Nurburgring Nordschleife, in which game it is more realistic?

georgetigra
link please!!
i thing i see it somewhere but i can't find it!
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See me post above. Its an anecdotal story told by one of the instructors at the 'ring to highlight the dangers of learning the track on FM and GT.
 
I agree with Scaff, nothing can replace real life driving, simulation only tries to emulate, using virtual track to know beforehand the basic layout and general track knowledge is fine, but never depend on it to attack the track in real life. Which is why lap times in game like FM or GT is pretty much pointless when measuring a real life driver's skills. It may give rough indication of how a driver could adapt to virtual sim, but translating that to real driving is another whole dimension, and not everyone can drive fast on both.
 
Let's not blame the game(s) because of an human mistake. Why do you think the GT Academy program doesn't just throws the players into a real racing situation right away?

No matter how many laps you have on any virtual track. Once you step inside a real car, in the most basics of turns, everything you learnt goes out the window. Fact.

There are positive and negative sides to all this. Some idiot believes that the track in the game is the spiting image of the real one, so this idiot goes and does exactly what it would do in the game. Big mistake.

And then you have the more sensible of people, who uses the virtual track to get a general idea and be prepared to learn the real track. It's like studying a map before getting into the real car.

Remember Sebastian Loeb in 2005? He never set foot in Le Mans, all he had was a GT4 and a DFP to play with on the way to Le Mans. And (besides previous training with the car in test situations) that was all it took for him to be prepared to take on the real thing.

As for which game represents the track with more accuracy, I can't really say, as I have never been to the real Nurburgring. All those videos around the web seem to do a pretty good job, but nothing will ever replace the real thing. :sly:
 
Nobody is blaming the games, they're just saying that no matter how realistic they are they can't prepare you for the real thing.

It's not extremely relevent to the point of the question I guess but still.
 
Loskey1
That's Rfactor pro which isn't available to the public.

The version of the nordschleife which is on Rfactor is not laser scanned
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^This. It is clear both whistlesnap and cargorat have not tried rfactor once.

But the GT5 version is still quite off, just by looking at videos, and obviously you cannot think you have learned a track by playing it on a videogame/sim, no matter if it is laser scanned and best physics available. The point has been proven quite a few times, most notorious example being Huttu (best simracer).
 
I can't understand how people could be so stupid, thinking they know the Nordschleife from the videogame

There's elevations, different surfaces and a lot of other factors (only regarding the track itself). Like the crayon paintings, they produce a lower grip level even in dry condition... All those things are not simulated properly in any game yet.

Then of course, a real car on the real track... I can't think of any way people could have such a loss of reality believing they could go all flat out on their very first lap of Nordschleife, but to conclude they must be mentally ill and should go get themselves checked.
 
SimonK
Nobody is blaming the games, they're just saying that no matter how realistic they are they can't prepare you for the real thing.

It's not extremely relevent to the point of the question I guess but still.
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My apologies, my words may have been a bit too harsh on the subject. You managed to say everything I wanted in a much simple, yet very effective way. 👍

I am yet to master the English language! :dunce:
 
GT5s representation is very good, especially compared to Forza 4 which is way too wide and starts where you would only start on a track day.
 
Test Drive Ferrari Legends



I must say, pretty decent indeed. Elevation could be better though, noticable between "Schwedenkreuz" (km 5) and "Fuchsröhre" (km 6)... about min. 1:35 in the video
 
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Scaff
Odd how you forgot to mention that the article in question.....

http://jalopnik.com/5951049/the-irrepressible-allure-of-the-nurburgring


.....also singles out GT5 as being just as much of an issue.

Ohh just as my linked to pieces earlier did.

This is the result of thinking that GT4 is a better way to learn the 'ring:

crash.jpg




The same source on 'learning the 'ring' via GT5 (and one of the videos most often used to cite GT5's realism):



http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php/home/amusingamazing/320-playstation-heroes
http://www.bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php/home/touristenfahrten/324-playstation-heroes-part-2

So while GT5's 'ring is 'more' accurate that FM's (of that no doubt exists) anyone who tells you that GT5's is good enough to learn the track well and/or avoid accidents is either an idiot and/or never been to the track and/or has little to no actual track driving experience.
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I could agree with this, but it is quite obvious that Gran Turismo 5 drivers have had more success in the real world than Forza drivers. Is this ONLY because of GTAcademy? Possibly.. But relating Gran Turismo 5 to real life is immensely easier then relating FM4 to the real world.

