Notable matter for tuners (regarding 2.08).

  • Thread starter Thread starter C-ZETA
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Perhaps we're misinterpreting what PD ment by "vehicle height." Perhaps it's a mostly visual affect?
 
I publish this in my garage, perhaps this is a better place for this.

praiano63
I've just checked the ride height .
Before 2.08
RH front > RH rear induce oversteer or reduce understeer.
RH front < RH rear induce understeer or reduce oversteer.
This reaction of the car was OFFLINE and ONLINE , more sensible ONLINE.

Now after 2.08
OFFLINE:
If you set
MAX front RH and MINI rear RH
or
MINI front RH and MAX rear RH
, you'll not feel any difference.
The only thing that you can do with your RH OFFLINE is setting a medium Ride Height.
For example -10/+10 = +10/-10 = 00/00.

It's like they have turned OFF this balance we were playing before OFFLINE.

ONLINE:
Nothing change.
RH front > RH rear induce oversteer or reduce understeer.
RH front < RH rear induce ubdersteer or reduce oversteer.


It means that nothing change for me. I always tune ONLINE for ONLINE use.
OFFLINE tuning ,like for seasonal cars , you'll have to look for other ways than MAX / MINI RH balance to tune your car.
Aero, Springs, Dampers, TOE, LSD..... medium Ride height....... but you can't use the glitch anymore for OFFLINE tuning.

It not a problem, Motor City Hami for example do this all the time, he had never used the glitch and his cars are working very good.

Not very clear i know but that's all i can say with my bad english.

Have a good night everybody.
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Ronald6
Perhaps we're misinterpreting what PD ment by "vehicle height." Perhaps it's a mostly visual affect?
Click to expand...
Visual has been correct, nothing to fix.
praiano63
I publish this in my garage, perhaps this is a better place for this.
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Well, this is the first they've mentioned the issue, it might take a patch or two (or 3) to have it's full intended effect. :D
 
Ronald6
Perhaps we're misinterpreting what PD ment by "vehicle height." Perhaps it's a mostly visual affect?
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My short time with a few cars I think this may be true (I'm hoping at least :dopey: )
 
Definately a difference.. But "who" feels the difference is where it'll vary..

This is ONLINE only.

Generally, those who do short (ONLINE) races probably won't, those who race the entire tyre life, when setup for tyre wear, not lap time, probably will.

Setups for shorter races don't have to be as spot on as longer races. With longer races, you need to find a way of not burning your tyres out and having the car balanced (driveable) when there's very little grip left (1/4 - 1/3rd left).

For the shorter races, 'different' setups will work because it doesn't matter, the tyres last, so no need to find that 'balance' within the core, you can do it generally. With these setups, it's quite often that the core of the setup isn't working together, there's things working against each other, meaning small changes aren't felt as much.

A more balanced setup where the core is all working together, then a smalll change can have a big difference.

We raced tonight in exact same cars and regulations we've been using for well over a year now. I tried rwd, 4wd and fwd. Most of the cars used had ride height differences of between 6-9mm maximum, none were anywhere close to this min / max bull..

Some cars still felt 'allright' at first (compared to how other cars have felt after previous update), but then a quick swap of the ride heights and they felt alot better.

If your tyres lasted the your whole race with very little tyre wear at end, you won't feel much (unless you were running crazy ride heights), if you were doing your last laps with less then 33% of your tyres then you probably will feel something, especially if you have small ride height differences.

Only problem is that tyre wear is crazy now, tyres last forever, so this will mask alot of problem setups naturally as you're not getting to the lower grip levels that will highlight problems within the setup - so in that sense, there's probably going to be quite a few who will say "no change".

It's going to be subjective to the kind of racing each individual does. Some will say yes, 100% definately 'change', others will swear blind nothing has changed.

Those running large diferences between fr & rr ride heights i.e. 20/30/40mm etc probably will 'feel' something, whether this has a big impact on the handling of the car will depend on the regulations set at that time, and psiblly their driving 'skill'..

