Need everyone's input on this situation. 2 Possible outcomes

[Famine]

Why yes, I certainly do. I know a lot of 10-15-year-old 100k-150k mile Miatas that were bought for peanuts and get the living piss driven out of them on a regular basis and hold up beautifully.

Yup. Ellie, with whom we recently parted, was a 1998 Mk1 Berkeley. She either got the living piss driven out of her daily by Milford Cubicle or me (with the 1998 MX-3 and occasionally the ST220 getting the same treatment from the other - it depended on what was parked where and when shifts finished).

In fact we only sold Ellie because a change in circumstances meant she wasn't getting the living piss driven out of her regularly any more. So we sold her to someone who would.

And currently we're looking at acquiring a 1999 Mk2 10th Anniversary Edition.

When it comes to turning my own wrenches, I'd rather have the Miata in my garage any day, too. Not that I have anything against the S2000, but I prefer to work on my own cars and even the pros don't like to open up the engine.

Also agreed.

 

[Paulie]

To say I like MX-5s (or Miatas as your foreigners call them ) would be a lie. I'm not a fan of their styling, and I'm not a fan of their engine note. (To each his own) But I don't really think they're a bad car. For a cheap and fun little sports car they seem to be pretty darn good from what I hear.

Edit: PS- Without ever sitting in either car, at 6ft 3 and a couple kg over 100kg I doubt I'd fit in either (especially with the top up).

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm 5'9". I've driven three NA MX-5s and one NC. I've not driven an S2K but I've sat in one and had a poke about and it didn't feel appreciably bigger inside than the NA. If anything the S2K felt smaller because the waistline is higher up so you feel more crowded-in. More like an NC MX-5 actually.

Also, sub-100kg vs. 1200kg+. The S2000 is faster outright but the MX-5 is a light, nimble little thing. And at lower speeds and give-and-take roads there's not going to be much in it I'd think. Fun-wise, anyway.

Though of course, I'm still thinking in terms of UK roads - in the States it's probably quite different. It usually is. And for the price discussed in post #1, in the UK you could get a second-hand Boxter which would be very tempting. Or an Elise, to which the others offer no contest, frankly.

 

[Tornado]

Don't early Boxsters break like, all the time?

 

[Giancarlo]

I highly question the reliability of a 7 year old Mazda, low mileage or not, versus a Honda's.

And as others have said, someone who is 6'2" is going to look very silly in a Miata.

 

[Famine]

I highly question the reliability of a 7 year old Mazda, low mileage or not, versus a Honda's.

They are par-for-par.

And as others have said, someone who is 6'2" is going to look very silly in a Miata.

And won't look any less silly in any other 2-seat convertible.

 

[Duke]

I highly question the reliability of a 7 year old Mazda, low mileage or not, versus a Honda's.

The Miata/Protege pair are nigh unkillable with minimal maintenance. Will they remain pristine if neglected? Of course not. But they will run a long time if not driven into large, heavy objects.

 

[Giancarlo]

And won't look any less silly in any other 2-seat convertible.

Eh, i could think of a few. Surprise! They're American.

 

[Boz Mon]

IDK where my post from this morning went, but it was basically saying that the decision isnt as black and white as the first few posts made it out to be. This may come down to insurance rates, and gas mileage. The miata does take regular gas, but I have been buying premium for about the last 5 years of my life.

Can someone enlighten me on the mazdaspeed miata? Also, according to my NADA book, there was a 6 speed available in 02. Is this the mazdaspeed?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The Mazdaspeed has a 6 speed but there was also a 6-speed on the suck-air NBs at some point as well.

 

[Boz Mon]

So mazdasped has a turbo....hmmm, gears are grinding.

 

[Jim Prower]

I'm racking my brain a bit, and somehow, I keep coming up with the S2K out on top.

I mean, I'm just going off what others have said here, and the numbers these cars make...and a little problem...that the S2000 has lasted through two generations of Miata, and still seems like a fresh car.

