New Mars Lander to Touchdown Next Weekend

[Joey D]

Scientists know how to do all of this, they made the coldest ever temperature recorded in a lab, something like one billionth of a degree above absoulte zero.

Really? You have proof they know how to do this flawlessly?

 

[Racer21]

Of course we know how to do it, you don't really need proof, just like at the past and how much Europe and the USA have advanced (technologically) in the past one hundred years.

 

[Joey D]

Of course we know how to do it, you don't really need proof, just like at the past and how much Europe and the USA have advanced (technologically) in the past one hundred years.

No I do need proof, because if it was as simple as you seem to making it out to be we would have done it already. Just curious, how do you think we would transport all of the equipment needed for life and building a colony to Mars? And how long do you think it would take given out current status on the shuttle.

 

[Racer21]

The information is from things that I have read and and heard about from Scientists and the like, I remember one saying we could have been on Mars fifty years ago if they were taken seriously. I am no Nasa expert but it would not take long at all to get there because of a shuttle that is in development that has huge sails that catch the sun light, then the shuttle is propelled extremely fast. I saw it on the television, the material is moved when light shines on it.

 

[Joey D]

The information is from things that I have read and and heard about from Scientists and the like, I remember one saying we could have been on Mars fifty years ago if they were taken seriously. I am no Nasa expert but it would not take long at all to get there because of a shuttle that is in development that has huge sails that catch the sun light, then the shuttle is propelled extremely fast. I saw it on the television, the material is moved when light shines on it.

You are going to have to do better that that.

It takes 260 Earth days to get to Mars, so assuming they went dropped their cargo off over a week's time and flew back, that's 527 Earth days or about a year and a half. Not only do we not have a way of keeping the astronauts from becoming frail and weak, not to mention crazy, but we also haven't worked out the fuel problem yet either.

Solar sails, which you are talking about, are big costly things that are still unknown to work in space. The Japanese ISAS tested to see if they could be deployed (Source) and NASA has tested them in a vacuum (Source). A test in space isn't for a long time yet.

 

[Racer21]

It takes what 260 earth days to get to Mars? A space shuttle? The human race seems to hold itself back to much, we could be so much more if we put far more effort into such things, rather than worrying about menial and small problems.

 

[DQuaN]

...rather than worrying about menial and small problems.

Like dying in outer space.

 

[Joey D]

It takes what 260 earth days to get to Mars? A space shuttle? The human race seems to hold itself back to much, we could be so much more if we put far more effort into such things, rather than worrying about menial and small problems.

So the fact that the astronaut will pretty much loose all their muscle mass in zero g for that long, not to mention the psychological strain from being away from family and friends without communication for that long and the risk that you have a chance of not coming back, is menial? You know what kind of money and research it would take to fix these problems? The human race doesn't have the resources or need to push for the resources to colonise another planet right now.

You make it sound like an easy task, when in reality it's probably one of the most complex tasks our race will attempt.

 

[Racer21]

Pft, anyone who advances in history is seen as extreme, Leifr Eiríksson, Da Vinci...

 

[Famine]

You are going to have to do better that that.

It takes 260 Earth days to get to Mars, so assuming they went dropped their cargo off over a week's time and flew back, that's 527 Earth days or about a year and a half. Not only do we not have a way of keeping the astronauts from becoming frail and weak, not to mention crazy, but we also haven't worked out the fuel problem yet either.

And our record for landing things on Mars isn't exactly the greatest either.

 

[niky]

...rather than worrying about menial and small problems.

Like dying in outer space.

@Racer21: There's a big difference between using millions of dollars of equipment and untold kilowatts of power just to freeze a tiny bit of matter and mounting a mission to Mars.

As with nuclear power... just because we can make a hydrogen bomb, doesn't mean we can power the entire world with hydrogen fusion reactors... let alone make one small enough for a space mission.

 

[wfooshee]

Not only does it take 260 days or so to get there, you only have a launch window about every other year, when Mars and Earth are in the right places in their orbits.

It takes so long because all we can do is shoot the rocket in the (hopefully) right direction and wait for it to coast (fall) there.

We do not even approach dreaming about having the technology to do powered travel between the planets. If a ship could be built that could maintain at least half a g for the trip, you'd cut the time down tremendously, not have to worry so much about orbital positions, and your crew wold not have to survive zero-g for so long. But where ya gonna put the fuel for sustained propulsion? What do ya do when your engine breaks just after turnaround?

