Necessary Evil?

[sesselpupser]

Hello all,

I've been thinking lately about Exploits, De-Restricted Seasonal Events and B-Spec. I've owned and played every major GT release since the first, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of what GT games are supposed to be like, and GT5 definitely fits that formula.

Sony and PD obviously wanted GT5 to sell in huge numbers, so they made sure they got the point across that this game had a great physics engine, loads of cars and amazing graphics; they kind of left out the RPG part and didn't explain the somewhat crazy levelling system and 'economy'. That meant, as far as I can tell, that a lot of people who had never played GT before bought the game and didn't realise that it's actually a LOT of work to accumulate cars they actually want to drive at the rate of, say, Forza 3 (which gives you a car every time you level up, and they're almost always good; GT5's prize cars are a bit... Yeah), and other gamers who had played GT in the past but not loved it so much may have been lured in with the advertising campaign - There is nothing wrong with advertising a game, by the way, but I'm just trying to say that it seems there could be a lot of people who bought GT5 not knowing how it was structured.

With this in mind, I think the exploits, de-restricted seasonal events and B-Spec are necessary evils. Of course, you can say 'casual gamers shouldn't play GT5' or something like that, but the fact is they paid their money for the game, and as such will feel ripped off if they don't have the time to invest or just want to have cars they can't afford without working for them. Not many racing games are this much work. Exploits, seasonal events and B-Spec allow them to achieve what they want at the pace they want to achieve it at.

Look at it this way. If these less die-hard GT players feel they've been ripped off, they won't buy GT6 unless major changes are made. Major changes equals GT6 being a lot easier to progress in than GT5, and I don't know about you but I enjoy the challenge and I don't want the game to be over too quickly. Therefore, in a way, by turning a blind eye to the exploits and by keeping seasonal events de-restricted, PD are allowing gamers to get their money's worth while at the same time allowing the loyal fans to play GT5 just as they did every other GT game before it without having to cater for anyone else.


So while I'm not trying to say that everyone who is against these things is wrong, I am trying to say that they might be necessary to ensure that GT6 is able to be a true GT game and not toned down to ensure good sales. I don't think any of us who have been around since GT4 and before want to see GT6 turn into Forza (where you can complete the career mode with prize cars and nothing else) or Need For Speed (where you unlock rather than buy cars (or at least did last time I played it)).

I'm interested to know what other people think of this, but I don't want it to turn into another argument thread. I'm sure if any mods think this is just unnecessary they'll lock it anyway.

 

[Kwicko]

Used to be that you could run the same series or championships over and over, and win a prize car every time, and it would be usually one of five or so prize cars that rotated through for that event.

And you could sell every single car you got.

And you could clear out all your trophies if you wanted to.

Be nice to see some of that come back.


It sometimes feels like Kaz and PD are working at cross purposes, though. I get the feeling Kaz wants to make the game MORE immersive, MORE involved, MORE realistic, while PD wants to open it up to more mass market potential in hopes of gaining a much wider audience. Kaz seems to want to focus more on the hardcore racer, while PD want to just get as many people buying and playing as possible.

The devil is in finding the compromise between those two seemingly-contradictory goals.

 

[Exorcet]

The devil is in finding the compromise between those two seemingly-contradictory goals.

Options list.

I'll freely admit, I was an elitist idiot [this is directed at no one but me] before GT5P came out, and I cursed standard physics, but it's things like a dropbox that lets you choose the physics that would make GT5 really great.

 

[Destinkeys]

I just don't see what is so darn fired complicated about thinking up another 300 A-Spec events. Once that is done, and they are added to the game's menu system, that's it. Problem solved, pat on the back, home to the wife and nippers, job well done...

Every other 'solution' that PD have come up with is WAY more complicated and FAR less effective.

 

[sk0pe]

Used to be that you could run the same series or championships over and over, and win a prize car every time, and it would be usually one of five or so prize cars that rotated through for that event.

And you could sell every single car you got.

And you could clear out all your trophies if you wanted to.

Be nice to see some of that come back.


It sometimes feels like Kaz and PD are working at cross purposes, though. I get the feeling Kaz wants to make the game MORE immersive, MORE involved, MORE realistic, while PD wants to open it up to more mass market potential in hopes of gaining a much wider audience. Kaz seems to want to focus more on the hardcore racer, while PD want to just get as many people buying and playing as possible.

