My personal in-depth view on GTSport, judging from the Beta

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All right, I hope this thread doesn't bother anyone, but I wanted to keep my personal feedback in one place, instead of spreading it over dozens of threads.


What I post here is currently based on Beta 1.05, things might change faster than I can edit here, so please don't shred me if an update happens and this topic won't mention that.


Anyway, I'll make this as short as possible, but with hopefully enough details.

Some of you might know my thread on GTPlanet, I'll use that as a base, but edited to reflect the changes made in 1.05.


Physics:
I cannot comment on FFB, because I have to play with the DS4 thanks to my disability. You also might wanna say that commenting on physics without a wheel or even the ability to drive a car in real life might be stupid, but not only have I experience in most simulators out there with the same input device, I also have a lot of knowledge regarding vehicle dynamics and how cars react in the real world. If you don't believe me, skip this part.

The physics in GTS are kind off a mixed bag for me. The changes made in 1.05 are welcome. Cars don't have that unrealistic oversteer tendency the Beta had before. Still, I feel kinda disconnected from the road. The tires feel extremely stiff and even with a soft setup, the cars jump and slide around too much. I'm not saying it should be easier to drive, but the difficulty comes from the wrong reasons. FWD cars also still lack some kind of lift-off oversteer, the understeer tendency is too big. AWD cars also still have too much traction, not to mention that I think AWD should be banned in Gr.4.


Graphics:
After being negative so much regarding the physics, I'll now be a bit more positive.
The graphics are amazing! There are some slight issues with aliasing and some of the trees (seriously PD, rework the treewalls in the background, please), but that's all still okay. Seriously, I haven't seen any racing game looking this good so far. The tracks are filled with 3D spectators, flag marshalls (all people are well animated too) and background details. Cars reflect light extremely realistic and it's just beautiful when the sun blinds you, while the curbs are reflecting in the windshield.

Yeah, some trees are 2D sprites, but I personally prefer that to X or Y shaped cutout trees (which can be seen in the background too *coughtreewallscough*). The foliage uses some beautiful shaders. The only thing really missing is some proper grass, but I'd also rather have good, plain textures, than weird grass clumps that stand out, like in one of the earlier builds, or in the latest Porsche video.


Some things that should be looked at: Cockpits are too dark, skidmarks are missing (they were almost perfect in GT6), foliage that moves in the wind would look cool and please add the 3D spectators again. :)

Audio:
First off, there are some really cool improvements, like all the mechanical sounds and the backfires. While these are all lacking variety (not all cars sound alike while shifting or backfiring in reality), the sounds that are there use really nice and high quality samples. The track ambient sounds are also neat. Just too bad that the loops restart again when the replay camera changes, that happened already in GT4 and is very noticable at Northern Isle for example.

The engines are still not there though. I don't want to comment on every single car, but the typical drone of past GTs is still prevalent. I could swear some of the audio samples have their roots in GT4. Everything sounds so thin, synthetic and without any life. Also, the mentioned mechanical noises, except for the gear whine and suspension rattling, are (since 1.05 mostly) abstinent in road cars (instead of fully abstinent before). No burbling from exhausts, no noise from the steering wheel, no traction control rattle (that's even missing from race cars). The lack of these things make the cars feel sterile and unreal. There's no immersion from the audio which makes the driving less fun and engaging.

I've already read many people complaining about the game feeling lifeless and blaming the trackside details for it, but like I mentioned above, these are fantastic. It's the audio, simple as that.

The mixing also somehow got worse in some things compared to GT6. Some cars are almost silent while idling and there's no real difference if the car is facing the camera, or "filmed" from behind. Disappointing.


I guess the biggest issues are the lack of proper on-load audio (the cars sound exactly the same while coasting, just the volume changes), intake noises, mixing and things like real backfire audio (yes, the crackling is fine and realistic, but some cars need "gunshot" sound while backfiring).

BoP/Driver Ratings:
I love the implementation of both, even when they both still need a lot of balancing. Cars like the Gr.4 GT-R are just way too quick. Either remove the AWD from the race cars, or BoP the crap out of 'em.

We've seen it's getting worked on, I'm actually optimistic regarding it.


Damage:

We need a damage system! I'm not talking about cosmetic stuff, but technical damage.

