Opinions on the Scion Tc and other cars.

[toyomatt84]

You could have saved a lot of typing by just noting that it's the same price as a Corvette Z06, but heavier, slower, and worse handling (as well as uglier, IMO, but that's a personal thing).

Have you even seen the race of the JDM's versus the Supercars, by Best Motoring? Your beloved Corvette came in last.

1. Porsche 911 Turbo 5:09.815
2. R34 GT-R V-SPEC II 5.10:517
3. EVO VII RS 5.10:952
4. NSX S-Zero 5:14.534
5. Ferrari 360 Modena 5:14.723
6. Corvette Z51 5:23.274 (I know it's not a Z06, but do you think it could make up almost 13 seconds?)

EDIT: Anyone notice how cheap a a new Skyline costs in Australia? It's like 24k. Yeah, that's pricey.....

 

[GT4_Rule]

I read that result somewhere....that competition was in a technical track, which isnt a great place for Corvette. Note how the 360 Modena came 4th. If even that car came in 4th, then you know that the track was more ricer biased. Mid-engine is produces the best handling yet it lost. Im surprised that you didnt see that. A better comparison would have been to compare each car's lap tims around Nurburgring.

Edit: O WTF!!! DA*NED HELL! IT MADE TRIPLE POSTS??? Im so sorry mods I didnt mean it!! Why did this happen

 

[toyomatt84]

Now, back on topic...

I think you might want to consider some newer used car options. Simply put, the moment a car leaves the dealership, it loses resale value. Maybe check the market for a used WRX, or better yet, a used R32 Golf. The VR6's in those little hatches are just amazing. Comfortable ride quality, tons of horsepower stock, loads of aftermarket possibilities, and just one sexy german car.

 

[toyomatt84]

I read that result somewhere....that competition was in a technical track, which isnt a great place for Corvette. Note how the 360 Modena came 4th. If even that car came in 4th, then you know that the track was more ricer biased. Mid-engine is produces the best handling yet it lost. Im surprised that you didnt see that. A better comparison would have been to compare each car's lap tims around Nurburgring.

Edit: O WTF!!! IT MADE TRIPLE POSTS??? Im so sorry mods I didnt mean it!!

Ricer biased??? All the cars were stock. There weren't any ricers there. And, since a Porsche won, I hardly would consider it a Japanese biased track, either. Comparibly speaking, the Corvette would have performed just as well on the Nurburgring, Laguna Seca, or any other track out there. It wasn't a course with nothing but continual turns, there were plenty of straights for that Corvette to do it's stuff.

EDIT: In fact, that Corvette didn't even make it past them on the start line, even though there was a straightaway after the start line. It couldn't even keep up.

 

[Jay]

A track being "ricer biased", thats a new one .

 

[GT4_Rule]

OK, I always thought ricers meant Japanese cars, turns out I misunderstood it. Or am I?

What I meant was that there was Japanese cars there, and you know their handling; its better than American cars. Also that Corvette was a C5. The Porsche won, but probably because of the better power-to-weight ratio. I know those cars were stock, but you know American cars don't like too many turns, so by choosing a track with lots of turns they unknowingly raised the Japanes cars chance to win. Its pretty obvious by seeing that the Modena lost. Why would such a race-inspired car lose to those Japanese cars? Because the circuit they chose did not allow Modena to bring out its strongest field to use.

 

[skip0110]

Have you even seen the race of the JDM's versus the Supercars, by Best Motoring? Your beloved Corvette came in last.

1. Porsche 911 Turbo 5:09.815
2. R34 GT-R V-SPEC II 5.10:517
3. EVO VII RS 5.10:952
4. NSX S-Zero 5:14.534
5. Ferrari 360 Modena 5:14.723
6. Corvette Z51 5:23.274 (I know it's not a Z06, but do you think it could make up almost 13 seconds?)

EDIT: Anyone notice how cheap a a new Skyline costs in Australia? It's like 24k. Yeah, that's pricey.....

Sure, whatever, they always run those on unbelieveably tight tracks that bias towards handling (note that the Evo 7 finishes 4 secs faster than the 360). Is it any accident that the top 3 finishers are AWD? Get some stats from a more unbiased track, with an actual straight...

EDIT: okay, replied to your post without reading the whole thread, but GT4_Rule is saying the same thing I am. and..

EDIT: In fact, that Corvette didn't even make it past them on the start line, even though there was a straightaway after the start line. It couldn't even keep up.

