Nurburgring is so wrong or?

[occasionalracer]

Case end point, lack of fear in a game allows us to push virtual cars well beyond the limits any of us ever would outside of your consoles, stop acting like you didn't know this. It's like every where you look on here it's "oh look, GT5 isn't perfect, let me tell everyone who I can". No matter how close they can replicate anything in the game, you will never ever replicate realistic lap times considering you have no fear at all, no matter how fast you drive in the game you won't care.

I would argue against this for two reasons. The top drivers on the grid of any race in any racing class/type know their car and track so darn well, that you can bet all your money they're giving everything the car can give at all times... the only boundery they're not crossing is traction, not fear.

Pure fear itself is almost never going on while racing, of course any racer is highly aware of the danger of what they are doing, which keeps their adreniline/brain activity absolutly on point.

This doesn't mean they're not afraid, infact I would say that racers are very balanced individuals who highly appreciate life, as they are essentially constantly trying to save themselfs from injury or death. I think for most racers it's those accident/mechanical failures type of scenarios that lingers heavy on their mind... things that could happen that are not in their control.

Relating this to your point... IF everything was ever to be 100% identical in a simulation game/software, there is no reason why the lap times shouldn't match 1:1 as well.

Here's a clip of where fear simply can't interfere in motorsports.

 

[Jav]

Nürburgring is such a complicated track to replicate due to it's thousands of bumps, divots, pitches, elevation and constant radius change, that I would say it's impossible to truly replicate, unless, like Jav said Sony/PD make the next logical step for the future of simulation and purchase 1 or more laser scanning machines to take all the guessing/measuring work out.

It really is the only way, but I believe they have done an incredible job, and Yamauchi taking part in the ADAC 24h race the last 2 years is a pleasant confirmation that the creator himself knows the difference between his game and reality, and wants to hopefully work on improving things further.

They could even outsource to any reputable engeneering firm to do the laser scan of any track arround the world and save themselves the expense of all the traveling they would have to do... But then again it's always better to do things yourself. It all depends on Kaz and where he stands in this. With iRacing replicating every track with this method and more and more rFactor mod teams doing laser scans independently it is only the logical thing to do as you said. I really hope they adopt this method for GT6. But for what is worth they've done an exeptional job with this track and it is simply the best replication available for the general public!
Now I would definitely love to see the BMW F1 Team version, but then again who in here wouldn't love to get their hands on that??

 

[SavageEvil]

I would argue against this for two reasons. The top drivers on the grid of any race in any racing class/type know their car and track so darn well, that you can bet all your money they're giving everything the car can give at all times... the only boundery they're not crossing is traction, not fear.

Pure fear itself is almost never going on while racing, of course any racer is highly aware of the danger of what they are doing, which keeps their adreniline/brain activity absolutly on point.

This doesn't mean they're not afraid, infact I would say that racers are very balanced individuals who highly appreciate life, as they are essentially constantly trying to save themselfs from injury or death. I think for most racers it's those accident/mechanical failures type of scenarios that lingers heavy on their mind... things that could happen that are not in their control.

Relating this to your point... IF everything was ever to be 100% identical in a simulation game/software, there is no reason why the lap times shouldn't match 1:1 as well.

Here's a clip of where fear simply can't interfere in motorsports.

I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't change the simple fact that fear or injury, losing control and ultimately death has bearing on what a driver does in real life. Humans by nature instinctively fight against death, why do you think when you are terrified you get a rush of adrenaline? It increases your muscle capacity for a short time, quickens thought processes all in the name of survival. So even pushing a car to the max, how many times do you think that driver can reproduce that result? In a game you would push the game as far as it can go to see much better you can get your time, guaranteed you will still be faster than real life. How many times do you think you would be able to get perfect conditions, be able to push yourself that many times without mental breakdown? Human body has limits and real life fear of death is a strain on any psyche. In a game we can do this time and time again, not so with your real life and limb at risk. Your thoughts on that mate?

 

[sinbad]

I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't change the simple fact that fear or injury, losing control and ultimately death has bearing on what a driver does in real life. Humans by nature instinctively fight against death, why do you think when you are terrified you get a rush of adrenaline? It increases your muscle capacity for a short time, quickens thought processes all in the name of survival. So even pushing a car to the max, how many times do you think that driver can reproduce that result? In a game you would push the game as far as it can go to see much better you can get your time, guaranteed you will still be faster than real life. How many times do you think you would be able to get perfect conditions, be able to push yourself that many times without mental breakdown? Human body has limits and real life fear of death is a strain on any psyche. In a game we can do this time and time again, not so with your real life and limb at risk. Your thoughts on that mate?

