OK, GT Sport, it was fun, but...

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Germany
Bonn
Just a few thoughts, no rant really. I know a lot of people are feeling the same way. Please excuse my crappy English, it’s not my mother tongue. I hope to bring my point across though.

After a year of GT Sport PD has succeeded in seeding substantial doubt in me about their will to cater to a more professional and therefore demanding target group.

Surely, there’s no perfect sim on the market, and GT is absolutely great for jumping into a car, getting into a lobby and race your heart out. When it comes to Sport Mode though, the picture is quite different.

For one, the selection of car/track/wear combinations is so off at times that you have to doubt PD‘s responsible team‘s sanity. They seem to have external advisors, actual drivers, too, but it sure seems that sanity checking these combinations is no task assigned to them or PD just blatantly ignores their input.

Just look at last nights‘ Nations‘: No one with a fundamental wish to not crush his SR would do that race, ever, and even in the top split people suffered severe SR losses down to A. In the lower tiers I‘ve heard that quite a few suffered DR resets as they went below an SR threshold.

Looking at the daily races it’s a mixed bag, too. There, due to the, say, outlandish penalty system it‘s down to pure luck to surviving a midfield start unblemished. I personally do Dailies now only if I‘m completely superior in my quali time and can start from pole. Even then the following cars manage to kill me from time to time with senseless divebombs and overall crappy driving.

Since PD seems reluctant enough to do anything about only those two aspects mentioned (we‘re not even going to touch the points system in Sport Mode etc.), like rethink the current DR/SR system in order to better separate between differentiating driver skills, the logical step for anyone with a higher standard than „just drive“ is to look over the fence.

I personally will be getting into iracing increasingly. I will be racing in GT also, but more as a means of relaxation than to aspire to a competitive level. I know a lot of people are pondering that now. I‘ll always be open to any changes in GT that insure or enforce good competitive clean racing. There are a lot of nice sims out there, and iracing certainly is not the cure all, but from a certain license and irating onwards it seems that their system ensures enjoyable and demanding competition in a well thought out way.

It‘s a shame really as to some of the current problems in GT the solution seems to be relatively simple. But since I‘m not seeing the necessary steps being taken, actually more a kind of unreasonable stubbornness to maybe depart from the set (or beaten) path to counter obvious shortfalls, I‘ll have to look for my luck elsewhere.
 
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I still really enjoy the game, but I find myself racing less and less in sport mode and spending more time in lobbies and events from the racing section, oh..and Tidgneys Mini Madness which is just brilliant. DR and SR rating needs a re-think, but matching like minded people with a similar skill set is never going to be easy, I would urge everyone who has a genuine interest in racing to try some of the excellent events on offer in the racing section.
 
OK, GT Sport, it was fun, but...

I quite enjoyed the game in the biginning with the real Daily races,and always wished an "expansion" adding weekly events, endurance events , monthly events en special events in the sport mode.

The drivers rating didn't improved quite a lot,it's even completely broken allowing "cheats" in certain aspects.
It should have more attention from PD instead expanding the game and offline crappy GT league.

Those are aspects that made my interest in playing Sport mode going to 0

I just don't like the obligation to be connected to internet also to save progress, what will happen once support ends? Useless game? At least in older games of GT you can keep playing, progress in offline,buy cars..

The lobbies in GT sport,I'm sorry,but they are utterly crap... having still the same bugs/issues than GT6 like people that don't see each other on track with others added like car keep stuck,cars going crazy, autopilot not disengaging, people that don't see each other in the proper lobby....and missing options like "single make", qualifying session, voice chat...
It's the only racing game that I've got so much problems in lobbies... And that's a shame and a real game breaker for me ...

I found the normal campaign mode easy,but entertaining, shame that they don't expand the missions.

Love the photomode, scapes and livery editor...but after a time now...I just don't feel any willing to play GT sport anymore

And for personalized lobbies and racing leagues I stayed in other Sims available on PS4 cause the problems GT sport have in their lobbies.

This game got some good ideas,but ended up being an mediocre GT for me..I expected quite more than just beautiful graphics, modeling and illumination.. those are aspects that don't gonna make me come back to the game.