Honda Sports cars just seem to have that going for them. At least, the rear-drive ones. They're so good at what they do that they really don't need to be updated much...The NSX was a good 15 years old or so before it went away, and was still a favorite of many auto mags.

The NB, to me, just doesn't seem as sophisticated or refined from the outside (Cant' say what that's like to drive,) and the NC just...It seems so large and porky compared to it's older brethren. Yet, it's praised for doing what it does well...not quite as hard-edged as the Honda roadster, but still sticks like glue.

I'd drive the S2K for yourself before giving a final decision. I haven't driven one (or the NC/NB, even NA,) so, I figure, you'd better take a look...

Also a question...are you considering other cars? Maybe...an Altezza IS300? I found several on Autotrader within roughly 100 miles of here (Peoria, don't know your Zip code, but it's not THAT far from Chicago,) for under $14K. Only a Couple S2Ks, at the top of the price list, but that may be because they hold their value well...the MX5s are all over the place, no 'speeds, though.

Here, Pick'n choose.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searc...iceDESC&awsp=false&systime=&rdm=1251425007753

EDIT: Noticed a black/ black wheel combo NA1 in Oswego for $11,500...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.j...on=&max_price=14000&cardist=89&standard=false

 

[niky]

Not surprised... Speeds are rare.

The Miata/Protege pair are nigh unkillable with minimal maintenance. Will they remain pristine if neglected or abused? Of course not. But they will run a long time if not driven into large, heavy objects.

Fixed.

I highly question the reliability of a 7 year old Mazda, low mileage or not, versus a Honda's.

Lower-revving engine. Less tech to go wrong. Simpler car. Easier to take care of.

As long as you don't rev the nuts of for hours at a time. Mine loses a quart of oil if I hold it at redline for half-an-hour under load (I always bring extra oil to a dyno session)... but my engine is probably the worst in the Mazda stable. Apart from my Protege 2.0 (which only suffers due to oil pump cavitation at high rpms and high heat) and the twin-turbo rotary, Mazda's engines are actually quite reliable. Even the engines in the lesser single-turbo and naturally aspirated RX7s can last a long while, though it's hard to find a mechanic familiar with them... which is the only reason we passed up on the opportunity to own a nearly pristine FB RX-7 a decade ago (pity).

The Honda F20 isn't bulletproof, either... you can destroy the engine from frequent high-revving, so it pays to inspect a purchase carefully before committing. The newer 2.2 has a lower redline and might be a better bet if you're planning to keep the car for a long time.

Cooling modifications and better brakes are the most important modifications you need to make to the Miata to make it a track warrior... some NA owners suggest welding in a reinforcing plate between the brake master and the firewall to firm up the pedal pressure... to boot.

-

The Mazdaspeed Miata makes 170-180 hp out of a turbo-charged 1.8 liter engine. It's a parts-bin special, like the Mazdaspeed Protege, but it's a better base motor than the Protege's 2.0 and is relatively unstressed... it should last a long time. There are guys who've gotten 400 hp out of that bottom-end, so the potential is there, should you want to push it further.

The best reason to get it is the better suspension, though. And until Mazda releases an NC Mazdaspeed MX-5, it's the fastest stock Miata on the market, both on the race track and in a straight-line.

 

[Joey D]

IDK where my post from this morning went, but it was basically saying that the decision isnt as black and white as the first few posts made it out to be. This may come down to insurance rates, and gas mileage. The miata does take regular gas, but I have been buying premium for about the last 5 years of my life.

Can someone enlighten me on the mazdaspeed miata? Also, according to my NADA book, there was a 6 speed available in 02. Is this the mazdaspeed?

Premium fuel is only $.20 more than regular, I can't imagine either car holds more than 12 gallons. That's a whopping $2.40 more to fill up with premium over regular. I can find that in my couch cushions. Don't let the use of premium fuel sway you away from a car.

===

Based on my experiences S2000's are involved to drive in the city. The high strung engine means you have rev the crap out of it to get it going and in traffic that can be a bit of a PITA. I hate driving manuals to begin with though, but even if I did enjoy it I don't think I would want to drive an S2000 as my daily.