That applies to the crazy risks you might take at a new track in a game. No fear of braking suicidally late means you can find the braking points the crazy way.

But when it comes to outright lap times, it just does not occur. I'm sure that some club racers, and some young kids, will let fear affect their performance, but I guarantee these people will not be at the top of the sport.

You're suggesting that someone like Mark Webber is being held back from becoming world champion by a fear for his own safety. Which is obviously not the case, they drive with a fearless aggression.

Only when you get to events like the isle of man tt would you see riders holding back slightly at certain sections because the consequences would be severe. I guarantee that Casey Stoner is not afraid of hurting himself to the point where he doesn't ride his bike to the limit. Even Loeb is probably more worried about scoring no points than hurting himself.

 

[another_jakhole]

Fear isn't controllable. It's confidence in themselves and their skill that lets people overcome such things. How do you know these people have no fear? That's not a statement that can really be taken seriously.

Whereas this
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1009_gran_turismo_5/viewall.html
can be.

GT5's version of the Nordshleife is the best recreation out there, if you want anything better you will need a Laser Scan of the track. The wrong distance between corners is a common issue with all tracks in GT5 and it comes from the way they create the tracks. The only way they could get exact copies of each track is to simply do a Laser Scan, wich I pretty much expect for GT6.

This begs to differ, big time... slappah da bass.

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5s-data-logger-soon-available-to-consumers/

Only possible if the tracks are near copies.

 

[Zevious Z]

That applies to the crazy risks you might take at a new track in a game. No fear of braking suicidally late means you can find the braking points the crazy way.

But when it comes to outright lap times, it just does not occur. I'm sure that some club racers, and some young kids, will let fear affect their performance, but I guarantee these people will not be at the top of the sport.

You're suggesting that someone like Mark Webber is being held back from becoming world champion by a fear for his own safety. Which is obviously not the case, they drive with a fearless aggression.

Only when you get to events like the isle of man tt would you see riders holding back slightly at certain sections because the consequences would be severe. I guarantee that Casey Stoner is not afraid of hurting himself to the point where he doesn't ride his bike to the limit. Even Loeb is probably more worried about scoring no points than hurting himself.

So then, what you are saying is that Mark Webber has gotten 100% out of his car at any given track this year? He could not have improved his times at all? And by extension, no other driver could have gotten a better time in his car?

Sorry, but you aren't really thinking about this in the right way. The sort of fear being discussed here is not the "OMG this is frikkin scary as hell!!!!" kind of fear. We're talking about fundamental biogical imperatives towards self-preservation. No matter how "fearless" your favorite pro driver might appear, he still doesn't want to die nor does he want to destroy a million dollars worth of machinery. Racecar drivers are phenomenally skilled at what they do and compared to you or me they are basically fearless. But they aren't able to do the sorts of insane things we do lap after lap in Gran Turismo. In the game I can literally drive without any concern for my well-being and that is a huge advantage over ANY real-world driver. No driver - not even Shumacher - ever got 100% out of his car. Never. Its really more like this: You or I on a race track in a real car might be able to get what, 85 or 90% before our self-preservation instinct kicks in and forces us to lift off. The best real drivers otoh might hit 95 or 96% before hitting that sub-conscious limit. Not 100%, and certainly not lap after lap. (those percentages are totally made up of course just to illustrate my point)

Iracing has laser-scanned and very accurate tracks, and much deeper physics modelling than GT5, and yet the fast guys in iRacing still run faster than real-world times. Even given a hypothetically perfect simulation (which we are still a loooong way away from), that would still be the case.

Imagine for instance if GT5 was set up in such a way that if you took a car out on track and wrecked it, that car was erased from the game and you couldn't ever get it back in there. Would that change the way you drive the car?

 

[sinbad]

I'm not suggesting Webber got 100% this year, Vettel destroyed him, but it's certainly not fear for his well being that held him back. Often drivers end up going slower because they are trying too hard!
All that counts is lap time. Fast drivers have a level of control that makes them feel safe doing what you or I may perceive as dangerous.

You're suggesting that the fastest drivers are simply going to be the bravest. These kids don't have any fear of crashing, except that it makes them look bad, they are on the very edge, all of the time, and the ones that win are the ones with the skill, not the ones with the balls, they all have balls.