Hopefully next GT expand the good ideas from GT sport,fix those problems in lobbies that some of them are there since 2013 and brings back the magic from the older GT Saga games
 
*excuses for crappy english
*uses academic-level phrases in first paragraph

In terms of topic, it is hard to consider Sport Mode a viable all-professional esports platform when huge majority of the players there are gifted amateurs at best and consider Sport Mode as a regular multiplayer, not a competitive platform. Making a competitive mode in shooters is much easier: you kill opposing team's players and try to protect your own teams. In racing games it doesn't really work that way: you need to learn tracks, consider tyre wear, get used to cars, so on so forth. The entrance level is much higher, especially considering that most of the people treat it as some sort of FlatOut game

Unless you're an alien that kicks ass of vast majority of the players online, there isn't much sense in Sport Mode as a competitive platform, because you might treat the race seriously, but the guy at the back of the field might not

Just my opinion on the matter
 
Unless you're an alien that kicks ass of vast majority of the players online, there isn't much sense in Sport Mode as a competitive platform...

The same can be said for any competitive activity. Aliens aren't born and you either have to grow content in your mediocrity or drive yourself to excel at a higher level. Blaming the video game or any arbitrary activity for that discrepancy seems silly.
 
I think, if everyone playing in Sport Mode had the same intention the racing would be great. That isn't the case though, the game rewards speed over safety, its possible for me to bump a few people because I am not really in control of my car at all times, hit the wall a couple of times at one of the Tokyo events, but able to string a clean and fast lap together once every four laps and escape safer racers, results, slight SR down but my driver rating goes up.
It encourages and rewards overly aggressive racing.
Take the DR and SR out of the game and we have GT6 for PS4.
 
The same can be said for any competitive activity. Aliens aren't born and you either have to grow content in your mediocrity or drive yourself to excel at a higher level. Blaming the video game or any arbitrary activity for that discrepancy seems silly.
I think what he's getting at is the manner in which other people affect your ability to perform. If you compete at e.g. swimming, you swim in your own lane and don't have other swimmers coming into your lane and blocking you. So no matter what your standard, you can compete and enjoy performing at your own level. The thing that can be a nightmare in GT Sport is getting into a midfield melee, and the way the rating system works, almost everyone ends up in that midfield melee once they have risen to their true driver rating. The only people who can avoid it are those good enough to almost always be near the front of top split.

The reason why the midfield melee is such a problem in GT Sport is the way the penalty and rating system doesn't accurately enforce real world rules of racing. You have enough slack that some people feel they can get away with prioritising race placing above avoidance of contact, but at the same time, the attribution of blame is inaccurate enough that you can be a super clean driver but take a SR hammering.

I think GT Sport is an interesting step in the right direction, though, and to me it hands down beats any other console racing game for online multiplayer experience. The OP is talking about iRacing as the alternative, and I think the fact that is seen as the competition is actually a huge compliment to what GT Sport has brought to consoles. Whether they are looking to improve the "midfield melee" situation, or even see it as a priority in the list of things to address, is hard to say. Last night's Nations was a mistake in race setup, I'd say, the L1T1 mayhem could have been greatly reduced if a rolling start with a carefully chosen gap between drivers had been used. I actually felt that the tyre wear was well chosen, with it finely balanced between 0-stop and 1-stop. Perhaps next time GTP get the opportunity to talk to PD, they could ask about how they choose the race parameters, and whether they are aware some of their choices have been regarded as poor.
 
I know the conversation is GT centric, but the OP mentions iRacing and moving on to other sims.
They are all appealing in their own way, in fact we were just having this conversation on another site and I summed up my opinions something like this.

iRacing
Iracing gif 2.gif

iracing gif.gif


GT Sport
GT Sport gif.gif


Assetto Corsa
assetto corsa.gif


Raceroom
raceroom gif.gif


rFactor 2
computer-monitor-animated-gif-7.gif


Project Cars
PC2 gif.gif


Assetto Corsa Competizione
ACC gif.gif


And you have to give Wreckfest some love
wreckfest gif.gif


Race them all, enjoy the diversity and just have fun. That's why we're here right?
 
If my internet "research" is correct, the launch price of the standard GTS pack was $59.99. I bought the Digital Deluxe version in January this year for quite a bit less in a sale at the Sony store.

If it's given a full year of enjoyment, I would say that's money well spent. I've had it for 7 months now, been on it most days, am still thoroughly enjoying it and nowhere near completed the various car / track combos that are available. It's probably cost me something like $0.10 per day so far and given me a "new" hobby. Bargain!

I can understand that for the better, more competitive drivers the novelty will wear off more quickly - but if you get a year out of it, I think you've done well.