I've only ever ridden in Miata's. I like the first generation ones, but the second and third don't do it for me. They are great track cars, but on the road they didn't feel the least bit comfortable. I don't think I would want one outside a dedicated track car.

I've loved S2000's ever since they came out, I would love to own one too. If it were my money I'd get one.

===

Another thought to consider is a BMW Z3. I've driven those and think they are fantastic little cars. The only issue I can see though is that the insurance on a Z3 has to be through the moon.

 

[Smallhorses]

Well the mx5 will need a cambelt replacement at 40k miles.

Err, Bluff.

Indeed.
I have a '95 Miata which is driven vigorously a lot of the time.
According to the owners manual the cambelt change for US spec cars is required at 60,000 miles (or 90,000 miles for California cars), so the 40K thing is a fallacy.

I did actually change the cambelt in mine at 60,000 miles just to be on the safe side, it's a much cheaper option than replacing the engine if the cambelt fails when it's getting closer to 90K! I presume it's because the CA cars are less likely to have been exposed to lots of cold starts than elsewhere in the country.

The Miata is a very easy car for an inexperienced driver to drive at 10/10ths and be able to handle. As niky suggests it's not likely to overpower itself (or you for that matter) and is hellishly easy to catch if it does get sideways or out of shape.
I have an old 911 too, and while it's fun (a lot of fun) to drive, the Miata is easier to trust when pushed hard. The 911, well everyone knows it's quirks, and I'm loathed to push it to it's absolute limits lest I find out the ass-first-into-a-ditch way whether they're true or not!!!

As far as size goes, there's a pretty simple modification you can make to the seat rails that'll make even an NA Miata relatively comfortable for a 6'4" and relatively portly male (there's a guy fitting this description in the Miata club we belonged to) and besides, there's an unwritten law that says unless it's -30 degrees outside, raining like when Noah built the Ark or you're planning on driving through Tornado Alley, then a convertible top should be firmly anchored in it's proper position, i.e. DOWN, anyway!

I've never driven an S2000 though so I can't comment on how easy they are to push nor their relative space.

and a little problem...that the S2000 has lasted through two generations of Miata, and still seems like a fresh car.

Well, I suppose technically yes, through the NB and NC generations, however, the Miata being originally released in 1989 has a 10 year headstart on the S2000, and is still selling...

 

[Paulie]

If you wanted something a little different have you considered a Solstice too?

 

[Famine]

Eh, i could think of a few. Surprise! They're American.

And you would actually look like a clown in either.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

If you wanted something a little different have you considered a Solstice too?

If you want to live with a GM interior. And the (imo) not exactly good looks.

 

[TheCracker]

If you want to live with a GM interior. And the (imo) not exactly good looks.

And want a car that isn't a patch on either the S2000 or MX-5 too.

 

[Duke]

Ohhh, I don't know - in GXP trim they are quite the hot racer and autocross weapon. Of course, that's also way over $14k, too.

 

[JacZilla]

I think I should be able to help this situation out a little: I personally own a 2001 AP1 S2000 (Grand prix white, since I like to brag), and my father once owned a 2005 Mazdaspeed Miata.

Driving excitement

Both of these cars were built to drive to the track, thrash around for a couple hours, and then drive home, so neither one of them are too far off the mark when it comes to being a very good sports car. The Mazda's suspension was a fair bit softer than the Honda's. It was a little bit more forgiving when it came to recovering from a slide or just being right on the edge of the grip level than the Honda, but I feel that the Mazda lost a lot of its fun when you set it into a corner and it just wallowed about. The Honda just snaps into place and is like a go-kart on rails. I'm defiantly not saying that the Mazda was any slower in the corners, but it defiantly was less of a thrill; more of a learner's car than a driver's car.