The scratches etc. we have now are neat, but when a guy in front of me hits a guardrail with 200 kph, he shouldn't be able to stay in front of me. It would also make intentional crashing less, dare I say "attractive". Yes, there would still be people, trying to ruin everyone's race, but when they always total their car in the first corner, they'll quickly lose their interest in doing so.


General stuff:
I love the flag marshalls and wish flag-rules and safetycars will be implemented properly, including SR punishments.

The UI is amazing, including the menu music, lovely presentation.


The steering animation could use some work. The limited wheel rotation gives a weird optical feedback.


A "hide steering wheel", "hide driver" and "hide both" option would be good for wheel users.


Please add seating position and FOV options (for all views).


An automatic look-to-apex and helmet view option would be neat.


A fully customizable HUD, where you can switch every element on/off would be great too.
 
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3,476
Netherlands
Middelburg
Great review!! Fully agree on all points.

You mentioned "After being negative so much regarding the physics, I'll now be a bit more positive". I think it's absolutely not negative. It's called realistic and you took the time to provide honest and reliable feed back. Also you want this to be a good/best sim racer.

To add on Physics topic: also with a T300 it feels exactly as you described it with the DS4 controller. You wrote metal wheels, I called in earlier other posts 'like your driving constantly on ice'. For some reason you miss the real feeling between car, track, driver.

On some tracks you can drive half asphalt half grass and no difference in speed vs 100% asphalt. On other tracks (e.g. Brands Hatch) if you touch a white line in specific curves (not all curves!) very slightly you get launched immediately.

Also in the beta the presentation and UI somehow embraces you. Others games can learn the way this GT Sport is presented to the driver. Like you're taking a warm bath.

I really hope and expect that PD will further improve this physics behavior and we want this like advertised by PD to be 'the real simulator'. Work to do! I'm sure that also FIA will have high standards for quality physics and definitely not 'just another arcade sim game' for Esports. Don't get me wrong we want the best for GT Sport!!
May be my expectations are too high but primarily caused by the 'hype' and official articles share with us in the pre beta phase. I agree also with your conclusion and hopefully when the final sim (and not game!) is released I can admit that I was totally wrong and this is after all the 'real simulator'. I'm happy to admit I was wrong!!
 

PzR Slim

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If WRC 6, DiRT Rally RallyX mode and F1 2016 are anything to go by then the FIA doesn't care too much about standards for physics.
That's true. However, this has much more FIA involvement rather than licensing so I would have expected more. Maybe not so much with the physics but certainly with the corner cutting that is possible at the moment. I think any race director in the real world would take a dim view of that at the moment.
 
6,063
Palestine
Palestine
BALD_GYE
I agree with all the points you make in your review and would light to highlight the sound and immersion issues you point out.

When you compare racing in cockpit to PCars and AC the audio is dramatically different and every car sounds very different, especially the prototypes and it really helps add to the cars personality. On top of this the cars visibly move about and you get this real sense of aggression that isn't really present in GTS.
In F1 2016 you can even adjust how much camera shake you'd like to have, this means at high speeds the camera and car can visibly vibrate and this really helps give a sense of speed and adds to the idea that your actually in control of this monster of a car.

GTS seems to do what all previous GT games have done and that's have the interior of the car slowly undulate like it's riding some super smooth chill wave and it feels totally disconnected to the actual driving your doing.

I was really hoping that they would either go after the audio or have a more physical interior, but they have done neither. I can't drive these mad GT3 race cars in real life and probably couldn't even if I had access to them, but games like this are suppose to put you behind the wheel and make it feel like your there, even if they aren't super sims and GTS does a really poor job of this IMO.
 
10,168
Germany
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GTAce
The Trees.

I saw plenty of cardboard panels of trees across the surrounding.
Yes, like I said, there are some, but usually further behind. Still, I think GTS has some of the lushest foliage in any racing sim. Only DRIVECLUB and Forza Horizon 3 are better and neither are comparable, since both are also 30fps on console.
 
74
Norway
Norway
I agree with most of your points, except the part about more punishment for crashing. I think it's too harsh today. More than once, I've held my line into a fast corner and a torpedo brakes way too late forcing me to either

a) follow my line and being hit in the back and pushed off track
b) step out of my line, brake and understeer off the track.