The really good drivers who are are to overcome handinig problems with throttle and brake control may feel it, but would be able to overcome some issues with their control.. So may not see this as an issue or much of a change..

'knife-edge' setups i.e. you;ve loosened the car so much it's balanced on a knife-edge (any more and it'll be undriveable) - again, this will deend on the regulations and driver...

In a way it's kinda opened up a whole new can of worms now.... don't think this will ever end because the differences in the regulations for online racing are so huge (then add 'setups' to this), to 'map' where and when this will impact the most, or least, will take just too long.

Plus, there'll always be one who will say something different, just because that's the curse of the internet.
 
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CSLACR
That's exactly what I would have expected at any point in time for that tune online.
It oversteered a bit offline, with a huge ride height difference, aka - slammed rear, which means the oversteer online would be catastrophic.
Judging by you saying it still is, it doesn't sound like they changed much to me.
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No, I tested smaller differences and it's still terrible. I needed at minimum a even ride height for good results, probably influenced by the high rear toe number. (Oh and the car was at least "driveable" before the update; yes online)
But I must say it's been a long time since I drove the trial the last time, maybe another update caused this.


Offline is strange, min/max seems to work way better now, pretty much as fast as max/min...
I got the best results with a nearly even ride height, but I didn't test it that long.

The lower the better it feels, although a min/min setting was too low.
 
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This is very weird, has anyone encountered shutdown problem when doing offline practice in GT5, I had 2 shutdown at the exact same situation, pick any car, go to practice, choose Monza with weather, change weather to whatever you like when it loads.
Now every time I move the cursor to start the free run, the PS3 shuts itself down. It happened twice at the same exact condition. I played for hours no issue before this occur, no overheating issues. If anyone is free, please try to do practice at Monza with weather, any car will do, and let me know if there's a problem, thanks.

I did some practice at other tracks, they are fine, no issues, only with Monza weather change :(
 
Deep forest change too. Can't pass anymore with 4 roads on the concrete before the right of the first tunel, not valid, red time. The entrance of the pits also is different.
 
Great, I'm going to have a lot of red times the next I ever visit Deep Forest. I've used that concrete for 10 years. >< (though the first half of that I used all the grass too)
 
my test mule is a 3400s at 505 pp that I consistently run 6:49s on nurb at. I did not alter the settings post 2.08 nor do I use excessive ride height difference trick (i think f/r is within 4mm), something 'feels' a little different and the setup may need to be tweaked slightly as it feels a little slower. Although a 6:48 eluded me, I was still able to run 6:49s online last night though.
 
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I run mostly street from 375-585 PP. I tend to run very 'balanced' and neutral style setups and I rarely change the ride height much from stock. I saw very little change in several cars tested last night. I also hopped in my GT-1 Turbo and played with the downforce settings - seemed the car had more aero grip then before at higher speeds. My tire wear was improved in all the cars I tried, some more then others.

Two thoughts are : obviously some people's tunes will be more effected by any changes made, and that I truely believe some of the difference is in our heads - we 'look and find' things that maybe aren't really there because we were told things have been changed.
 
Ridox2JZGTE
So does the 2.08 update is for the better or worse regarding the ride height issue ?
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Better, because it now works ONLINE as it should in reallife and how the official GT tuning manual says it should work.

Front is LOWER than rear = OVERsteer / makes rear loose
Front is HIGHER than rear = UNDERsteer / makes rear more stable, better grip.

EDIT: scrap the above - done further tests and have to agree differences in ride height are same as pre 2.08

My 4wd's were all around 6mm lower at the rear, change the FR & RR ride heights (drove car both ways) and it turned better when rear was HIGHER.

Tried it on my FWD's too, same thing. Car felt OK at first (good balanced setup), but switch the ride heights and it turned on a dime, all corners - slow, medium and fast.

We use same cars and regs for over the past year, nothing else changed - apart from the ride height. Didn't matter if it was 400pp road cars on sports hards, or racing cars on racing softs.

Racing online is totally different to offline, types of online racing vary hugely aswell. Also, types of tuning vary - direct and indirect tuning.


https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5542639#post5542639

These tunes aren't going to work too well online because too many variables are working against each other.