GT7 will be out soon and we can all start again! :cheers:
 
I actually think dr sr works pretty well. That said I do agree that it’s not there.
If you want to race it requires tremendous patience and willingness to accept getting mini punted to maintain sr at 99.
At AS BS the majority of players still bump pass.
To gain dr you are semi forced to drive a bit arcade.
For myself, I don’t enjoy that.
The game is awesome. What people do is farm rating when they get that magic combo then use alt accounts for dailies.
The alt account in many cases is high level playerstesting and practicing dirty ness to learn limits for their real account, and in general be casual.
So although I am not gonna do an alt account I reccomend it.
The game is great.
With video games though the majority of gamers cheat and that’s reality.
 
I think what he's getting at is the manner in which other people affect your ability to perform. If you compete at e.g. swimming, you swim in your own lane and don't have other swimmers coming into your lane and blocking you. So no matter what your standard, you can compete and enjoy performing at your own level. The thing that can be a nightmare in GT Sport is getting into a midfield melee, and the way the rating system works, almost everyone ends up in that midfield melee once they have risen to their true driver rating. The only people who can avoid it are those good enough to almost always be near the front of top split.

No rule set is perfect and all sports/activities have ways that players undermine and skirt the design of the game. There's nothing about this that is unique to GT Sport despite GT Sport having it's own unique and problematic issues. By the OP's logic, any sport with a problematic rule set fails at being a proper competitive platform. GT Sport has some massive flaws but it's still a jump, leap, and a stretch to just disqualify the platform entirely.
 
I wouldn't mind racing with some more like minded 'no contact' drivers. However GT Sport's jump in daily races are simply too convenient to ignore. I did some research into player numbers a few weeks ago and gathered this together

Project cars is listed on steam with avg 230 players a day still playing.
Project cars 2 is at avg 1000 players a day still playing (on or offline)
Dirt Rally 2, 430 a day
Dirt Rally, 300 a day
iRacing, 72 a day

So while iRacing might set a great standard for fair racing, simply jumping in whenever and have a full race start within 10 minutes is not on the table. GT Sport still has 30K daily active players in sport mode alone, or about 80k active in sport mode each week of 660k playing each week over all. And that's still too low to get matchmaking to work properly. If all the millions of people that shoot each other in the face daily would get interested in racing matchmaking would get better.

However an overhaul of the SR system would improve sport mode as well and draw more people back into racing instead of chasing the qualifying leaderboards. Changing from daily to weekly has also shifted attention much more to qualifying and basically time trialling. Some people don't even race until the end of the week, > 90% time spend qualifying. And why not with this penalty system...
 
I still think there should be a weekly qualifying race for each Daily.

Limit the DR/SR +/- for the the qualifying race. Give everyone at least one risk free race to start the week. If unsatisfied with the result, try again.

Then match based on qualifying race. Not overall SR or DR. The matchmaking would be based more on consistency and familiarity for that race than it is now which is an overall rating which sometimes means nothing if someone if unfamiliar with the race.
 
I can understand that for the better, more competitive drivers the novelty will wear off more quickly - but if you get a year out of it, I think you've done well.

GT7 will be out soon and we can all start again! :cheers:

Yeah, I‘m not complaining, I‘ve had my share of fun and competition for sure :)

I don’t expect GT7 to be out before the launch of PS5, so we are looking at Q4/2020 at the earliest.

*excuses for crappy english
*uses academic-level phrases in first paragraph

Guess that’s my level of sophistication shining through, in life, in languages, in racing... Or it‘s the German in me :lol: Only the optimum will do. Can’t help it. Pills didn’t help either *shrug*
 
*excuses for crappy english
*uses academic-level phrases in first paragraph

In terms of topic, it is hard to consider Sport Mode a viable all-professional esports platform when huge majority of the players there are gifted amateurs at best and consider Sport Mode as a regular multiplayer, not a competitive platform. Making a competitive mode in shooters is much easier: you kill opposing team's players and try to protect your own teams. In racing games it doesn't really work that way: you need to learn tracks, consider tyre wear, get used to cars, so on so forth. The entrance level is much higher, especially considering that most of the people treat it as some sort of FlatOut game

The problem is, a lot of them treat it as if they are playing Mario Kart. I'm convinced a lot of the Yahoo's from South America would throw banana peels if they could. Am I rite @Trone_Colby ? :lol:

I think what he's getting at is the manner in which other people affect your ability to perform. If you compete at e.g. swimming, you swim in your own lane and don't have other swimmers coming into your lane and blocking you. So no matter what your standard, you can compete and enjoy performing at your own level. The thing that can be a nightmare in GT Sport is getting into a midfield melee, and the way the rating system works, almost everyone ends up in that midfield melee once they have risen to their true driver rating. The only people who can avoid it are those good enough to almost always be near the front of top split.