Either way I lose points, but in the first example the torpedo loses points as well. I should not be punished for avoiding a crash. In real life, the first example will ruin both our races and the torpedo will be punished. The second will hopefully keep my car safe, but I'll lose a few seconds (and possibly places). In GT, the torpedo comes out of the situation as the winner in both scenarios because he will get pass me both if he crashes into me or if I drive off the track on purpose.

What GT Sport needs is realistic damage modelling! Yes, the torpedo might ruin your entire race, but he will also ruin his own race and therefore I believe it will be less reckless driving with damage. At least in the races with higher "SR-point" drivers.
 

Castrol96

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Yes, like I said, there are some, but usually further behind. Still, I think GTS has some of the lushest foliage in any racing sim. Only DRIVECLUB and Forza Horizon 3 are better and neither are comparable, since both are also 30fps on console.

Tree trees are a nice mix of 2D, and 3D but in some areas Nurburgring for an example, you see a flat plane with a texture with a array of trees, also this is used in hill/mountain areas. Still, at high speed and distances its not much of a concern.
 
10,168
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GTAce
What GT Sport needs is realistic damage modelling! Yes, the torpedo might ruin your entire race, but he will also ruin his own race and therefore I believe it will be less reckless driving with damage. At least in the races with higher "SR-point" drivers.
Yes, definitely. Realistic, or at least punishing damage modeling would be a must.
Tree trees are a nice mix of 2D, and 3D but in some areas Nurburgring for an example, you see a flat plane with a texture with a array of trees, also this is used in hill/mountain areas. Still, at high speed and distances its not much of a concern.
Those are the treewalls I mentioned. They are just walls with a tree texture and they're not really the best looking ones.
 
10,168
Germany
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GTAce
@G.T.Ace The uncontrollable snap oversteer is a glitch in the physics that was in GT6, it mostly effected MR cars that were on racing softs, cars like the Audi R8 LMS and quite a few BMWs like the 135i suffered from it the most, seems they haven't fixed it.
I wouldn't call it a glitch, it seems to be hard coded into the physics.

I also forgot something pretty important regarding FWD cars: There's no lift-off oversteer at all, the heck?
Powerful FWD cars like the Scirocco should have some sort of butt swinging when you lift off, but the cars in GTS just understeer into oblivion until you are slow enough to take the corners.
 
618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
I wouldn't call it a glitch, it seems to be hard coded into the physics.

I'd like to know if that's the handling characteristic that was intended for the MRs and would hate PD to change it because you can get these cars to be acceptable in GT6 without having to go too extreme with the setup, unlike the FRs using crazy negative rear toe just to get an understeer-neutral balance. If it was intended, hopefully someone will just quickly change a few things so that their new, more neutral balance is the default settings and acceptable to drive, but with the oversteer lurking still.

The oversteer can be limited by moving the ballast rearwards and by making other small adjustments to get the rear tyres to bite and find their slip angle.
 
932
United States
Tennessee
Bobert962C
Also the Audi TTS seriously sounds like a vacuum cleaner. Yeah, that meme is old etc. but damn...
Have you tried the Volkswagen VGT? It sounds like it has two audio sample going at the same time. Honestly, it sounds like a satanic vacuum cleaner.
 
8,955
United States
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BasedAckbar
Have you tried the Volkswagen VGT? It sounds like it has two audio sample going at the same time. Honestly, it sounds like a satanic vacuum cleaner.

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I'm really starting to think this vacuum cleaner thing is some really old junk opinion from decades ago that people found "funny" and decided to keep repeating year after year, well after it lost all meaning. Wait a minute, that's the definition of a meme! Huh. It wasn't funny then, and it isn't funny now.

"Realistic" "damage" isn't funny either. That one might even be worse than the sound one, because I have seen what "realistic" "damage" actually means and I want it out of as many racing games as is physically possible.
 
11,920
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Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
I'm sure that also FIA will have high standards for quality physics...

I'd be very surprised if the FIA have any standards for the quality of the physics. I'm not even being rude, I just don't think that it's something that they care enough about to bother including a requirement that they have oversight on it. This is a marketing campaign for them, and I suspect they're happy to leave such things to Polyphony (who almost certainly have more experience with game physics than the FIA).