- Initial Torque : 5
- Acceleration : 44
- Braking : 5

Suspension
- Ride Height : +10/-20
- Spring Rate : 15.4/11.4
- Dampers (Extension) : 7/7
- Dampers (Compression) : 3/7
- Anti-Roll Bars : 6/7

- Camber angle : 2.2/1.6
- Toe Angle : -0.10/-0.40

Brakes
- Brake Balance 9/10

Tires
- Sport Soft


Your dampers and roll bars are working against your springs, the diff is wrong for a FWD and so is the toe too + the brakes. That setup will just murder your tyres.

Here's what I used last night, it's a typical FWD online setup that "generallly" works. Alot of guys I race with use similiar - it helps protect the front tyres while being fairly stable.

This was done before 2.08 when FWD tyre wear was an issue - we race approx 20 miles per RACE - i.e. 5 laps Cap Ring, 6 laps Suzuka, 9 laps deep forest etc etc.

I use - G27 wheel - INCREASED turning sensitivity (so these will understeer a little if your sensitivty isn't slightly higher than stock G27).

I use - Simulation steering - FF '6'


NOTE: ALL setups will need 'tweaking' to account for differences in driving style and steering sensitivty settings. Setups here are given as examples only and are specific to my driving style and wheel settings...

These are examples of online setups that work with diferent types of cars and how to overcome 2 of the most common problems online - unstable car and tyre wear, although tyre wear not an issue anymore after 2.08 I would imagine.


Integra Touring car

335bhp (MID turbo)
1050kgs
509pp

Racing softs

Aero
20 - 45

LSD
Initial - 20
Acc - 18
Brake - 45

Suspension
-20 / -8 EDIT: Not any more - try -30 / -30
16.9 / 11.8
7 / 3
7 / 3
2 / 5

0.7 / 1.5
+0.10 / -0.02

Brakes

3 / 9

My Time Attack (FWD) Clio 16v 2.0 '02

311bhp
880kgs

Sports Soft

same diff & brakes

Suspension

-9 / 0 EDIT: not any more, try 0 / -9
13.1 / 6.3
8 / 4
8 / 4
1 / 5

1.7 / 2.2 (as this is Time Attack car, not race - used more aggressive camber than above)
+0.10 / -0.02

Suspension was set using my weight distribution theory - Integra = 130% front / 120% rear, Clio was 120% front and 80% rear.

Gearbox is my stock FWD - 1st & 2nd max LONG, top gear SHORT as possible, space out 3 / 4/ /5 evenly. Adjust top speed with final drive.

NOTE: LSD (acc & brake) and front toe are from RJ @ RKM. Many thanks 👍

The Integra uses much gripper tyres + had longer wheelbase, so needed stiffer rear to help turn. Clio was shorter wheelbase and needed stability, so went softer on the rear for better grip & stability.

Same principle - but you need to know how to apply it in what situation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

- Initial Torque : 5/5
- Acceleration : 37/46
- Braking : 7/9

Torque Sensing Differential
-Torque Split: 30/70

Suspension
- Ride Height : -10/-15
- Spring Rate : 16.5/5.6
- Dampers (Extension) : 8/3
- Dampers (Compression) : 4/7
- Anti-Roll Bars : 6/7

- Camber angle : 3.0/1.4
- Toe Angle : -0.08/-1.00

Same with this, roll bars, dampers and springs are not working together, the diff is no-where near a good 4wd online LSD and the toe is way out.

Online, 4wds can easily be made to "dift" out of corners without burning the front tyres. BUT - becareful of some 4wds - such as the calibre DTM and murcielago 640, these are diffent from others and need 'special treatment' as they can act / feel more like MR than the stereotypical 4wds.

Trick with 4wds is to loosen the rear as much as possible to help the front turn as much as possible to avoid front tyres being murdered. Put as much power to the rear as possible, whilst still retaining grip and staibility upon exit of very slow speed corners.