The reason why the midfield melee is such a problem in GT Sport is the way the penalty and rating system doesn't accurately enforce real world rules of racing. You have enough slack that some people feel they can get away with prioritising race placing above avoidance of contact, but at the same time, the attribution of blame is inaccurate enough that you can be a super clean driver but take a SR hammering.

Midfield mele's , interesting term. So when I'm driving on the proper line and someone goes off the track and tries to re-enter by slamming into my side multiple times, only to be bounced off my car and back off the track, resulting in me in either a SR drop, a penalty or both, is that what that is called?

I know the conversation is GT centric, but the OP mentions iRacing and moving on to other sims.
They are all appealing in their own way, in fact we were just having this conversation on another site and I summed up my opinions something like this.

GT Sport
View attachment 838181

Project Cars
View attachment 838185


Race them all, enjoy the diversity and just have fun. That's why we're here right?

Those R8's... :cheers:

GT7 will be out soon and we can all start again! :cheers:

Please define "Soon"
 
Midfield mele's , interesting term. So when I'm driving on the proper line and someone goes off the track and tries to re-enter by slamming into my side multiple times, only to be bounced off my car and back off the track, resulting in me in either a SR drop, a penalty or both, is that what that is called?
Yep, that's the sort of thing I coined that term for. One definition of melee in the dictionary is "a situation that is confused and not under control". It's most pronounced in the middle of the field where you tend to have the greatest density of cars on the track.
 
I think in terms of online racing it is what it is.
What was bothering me is getting to a level requiring too much effort.
At that point it stops being fun.
If you learn tracks and do your best with an investment of time that works for you, and accept what the game is, it’s pretty dang good.
What else would you do race AI?
For myself its expectations that cause frustration, that and taking things too seriously.
I’m far more apt to have a tantrum against the high level people because I know they know better.
If you expect real people to behave perfectly online IN A VIDEO GAME, then I think you set yourself up for disappointment.
One thing this game does well is simulate...

The nature of competition is what it is.
Irl people cheat
online people cheat
Irl mistakes happen
Online mistakes happen.
It’s why I am intentionally lowering my ranking.
I wanna race more not look at stats and leaderboard times and compare against people playing hours upon hours with unlimited retries. It’s a question at some point of who is more bored than anything.
Great racing happens but you gotta race to find it.
The question to ask yourself is are you trying to get to live events?
If not then rank is irrelevant, besides running a comfortable qual lap to start near folks with similar times.

I dunno about dirt Rally 2 numbers above. On my cross platform leaderboards in that game on dailies there’s way more times than those numbers.
In that game on daily challenges there is no retry or qual. You start a rally you entered you get what you get.
Mistake? Keep going.
I really really like that.
I saw stats of a player I ran across recently really fun race.
It was like seeing me 400 races down the road.
90 plus sr rising dr trend for early career then at some point the graph indicated he just gave up on going higher and raced whatever whenever. Probably made it more fun and that’s what I am gonna do.
 
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I think, if everyone playing in Sport Mode had the same intention the racing would be great. That isn't the case though, the game rewards speed over safety, its possible for me to bump a few people because I am not really in control of my car at all times, hit the wall a couple of times at one of the Tokyo events, but able to string a clean and fast lap together once every four laps and escape safer racers, results, slight SR down but my driver rating goes up.
It encourages and rewards overly aggressive racing.
Take the DR and SR out of the game and we have GT6 for PS4.

If light damage was a standard parameter, I think things would change a bit more for the better. It's one thing to avoid contact to avoid penalties, it's another to also worry about contact actually impacting the performance of your car.
 
I did some research into player numbers a few weeks ago and gathered this together

Project cars is listed on steam with avg 230 players a day still playing.
Project cars 2 is at avg 1000 players a day still playing (on or offline)
Dirt Rally 2, 430 a day
Dirt Rally, 300 a day
iRacing, 72 a day

So while iRacing might set a great standard for fair racing, simply jumping in whenever and have a full race start within 10 minutes is not on the table.

There are around 5,000 players on the iracing servers at pretty much any time of the day, so at least the iracing number can’t be correct. There are at least 50 simultaneous races with usually 15+ drivers each plus people waiting, testing, practicing, doing time trials or time attacks.

I agree, it‘s not plug and play, that’s exactly GT‘s strength! That’s why I‘ll do both, the „serious“ stuff on iracing and the fun hop in and do a race stuff on GT.
 