 

[Mulan]

I wonder if dirt, airhumidity, temperature on track and air, tirepressure, wind takes couple of seconds in real life. This doesnt happen in gt5 so there might be a reason for going faster in gt5 too.

But the i wonder, if track is accurate then perhaps viewangle isnt right ingame..perhaps this should be changed instead.

 

[deadcat777]

If you want a 1:1 comparison with the real Nurburgring. Wait till PS4 is out. And pray that PS4 is equipped with GTX590 SLi.

 

[MattieM]

Last summer i did 4 laps at the Ring. The first thing that suprised me were the elevation changes and the banking whose are higher and steeper compared to GT5, but not as the movie on page 1. First time through the caroussel i took the "high" route, as i looked down to the inside of the corner i asked myself "are people really taking that part?". Second lap i took the corner as it should be taken. If you're living near the Ring, go there and drive a few laps. Great fun and scary as well .

 

[PAWEL17]

Let's not forgot, the game producer/director of GT5 has done the Nurburgring 24 hour event more then once....in real life. Obviously it isn't perfect, but the feel of driving there without g-force should be very darn close.

 

[occasionalracer]

I understand what you are trying to say, but it doesn't change the simple fact that fear or injury, losing control and ultimately death has bearing on what a driver does in real life. Humans by nature instinctively fight against death, why do you think when you are terrified you get a rush of adrenaline? It increases your muscle capacity for a short time, quickens thought processes all in the name of survival. So even pushing a car to the max, how many times do you think that driver can reproduce that result? In a game you would push the game as far as it can go to see much better you can get your time, guaranteed you will still be faster than real life. How many times do you think you would be able to get perfect conditions, be able to push yourself that many times without mental breakdown? Human body has limits and real life fear of death is a strain on any psyche. In a game we can do this time and time again, not so with your real life and limb at risk. Your thoughts on that mate?

So if the human body has these limits that you are referring to (I'm certainly not argueing that), how would a 100% accurate simulation give the average player a better laptimes than a pro using the simulation?

sinbad made the point quite clear that guys who have been racing all their life have crossed the barrier of constant fear, and that the best of the best in motorsport are not the boys with the biggest balls (yes they're quite large), but quite clearly with that slight edge of mental/physical skill.

I showed that youtube clip of of Monaco, because I think it shows the how amazingly terrifying it looks to watch, but to Vettel in this case, he's fully concentrated on the lines and balance.
Do you really think Webber is freaking out about crashing into the barriers at 2 km/h more? That's hardly the reason for Vettel to have outpaced him in every race this season, same with Alonso smoking Massa this year. Almost all tracks in F1 are so safe that the drivers CAN push their cars to the limit and beyond and just end up gliding off on the runoff without hitting anything.
So if Monaco is really a test of fearlessness (and it is) then we would see this in qualifying laptimes easily, but we don't, the ranking results are roughly as to be expected in relation to the previous ranking results of the season with "safe" tracks. Anyway, ALL professional level racers are driving their laps to their max skill potential.


Motorsports differs from most other sports on the maximum human capability, in that it's probably THE most thoughest sport on the mental side. I can't think of another sport where brain activity is so elevated for so long, so relating this back to the simulation, why should anyone (including pros) be able to do BETTER on screen. It SHOULDN'T be this way.. unless something within the simulator is off! The physical fatigue shouldn't be the issue if we're talking about single laptimes, but if you want to simulate an entire race, the guy sitting at the simulator should have the advantage physically.

 

[occasionalracer]

So then, what you are saying is that Mark Webber has gotten 100% out of his car at any given track this year? He could not have improved his times at all? And by extension, no other driver could have gotten a better time in his car?

Sorry, but you aren't really thinking about this in the right way. The sort of fear being discussed here is not the "OMG this is frikkin scary as hell!!!!" kind of fear. We're talking about fundamental biogical imperatives towards self-preservation. No matter how "fearless" your favorite pro driver might appear, he still doesn't want to die nor does he want to destroy a million dollars worth of machinery. Racecar drivers are phenomenally skilled at what they do and compared to you or me they are basically fearless. But they aren't able to do the sorts of insane things we do lap after lap in Gran Turismo. In the game I can literally drive without any concern for my well-being and that is a huge advantage over ANY real-world driver. No driver - not even Shumacher - ever got 100% out of his car. Never. Its really more like this: You or I on a race track in a real car might be able to get what, 85 or 90% before our self-preservation instinct kicks in and forces us to lift off. The best real drivers otoh might hit 95 or 96% before hitting that sub-conscious limit. Not 100%, and certainly not lap after lap. (those percentages are totally made up of course just to illustrate my point)

Iracing has laser-scanned and very accurate tracks, and much deeper physics modelling than GT5, and yet the fast guys in iRacing still run faster than real-world times. Even given a hypothetically perfect simulation (which we are still a loooong way away from), that would still be the case.