R33 Touring Car dlc

LSD

20 / 30
18 / 13
50 / 10

power split - I change in race between 20 / 80 & 15 / 85 & 10 / 90 - depending on tyre heat / wear

Suspension

0 / 9 EDIT: not any more - try 9 / 0
11.9 / 10.9
6 / 7
6 / 7
3 / 3

1.7 / 1.4
+0.10 / -0.02

3 / 9

R33 GTR V-Spec premium (road car)

690bhp
1247kgs
585pp

Raing Hard tyres

Same LSD, brakes & power split as above

Suspension

-3 / 0 EDIT: not any more, try 0 / -3
11.9 / 11.0
6 / 8
6 / 8
2 / 3

0.7 / 0.5
+0.10 / -0.02

Murcielago 640 '09

585pp
Racing Hards

LSD
10 / 10
18 / 13
45 / 15

Suspension

0 / -6 EDIT: not any more, try -6 or 9 / 0
12.4 / 13/6
6 / 3
6 / 3
4 / 4

1.0 / 0.7
-0.15 / +0.20

Brakes

4 / 4

Suspension = setup calculator - 110% front & 100% rear.

The LSd, ride height, roll bars and toe have been used to tame this, whereas most 4wds you want to be as loose as possible, this is the opposite, it needs serious stabilising.

You might want aero on this, superfast corners like @ Indy road coming onto mainstaight (140 mph+) the back end can start to float a bit with worn tyres. Scary, but if you can drift it, you won't wipe that smile off your face for months. Aero should stabilise it though.

Same as with the FWD - same philosphy but adjust according to circumstance. Some 4wds will be better with soft rear end, it's all to do with what you're tuning for i.e. track, race distance, laptime or tyre wear PP / power / tyre ratio etc etc etc etc

NO ballast used on ANY car - all cars have natural / stock weight distribution. Both R33's suspensions done by (weight distribution) setup calculator - 130% front & 120% rear.

Cars tuned for tyre wear and stability through (20 mile 30+km race), no pit stops, same tyres throughout) - NOT tuned for OFFLINE or fastest lap.

With 2.08 - tyre wear is not such an issue anymore, so more aggressive setups can be used, but these (apart from the ride height - which has been reversed front to rear) are all pre 2.08 setups used online..

Drop me a PM for more info or check Priano's garage in a few weeks...
 
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Highlandor, the reverse ride height 'reversal' is not what I noticed (in limited time) last night online. Mind you, I don't use extreme values. However, a setup that was -10/-14 f/r originally understeer *more* when I reversed the values to -14/-10 f/r -- all else being equal.

I don't mind sending you the entire tune in a PM later today if you'd look at it. Constructive criticism is always welcome.
 
Highlandor
Better, because it now works ONLINE as it should in reallife and how the official GT tuning manual says it should work.

Front is LOWER than rear = OVERsteer / makes rear loose
Front is HIGHER than rear = UNDERsteer / makes rear more stable, better grip.

Drop me a PM for more info or check Priano's garage in a few weeks...
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Totally wrong. Ride height is still backward online and not a few.

Anybody can test it.
1- take your most balanced car with same ride height like 00/00
2- Go online to High speed ring (because it's flat and regular curves) with this setting to check if the car is well balanced.
3- then set RH F+05/R-05 ....... = OVERSTEER.
4- then set RH F-05/R+05.........= UNDERSTEER.

You can feel it clearly with only 5+5= 10 points RH and it goes like this proportionally till MAX/MIN or MIN/MAX.


Something else, are you looking for trouble again ??? What do you mean with this check Priano's garage in a few weeks
Let me alone doing my things and never write my name anywhere in this forum. Better like this.
 
Highlandor
These tunes aren't going to work too well online because too many variables are working against each other.

