My father is looking for a new car. (suggestions?)

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paskowitz

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thepatriots
Also see post 10 (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3812322&postcount=10).

Requirements:
-Within 250-ish miles of central NY (ie Hudson Valley)
-Must have GREAT (and I mean the caps) seats
-Used or new (if used <50k is preferable)
-NO FWD! RWD or AWD (rear bias) ONLY!
-If RWD it must be able to handle snow (and by handle I mean be very drivable with snow tires and not really need studs and by snow obviously if there is like a foot of snow with ice this car would not be able to go out. I am talking a 2 mile trip through town to the grocery store. In other words a little bit of snow won't put the car out of basic service)
-Not fugly (ie no E85 Z4, current gen STi/WRX, twin turbo PT Cruiser, etc)
-Not extremely ostentatious (an EVO X would be just barely ok with its wing clipped, EVO IX is not grown up enough, STi is a no, Dodge Charger is a NO, etc)
-under $30k (over only if by a little and extremely warranted, but in all honesty the cheaper the better, around $20k is the sweet spot)
-4 door (or coupe with usable rear seats, no convertible)
-Manual>very good manumatic (both are ok, paddle shifters>autostick, no plain auto)

Preferences:
-250hp+ (if less, less weight, what he is getting at is sporty)
-15+ combined MPG (20+ is preferred)
-less than 3750lbs (ie not porky)
-handling>acceleration (as a rule)
-Not a fortune to maintain
-Reasonably durable
-Good visibility
-Not required but upgrade-ability is a plus

(all that does narrow it down quite a bit)

My ideas:
- Used BMW 335i (Auto paddle any good? Snow-ability?)
- Used EVO X (minus wing) (MR or GSR?) *my favorite pick*
- Used BMW M3 E46 (I know... auto sucks) (snow?)
- 2010 Hyundai Sonata (down on power but a great value, I have heard Hyundai are much more reliable than they used to be as well as the fact their parts are dirt cheap. I have heard only good things about this car, if someone knows otherwise speak up) (FWD does hurt/just about kill this proposition though)

What do you think of my picks? Suggestions?
 
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He wants lots of power, yet prefers a car with good handling and mileage?

Not FWD, good handling... durability... and one of your picks is a Sonata? And the other three fall squarely within the "ostentatious" and "fortune-to-maintain" club.

Instead of a strange laundry list of conflicting requirements... why not just state what he wants and why.
 
TL-S. Ignore the fact it's FWD & it fits all those categories. The 2 BMWs aren't going to do very well in snow. They're not built for it.
 
McLaren
The 2 BMWs aren't going to do very well in snow. They're not built for it.
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I invite you to go to Bavaria in winter, you will see a lot of BMWs and a lot of snow.
1) Wintertires, no doubt about it and the cheapest will not do, the top class will (not always in price, but in grip).
2) Good driver, indeed if you push in snow, it will kick you.

N.B.: Clearly a 4 wheel drive will improve acceleration and turning in snow, breaking remains an issue.

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paskowitz

It does seem that with the list of requirements there will be some concessions to do.

Why not also include a list of past cars + and - experiences with them, might give a good idea of the liking of the person.
+ seems to me you want to inherit it and you are steering to something you like too.
 
Vince_Fiero
I invite you to go to Bavaria in winter, you will see a lot of BMWs and a lot of snow.
1) Wintertires, no doubt about it and the cheapest will not do, the top class will (not always in price, but in grip).
2) Good driver, indeed if you push in snow, it will kick you.
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Are they all 335i's & E46 M3's? If not, doesn't really make your point. A 335xi might do ok in the snow with it's AWD, but the 300Bhp+ going through the rear wheels alone is going to make both a bit fragile.
 
RWD and good in snow? Is this thread a joke?
If he wants good in snow, it MUST be FWD or 4WD, RWD is not an option.

And there's only a handful of 4WD's with 250+ HP in the 20-30K range, meaning it's a Subaru or Evo.... I don't know of anything else in America that's not FWD or RWD with 250+ HP. And if it were, it would then be hard to find one with 250+ HP and good in snow...Which could still only be FWD, because RWD sucks in snow, period. there's not enough % of vehicle weight on the drive wheels.
Tell him to get a 2WD truck, and load the back with sandbags and snow. Make sure it has 300+ HP though.