Imagine for instance if GT5 was set up in such a way that if you took a car out on track and wrecked it, that car was erased from the game and you couldn't ever get it back in there. Would that change the way you drive the car?

Again, I'm sorry to hear that some actually think it's fear that's holding back perfection, I can tell you that you're highly underestimating what these boys are actually doing. Of course nobody can get 100% out of the car lap after lap, there wouldn't even be a way to measure this anyway, but when you have drivers doing extremely consistant fast laps, it is called SKILL and TALANT, which can only be measured by comparing to the others performances. If you want to see physically though guys, check out some of the Olympic events or other non-team sports (which require huge mental capacity as well).

If guys on Iracing are running faster times than real life, it's because tire wear and preservation isn't 100% accurate and of course all the other physics/envirornment calculations are a tiny bit off.

It really doesn't matter to that degree anyway, we're all playing GT5 to have fun and to be very close to what it would be like in reality, but it's still very close and helps maintain and build reflex muscle and balance skills for the real world. I can say that everytime I hop into my car after a GT5 session my mind & body is fully in the zone and I feel very confident when taking various turns and on-off ramps at or near race-pace (without endangering anyone). I'm certainly not a wrekless or dangerous driver. GT5 feels very natural to me and I really liked that last physics update. I'm also in love with the T500RS, it makes the force feedback seem genuine in comparison to real life.

 

[Zevious Z]

No, I'm not saying its "fear that is holding them back." I'm saying one of the factors that plays into times in sims/games being faster than real life times on the same tracks is the fact that we can get closer to the limit (actually, even beyond the limit really thanks to the complexities of tire modelling and so forth) than the real drivers do thanks to us not having to suffer any real consequences from going beyond those limits. Its not fear holding them back, its incredible skill allowing them to get way closer to the edge than any of us would.

No, its not nearly the "only" factor of course. We're not at a point now where the tracks and cars are anywhere close to 100% accurately modelled. But I'm pretty certain that even if we were, we'd still be beating real world laptimes in the sims...

 

[Jav]

This begs to differ, big time... slappah da bass.

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5s-data-logger-soon-available-to-consumers/

Only possible if the tracks are near copies.

Wich is why it never got released, it's full of glitches and bugs wich need to be worked out trough processing to adapt the real world lap to the GT5 track.

 

[CSLACR]

No, I'm not saying its "fear that is holding them back." I'm saying one of the factors that plays into times in sims/games being faster than real life times on the same tracks is the fact that we can get closer to the limit (actually, even beyond the limit really thanks to the complexities of tire modelling and so forth) than the real drivers do thanks to us not having to suffer any real consequences from going beyond those limits. Its not fear holding them back, its incredible skill allowing them to get way closer to the edge than any of us would.

No, its not nearly the "only" factor of course. We're not at a point now where the tracks and cars are anywhere close to 100% accurately modelled. But I'm pretty certain that even if we were, we'd still be beating real world laptimes in the sims...

If I'm honest I feel it's easier to push the boundaries without exceeding them in real life then in video games.
I say this for a couple reasons, but the most notable obvious thing I see is that at times I've missed apexes by 5-10 feet in GT5, something that's never happened to me in my limited experience in real life.
Since I'm comparing it to myself, there's no "driver factor" involved in this particular calculation either.

In video games we have to drive without all of our senses helping us, we're essentially handicapped. I think the reasons lap times don't match are many, but I figure that to be a prime reason, along with all the extra laps we run.

These times people compare from real life are set in just a few laps, and it blows my mind that some people compare them to what people achieve in the game after 100 laps, and having pushed the boundaries in every single corner of a track multiple times to get a "perfect" run.
The only reason I bother mentioning it is because I get tired of hearing people claim lower grade tires are needed to match reality in terms of performance, and there's really nothing to back that up once you factor in all the variables.

I don't think the Nurburgring is modeled poorly in GT5, it's the best I've seen, and I don't think most premium cars are modeled that poorly either, nor do I think they all come with the "wrong tires" as many claim.
I do think the game could stand to make the hills appear steeper though.

