New car

[Zac007]

Hey guys I'm thinking of buying a new car and can't decide between a 1994 toyota supra or a 2007 bf falcon xr6. I want one that is fast, comfortable to drive and has leg room. I live in Australia and I also love to cuztomize cars can you guys think of the pros and cons of each car?

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Hey guys I'm thinking of buying a new car and can't decide between a 1994 toyota supra or a 2007 bf falcon xr6.

You were planning this about half a year ago...still haven't decided yet?

I want one that is fast,

Pretty typical P-Plater requirement. Should be the last thing on your mind.

comfortable to drive and has leg room.

Concentrate on these, leave out the fast.

I live in Australia and I also love to cuztomize cars can you guys think of the pros and cons of each car?

Well since you're on P's and you can't get the turbo versions of either of these cars, one major con is that they're not going to be as fast as you expect them to be. Other cons are that you're going to get picked on by the cops especially if you "love to cuztomize", your insurance is going to blow your mind, and buying an old non-turbo Supra doesn't mean it hasn't been thrashed like a turbo Supra would be. The XR6 suffers the same sort of deal.

Go for a Ford Fairlane or a Holden Statesman. They have the same sort of power as the XR6 but they're a lot heavier and therefore are a lot more sedate. Plenty of mojo for you to "get a wriggle on" though, and they're comfy, and have excellent leg room. When you get off your P's, then go for the fun sporty thing; you've got plenty of years of potential driving left to get what you REALLY want. Check out the cars I've owned before my WRX, I'm sure you'd be surprised.

 

[Anna+Reece]

Here's a good one for you

 

[hawkeye122]

In before Toyota Camry 2.2


Seriously though, a 90's V6, 2 door Camry would be a lot easier on insurance than a Supra. And they aren't as slow as you might think

 

[playnthru]

Which would make a better coffin? Assuming this is your first car. Which it seems obvious it is.

 

[Zac007]

I have been learning to drive in a Mitsubishi verada and I'm a ford lover. Should I wait a couple of years to see if the fg xr6 comes down in price, seeing how the new falcon is expected to come out next year or the year after?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I'd still say "get a good car," but not "get a fast car."

Since you like customizing, I trust you've heard the theorem of diminishing gains, right?

If you get a Ford Falcon, you'll get a thrashed, used-up, and basically destroyed car. Add to that the starting costs, insurance, increased insurance bracket, and the "I can't hide my stuff from insurance adjusters" aspect... You'll be paying way too much on a learner's.

But, if you get a slower, cheaper car, modifications will make it faster. Get a car like a Subaru Impreza, or a Honda Civic, because they're cheaper and easier to drive (I can drift my Impreza, barely, but I'd spin a Falcon and I know it.)

So, you want to modify it; modify it. Start with a big, comfortable, slow car, lower it, install some bolt-ons, put some nice rims and tires on it, and eventually it'll be a nice car for a lot less than your Falcon.

The first car I learned to drive was a Hyundai Accent; . I then learned on another Hyundai Accent before getting an Impreza wagon It's an awesome car.

But, here's the thing; you sound like me, a bit. You sound like the sort of person who wants a reliable, fun, fast car, with lots of space and utilities. My Subaru (2005 Impreza 2.5RS wagon) fits that bill. I can tow my racing kart, with a toolbox in it, go to autocross events, get through 34 cm. of snow, and still drive it daily back-and-forth to work.

So far, all I've changed is the catalytic converter (was bad when we got it) and spark plugs/wires (were bad when we got it.) Other than that, she's running great (all fluids changed regularly,) even with the tow hitch and trailer (for summer use only.)

So, if you want to spend more money making your car incrementally faster, (i.e. taking a fast car and trying to make it faster) go for the cars you were thinking of before.

Or, if you want to stand out, make a slow car fast (Impreza) and still have space for a full family of 4 + dog, toolbox, and racing kart, get the Impreza wagon. Or, for that matter, any car that starts out slow and comfortable.


Last tip: Don't try to deal with FF, they're harder... so much understeer in Hyundai Accent.

 

[Bopop4]

Last tip: Don't try to deal with FF, they're harder... so much understeer in Hyundai Accent.

FF is FAR easier to get to the limit, by a country mile.

 

[niky]

A good front-wheel drive car will give you 90% of all the jollies you could possibly want without the sting of high insurance and fuel costs.

Like a Ford Laser 2.0.

I only say this because I own one.