So rename the thread, "What kind of Subaru, EVO, or Truck should my dad buy?"
 
I changed the op a bit.

TrievelA7X
RWD and good in snow? Is this thread a joke?
If he wants good in snow, it MUST be FWD or 4WD, RWD is not an option.
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No it is not a joke. My father is not exactly young and has been driving for a long time. He knows how to handle a car. He owned one of the first Datsun Z's (with strait pipes) and drove it in NY and DC for years. Was it a handful, yes, did he ever crash, no. I edited my OP. He just needs to be able to use the car in a pinch, not go on twisty back roads. There would be a second car (AWD or FWD). So what I am asking is would any of the RWD cars listed with snow tires be able to make a 3 minute trip in the snow to get a gallon of milk? (also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXhOslFvuQ)

McLaren
TL-S. Ignore the fact it's FWD & it fits all those categories. The 2 BMWs aren't going to do very well in snow. They're not built for it.
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We considered that car a couple of years ago. He could not stand the torque steer. Otherwise it was great. Funny, now that it has AWD it is hideous. Still would have been better than our A4 at the time. Ugh why did we get that car?

Vince_Fiero
paskowitz

It does seem that with the list of requirements there will be some concessions to do.

Why not also include a list of past cars + and - experiences with them, might give a good idea of the liking of the person.
+ seems to me you want to inherit it and you are steering to something you like too.
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I am dead serious these are his requirements. My dad is not your normal type. He lifts weights before he goes to bed and gets senior discounts at movie theaters. He thinks an Aston Martin DB9 (brother in law owns one) is a boat of a car and his idea of responsive handling is a Mazda RX7 or greater. The reason for the HP requirement is he had an Audi A4 3.2 and he could not stand how "sluggish" it was. Same with our Outbacks. So in that sense I should have said "faster than an A4 3.2".

Datsun 240z: Would lift off the ground at high speed, but was cool enough for him to not care.

Saab 9-5: Decent overall car, expensive to maintain because it always broke, even though it was FWD it had trouble in the snow due to weight (ie braking).

Subaru Outback (X2): Great car for the everyday and snow, horrible seats, down on power, expensive parts when it did rarely brake down.

Audi A4 3.2: 3rd gear was a meat grinder and cost us/the dealership over 8k in repairs, slow, but good seats and seasonal manners.

Thats all the main/important cars.
__________________________

Edit:
The new Legacy 2.5gt is a good option I forgot about.
 
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Don't feel bad. 80% of BMW 1-series owners think their car is FWD.
 
Famine
Don't feel bad. 80% of BMW 1-series owners think their car is FWD.
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I read that story on Jalopnik... kinda a shame. I think I may have somehow mixed the Sonata with the Mazda 6 (which did/does??? have AWD).
 
niky
Hatchback owners. Don't piss off the coupe-heads... :lol:
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There's a difference between 3 door and 5 door 1-Series owners? Other than they have even fewer friends?
 
I don't know what the rear seat space is like in it, but how about a 2011 Mustang, now it has a couple of great V6 and V8 engines?
 
niky
The 335i has traction control...
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From my experience with them, they just don't seem like cars that would adapt well to snow. Just my opinion.
paskowitz
I changed the op a bit.
We considered that car a couple of years ago. He could not stand the torque steer. Otherwise it was great. Funny, now that it has AWD it is hideous.
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What does he do, get on it a lot from a dead stop? If so, of course it's going to torque steer. But, doesn't really change the fact that it fits all your categories besides 1.

It comes standard w/ 250whp. Seats are terrific w/ warmers, just wear down if not properly treated. Can be had for under $30K & for 10,000 miles and up. Doesn't scream look at me, & it's certainly better looking than the 4G. 4-Door, 3,600 lbs., handles very well, & the durability/maintenance is obviously good thanks to having a Honda engine.

In all honesty, if you can get past the FWD & not jump the gas from a stand still all the time, you'll never know it's FWD to begin with. I know a new owner who thought it was AWD, & this guy drove an Audi for 6 years to substitute his Cobra. There's a reason it's one of the best cars for the money.
 