- Initial Torque : 5
- Acceleration : 44
- Braking : 5

Suspension
- Ride Height : +10/-20
- Spring Rate : 15.4/11.4
- Dampers (Extension) : 7/7
- Dampers (Compression) : 3/7
- Anti-Roll Bars : 6/7

- Camber angle : 2.2/1.6
- Toe Angle : -0.10/-0.40

Brakes
- Brake Balance 9/10

Tires
- Sport Soft


Your dampers and roll bars are working against your springs, the diff is wrong for a FWD and so is the toe too + the brakes. That setup will just murder your tyres.
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This tune was made to win a shootout and not to be gentle to tyres or whatever else.

You forget one essential thing: I've never had before, and will just hardly ever again (and I'm very sure) have, as much fun with driving FWD cars as I had with this car at the time I tuned it.
I know the updates ruined it, they absolutely devastated it, but that's not my fault.

The bars follow the same concept as they do in your tunes (wtf you really wanna call that wrong?) and the diff is never on earth wrong, at least not if you know how to drive it properly (pedals are analog, not digital). I tested tons of diffs when I was tuning for that shootout, many of them very similar to yours, but I was always slower with those.


The maingoals were to improve fun and speed, I never cared about driveability or tire wear nor how it works online.

I only tested this tune online after 2.08 to check how the max/min setting eventually works.



EDIT: Ride height on your "time attack clio" looks wrong for a pre 2.08 time attack tune.


-----



Just tested online a Nissan GTR SuperGT car with a by 10 lower front than rear - drove terrible. An even height was way better. It understeered but at the same time the rear somehow wobbled (might not be the best word to describe it) around like a 🤬, although it only appeared on corner exit.
You can't really see it, but it gives a horrible feeling if you're using a wheel.



Whatever you do, a setting close to even ride height seems to be the best way.
 
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Slightly off topic but is the new Subaru DLC just another GT86?

Just thought, if they did fix the Ride height glitch then they would also have changed the reverse spring rate glitch too. And they didn't mention anything about the spring did they?
 
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Jackthalad
Slightly off topic but is the new Subaru DLC just another GT86?

Just thought, if they did fix the Ride height glitch then they would also have changed the reverse spring rate glitch too. And they didn't mention anything about the spring did they?
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Subaru BRZ, Scion FRS and Toyota GT86 are pretty much the same cars.



Spring rates are still the same.
 
Jackthalad
Slightly off topic but is the new Subaru DLC just another GT86?

Just thought, if they did fix the Ride height glitch then they would also have changed the reverse spring rate glitch too. And they didn't mention anything about the spring did they?
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I haven't checked myself, but I've read where others have confirmed it's basically the same car with different skin and exhaust sounds. Suspension settings are consistent.

Looks like we've got a consensus again on the ride height issue...lol.:crazy: I still say this can be settled with a tuning battle or a couple of them anyway. One can argue theories endlessly but the real proof is on the track. Anyone wants to set it up, I'm there as a driver!! 💡
 
So how are existing tunes reacting now? Has anyone tried one that is just awful and needs to be retuned?
 
After some testing I'm with praiano on the matter of ride height.

Online it feels a little different but in fact not much changed. Nose down will give a tendency to understeer, nose up oversteer.

Offline ride height basically matters for only one thing: tyre squeal. Turn your sounds off and there is no difference between min/max, max/min or 0/0. I didn't test if there is a difference for wear, but I doubt it since I never found a really close link between an individual wheel squealing (not sliding or overheating) more and having more wear on exactly this wheel. But I'm no wear expert.
 
Interesting, I honestly think they just edited the effectiveness of using the RH. I've taken cars like the Zonda Racecars and evened out the RH's (which I would never do prior) and they work fairly well. Just not sure if the tweaks in the Downforce is causing that.
 
@ HIGHLANDOR: I was reading your above post and see you use a G27 wheel, same as me. You spoke of adjusting the controller sensitivity and steering type for that wheel. Two things on that.
1. Steering type. This option does not work on the G27 wheel. It only works for the 3 wheels that are highlighted when selecting that option. Those three wheels are the GT Force, Driving Force, and Driving Force EX.
2. The controller sensitivity does not work with any Logitech wheels. That function only works with hand held cotrollers such as the Dual Shock. That comes straight from PD/Sony themselves as I contacted them several months ago regarding that issue as there was a big debate about that in another thread.
So, if you are using those two settings with your G27, its not going to make a bit of difference. Just thought you ought to know that.
 