Back to the topic of, "Who's Ring is better"..
You can hardly tell they are on the same track.

GT5 wins.
 
Never seen that video before mitch. I've never set foot on any forza game (due to financial reasons, not fanboy reasons), but go greef! You can clear most of the track with your foot down! :crazy:

Also...hey! check that out! Xbox has menus in cheesy translated Portuguese! Cool! +1 for google translator! :lol:
 
Deko Wolf-GTPT
Never seen that video before mitch. I've never set foot on any forza game (due to financial reasons, not fanboy reasons), but go greef! You can clear most of the track with your foot down! :crazy:

Also...hey! check that out! Xbox has menus in cheesy translated Portuguese! Cool! +1 for google translator! :lol:
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Yeah, I feel like it is pretty embarrassing to a Forza guy watching that video. :lol:
 
Videogames can give you a slightly notion of the corners. Same as study a GPS, same effect. Which is an advantage on who never seen it before.

But of course race in a videogame is totally different than do it for real. :lol:
 
Still believe GT5's Nurburgring is better. I never trusted the Nurburg in the Forza series, and turns out I was right after all. Not being a fanboy, just stating my opinion. Hahaha. :sly:
 
I'd argue that you can learn considerably more than just track layout from a good simulation. Lots of real drivers make use of Iracing and its super-accurate tracks for getting a sense of the brake points and cornering speeds as well as basic layout. But beyond that I think you can actually get a fair bit of training in the area of racecraft from a good sim that features online racing. I know from my own experience in a Grand Prix Legends league a decade ago that races were incredibly mentally grueling - you really had to develop a strong sense of what was happening around you as far as what other drivers were doing...racetrack situational awareness so to speak. Now obviously, its considerably different from the real thing, but it is a worthwhile step in that direction. Theres a reason real race teams (not to mention pilot training facilities and military branches) use computer simulation in their training regimes.

The big thing thats missing from most sims is the Gs - the seat of the pants feel of driving a car. Even full motion sims don't really do a good job of that.

But by no means would it be wise to expect to go from GT5 or any other game/sim to the real Ring and start running fast laps. That would be foolhardy to say the least...
 
If you play GT5 with a DS3, on your house's couch, like me... you only know the layout. g-forces and braking points will change, for sure. Tire condition, temperature, track temperature, etc... all that change braking points and so on.
 
of course, but thats all stuff that would change from day to day on a real track too. Part of being a good driver is being able to adapt to those changes. I didn't say the sims would be exact. I said they can give an approximation...
 
MOTORTRENDmitch
I could agree with this, but it is quite obvious that Gran Turismo 5 drivers have had more success in the real world than Forza drivers. Is this ONLY because of GTAcademy? Possibly..
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The GT Acadamy is a marketing exercise for PD and Sony, yes its has produced a number of solid drivers, however that doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of GTs accuracy as a sim.



MOTORTRENDmitch
But relating Gran Turismo 5 to real life is immensely easier then relating FM4 to the real world.
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I would 100% disagree, GT5 has some massive holes in the physics engine that FM4 is at least staring to cover, that however is a topic for another thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226995



MOTORTRENDmitch
Back to the topic of, "Who's Ring is better"..
You can hardly tell they are on the same track.

GT5 wins.
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No doubt exists that GT5's model is better than FM4's, the risk comes in those who then think that means that GT's model is accurate enough for real world situations.
 
Scaff
No doubt exists that GT5's model is better than FM4's, the risk comes in those who then think that means that GT's model is accurate enough for real world situations.
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You can learn the track with game but game does not teach you to drive. Practising with game is like you having phase notes, which of course do not make you a rally driver. I think GT5 driving with ABS 0 and comfort tires teaches you about braking and corner entry fairly well. Real driving requires many other skills that GT5 does not simulate, most important of which is heel-toe down-shifting and generally importance of rev-matching with manual.
 
MOTORTRENDmitch
Yeah, I feel like it is pretty embarrassing to a Forza guy watching that video. :lol:
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Phrases like this are just as bad as 'fanboy'. In case you haven't noticed throughout this thread FM4 players (Sorry, "Forza Guys") have universally accepted, like grown men with rational thoughts, that the FM model is very poor. It's a shame some "GT guys" aren't the same when it comes to weaknesses in GT5.
 