Haven't even mentioned radiation exposure in the interplanetary arena. This was an issue for Apollo, but only for a few days at a time, not years.

And (hopefully not a "there's no Santa Claus" type of bubble-bursting) because it's been on TV doesn't mean it can be done. Discussing an idea full of "ifs" is what they do on TV. If we had this, and if this could be done, and then if that other stuff was available, then we could get 47 trillion tons of payload to Mars in 3 days.

 

[Racer21]

@Racer21: There's a big difference between using millions of dollars of equipment and untold kilowatts of power just to freeze a tiny bit of matter and mounting a mission to Mars.

As with nuclear power... just because we can make a hydrogen bomb, doesn't mean we can power the entire world with hydrogen fusion reactors... let alone make one small enough for a space mission.

Yeah well, humans are noobs.

 

[Omnis]

No I do need proof, because if it was as simple as you seem to making it out to be we would have done it already. Just curious, how do you think we would transport all of the equipment needed for life and building a colony to Mars? And how long do you think it would take given out current status on the shuttle.

Not to mention the economics and financing of such an endeavor.

 

[Danoff]

I think that Racer is correct. We do have the technology, or are within reach of the technology to send people to mars, and even colonize. But Omnis is also correct, the task of financing such an operation is monumental.

You want to get people to Mars with a high degree of safety, and cost is no object? Ok, how about this?

Launch 15-20 orbiters to mars setting up a GPS grid for future navigation (you're already at billions upon billions of dollars). Next, launch several service modules that will be used for housing, resource collection, and launch facilities for the trip home. Use the GPS grid to land them accurately. Make sure that you have either a transportation robot to move these units to within hookup distance of each other, or make sure that each unit has it's own transportation device (this means weight, which means expensiveness).

Next assemble a human transport spacecraft on orbit (increadibly expensive to do on-orbit assembly). Make sure it has a rotational piece to offer gravity to the people on board (never been done). Now, fuel it up and launch a separate fuel tank to mars to help refuel the human transport vehicle for the trip home.

Once you arrive at mars, put the transport vehicle in orbit (lots of fuel required). Land using a lander tied in to the Mars GPS system. Launch using pre-landed facilities once the people are done playing golf or whatever they're doing. Rendezvous with the transport vehicle, gas it up after doing on-orbit rendezvous with the orbiting fuel tank (the 2nd spacecraft rendezvous required AT mars). Then complete the return trip.

We could do that. It would require many massive rocket launches, complex on-orbit rendezvous and assembly using astronauts. And billions upon billions of dollars worth of hardware, ground support, tracking support etc. etc.

But we could do it.

The trick is to do it in a cheaper way than that. What I listed there makes life easy, but expensive. Making it cheap means making life very hard on the engineers.

BTW - I don't tell you where I work because I want to be able to make posts like these without pissing off my company for making a public statement that could be misconstrued to be on their behalf.

 

[Racer21]

Why do they have to come home?

 

[Danoff]

Why do they have to come home?

Because if they don't you're left with 2 options:

1) You have to have a sustainable system in place when they arrive.
2) They die.

Option 1 is arguably more difficult than bringing them home. Option 2 is not on the table.

 

[Racer21]

Isn't it?

 

[Sureboss]

Not unless you're name is Robert Mugabe.

 

[Racer21]

Damn how did you know?

 

[niky]

Yeah well, humans are noobs.

And you are...?

RE: Danoff's post...: probably sums it up. As it is, the estimates for the cost of a Mars mission are already around one trillion dollars. To actually colonize Mars would cost a whole lot more... possibly enough to require the sacrifice of a good portion of the global economy to fund it.

Or we could do it cheap and easy, Soviet-style, stick the colonists in canisters with just enough air and food to get there, shoot them towards Mars, and hope they hit.

 

[Jay]

Heretics the lot of ya!!







Now on a serious note

Just curious, how do you think we would transport all of the equipment needed for life and building a colony to Mars?

Simple, Airbus A380 with a wetshot of NOS.

It takes 260 Earth days to get to Mars.

Fine add another fogger then.

Not only does it take 260 days or so to get there, you only have a launch window about every other year, when Mars and Earth are in the right places in their orbits.

It takes so long because all we can do is shoot the rocket in the (hopefully) right direction and wait for it to coast (fall) there.

Argh... a third fogger then geez.





But seriously I am very curious what this apparent ice consists of.