I've read through most of this and it doesn't seem like too much is effected.

It's still raised rear = Rear grip and Understeer.

Maybe all that was changed is cars that are set up even 0/0 -5/-5 are more balanced then before.

I was running Praiano's Z06 tune with ride height +5 +15 and the front end seemed to have less grip and slide up the track more then before the update.

Maybe the front end is now more effected by the rear height when the rear is raised the front loses grip instead of just creating gripped understeer it now creates lose front end understeer?
 
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GTP_CargoRat
@ HIGHLANDOR: I was reading your above post and see you use a G27 wheel, same as me. You spoke of adjusting the controller sensitivity and steering type for that wheel. Two things on that.
1. Steering type. This option does not work on the G27 wheel. It only works for the 3 wheels that are highlighted when selecting that option. Those three wheels are the GT Force, Driving Force, and Driving Force EX.
2. The controller sensitivity does not work with any Logitech wheels. That function only works with hand held cotrollers such as the Dual Shock. That comes straight from PD/Sony themselves as I contacted them several months ago regarding that issue as there was a big debate about that in another thread.
So, if you are using those two settings with your G27, its not going to make a bit of difference. Just thought you ought to know that.
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Yeah, that's what I thought at first, but I run extra steering sensitivty in my options and others with the same wheel and wheel settings (simulation - Force feedback '6') say my setups understeer. Iasked them for their setting, they wre always '0'..??

I race with guys who have G27s (same G27 settings) but have thier sensitivity on -2, they swear by that ..?? I don't understand why some do and some don't..

Thanks for letting us know, I'll test some stock cars on -2 and +7 and see if there's a difference.. 👍

-----------------------------​

Ride height...

Just did some tests in private lobby. Have to say, I'm now more confused than ever.

Hate to say it, but man enough to take the inevitable on the chin, I think I got it wrong.

Honda Integra Touring car (setup n previous page).

Everything how it was, even same track, but tried ride heights:

-20 / 0
0 / -20
0 / 0
-30 / -30

First 2 were same as before 2.08 (so those who said this, I think are right, I was wrong).

Problem is that 'where' the oversteer was happening wasn't the same, and also, when I tried even ride heights, stock and slammed (-30 / -30) the opposite happened.

-30 / -30 - car felt much better than 0 / 0. Before 2.08 I'd said the opposite.

"Where" the oversteer happened (0 / -20) was later in the corner than what I'd expect (pre 2.08). Normally I'd expect it to snap into th corner immediately upon lifting off brakes / throttle, but on some corners it was oversteering as I exited.

Murcielago - same aswell, pre 2.08 settings were as pre 2.08.

I tried -20 / 0 and 0 / -20, as pre 2.08 first one understeered, second one oversteered.

Last night we had full lobby of 14 (with mics on), seemed to be unnanimous that reversing pre 2.08 ride heghts made the cars feel better, now, I'm not so sure and think maybe sticking to pre 2.08 ride heights differences (between front and rear).

Only problem is I don't understand why the 'teg felt so much better slammed than stock. Pre 2.08 that definately wasn't the case, we'd been running that car for over a year with those specs, no one preferred it slammed.

I tried an Oreca Viper I used in a GT1 endurance race tonight aswell, that didn't feel right either. Pre 2.08 big differences in ride heights (for me thats 10-15mm front to rear) produced fairly obvious results, now they don't - or at least didn't on the Viper, not as much as Murcielago.

The 'teg has almost as much traction from the front wheels at -30 / -30 as what it did at 0 / 0, pre 2.08, cars that struggled with traction were easily better off at stock ride height for traction than slammed.

Last night I was convinved it had changed, now I'm convinced 'something; has changed, but exactly what, not sure.

As for ride heights, will test more during the weeks race series, but I think pre 2.08 differences (between front and rear) are still valid generally.

So yeah, take a photo - I got that wrong.. :(
 

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