I agree, it‘s not plug and play, that’s exactly GT‘s strength!
It's not so much it not being plug and play as the cost, and space a setup will occupy. I don't know what % of iRacing players use triple screens or 32:9 single screens, but it's a significant investment in hardware to have a level playing field against those that do, as well as the significant cost of the game subscription plus cars and tracks. So I'm more inclined to stick with GT Sport and see what the PS5 brings.

And I have to say, when I watch iRacing on YouTube, it never seems very exciting. I read this the other day:
http://www.robertgray.net.au/posts/how-to-get-to-a-3000-irating-on-iracing
"Probably mid to late 2012 I asked my friend how he has an iRating of 4500 and I an iRating of 2500 when we're often fighting each other on the track - about the same speed. Clearly pace isn't everything. He said "I try and finish every single race. If someone comes up to me and they look like they want to get past, I let them through". My mind boggled. But doesn't that go against everything a racing driver stands for?"

Now, I don't like the GTS midfield melee, but equally, a game that makes people so averse to contact that they just pull over and let anyone who gets close to them past, that seems like it's going a bit far the other way.
 
I’m still having fun, but I only play maybe two or three times a week at the most. It’s good but not good enough to be my go-to racing game. Especially since we have so many other options out there compared to just 4 or 5 years ago. GT just doesn’t really capture me as much as it used to in the ps2 days. Even though this is my first GT playing with a wheel.

I kind of wish the dailys and FIA races had separate ratings though, mostly because of the penalty system.
 
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iRacing, 72 a day

So while iRacing might set a great standard for fair racing, simply jumping in whenever and have a full race start within 10 minutes is not on the table.

Uh, I'm on now. There's 3743 iracers you must be using only Steam to look things up. Nobody synchs their iRacing/steam accounts.
 
Grass is always greener...

But it is, buddy! :lol:

If light damage was a standard parameter, I think things would change a bit more for the better. It's one thing to avoid contact to avoid penalties, it's another to also worry about contact actually impacting the performance of your car.

Actually, I think heavy damage would bring some degree of cure, nothing else. I would be thrilled if they did that at least for all the FIA races. Because that would result in only people competing there who can actually drive, know the track and can and want to keep it clean.

It's not so much it not being plug and play as the cost, and space a setup will occupy. I don't know what % of iRacing players use triple screens or 32:9 single screens, but it's a significant investment in hardware to have a level playing field against those that do, as well as the significant cost of the game subscription plus cars and tracks. So I'm more inclined to stick with GT Sport and see what the PS5 brings.

And I have to say, when I watch iRacing on YouTube, it never seems very exciting. I read this the other day:
http://www.robertgray.net.au/posts/how-to-get-to-a-3000-irating-on-iracing
"Probably mid to late 2012 I asked my friend how he has an iRating of 4500 and I an iRating of 2500 when we're often fighting each other on the track - about the same speed. Clearly pace isn't everything. He said "I try and finish every single race. If someone comes up to me and they look like they want to get past, I let them through". My mind boggled. But doesn't that go against everything a racing driver stands for?"

Now, I don't like the GTS midfield melee, but equally, a game that makes people so averse to contact that they just pull over and let anyone who gets close to them past, that seems like it's going a bit far the other way.

*sighs* Whenever iracing comes up there will be the MONEY argument made. YES, it can get substantially expensive, compared to a G29 or a controller! YES, iracing is a near professional sim that is not so much for the casual player. When I competed in triathlons 20 years ago I payed over 2000€ per year just for starting fees. My bikes cost 16000 € and I had to buy a pair of 160€ running shoes every 3 to 4 months. Compared to that, skydiving, diving, actual track racing and a gazillion other hobbies, simracing is still dirt cheap. Even with a DD, Triple Screen Setup and all the bells and whistles.

Finishing every race, as clean as possible, will get your license rating up, NOT your irating beyond a certain point. Then again, 3000 is not that high of an irating, rather lower midfield. At 4000 and above just finishing and not driving for position won’t do the trick.
 
Every time I get get frustrated with GTS ,I try to remember this PD'S first GT game based on online racing .Has everybody forgotten the nightmare of multiple disconnects with the Quick Matches and THE TROLLS WHO DROVE AROUND BACKWARDS JUST TO RUIN EVERYBODY'S RACE .We wanted competitive racing and we got it .Albeit not perfect ,but we live in a imperfect world .I'm hoping the next game addresses all the issues that are going on.For now I do lobby racing ,off line racing ,liveries .Just taking in the best aspects of the game.When the Daily race combos are to my liking ,I'm all in :gtpflag:
 
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