 

[lancia delta hf]

There are other aspects that havent been taken into account as to why gt times are faster,

If the same cars are used and the car weights 1500kg's, Then in gt5 it weights 1500kg's, On the real life track it weights 1500kg's plus the drivers weight and the weight of the fuel,

Then there is another aspect that has nothing to do with fear or crashing the car etc, And that is the physical assertion driving at speeds on a real track has on the human body, In gt5 its literally no sweat, In real life its demanding on the body and top that with driving on a bend at speed whilst gravity is trying to pull you away from the direction you want to go, Things that gt dont or simply cant portay

 

[CSLACR]

That's awfully presumptuous. How do you know driver weight isn't factored in GT5?
And if so, how is that a defense for GT5?

Surely they know a human has to sit in the car to operate it, so even if PD forgot to add that effect, it's a GT5 flaw, and nothing more.

 

[eran0004]

It's because the field of view is different in that camera than what it is in game. In game the fov is wide (zoomed out), in the video it's narrow (zoomed in).

 

[Cosbuster]

If you want a 1:1 comparison with the real Nurburgring. Wait till PS4 is out. And pray that PS4 is equipped with GTX590 SLi.

You can have a 1:1 perfect replica running on a pentium 2, it's not about the power. It's about the extreme cost and time required to laser-scan a 20km track.

 

[CSLACR]

I thought PD did laser scan tracks?

 

[208SpeedGeek]

That's awfully presumptuous. How do you know driver weight isn't factored in GT5?
And if so, how is that a defense for GT5?

Surely they know a human has to sit in the car to operate it, so even if PD forgot to add that effect, it's a GT5 flaw, and nothing more.

Driver weight is something that isn't factored in. I've compared specs for real life cars vs. their GT5 counterparts and the specs usually match-HP, torque and empty weight.

I always add 80 kilos to my cars for driver weight.

 

[lancia delta hf]

That's awfully presumptuous. How do you know driver weight isn't factored in GT5?
And if so, how is that a defense for GT5?

Surely they know a human has to sit in the car to operate it, so even if PD forgot to add that effect, it's a GT5 flaw, and nothing more.

Nevertheless driving a perfomance car in gt5 is not demanding on the body like in real life, I am in no way trying to find a defense for gt but trying to find the answer to the op!

 

[CSLACR]

Driver weight is something that isn't factored in. I've compared specs for real life cars vs. their GT5 counterparts and the specs usually match-HP, torque and empty weight.

I always add 80 kilos to my cars for driver weight.

I'm not talking about the listed specs. If you look at Chevy's listed specs, they don't include driver weight either.
My point is, how do you know PD didn't account a default body weight into all cars performance on the track? Meaning 1500KG car drives like a 1575KG car out on the road.

Surely PD did not test any cars performance without a driver in the car, so where would they even get the information required to not factor in driver weight? 💡

Nevertheless driving a perfomance car in gt5 is not demanding on the body like in real life, I am in no way trying to find a defense for gt but trying to find the answer to the op!

Actually the OP was referring more specifically to hills and banks, curbing, etc rather then lap times.
As for bodily effort, that's been discussed, and for professional race drivers that can race for hours on end, some of us decided the obvious choice is that physical strain really isn't a factor for a professional driving one single hot lap.

If we were talking about a 4 hour race, I'd be in complete agreement with you though.

 

[Dapper]

I always add 80 kilos to my cars for driver weight.

That is over 20kg more than a non-nascar driver!
A jockey isn't going to race a horse when he (the jockey) weighs much more 110lbs, the same rule will apply to cars sooner than later.

And I am pretty sure death, or the fear of death, is not a deterrent for going fast. Did anyone else see the first few laps at Las Vegas in the IRL race?

 

[208SpeedGeek]

Surely PD did not test any cars performance without a driver in the car, so where would they even get the information required to not factor in driver weight?

Ahhh I get what you're saying. Hmmm... Something to think about...

 

[208SpeedGeek]

That is over 20kg more than a non-nascar driver!

Haha! I'm just going for an average adult males weight. Most racecar drivers are a bit under 80kg

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

How many times do we have to say this!?!?
Nurb needs more taco stands !

 

[CSLACR]

To be honest it's actually even better then I thought it was, some weird lenscrafting going on in the Vette video.
The only issue I see is the colors look almost unnaturally bright in GT5, which I imagine change depending on the season.

 

[Brend]

The Nurb on GT is the best I've played, that camera lens seems to be playing tricks with my mind.