I'm really starting to think this vacuum cleaner thing is some really old junk opinion from decades ago that people found "funny" and decided to keep repeating year after year, well after it lost all meaning. Wait a minute, that's the definition of a meme! Huh. It wasn't funny then, and it isn't funny now.

In many ways it's not really intended to be funny. Gran Turismo has historically had a problem with droning, pitch shifted sounds. It's hard to describe, but it is in many ways similar to the kind of sounds that vacuum cleaners make.

GTS is doing better, but some cars still have that simplistic droning sound, like there's a little motor stuck in a box somewhere just going up and down the rev range. I think a lot of it is to do with the lack of all the "extra" noises that go on from both the engine and the car when you're driving. If you just listen to engine noise, it's going to sound like an item that is all engine, like a vacuum cleaner or a lawn mower. What makes cars sound different is all the other stuff that vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers don't have.

"Realistic" "damage" isn't funny either. That one might even be worse than the sound one, because I have seen what "realistic" "damage" actually means and I want it out of as many racing games as is physically possible.

Yes, well, there's plenty of games out there with that. Most games with damage even allow you to switch it off.

If a game is attempting to replicate motorsport, a damage system is not optional. It's a massive part of motorsport, and basically defines a lot of the tactics used. Without it, it's not motorsport. Which is fine, unless you're trying to establish a FIA backed online motorsports championship.
 

Northstar

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"Realistic" "damage" isn't funny either. That one might even be worse than the sound one, because I have seen what "realistic" "damage" actually means and I want it out of as many racing games as is physically possible.

To me at least realistic damage is far beyond the "dented up fenders" variety. If you constantly mess up shifts, your transmission should fail. Brakes should fade the longer a race goes on, even faster if you abuse them. Locking the brakes should cause tires to flat spot. Bashing the front of the car should damage the radiator causing the engine to overheat.

It's not an attempt at being funny, it's wanting the previous king of the racing game world to re-take the crown (which I would say is up for grabs at this point). Providing an insanely in-depth damage model would help in my view.
 

Johnnypenso

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People have a tendency to focus on the visual when it comes to damage and that's only a part of it, a small part IMO. Much more important is the mechanical damage like this ^^^ that requires no visual representation but does require some effort in the code. It makes the simulation much deeper and would make the broadcasts of the races much more entertaining as well. As it is at the moment, all the broadcasters have to talk about is the racing, and, if it isn't toe to toe it'll be quite boring. Adding in flat spotted tires, a transmission about to blow, brakes starting to fade, a little understeer from wearing out the front tires, etc. and it would make for a considerably more exciting race with a great deal more drama.
 
10,168
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GTAce
I'd like to know if that's the handling characteristic that was intended for the MRs and would hate PD to change it because you can get these cars to be acceptable in GT6 without having to go too extreme with the setup, unlike the FRs using crazy negative rear toe just to get an understeer-neutral balance. If it was intended, hopefully someone will just quickly change a few things so that their new, more neutral balance is the default settings and acceptable to drive, but with the oversteer lurking still.

The oversteer can be limited by moving the ballast rearwards and by making other small adjustments to get the rear tyres to bite and find their slip angle.
I assume you haven't played Sport so far, is that right? Because not only is the oversteer tendency in GTS much more prominent than in GT6, you also cannot move the ballast around.
Have you tried the Volkswagen VGT? It sounds like it has two audio sample going at the same time. Honestly, it sounds like a satanic vacuum cleaner.
Don't have it, but I've seen videos and yeah, it sounds broken, fuzzy and electronic.
I'm really starting to think this vacuum cleaner thing is some really old junk opinion from decades ago that people found "funny" and decided to keep repeating year after year, well after it lost all meaning. Wait a minute, that's the definition of a meme! Huh. It wasn't funny then, and it isn't funny now.

"Realistic" "damage" isn't funny either. That one might even be worse than the sound one, because I have seen what "realistic" "damage" actually means and I want it out of as many racing games as is physically possible.
Have you heard the TTS? While I'm a huge critique of the sound in GT, I usually don't use the vacuum cleaner comparison, but the TTS does sound like one, really. Almost like it only uses an intake samples without any exhaust noise.
 