But honestly, while a rear-wheel drive car is fun, it's impractical to get a big, heavy, underpowered old rear-driver. Won't be as fun to chuck around corners as a good hatch... not with tired old springs and a heavy arse. Won't be great on gas. Won't have as much potential as you might be hoping. Won't even be quick. Makes mores sense to get a cheap car, earn a little more money, then simply buy the performance vehicle you were hoping for a few years down the road.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

FF is FAR easier to get to the limit, by a country mile.

Easier to drive, yes. But, "getting to the limit" isn't the goal of a racing driver who builds his own car. People who want to build/customize their own cars don't want to have a car that goes straight with no hopes of turning, like my Accent did. That car was slow. ~100 hp, thin all-season tires, the strut tower brace bar my dad put in the front and various other things made it suck at turning.

I only say this because I own one.

That's basically how it always turns out; people come here to say "buy my car."

[/THREAD]

 

[Bopop4]

Easier to drive, yes. But, "getting to the limit" isn't the goal of a racing driver who builds his own car.

Yes, yes it is.
If you're not trying to get to the limit of you or your car then you shouldn't be racing. (Except sometimes in Vintage racing, lots of guys just like to ride their bikes semi-quick, all for fun.)

And using an Accent of all things as a reason to hate on FFs isn't right at all, just look at an Integra, or VW hatch, both are very quick.

 

[niky]

People who want to build/customize their own cars don't want to have a car that goes straight with no hopes of turning, like my Accent did.

Using an Accent as an example of why people should not buy front-wheel drive cars is just as misleading as using a swing-axle VW Kombi as an example of why people should not buy rear-wheel drive cars.

You're working from a very limited, very flawed data set.

 

[savage388]

Ive had some opportunities to drive some fairly fun front wheel drive cars and for practicalities sake there is nothing wrong with it. The car I learned to drive stick on was a 99 suzuki esteem wagon with a 1.6(unheard of in america) and that car is an absolute blast to drive. Ive also gotten to drive a 2007 ish nissan altima and even with all the power it is still a fun yet comfortable car with tons of interior room. You are always bagging on front wheel drive but how many cars have you gotten to drive? How many of them were rear wheel drive? Its not all its cracked up to be you know, theres no way you can or should drive a competent rwd car with decent power on the public roads or even at the track without experience period.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

And using an Accent of all things as a reason to hate on FFs isn't right at all, just look at an Integra, or VW hatch, both are very quick.

The latest VWs are AWD.

You're working from a very limited, very flawed data set.

I agree, but, only to an extent. It depends on usage. FF is okay for somethings, but terrible for others. Like, for example: I drove past a Nissan Maxima stuck in the snow; same ride height, same tires, different drivetrain.

Granted, I also drove past a Hummer H2, it was also stuck in snow... so...

 

[niky]

Getting unstuck is all about tires and technique. The nice thing about FWD is if you have good technique, you can get yourself unstuck. All the tricks used by off-roaders in AWD cars... backing up, rocking, digging out (well... for mud or deep slush, not for icy asphalt)... work for a decent front driver.

The absolute only thing you can't do with a front-wheel drive car is perform power slides. (we're not going to get into the whole "It's not drifting yo!" argument here). I've driven front wheel drive cars at over 140 mph, on the racetrack, in axle-deep mud, on dirt and gravel, sideways on dirt and gravel in competition, sideways down mountain roads and in autocrosses. The only time you'll ever wish you had something else is when coming out of those tricky box turns on the autocross, but then, unless you've got monster power, very little weight and a tight LSD, a RWD or AWD will flub that, too.

The complaint "It's only good for some things" can be lodged against any drivetrain. Front-engine RWD is rubbish in the snow or on parking ramps. Unless you're drinving a lead sled with a heavy ass, there's little weight on the rear tires. Rear-engine RWD has the opposite problem (you have to juggle the balance to tune out the understeer... which is why 911s have hideous front overhang). AWD is heavy and complex, and unless you have an aggressive differential that sends most of the power rear-ward, it's just as inert and understeery under power as FWD. And if you don't have a mad amount of power, it's dog-slow.

Oh... and VW Haldex AWD? Not really good for much except gaining a little traction over FWD. Haldex AWD cars drive like very, very heavy front drivers. No way to send more torque rearward.

FWD cars will never win at F1 (though they've won at Indy), but there's not really any need for anything else that will never see the dirty side of a high speed racetrack.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

But, those same box corners are the ones that killed the Accent... So, I will admit to entirely agreeing with you. While the sweepers at the local Auto-x are okay, no matter which drivetrain, the AWD Subaru doesn't even get wheelspin from a standstill, whereas the Hyundai didn't have enough power to get wheelspin. Well, it got wheelspin after any slow corner, because of the LSD (I wish I could drop the torque preload so much!!) and it had its fair share of overloading the front tires at the apex, and just sorta "flopping" through the corner...