Interior

Neither car had any height problems (for me) in this area. The previous owner of my car was a little taller than me (Him being about 6' 5", me being 5' 11"). This did present a problem at first when he bought the car new, but $50 and about 30 minutes worth of work on the seat rails fixed the issue, giving him 3-4" of headroom. The Only problem a taller person would have in an S2000 with lower seat rails is leg room, but there is even a pedal relocation kit from what I remember. Again, me being a slight bit shorter than the normal person, I didn't have any problems in the Mazda, but I would suspect that anyone who was even the slightest bit taller than average would have difficulties with the Mazda; the leg spacing and head spacing almost felt identical.

Mostly the interiors are quite similar in general feel and build quality, but the seats and driver comfort are worlds apart. The S2000 seats hug you, almost like a good set of racing seats when you were pushing it, even in a straight line you were pushed back just enough to feel that there were side wings there to help support you. When you weren't on the throttle though, the seats felt nice and plushy, with plenty of give to make the ride comfortable. I recently went on an 8 hour drive in the s2000, and only had to stop to eat; there was no discomfort at all in my back or sides. This is where the S2000 really shines, because this is also where the Mazda really lacks. The seats of the Mazda made you feel as if you were riding on cobblestones, even if the pavement was smooth as silk... they were just too unforgiving. Any prolonged exposure always left me needing a stretch and a walk, even if it was only an hour or so. On the track, this feeling was a slight benefit, since it did allow you to feel exactly how the car was reacting, or if there was a slight deviation in the tarmac that you didn't notice. Getting your spine pulverized and your kidneys turned into jello on your daily commute isn't always the best of experiences though.

Reliability

My 8 year old Honda has had the sparkplugs, all the fluids changed, and other standard interval maintainability issues (brake pads/rotors, belts) ; I'm pretty sure that wraps that car up. The Mazda did develop a few squeeks, but those were minor and only took a screwdriver or a ratchet to fix, but BOY did that car like to eat belts. I seriously would think that we almost got a lemon; we had to change the belt on that car at least four times in the course of the three years that it was owned.

The only issue I would think that the Honda would ever have is valve spring retainers. If the motor has EVER gone over the rev limiter, the valve spring retainers must be IMMEDIATELY checked and replaced if necessary. The AP1 motor (F20C) was bad about dropping valves after the retainers cracked in half. Again, this only happens if the motor is over-revved, but it is something that should be checked. $200 at the shop is defiantly worth spending so you don't have to spend $5000 on a new F20C block. The positive of this issue is that it was fixed in the AP2 (F22C), and the retainers are a direct fit from one motor to the other, keeping the cost of replacement down.

The Mazda wasn't without its own potentials though, Overheating, cracked exhaust manifolds and worn out turbos are all part of owning a turbocharged vehicle, and the Mazda was no exception. We never personally experienced any of these issues, but we kept the vehicles in a shape where we shouldn't ever have to. It was a little harder to keep up on the maintenance with this car over the Honda, but that's just because the airflow system was a little more complicated.


Conclusion

As most everyone before me said, you're going to have to try both vehicles out for yourself. I know that the Honda set its self far enough away from the Mazda (in my criterion) to purchase it even while I had the Mazda available for me to daily drive; that was based on my own conclusions though.

The way I see it is if you're a 'driver' you're going to enjoy the Honda. If you're a 'cruiser' you're going to enjoy the Mazda, but are going to pay dearly if you don't already have another vehicle to daily drive.

 

[Joey D]

If you wanted something a little different have you considered a Solstice too?

When I drove a Solstice is felt like a Porsche Boxster that had been in a really bad accident and not fixed right. I don't think they are terribly good cars.

 

[Famine]

The way I see it is if you're a 'driver' you're going to enjoy the Honda. If you're a 'cruiser' you're going to enjoy the Mazda

Naturally, I don't agree. Both are driver's cars. The MX-5 has the advantage under braking and through the corner. The S2000 has the advantage coming out of the corner and down the straight.

And when it rains here (2 days in 3), S2000s are liberally picked out of hedgerows the length and breadth of the UK.

but are going to pay dearly if you don't already have another vehicle to daily drive.