The devil is in finding the compromise between those two seemingly-contradictory goals.

Ahh i remember getting prize car after prize car and selling it.

But why do you refer to Kaz and PD seperately ? Kaz is something like Senior Vice president at Sony and if im not mistake the owner/CEO/creator of Polyphony Digital. You seem to think they go in different directions when they are the same thing.
What i think your indirectly referring to is Kaz's struggle with the PS3 hardware and wanting it to be as immersive and realistic as possible while at the same time maintaining 60FPS @ 1080p, he has said before that Premium Cars are more suited to PS4 and were a late addition (2-3 years into development) once he realised that he could make them .

The game is freaking stunning and still just getting started, with 'GT driver club' around the corner and Kaz stating that 'GT5 will evolve' it's " just gettting started " - I sure am excited about the future for GT5, it's the first time we have had online capabilities, and im sure a lot of thought has gone into future online updates / add on's.

The game is best appreciated coming home after work, sitting down in your seat in front of ur g27 ( or whatever wheel ) , putting on Practice mode - One Make Race, Nurburgring Nordschleife ( time change ), choose favourite car to drive, Cockpit view - NO HUD and just sit back and enjoy the stunning experience that is GT5. It really takes my breath away sometimes, especially those in-car replays where you can be in cockpit view but not the normal cockpit view, the detail is simply stunning and different angles on every car (check the go kart detail and driver movements)

 

[jjaisli]

Looking a the seasonal events and the amount of CR they're supposed to pay out vs what they actually do, seeing as how many of the prize cars for current A-Spec events don't actually match the event, thinking about how many tracks are not even part of any A-Spec events, along with the many bugs, and promise of regular updates, it's pretty clear that the game that comes on the disc is not really the game PD intended to ship.

It's not too difficult to assume after 5 years, PD were likely under tremendous pressure to get the game out the door. And the seasonal events are probably events which were supposed to be part of A-spec and for whatever reason, never made the cut.

 

[sk0pe]

Looking a the seasonal events and the amount of CR they're supposed to pay out vs what they actually do, seeing as how many of the prize cars for current A-Spec events don't actually match the event, thinking about how many tracks are not even part of any A-Spec events, along with the many bugs, and promise of regular updates, it's pretty clear that the game that comes on the disc is not really the game PD intended to ship.

It's not too difficult to assume after 5 years, PD were likely under tremendous pressure to get the game out the door. And the seasonal events are probably events which were supposed to be part of A-spec and for whatever reason, never made the cut.

Have you seen where the seasonal event tab is? There was clearly a space set aside for them, yes under tremendous pressure to get out before christmas but don't underestimate him, he understand's people want longevity + Variety in a game ( have you ever played a gt game before ?) why do people not have faith that future races and events will be added online.
Why would he want to give EVERYTHING all at once, every seasonal event, gt drivers clubs, new events etc all at start? So people can grind it 24/7 then complain because there is no more events? No instead we get new seasonal events every fortnight and soon to be weekly, i personally love that new events pop up and force you to drive cars you otherwise wouldn't.

Love the western persons need for having everything and every event kaz has conceived in his head, every update, every add on, all the possible free DLC they have to have it right now. People just can't be happy playing the game, and enjoying the new events and updates when they come along to keep the game fresh and new.

Why don't we have as many A-spec as GT4 ? Because we have the ability to add online events now so he obviously wants to take the series to the more online side of things,updating and adding events later. If you have a PS3 then you have broadband, if not you stole your PS3 so no-one complain about " Not everyone has the internet" lol. That one is old.

 

[Kwicko]

Ahh i remember getting prize car after prize car and selling it.

But why do you refer to Kaz and PD seperately ? Kaz is something like Senior Vice president at Sony and if im not mistake the owner/CEO/creator of Polyphony Digital. You seem to think they go in different directions when they are the same thing.

Apologies - I tend to think of Kaz as "the soul" of the GT franchise, and tend to think of Sony & PD as the business side. I should probably have said that SONY wanted the game to go to a wider audience, and Kaz/PD want it more focused.