 

[Bopop4]

^
^Couldn't have said it better.

The latest VWs are AWD.

By VW hatch I meant the good ones, GTi, Rabbit etc.

Edit: Again, using an Accent as a comparison to the WRX is baffling me.
If you put an 80s GTi against the WRX in an Auto-X the Golf would wipe the floor with the Subaru.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

By VW hatch I meant the good ones, GTi, Rabbit etc.

Oh, very true. Yeah, those things are pretty good. Not great, but good.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

The latest VWs are AWD.

"AWD" VeeDubs are FWD until the system detects slip and sends power to the rear wheels. Besides, ever heard of a Golf GTi? o.O

The reason I'm saying as an Aussie former P-Plater to a fellow Aussie P-Plater that Zac should avoid these cars is because they will more than likely be defected as they're considered "hoon's vehicles" in the eye of the law. Even if it has no mods, they WILL find something to defect you for. And when you get a Yellow Canary, it costs you more money than its worth to remove it and they'll still pick on you afterwards.

You want fun, comfort, anonymity and luxury on a budget? Forget the Fat Ford and the Supra, go for a 4GEN Subaru Liberty Spec.B with the 6-speed close ratio manual. Lower it if you want, chuck bigger wheels on it if you want, chuck 50 subs in the boot if you want (though the 13-speaker McIntosh stereo is plenty good enough on its own), but remember when you're on the road that it's still got plenty enough poke to get you into trouble, and RESPECT IT. It's still powerful enough to wipe the floor with an XR6 or a stock non-turbo Supra. Don't put every iota of your faith in the AWD system either. It's safer for you but it's not a proper safety device. Your wits are the best, and in most cases the worst, safety device on the roads.

DON'T be like all the other P-Platers in their clapped-out Commies. Look after the damn thing and it'll serve you well. It's a beautiful car to drive.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Oooooooh, 4gen Legacy is nice too. Especially 6-speed close-ratio.

 

[Mike Rotch]

If you get a Ford Falcon, you'll get a thrashed, used-up, and basically destroyed car.

Why do you say that? Being a Falcon, doesn't mean it's automatically thrashed and destroyed. Unless he buys a fleet / taxi variant, but that is unlikely. Apart from looking at pics on the internet, do you even have any experience of a Falcon?

But, if you get a slower, cheaper car, modifications will make it faster. Get a car like a Subaru Impreza, or a Honda Civic, because they're cheaper and easier to drive (I can drift my Impreza, barely, but I'd spin a Falcon and I know it.)

Last tip: Don't try to deal with FF, they're harder... so much understeer in Hyundai Accent.

Get a Civic. But don't get a FF.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Oooooooh, 4gen Legacy is nice too. Especially 6-speed close-ratio.

It's usually my default "P-Plater's car" suggestion. Still reasonably quick (0-100km/h in 7.0 seconds for a luxury car ain't something to sniff at), cheap on insurance, great looks, well-built and specced interior, STi 6-speed manual (one of the best of its type in my opinion), Bilstein dampers, 18" wheels, and the cops won't pick on you as it's not an Impreza (though really so long as you don't do anything stupid they leave you alone...I've only been stopped once for an RBT in the WRX)

There is of course the GT version of the same vehicle but...no turbos allowed unfortunately.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Or he could get an old RWD Volvo, maybe in turbo flavor.. Unexpectedly quick and fun for its size and price.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Get a Civic. But don't get a FF.

I was implying that FF's okay if you want to build it for less of a performance application (i.e., not autocross) unless he knows that his Civic won't be a daily if he makes it fast. Basically, I've had my rear given to me by a Civic, when I was in my Accent, at autocross, and it even beat the Miatas on PAX (performance adjusted runtimes.) But, that car's basically brought to the autocross on a trailer, whereas I just arrive and drive.

Or, he could get an AWD car and have a bit* more slip angle, and better off-the-line LSD work/traction.

* Though not too much more

Or, he could make the mistake Murcie_LP640 was mentioning; the Falcon XR6 isn't that fast, but, as he also mentions, are owned by people who think that they are fast. When I got my Subaru, the spark plugs didn't even have any tips/electrodes, so I know that people like to try to go without maintenance, but, then again, the child door lock was on, so it couldn't really have been driven hard.

 

[Mike Rotch]

My opinion on the OP, you shouldn't part with anything because your three criteria sounds rather ill-thought out and nebulous.

What is your budget to start with?