I don't agree either. With just the two of us, the MX-5 was a daily driver. We only still have the MX-3 because there's three of us and a dog (and it wouldn't be worth anything to sell and has never gone wrong by its own devices - as a reward for 6 years' service it's going to be given a £2k overhaul very shortly).

 

[Paulie]

If you want to live with a GM interior. And the (imo) not exactly good looks.

Interior quality? I don't care for interior quality, I care about ergonomics only.

And want a car that isn't a patch on either the S2000 or MX-5 too.

Perfectionist much?

Edit: People should buy more cars with their heart rather than their head.

 

[Joey D]

And when it rains here (2 days in 3), S2000s are liberally picked out of hedgerows the length and breadth of the UK.

Wouldn't that be the driver's fault? I mean if they can't handle driving spirited in the rain then they probably shouldn't. You can't blame the car for the driver's lack of talent.

 

[Famine]

Wouldn't that be the driver's fault? I mean if they can't handle driving spirited in the rain then they probably shouldn't. You can't blame the car for the driver's lack of talent.

If it were the driver's fault alone, you'd see a broad cross-section of vehicles - mainly Fords, Vauxhalls, Renaults, Peugeots, BMWs - being stuffed. This, in fact, happens on normal days.

It's a combination of driver limits and vehicle limits. The S2000 is difficult on the edge - the MX-5/Miata less so - and in less than perfect weather the edge is brough a lot closer - again, the MX-5/Miata less so.

 

[Joey D]

If it were the driver's fault alone, you'd see a broad cross-section of vehicles - mainly Fords, Vauxhalls, Renaults, Peugeots, BMWs - being stuffed. This, in fact, happens on normal days.

It's a combination of driver limits and vehicle limits. The S2000 is difficult on the edge - the MX-5/Miata less so - and in less than perfect weather the edge is brough a lot closer - again, the MX-5/Miata less so.

It's still the driver's fault for not knowing how to properly control their vehicle. You can't really blame the car for this since you aren't supposed to drive like that on public roads anyways.

 

[Famine]

It's got nothing to do with "spirited driving" though (and we've been through this before - there is nothing wrong with "spiriting driving" on public roads). In fact most oversteer-induced accidents caused by driver error with RWD cars in the wet is simply from having a heavy right foot when leaving a roundabout - they're generally very low speed and you either get away with it completely or clobber a kerb a bit.

Yes it's driver error. But no it's not common to all vehicles. The original S2000 is notoriously twitchy in the wet - like the S14 200SX/Silvia, Mk2 MR2, the Mk4 Supra and every TVR ever made. Ultimately the person driving crashes the car because they don't take into account the narrowing of the limits - and in some cars the limits get narrower much quicker.

 

[homeforsummer]

I highly question the reliability of a 7 year old Mazda

Why? When there are now plenty of 100k mile+, 20 year old MX-5s going about which still don't break? Did you not read Duke's previous post?

Don't early Boxsters break like, all the time?

Yours might, ours don't. Porsche consistantly top reliability and customer satisfaction surveys in the UK.

Edit: People should buy more cars with their heart rather than their head.

Which is why people buy the actual drivers cars rather than the glitzy trinket.

 

[Joey D]

It's got nothing to do with "spirited driving" though (and we've been through this before - there is nothing wrong with "spiriting driving" on public roads). In fact most oversteer-induced accidents caused by driver error with RWD cars in the wet is simply from having a heavy right foot when leaving a roundabout - they're generally very low speed and you either get away with it completely or clobber a kerb a bit.

Yes it's driver error. But no it's not common to all vehicles. The original S2000 is notoriously twitchy in the wet - like the S14 200SX/Silvia, Mk2 MR2, the Mk4 Supra and every TVR ever made. Ultimately the person driving crashes the car because they don't take into account the narrowing of the limits - and in some cars the limits get narrower much quicker.

You are still blaming the car for the driver being under skilled. If you don't know the limits of your own car or how to properly control it, you shouldn't be driving like that. Not to mention you shouldn't be driving at the limits of an S2000 on public roads anyways.

It is not the cars fault in any way, shape or form.