAME power/weight ratio.

Honda introduced the integra type-r for one reason - to beat a nissan 180sx and it did and always has.

anyway - no point posting anything about honda's on this site they are all garbage - i mean everyone around here thinks so - so they must be right? oh and front wheel drive cars must also suck if we are going by the majority.

Oh and a side note - ROTARY'S SUCK

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

: Since I live in the U.S, why don't we compare the 240SX, 2.4l lump equipped power-weight?

integras still faster...

 

[Azuremen]

Yes, Rotary, they are all trolls and you are a nub Your arguments continue to become more and more esoteric, and when you realize you are losing in something, you radically change the subject and point fingers.

Have you spent time at the track? Have you ripped apart and car, done an engine swap, and so on? Cause all I am seeing is numbers numbers numbers, and nothing that is actually meaningful.

And stop with the Power to weight ratio bit. 95% of people looking at sports cars will compare the price to performance value, so two similarly priced cars, in this case the WRX and ITR, would more likely be compared than some FR with similar power to weight ratio. Well, there is the Miata, which gets its ass handed to it at the track by the Type R.

At the moment, the most likely to be riced vehicles are cheap FR cars because of teh leet drifting scene. Fact, because FF is teh SUK because its cannot be drifteded.

I have seen 300 WHP Sentras with SR20DET power plants lay waste to 300 WHP S13's at the track. A well setup FF car is amazing.

And rotaries have their own huge range of issues, first and foremost being heat. Then add a turbo to get at all respectable torque, and you start breaking things.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, there is the Miata, which gets its ass handed to it at the track by the Type R.

Well, I'd care to venture that the Miata would be more fun to drive, but thats just me. I find the cars quite entertaining despite the fact they aren't actually fast, but generally speaking, they do feel fast. And quite frankly, thats all that matters.

While on the topic of well-tuned front-drivers, I think my Jetta also deserves a mention. I've seen some very well-tuned MKIII models, but more or less they usually need more work than their Nissan or Honda counterparts (blame the 8V engine and the weight). Although, the VR6 models were monsters in the day...

Also, I'm the in the "Rotaries are teh sux" camp as well. If I wanted to find an engine that is less efficient and produces fewer ponies, I'd point out something like the '80s-era GM big-blocks. Seriously folks, the rotary fad has come and gone. They aren't efficient, they don't produce power in big numbers, and really do not stack up well against the competition. Don't get me wrong, the RX8 is a fun drive, but if they dropped the turbo engine out of the MPS6 into the same chassis, it would be a much better ride...

 

[Race Idiot]

Thanks for the correction, TVB.
Azuremen: A turbo 2.3 (preferably the SVO) will handle 400hp with bone stock internals and a cam swap, so the 3S isn't really that far ahead. The more plentiful NA 2.3 doesn't have the forged slugs, so a piston swap would be beneficial (read: almost 1000% necessary). Oh, and the 2.3 is a single cam. With roots in the 80's.

The 3S was also developed in the 80's. Bah just give me a ford yb cosworth block any day though.

 

[niky]

I have seen 300 WHP Sentras with SR20DET power plants lay waste to 300 WHP S13's at the track. A well setup FF car is amazing.

And I've seen SR20DET Sentras blow up, burn, break axles and grind trannies into dust. But yeah, my stars and garters, the SR20 is a wonderful beast... and I still mourn its passing...

Was funny... was on a radio show the other day with one of the leading tuners in our country (a guy who's done work on a 220 mph Ford GT). He races every once in a while and works in tuning touring cars, both suspension-wise and power-wise. We were jabbering on and on about what went into the GT build, fast cars and whatnot.

Then someone e-mails the question: "What's your favorite car to drive?"

Without batting an eye, he says: "My wife's Sentra (a 97 B14)." Stock engine, good tires, nothing else. Now, I've owned one of those, and I could name a bunch of cars that are faster, turn in quicker, and race better... but in my memory, despite lacking some steering feedback and grip, yeah... it wasn't a bad car... and oddly fun to drive, even with a beam-axle.

 

[Perfect Balance]

EDIT: Screw it, "Rotary Fanboy" isn't going to realize anything, I'm going way off topic, and Kent has already posted once about that.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well, that says a whole lot about you. Wow. Didn't think anyone could stoop so low.

Honestly, I had a whole post of bashing your statements and opinions with facts up for about 5 min, then I figured it would start some sort of flamefest. And after going about 3 years on this site without ever getting a pm from a mod or infractions, I don't want to start now.

And don't think I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to cars. I'm taking my last year in school towards being an ASE certified mechanic this upcoming year, along with a year of exterior bodywork and painting, I know how things work when it comes to cars.



Also, if you haven't noticed, each time you post, there's a couple of posts replying to yours, correcting you on various things. Let that be a sign to you.

EDIT: For example, what makes you say the Integra has "piss poor" grip off the line besides being FF (which doesn't nearly qualify it as "piss poor")?

EDIT #2: Do you have a fetish for power/weight ratio comparisons? So far the only 2 things you have used to support your statements have been power/weight ratios, and engine/drive layouts. There is also suspension design, unsprung weight, tire size, tire compound, weigh distribution, suspension design, aerodynamics, gear ratios, flywheel weight. Almost an unlimited amount of other things that affect grip and acceleration, with tires being the most drastic difference, which I don't recall you mentioning.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, we can handle this like adults, remember. Lead, he is only 13, so give him a break. He still has three years until he can drive, so you aren't going to be able to tell him otherwise as he just won't understand. Granted, you haven't been driving long, but at least you're driving, so you have got a bit of an understanding as to whats going on.

Just don't worry about it. We can still talk about the Civic...

Which leads me to my next topic:

Ours versus theirs in looks and performance, who wins?

Ours:

Similar power output, better suspension, four doors.

Theirs:

Similar power output, odd suspension, nice looking body though.

 

[Tornado]

Similar power output, better suspension, four doors.

Maybe I missed something, but the Japanese Type R has far more power and has the same suspension set up as the Si sedan. The European Type R is the one with similar power and an odd suspension. The Euro Type R is a tough call between our Si and their Type R, but the Japanese cars smears both of them.