What i think your indirectly referring to is Kaz's struggle with the PS3 hardware and wanting it to be as immersive and realistic as possible while at the same time maintaining 60FPS @ 1080p, he has said before that Premium Cars are more suited to PS4 and were a late addition (2-3 years into development) once he realised that he could make them .

Yup, he's constantly pushing the envelope on what the current platform can support, whatever platform that is at the time.

The game is freaking stunning and still just getting started, with 'GT driver club' around the corner and Kaz stating that 'GT5 will evolve' it's " just gettting started " - I sure am excited about the future for GT5, it's the first time we have had online capabilities, and im sure a lot of thought has gone into future online updates / add on's.

I don't disagree with any particular point, sir.

I'm not *disappointed* with the game, but there were things in previous versions that really didn't need fixing, but that got "fixed" anyway. And I'm betting that "unfixing" them could be just a simple patch away...

And while it could be somewhat annoying getting that same Toyota Corolla *again* after winning a series, at least you could take some comfort in immediately selling it!

 

[sk0pe]

I'm not *disappointed* with the game, but there were things in previous versions that really didn't need fixing, but that got "fixed" anyway. And I'm betting that "unfixing" them could be just a simple patch away...

And while it could be somewhat annoying getting that same Toyota Corolla *again* after winning a series, at least you could take some comfort in immediately selling it!

I can relate to this a lot, i can't disagree there and yes i think 'Sony' was the word you were looking for, rather than PD

 

[jjaisli]

Have you seen where the seasonal event tab is? There was clearly a space set aside for them, yes under tremendous pressure to get out before christmas but don't underestimate him, he understand's people want longevity + Variety in a game ( have you ever played a gt game before ?) why do people not have faith that future races and events will be added online.
Why would he want to give EVERYTHING all at once, every seasonal event, gt drivers clubs, new events etc all at start? So people can grind it 24/7 then complain because there is no more events? No instead we get new seasonal events every fortnight and soon to be weekly, i personally love that new events pop up and force you to drive cars you otherwise wouldn't.

Love the western persons need for having everything and every event kaz has conceived in his head, every update, every add on, all the possible free DLC they have to have it right now. People just can't be happy playing the game, and enjoying the new events and updates when they come along to keep the game fresh and new.

Why don't we have as many A-spec as GT4 ? Because we have the ability to add online events now so he obviously wants to take the series to the more online side of things,updating and adding events later. If you have a PS3 then you have broadband, if not you stole your PS3 so no-one complain about " Not everyone has the internet" lol. That one is old.

The only GT game I played before GT5 was Prologue. But in a way, this is an advantage because I have no emotional attachment to the series and can look at things objectively. Despite the fact that I like it very much, to me, it's just another racing game out there among many. It's not the first racing game I played and it won't be the last.

And when it comes down to it, from Sony's perspective, that of the producer, it's just business. People have short attention spans. The average person who bought GT5 is not sitting in a racing cockpit with a T500RS. The average person is a casual gamer who probably likes cars and is sitting on their couch with a DS3 in hand. And GT5 has to compete for their attention with any other game. The first few months in a game's lifespan are what's important for sales. That's just the way the world works. You want to say that 'empty' space was designed for seasonal events, fine, I have no argument. But of the seasonal events we've seen so far, I stand by what I said. I believe they were supposed to be part of the game from the beginning. Not everybody has a broadband connection. You may find this hard to believe but there are a lot of people out there who never take their PS3 online. Sony is well aware of this. And it wouldn't surprise me to see a new edition of GT5 sometime next year with many of the seasonal events included.

Personally, I could care less if the seasonal events were or weren't supposed to be there from the beginning. I think the entire A-spec is a big waste of time. (Don't even get me started on B-spec). For me, the only thing that matters is online racing in a controlled setting. And I'm not the only one who feels this way. GT5 has impressive physics--probably the best I've experienced in a console game. But if PD want to attract more serious sim racers, the whole RPG aspect of the game is huge deterrent. So in that sense, I agree with the OP. It's nice to have other options to be able to progress. Not everybody is interested in sitting there, grinding away just to unlock cars.