Great seats? And you have the EVO as an option? Great as in comfortable or great as in suffocating? Though it is your choice, I hope your dad would know better. Seems you're a evo lover, but I will suggest the Subaru Legacy Spec.B. I know you said 250hp but from reading this thread, I'm not seeing why.
A G35/g37 is another suggestion. Great snow cars with right tires.

TrievelA7X
RWD and good in snow? Is this thread a joke?
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No, but your reply is.
 
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BMW goes to great pains to point out DTC's availability on all its models... on the 335i, it actually allows you to accelerate in slippery conditions without peg-legging it or spinning out.

paskowitz
Is the 335xi (coupe or sedan) any good? (as in the AWD has not ruined it?).
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335xi owners are all praises for their cars, and some even track them. But they might be a bit biased. :lol: Still, I guess it's worth looking into.

TheCracker
There's a difference between 3 door and 5 door 1-Series owners? Other than they have even fewer friends?
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I'd say coupe owners would have more friends. Simply because being foolish enough to pack your friends into the back seat of the five door would significantly affect your social standings. (no offense to 1 owners, but I really hate it back there)

paskowitz
I read that story on Jalopnik... kinda a shame. I think I may have somehow mixed the Sonata with the Mazda 6 (which did/does??? have AWD).
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Did. On the previous generation Mazdaspeed6, which actually meets all of your criteria, since it's a 270 hp AWD sedan that handles fairly well and isn't as garishly boy-racer-ish as an EVO. The Mazda6 has the best steering of any Mazda of that year (and that includes the Mazda Miata of the time and the 3), which is saying a whole lot, the direct injection turbocharged engine is programmed for waffle-loads of torque, and the car is a step bigger than the 335i in every way.

800px-MS6.jpg


Only drawback I can think of is that upgradeability, while it is reasonably good thanks to the turbochargers, is limited by the finicky ECU. But COBB Accessport has maps for this car already, and I gather that 300-350 horses is not too difficult to achieve. Reliability is fine as long as you get a secondhand unit that hasn't been abused... most of the issues with Mazdaspeeds (including the failing engine mounts on MS3s) can be linked directly to abuse... so check out any potential buys carefully. (Same can be said of the 335xi or any other secondhand turbocharged car within your price range that you may be looking at).
 
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To clear things up the reason I am asking all the questions is simply my dad is very busy and does not have time to around asking questions about what is good and what is not.

On the Evo seats, I have only been in an 8 and it had what I would consider comfy seats. IDK after the Subaru anything is comfy. Sure they are not like an Audi but they give you good support. Also my dad is a slim guy (remember he works out before he goes to bed every day). So unless they are meant of anorexics he should be fine.

As far as the TL. I know I know. I tried to convince my dad to get one instead of the A4 and now he deeply regrets it. But he just did not like the way it steered (this is his opinion not mine). I still think it should be an option but he for some reason does not like the car.

The Mazda 6 is another car I will add to the list, maybe even the Mazdaspeed6. I have heard good things about both.

It would be great if anyone here owns any of these cars and could share their experiences.
 
paskowitz
As far as the TL. I know I know. I tried to convince my dad to get one instead of the A4 and now he deeply regrets it. But he just did not like the way it steered (this is his opinion not mine). I still think it should be an option but he for some reason does not like the car.
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Fair enough. Some people like it, some don't. :)
The Mazda 6 is another car I will add to the list, maybe even the Mazdaspeed6. I have heard good things about both.
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The MS6 is a great car. Buddy had one til' he lost it. Loved that car.
It would be great if anyone here owns any of these cars and could share their experiences.
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I only pushed the TL because I love mine to death. :p

But, I have been in an Evo X, & imo, I would think the seats are comfy enough considering the car is supposed to be sporty. Ride wise, it is stiff, but it's an Evolution so I'm not sure why someone would expect something else.
I have some experience with BMW's as well, but not enough to give you an owners view of the 335i or M3. Only enough to form the opinion that they're fun cars, but in the snow, they will require some ease.