618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
I assume you haven't played Sport so far, is that right? Because not only is the oversteer tendency in GTS much more prominent than in GT6, you also cannot move the ballast around.

No I haven't played GTS Beta yet. I know in GT6 that cars like the Audi R8 LMS or Ford GT Test Car aren't really usable as standard and need quite a few adjustments to get them to be really good in the majority of corners on any given track but they still have this inherent oversteer in usually one corner at least which causes you to put up with it or just drive more carefully....but it's a worthwhile compromise overall IMO.

You say that oversteer is more prominent in GTS...it makes you wonder why this might be considering PD have had many many years simulating the handling of these cars.....could it be that they might just be getting closer to reality with many or some cars and that the very nature of playing a game at home inevitably brings out the worst in them? I'd like to think they have somebody testing each car so that it is somewhat user friendly, using a decent steering wheel at least.
 
10,168
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GTAce
No I haven't played GTS Beta yet. I know in GT6 that cars like the Audi R8 LMS or Ford GT Test Car aren't really usable as standard and need quite a few adjustments to get them to be really good in the majority of corners on any given track but they still have this inherent oversteer in usually one corner at least which causes you to put up with it or just drive more carefully....but it's a worthwhile compromise overall IMO.

You say that oversteer is more prominent in GTS...it makes you wonder why this might be considering PD have had many many years simulating the handling of these cars.....could it be that they might just be getting closer to reality with many or some cars and that the very nature of playing a game at home inevitably brings out the worst in them? I'd like to think they have somebody testing each car so that it is somewhat user friendly, using a decent steering wheel at least.
What happens in GTS has nothing to do with more realism.
Cars snap oversteer in 3rd and 4th gear, sometimes even without applying full throttle.
Of course powerful GT cars should have a tendency to oversteer, but it shouldn't happen so sudden, like out of nothing.

Regarding the damage: It's needed, jebus. I had a race on the Nordschleife today and someone in front of me had zero consequences after hitting the guard rail twice and really hard. He blocked me when I tried to pass, so I wasn't able to overtake on the tight track. Not even his SR got punished.

Right now, I find the races incredibly frustrating. There are too many people just pushing you off-track in corners, without any sort of punishment, some even gain SR.
 
618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
What happens in GTS has nothing to do with more realism.
Cars snap oversteer in 3rd and 4th gear, sometimes even without applying full throttle.
Of course powerful GT cars should have a tendency to oversteer, but it shouldn't happen so sudden, like out of nothing.

Regarding the damage: It's needed, jebus. I had a race on the Nordschleife today and someone in front of me had zero consequences after hitting the guard rail twice and really hard. He blocked me when I tried to pass, so I wasn't able to overtake on the tight track. Not even his SR got punished.

Right now, I find the races incredibly frustrating. There are too many people just pushing you off-track in corners, without any sort of punishment, some even gain SR.

Here's a video of the R8 at Brands and whilst the tail steps out a little bit every other corner whilst losing a tiny amount of time, I wouldn't describe it as snap oversteer. It's extremely hard to get a car perfectly balanced and I just think it's the inherent characteristic of the R8 that has to be put up with because the benefits of it then being neutral in corners that induce understeer are huge especially when your rivals might be struggling with understeer in those particular corners driving a different car.

I've seen quite a lot of online races and it looks a nightmare for anyone driving consistently, so why are so many of you having to mix it with those that are erratic? Damage would be a good thing.

 
10,168
Germany
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GTAce
First of all @DaBomb330 is a really, really outstanding driver, but you're missing the point.
Of course you can drive a clean lap with the Audi, or any car in GTS, but the driving techniques you have to utilize for that are unrealistic. The video you posted is also a race against the really lackluster AI. Once you have to push on the limit 100% these flaws are much more noticable. Have to leave the racing line? Are you in the slipstream losing aero-grip and gain speed? Well, good luck with clean driving.
 
618
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
@G.T.Ace

I'm not missing the point; I know Dabomb is a really good driver. I think snap oversteer is too aggressive a description. I'd describe snap oversteer as breaking away with no or very very little warning at all, and if that were the case, Dabomb wouldn't have been able to post this video.

And I know that's the AI...it was just to show the R8 in action.