 

[JackC8]

The problem is that the experience and levelling system seems to be designed for a game with a career mode that's about 5 times as long as GT5. So you're just doing the same things over and over and over. I guess PD thinks that's clever because it separates the fanboys from the people who just want to have fun playing a racing video game, but really it's just pure laziness on the developer's part.

I'm playing Dead Space 2 right now. If they used the same philosophy as Polyphony Digital, then getting the platinum would involve beating the game on easy difficulty, 15 times in a row.

 

[Midnight Snacks]

The average person is a casual gamer who probably likes cars and is sitting on their couch with a DS3 in hand. And GT5 has to compete for their attention with any other game. The first few months in a game's lifespan are what's important for sales.

That is completely correct, most people who buy video games won't play them for more than a few months. GT5 isn't short by any means for the average player. It's only the hardcore fans who are suffering.

 

[Kwicko]

I can relate to this a lot, i can't disagree there and yes i think 'Sony' was the word you were looking for, rather than PD

Yup, I tend to think of PD as being part of Sony, rather than Kaz as being part of PD. I need to alter my thinking.

 

[Destinkeys]

The average casual gamer with a DS3 is playing Hot Pursuit. Or Blur. Or Mod Nation. GT has NEVER catered to that crowd. Only, this time, they didn't cater to the crowd they already HAD, either...

I agree with JackC8... this progress structure feels like it was designed for a game, well, maybe FOUR times longer than it is. Now, see my sig... see where I'm going with this?!

Grinding, means doing the same thing, over and over, to level up. 400 new events means you level up WITHOUT doing the same thing twice. Problem solved. Seasonal Events and Drivers' Clubs and the like are all well and good if they come AFTER the basic game progression is fixed to avoid grinding. And then, they don't need to be rewarded at totally excessive amounts, either. The reward should be appropriate to the level of difficulty they entail. I dunno about you, but that seems both logical and fair. And what ELSE should a progress path be but that?

No-one has yet explained to me why it is so difficult to come up with another 400 A-Spec events. They don't need cut scenes, there are PLENTY of cars left over to reward them with (one of the ONLY advantages to 1000 cars, to be honest!), they merely need a name, a structure, and a reward. Done...

Why have PD chosen to inflict on us these half-baked 'solutions' that solve nothing, and make more problems and fracturing of the game's logic than when they weren't in, while the simplest, easiest, most logical solution gets ignored?

If someone can explain this to me, you're a better man than me!

 

[Waltermydoinher]

The leveling is a bit ridiculous. It takes about 10 million XP Pnts to get to lvl 35. It takes ANOTHER 20 MILLION from that point to get to lvl 40. Even getting gold in every event available only gets you to the mid 30's. From that point on, there are really no further events (Except seasonal's) from which to earn credits/XP. At that point you're forced to "GRIND" your way to get to the Endurance 24hr events. MY X1 has over 30,000 miles on it from Grinding at the Dream Car Challenge to get the XP necessary to be able to compete in and complete the 24hr endurance races. That's pretty ridiculous.

 

[ElSecundo]

Neema-t, I think you're right on target, and this ends up being at the heart of the disagreement between dupers and non-dupers.

Let me explain:

Many people buy and play GT5 as a leisure activity. Some buy it as a game. All games are leisure activities, but not all leisure activities are games.

Dupers duplicate cars not to get to the end of the game faster, or to beat everyone else, they do it because that's how they want to play with the thing they bought (GT5)

Non-dupers are playing GT5 as a game, so everything not achieved through game play is technically a 'cheat'.

But PD has made this 'game' with equal parts game, and equal parts leisure activity -- to enjoy it, you don't have to play the 'game' portion at all.

If you've ever seen kids break out a Monopoly board, you know what I mean. Sometimes, they don't want to play the game -- all they want to do is get out the metal race car and go 'vroom vroom' around the living room with it.

So the dupers are essentially going 'vroom vroom' with the game pieces, and there's no such thing as cheating at the 'vroom vroom' game. You can't cheat at an activity, you can only cheat in competition. Others see it as cheating, because they see GT5 as a game only.

The seasonal events seem to be built to allow the casual player to play the game as much as they want without running into the barriers set up by the career-mode game play.