 

[Omnis]

Now on a serious note...

... Simple, Airbus A380 with a wetshot of NOS.

Almost made me spray my drink!

 

[Sureboss]

Damn how did you know?

I got the hint when you called me a demon!

 

[FoolKiller]

But seriously I am very curious what this apparent ice consists of.

If I were to take a wild guess, assuming it is ice, a couple of bits of hydrogen with some oxygen mixed in for fun.

 

[Touring Mars]

It could be dry ice i.e. solid carbon dioxide - but with any luck it might turn out to be mostly water ice...

 

[Blake]

Option 2 is not on the table.

Pfft, Americans. Get a country with some cojones when you need to get a suicide mission done.

 

[Joey D]

As TM pointed out in the S&T group, Phoenix has indeed found water on Mars. This is an astounding discovery!

NASA Spacecraft Confirms Martian Water, Mission Extended
TUCSON, Ariz. -- Laboratory tests aboard NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander have identified water in a soil sample. The lander's robotic arm delivered the sample Wednesday to an instrument that identifies vapors produced by the heating of samples.

"We have water," said William Boynton of the University of Arizona, lead scientist for the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer, or TEGA. "We've seen evidence for this water ice before in observations by the Mars Odyssey orbiter and in disappearing chunks observed by Phoenix last month, but this is the first time Martian water has been touched and tasted."

With enticing results so far and the spacecraft in good shape, NASA also announced operational funding for the mission will extend through Sept. 30. The original prime mission of three months ends in late August. The mission extension adds five weeks to the 90 days of the prime mission.

"Phoenix is healthy and the projections for solar power look good, so we want to take full advantage of having this resource in one of the most interesting locations on Mars," said Michael Meyer, chief scientist for the Mars Exploration Program at NASA Headquarters in Washington.

The soil sample came from a trench approximately 2 inches deep. When the robotic arm first reached that depth, it hit a hard layer of frozen soil. Two attempts to deliver samples of icy soil on days when fresh material was exposed were foiled when the samples became stuck inside the scoop. Most of the material in Wednesday's sample had been exposed to the air for two days, letting some of the water in the sample vaporize away and making the soil easier to handle.

"Mars is giving us some surprises," said Phoenix principal investigator Peter Smith of the University of Arizona. "We're excited because surprises are where discoveries come from. One surprise is how the soil is behaving. The ice-rich layers stick to the scoop when poised in the sun above the deck, different from what we expected from all the Mars simulation testing we've done. That has presented challenges for delivering samples, but we're finding ways to work with it and we're gathering lots of information to help us understand this soil."

Since landing on May 25, Phoenix has been studying soil with a chemistry lab, TEGA, a microscope, a conductivity probe and cameras. Besides confirming the 2002 finding from orbit of water ice near the surface and deciphering the newly observed stickiness, the science team is trying to determine whether the water ice ever thaws enough to be available for biology and if carbon-containing chemicals and other raw materials for life are present.

The mission is examining the sky as well as the ground. A Canadian instrument is using a laser beam to study dust and clouds overhead.

"It's a 30-watt light bulb giving us a laser show on Mars," said Victoria Hipkin of the Canadian Space Agency.

A full-circle, color panorama of Phoenix's surroundings also has been completed by the spacecraft.

"The details and patterns we see in the ground show an ice-dominated terrain as far as the eye can see," said Mark Lemmon of Texas A&M University, lead scientist for Phoenix's Surface Stereo Imager camera. "They help us plan measurements we're making within reach of the robotic arm and interpret those measurements on a wider scale."

The Phoenix mission is led by Smith at the University of Arizona with project management at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., and development partnership at Lockheed Martin in Denver. International contributions come from the Canadian Space Agency; the University of Neuchatel, Switzerland; the universities of Copenhagen and Aarhus in Denmark; the Max Planck Institute in Germany; and the Finnish Meteorological Institute.

 

[niky]

Interesting.

Water on Mars does open up the possibility of long term "colonies" being viable.

And having traces present in the soil also opens up the possibiliy of finding life or the precursors of it or at least the fossilized remains of... something, buried somewhere under that soil.

 

[nk4e]

Interesting.

Water on Mars does open up the possibility of long term "colonies" being viable.

And having traces present in the soil also opens up the possibiliy of finding life or the precursors of it or at least the fossilized remains of... something, buried somewhere under that soil.

I saw a tabloid today that they found Dinosaurs on Mars.