I was implying that FF's okay if you want to build it for less of a performance application (i.e., not autocross)

True, but I can't find anywhere where he said he wanted an autocross car, so why even go there?

Or, he could get an AWD car and have a bit* more slip angle, and better off-the-line LSD work/traction.

True, but I can't find anywhere where he said he wanted an autocross car, so why even go there?

When I got my Subaru, the spark plugs didn't even have any tips/electrodes, so I know that people like to try to go without maintenance, but, then again, the child door lock was on, so it couldn't really have been driven hard.

I am not sure what the relevance of this is to the current discussion? Please stick to the topic...

 

[Bopop4]

I was implying that FF's okay if you want to build it for less of a performance application (i.e., not autocross) unless he knows that his Civic won't be a daily if he makes it fast. Basically, I've had my rear given to me by a Civic, when I was in my Accent, at autocross, and it even beat the Miatas on PAX (performance adjusted runtimes.)

A GTi would murder your Subaru at an Autocross, they're very quick little cars.

To OP, VW's can have problems with the brakes and electronics, but if you can find a good little Golf or Jetta that would be suitable. The diesels are more expensive to buy and maintain, but you get incredible mileage, 50mpg+

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I am not sure what the relevance of this is to the current discussion? Please stick to the topic...

I think everyone wants a car that's been well maintained and not beaten to death with a stick-like leg. That's the relevance. Look for the maintenance records on the car, look for stupid things that seem out of place...

And, as for the autocross bits, I'm saying that, because he says he wants a fast car. And, if that's the case, he's either going against AUP (not post of illegal actions) or he's taking his car to a track. It's sort of like eminembeastfan2, in a way, everyone says he should give up his license because he's street racing, but no one has told him to go to an autocross event. And, that's probably a good thing. But, the merit is still there: if you want a fast car, there must be a reason. No one likes extra gas costs, etc., for absolutely no reason...

A GTi would murder your Subaru at an Autocross, they're very quick little cars.

I said they're not good... I meant "not entirely good looking." They're great, fast cars. But, I wouldn't like being seen in one.

 

[Eric.]

I was implying that FF's okay if you want to build it for less of a performance application (i.e., not autocross) unless he knows that his Civic won't be a daily if he makes it fast. Basically, I've had my rear given to me by a Civic, when I was in my Accent, at autocross, and it even beat the Miatas on PAX (performance adjusted runtimes.) But, that car's basically brought to the autocross on a trailer, whereas I just arrive and drive.

Or, he could get an AWD car and have a bit* more slip angle, and better off-the-line LSD work/traction.

* Though not too much more

Or, he could make the mistake Murcie_LP640 was mentioning; the Falcon XR6 isn't that fast, but, as he also mentions, are owned by people who think that they are fast. When I got my Subaru, the spark plugs didn't even have any tips/electrodes, so I know that people like to try to go without maintenance, but, then again, the child door lock was on, so it couldn't really have been driven hard.

I wish you'd drop the "2.5RS greatest car ever" attitude. Also the "FFs are understeering piles of garbage" attitude.

Your car doesn't get wheelspin because it has 160hp, an automatic transmission, and AWD.

Additionally, my daily driver Civic, with basic bolt-ons and a spring/shock upgrade has embarrassed plenty of Corvettes and other cars that it shouldn't in autocross events. Tires and experience go a long way.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Yeah, but, that's Corvettes. I was only 2 seconds off of a Corvette in my Hyundai. And that thing was a dog, which makes me think that the Subaru is noticeably better. It's purely comparative. However, I'll still say that I like other cars more than my goofy little Subaru. I just don't want to own them, and therefore feel no pride in them.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

And, as for the autocross bits, I'm saying that, because he says he wants a fast car. And, if that's the case, he's either going against AUP (not post of illegal actions) or he's taking his car to a track.

He likes Fords and his second choice is a giant boat of a thing with a lazy Barra 190 6-cylinder. Besides, autocross isn't really that big in Australia.

if you want a fast car, there must be a reason. No one likes extra gas costs, etc., for absolutely no reason...

Yes, and that reason in this case is that he is a P-PLATER! It's a typical Provisional License Holder criterion that their car must be "fast" to irrelevantly beat their mates in the Traffic Light Grand Prix.

All teenage blokes here are like this (I wasn't because none of my first three cars were particularly fast in any respect so I merely gave up on trying to be "fast" and concentrated on actually getting through my P's safely). They get their P's, they want a Falcodore or similar other with some hoon's pedigree and/or a high-ish power output. Or, something to carry 53 of their mates at the same time down the main street with their doof-doof rap and R'n'B doing mainies. We're a sophisticated bunch in Aussie-land, don't you know