OK, that took way too long. Sorry for the long post, but I agree completely with your premise. 👍

 

[jjaisli]

The average casual gamer with a DS3 is playing Hot Pursuit. Or Blur. Or Mod Nation. GT has NEVER catered to that crowd. Only, this time, they didn't cater to the crowd they already HAD, either...

Destinkeys, life is mostly grey area and not black and white. But this time, I'll come out and say it. You are absolutely, completely, 100% wrong with this statement. ALL console games are basically designed and catered toward casual gamers. But some appeal to hard core gamers of specific interests as well. Do you really think that there are no casual gamers playing GT5? Do you really think PD didn't design this game with casual gamers in mind? If that were the case:

1. There would be no DS3 support--only wheels.
2. The AI would be much faster.
3. There would be no such assist as 'skid recovery'
4. We'd have no need for photo mode.
5. We wouldn't have to 'buy' cars, they'd all be unlocked from the beginning.
6. Cars wouldn't 'ghost out' in certain circumstances.
7. You wouldn't be able to turn off damage.
8. There would be no 'racing line'.
9. The game would boot you from the lobby if you tried to drive backwards.
10. There wouldn't be any 'in game music'.

Need I go on? I would guess less than 20% of people who bought any game in the GT series are really 'hard core'. Casual gamers make up the largest majority of people buying console games. ANY console games. GT may have a lower percentage than others. But Sony know full well there are a wide range of people playing GT with various skill levels. And the game is designed to be easy enough to play with with some assists on. Remember GT5 sits on the same shelf as games like NFS and Mario cart and very often, the people buying it don't necessarily make a distinction. And some probably don't even make a distinction AFTER they play it. Other than to say, "Gee, it looks nice".

 

[sk0pe]

Some well constructed arguments to my points raised, too many too quote.

I personally do think everyone needs to chill for a month or two and see what comes in the updates, if after 2-3 months there's not more A-spec events or online changes drastically with lots more things like 'gt drivers club' then i think i could officially say i'm a little dissapointed with the game.

I am convinced though that the game is built around the online generation and will be constantly changed.

To the person who said some people don't use ps3 online? Maybe in 2007,this is 2011 90-95% of ps3 owners would have access to the internet, the cost alone of a ps3 would indicate they have access to the internet or could do if they chose.

 

[Destinkeys]

So you are equating GT5 and Mod Nation or Mario Kart? LOL!

I guess CoD and Pacman rate equally, too. Both video games, aren't they..?!

Look, all I have ever said is, keep the exploits OFFLINE. How anyone else wants to play the game (have a leisure activity, whatever) by themselves is between them and God. Nothing to do with me at all. By all means, unlock all 1000 cars in Arcade Mode, and have at it..!

But someone sits down in front of me with a chess set, I am not going to understand if he wants to play by his own rules, and all the pawns are queens. He bought a chess set, and came out to play chess players. He should play chess. Or go home and play it the way he wants by himself.

THAT'S what duping does to online. It changes the game, upsets the balance. Don't ask me to be tolerant if someone has got a chess set, but wants me to play HIS version of the game...

 

[jjaisli]

To the person who said some people don't use ps3 online? Maybe in 2007,this is 2011 90-95% of ps3 owners would have access to the internet, the cost alone of a ps3 would indicate they have access to the internet or could do if they chose.

Are you assuming this or do you have a statistic to back it up? I'm trying to find one myself but I can tell you, it's not even close to 95%.

 

[jjaisli]

So you are equating GT5 and Mod Nation or Mario Kart? LOL!

I guess CoD and Pacman rate equally, too. Both video games, aren't they..?!

Look, all I have ever said is, keep the exploits OFFLINE. How anyone else wants to play the game (have a leisure activity, whatever) by themselves is between them and God. Nothing to do with me at all. By all means, unlock all 1000 cars in Arcade Mode, and have at it..!

But someone sits down in front of me with a chess set, I am not going to understand if he wants to play by his own rules, and all the pawns are queens. He bought a chess set, and came out to play chess players. He should play chess. Or go home and play it the way he wants by himself.

THAT'S what duping does to online. It changes the game, upsets the balance. Don't ask me to be tolerant if someone has got a chess set, but wants me to play HIS version of the game...

Naturally, you'd try to turn this into an anti-duping thread. I'm done.