However, based on your dad's criteria of $30K limit & no more than 50K miles, you'll be very hard pressed to find either BMW for your needs. Now, there are some, but
A) The M3s are usually all convertibles.
B) The 335is are all sedans.
If you can get by these, then you should be able to pull if off. Looking at the current market, the 335i can be had for around 35K on the odo for $25-27K average. But, again, you'll be a bit hard pressed to find the right one as they vary (i.e. 335i sedan; 50K, $30K or 335i Sedan 35K, $25K). I should note these are typically all 2007 models as well.

The M3s will be a lot tougher. They're still holding value & most below $30,000 are pushing 50,000+ miles. You said your dad's sweet spot is $20K, but M3-wise, I'd advise your dad to look elsewhere. If your dad is still interested though, let me know. I've got a close friend with one who can give you a pretty full run down of his experience.

BMW's maintenance wise, are pretty good. The usual service can be pricey, but for the most part, the cars can run without any issues til' then. At least, in my family's 20 years of ownership.
 
Unless it's a 10, I would hesitate to call any EVO "comfortable"... and even the 10 is slightly doubtful... (he'll have to test-drive it)...

The only first-generation Mazda6 that fits the criteria you gave is the Mazdaspeed. The old Mazda6 V6 is a "mere" 220 hp and is slower to 60 mph than an Audi A4 3.2 (which, at 6.5 seconds, is hardly "slow"... which means your Dad is awfully jaded in terms of acceleration expectations...). The current generation Mazda6 V6 comes with the 3.7 liter V6, which possibly meets his needs, but it's FWD only. Still... if you're getting a FWD midsized sedan, they don't really come better mannered than the 6. (at least in the US). The issues with the older generation 6 include a lack of space compared to the Camcordia and a buzzy disposition.

The current generation 6 is much more refined and has some great engines... the 2.5 is more fuel efficient than the doubly woeful 2.0 and 2.3 that went before it, the new gearboxes are great, and the 3.7 liter V6 sounds better than the anemic 3.0 Duratec of old. Oh... and it's much, much faster. Steering doesn't feel quite as organic, but it's still a fair bit more incisive and direct than anything else in that class. Handling is very, very sharp... for a big four-door, that is. Understeer in sharper turns will remind you that it's not a sportscar and that it doesn't wear sportscar rubber.

Again, test-drive first. He may love it, he may not. He may really love the older Mazdaspeed... but I don't know if they're easy to find.

My only niggle with the 335i is the god-awful runflats... but the heavier BMWs don't feel too bad on them, and the 335i is about as heavy as a 3-series can get.
 
paskowitz
To clear things up the reason I am asking all the questions is simply my dad is very busy and does not have time to around asking questions about what is good and what is not.

On the Evo seats, I have only been in an 8 and it had what I would consider comfy seats. IDK after the Subaru anything is comfy. Sure they are not like an Audi but they give you good support. Also my dad is a slim guy (remember he works out before he goes to bed every day). So unless they are meant of anorexics he should be fine.

As far as the TL. I know I know. I tried to convince my dad to get one instead of the A4 and now he deeply regrets it. But he just did not like the way it steered (this is his opinion not mine). I still think it should be an option but he for some reason does not like the car.

The Mazda 6 is another car I will add to the list, maybe even the Mazdaspeed6. I have heard good things about both.

It would be great if anyone here owns any of these cars and could share their experiences.
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Who's Subaru were you driving? No US spec evo has had seats 1/2 as comfortable as an sti/wrx. I'm assuming you're still a teenager and your dad is in his late 30s/early 40s? Mid life crisis sort of deal I suggest 6.0L GTO or a pontiac G8. The evo is what you want so get your dad to test drive it and eliminate it right away, same would go for sti/wrx.
My friend has a MS6, great car. No problems int he 2 years he's had it.
 
paskowitz
Is the 335xi (coupe or sedan) any good? (as in the AWD has not ruined it?).
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I was going to mention the new AWD 3 series. Apparently BMW has made a good system here that is good in snow and if pretty safe. I am only going by word of mouth and a commercial I saw lol.

Also what about the new WRX. Puts out similar times to the sti and seems a little more civilized. Plus the Sedan version looks pretty nice, IMO alot better looking than the WRX hatchback. Go tell your dad to test one out and see how he likes it.
snly4o.jpg

At 224 hp to the (all 4) wheels and a 5.5 second 0-60 its no slouch.
 
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