Raitziger
You can learn the track with game but game does not teach you to drive. Practising with game is like you having phase notes, which of course do not make you a rally driver. I think GT5 driving with ABS 0 and comfort tires teaches you about braking and corner entry fairly well. Real driving requires many other skills that GT5 does not simulate, most important of which is heel-toe down-shifting and generally importance of rev-matching with manual.
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You can only learn the track in the game if the track is 100% accurate in every way and no version currently is, the results of assuming otherwise are quite clearly laid out in the articles I linked to (written by an instructor at the 'ring).
 
georgetigra
Day2 BMW 325i SMG

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These people can do what they want but a darn good ensurance is recommended.

I still think it's insane to go out like that after the 5th lap ever and having seen manys who's ego's have made them lose a lot of things including lots of money to body parts and even lifes, I am still shocked by videos like that. Watch it again real closely, he reacts wrong a couple of times he's close on loosing it and by the way he reacts you can tell there was more luck involved than anything.
 
Scaff
The GT Acadamy is a marketing exercise for PD and Sony, yes its has produced a number of solid drivers, however that doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of GTs accuracy as a sim.
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Interestingly enough, Bryan Heitkotter was one of my league mates in the GPL league I mentioned above. He was an "alien" back then...just ridiculously fast in pretty much every sim he tried. I actually met him on a Gran Turismo forum back before GT2 came out and we've "known" each other since then. He's pretty big into Iracing too. But he's also been an autocross driver for years as well so he has lots of real world driving experience too. He's a real nice guy too...
 
Scaff
The GT Acadamy is a marketing exercise for PD and Sony, yes its has produced a number of solid drivers, however that doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of GTs accuracy as a sim.
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And what means that the same Academy guys doing great at the game with realistic setups, are doing good and knowledgeable at the real tests previous all the program of professional training? why they perform as good with little or no experience as more experienced drivers? are all the tests in the GT Academy faked or they have learned basic car control and fast track driving throught the game? no at the same level of course but enought to adapt and learn faster than someone with no game and no real track experience.

A different Academy with racing soft tyres, SRF, driving AIDs and gamepads will select the same type of players? they will perform as good as they are doing now with sim players? it's obvious, same as mario kart best players will do very bad in a GT Academy.

This vid is also interesting, "massive holes" apart seems that GT5 do what matter at a great level.

 
Zer0
And what means that the same Academy guys doing great at the game with realistic setups, are doing good and knowledgeable at the real tests previous all the program of professional training? why they perform as good with little or no experience as more experienced drivers? are all the tests in the GT Academy faked or they have learned basic car control and fast track driving throught the game? no at the same level of course but enought to adapt and learn faster than someone with no game and no real track experience.
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The academy is designed specifically to identify those with good reflexes (and able to turn in consistently fast times), who are willing and able to learn, react well under pressure and have a certain degree of fitness. The GTA (as in the GT5 part of it) covers two of those bases well (reflexes and then in later stages the pressure of direct competition). GT5 offers nothing that any other sim would not be able to do just as well, not to mention other tests and activities would do. That its aimed at GT players of course also provides a good degree of interest in motorsport.

Now if the GTA programe actually took someone straight from the game and threw them into a licence test (as in an actual race licence) you might have a point, but it doesn't and GT5 itself plays only a very minor part of the final selection process.


Zer0
A different Academy with racing soft tyres, SRF, driving AIDs and gamepads will select the same type of players? they will perform as good as they are doing now with sim players? it's obvious, same as mario kart best players will do very bad in a GT Academy.
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No really true however, the consistently fastest players would still be the most consistently fast players, and those able to do that under pressure would still make it the furthest in the head to heads. Those able to demonstrate the qualities outside of the 'sim' would still prevail in the finals.

The GTA is a wonderfully designed marketing tool that offers an opportunity to a few that is well deserved and Sony and Nissan deserve kudos for that, but it doesn't make GT5 the 'better' sim as a result.


Zer0
This vid is also interesting, "massive holes" apart seems that GT5 do what matter at a great level.

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You mean aside from the steering angle, counter steer, point of apex, etc being different on nearly every corner?

This is all however a discussion for another thread, one I have already provided a link to.
 
I'd like to take advantage on the existance of this thread to point out the situation "the Ring" is currently in, the more people are aware of it the better.

As a Rhineland-Palatinate native I look at this as a very important message coming from the heart!



Save the Ring!

SaveTheRing.org
 

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