 

[Destinkeys]

Some well constructed arguments to my points raised, too many too quote.

I personally do think everyone needs to chill for a month or two and see what comes in the updates, if after 2-3 months there's not more A-spec events or online changes drastically with lots more things like 'gt drivers club' then i think i could officially say i'm a little dissapointed with the game.

I am convinced though that the game is built around the online generation and will be constantly changed.

To the person who said some people don't use ps3 online? Maybe in 2007,this is 2011 90-95% of ps3 owners would have access to the internet, the cost alone of a ps3 would indicate they have access to the internet or could do if they chose.

I fear that, if the easiest solution isn't done straight away, while precious development time is spent on things that apparently NO-ONE really wants (at least in the form that PD want to give it us in), we are looking at the future NOW. There was a poll up here a couple of weeks ago (I think) that basically had only 25% of respondents saying they would CARE if B-Spec were dropped completely. That's an epic fail, by any measure. But PD are working on a browser front end for a mode that few even LIKE. There's a massive disconnect between the game makers and the game players.

Not exactly encouraging...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I've already shut down one thread like this tonight because it got out of hand. This thread is already showing the same signs. If you can't behave yourselves, I'll just close the thread and start issuing warnings and infractions. Some of you - and you know who you are - cannot afford another infraction to your name.

 

[Destinkeys]

Would any moderator like to post somewhere exactly what IS and isn't acceptable? Because I have seen outrageous flaming and some pretty stiff language used that goes completely unremarked, whereas other threads get closed for seemingly mild arguments. I am willing to abide by anything set forth, but as of yet, I haven't seen any consistency of enforcement.

So... Where's the line?

Can you quote a flame you thought acceptable, and one you didn't, just to let us know where to stop?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's not acceptable when you start slinging insults at one another.

 

[corne]

There was a poll up here a couple of weeks ago (I think) that basically had only 25% of respondents saying they would CARE if B-Spec were dropped completely. That's an epic fail, by any measure. But PD are working on a browser front end for a mode that few even LIKE. There's a massive disconnect between the game makers and the game players.

Well if that is representative of the whole of GT5 users then that's over 1 million people who may want it. Also just because PD are working on that, it doesn't mean they aren't doing anything else.

As for being a necessary evil, then yes, the glitches/exploits may be necessary to keep the game appealing for a considerable percentage of people who have bought it; but I think as Sony/PD would be well aware they need to make this game appeal to that crowd as well, in order for it the be the commercial success they wanted, then the game should have been structured in a way to negate the need for them.

 

[McClarenDesign]

I remember when GTPSP came out, Kaz mentioned that he'd like to see an actual ownership of a car- meaning that cars would carry over from game to game. Cars you bought in PSP can be transfered over to GT5, so hopefully cars here would be transfered over to GT6.

This would make sense, then, as most people that have played the previous titles would want their favorite cars from said titles.

However.... cars from Prologue DID'NT transfer, as some of us hoped they would.

If GT6 builds upon GT5 like 4 did from 3, then we're in for a huge treat, and all this will be totally worth it.

 

[ElSecundo]

If GT6 builds upon GT5 like 4 did from 3, then we're in for a huge treat, and all this will be totally worth it.

It might be totally necessary to do it this way, because PD was planning on a total of about 10,000 cars for GT5. That's quite a few, so stretching it out over GT6 would buy them a lot of time to fill out that list.

 

[corne]

However.... cars from Prologue DID'NT transfer, as some of us hoped they would.

Was this just due to the fact that anybody could buy a save from Ebay with all cars and maximum money though. I think transferring cars was intended to be possible but was canned because of this, and duping could have a similar effect on transferring cars from GT5 to GT6.

 

[McClarenDesign]

It might be totally necessary to do it this way, because PD was planning on a total of about 10,000 cars for GT5. That's quite a few, so stretching it out over GT6 would buy them a lot of time to fill out that list.

If it really does take 6 months/car, it sounds about right. The real question is whether or not GT6 will be out on the PS3, or the PS4. Place your bets now, because with the threats from hackers, the relative "flop" of sales, low self confidence (i.e. customer feedback requests) and relative "unfinished" feel of the game, it's anyone's guess.