What it comes down to, is the driver can't launch a torquey RWD car properly. Not to mention, did they even turnthe trac. control off? There's lots of ways that they can bias these things, they are hardly scientific...

EDIT: one other thing, a Z06 has 505 hp, the Z51 they tested had 350, I would characterize that as a slight difference, wouldn't you?

 

[Jay]

I think the track they used for that battle was Sugo, which is not tight and hehe "ricer biased" .

 

[xcsti]

Tests are never equal, especially best motoring where alot of the drivers will dog a few laps to make the competition more interesting (not saying that that specifically happened with the vette but it could have). And also just because it occurred that way on one occasion does not mean that, under different conditions, the cars wouldn't place differently.Also driver familiarity with the course.

Basically I'm not saying the vette is better but that its not certain that it is worse.

 

[GT4_Rule]

I think the track they used for that battle was Sugo, which is not tight and hehe "ricer biased" .

Jeez, whats so funny about "ricer biased"?? I dont get it whats so funny

 

[skip0110]

Points well taken guys, I've looked back and realized that it looks like I am bashing the Skyline, which I'm not trying to, I respect the car, for the same reason I respect cars like the Vette and Viper; it is built for extreme durability and the block/transmission/suspension is able to handle much more than what it leaves the factory with (just like the Vette and Viper)....although I happen to agree with the quote that Ghost C had in his sig (it IS heavy for it's size, and it IS quite overburdened with electronics), it's still great, in its own way, on a different day the Vette might be faster, or it might be faster...

...no point in arguing this anymore, unless I actually get to drive them both

 

[Jay]

Jeez, whats so funny about "ricer biased"?? I dont get it whats so funny

Usual type of 'ricer' stereotype

So the tracks biased towards them

 

[GT4_Rule]

so I guess I was misunderstanding the term "ricer" after all. It refers to a tuned Japanese car?

anyways yes that track was biased toward those Japanes cars. Even Skip0110 says the same thing. Why does those top 3 cars all have AWD?

 

[Jay]

(it IS heavy for it's size),

Well they're not small cars really.

2005 Pontiac GTO wheelbase = 2788mm
R33 Skyline GTR wheelbase = 2720mm

so I guess I was misunderstanding the term "ricer" after all. It refers to a tuned Japanese car?

anyways yes that track was biased toward those Japanes cars. Even Skip0110 says the same thing. Why does those top 3 cars all have AWD?

Ricer refers more to cars that have "questionable modifications" not Japanese tuned cars.

Circuit Length: 2.336 miles/3.737 km, 11 turns
Circuit type: Permanent road course


This is the circuit, its like many other circuits it doesn't give great advantage to 4WD.

 

[GT4_Rule]

Oh great. A perfect circuit to explore how bad American cars do in tight corners. Thats why Modena lost, remember....? Its AWD biased, I tell you. If the Mid-engined Modena couldnt even beat the others, then of course Corvette will lose. Maybe the drivers. too.

Alright, so ricers refer to cars with questionnable mods. Well, I though (incorrectly) it refered to Japanese cars because theres the word rice in ricer. I was sooo wrong.

 

[Jay]

Oh great. A perfect circuit to explore how bad American cars do in tight corners. Thats why Modena lost, remember....? Its AWD biased, I tell you. If the Mid-engined Modena couldnt even beat the others, then of course Corvette will lose. Maybe the drivers. too.

The track was dry during the battle, besides launch at the start of the race the 4WD doesnt give a great advantage unless the corners are real tight, which dispite the way you think Sugo looks on map the corners are not real tight but normal as you would expect on any racing circuit, and those two straights are pretty long.

 

[GT4_Rule]

then why did the 360 Modena lose? I thought it (probably) had the best power-to-weight ratio?

 

[cobragt]

I needed more than a spring for my last wastegate. The plunger was cracked. I didnt find out what was wrong with the new one. I just sold the turbo and other parts I got to a friend of mine.

 

[Jay]

then why did the 360 Modena lose? I thought it (probably) had the best power-to-weight ratio?

I can't remember, I watched the video along time ago now, If you want to see sugo track for yourself here is a best motoring video where they test the Porsche 997 on Sugo

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3847609434882590870&q=sugo+best+motoring


I'm sorry to cobragt for assisting with the off topic posts.

I needed more than a spring for my last wastegate. The plunger was cracked. I didnt find out what was wrong with the new one. I just sold the turbo and other parts I got to a friend of mine.

Thats too bad must have been a crappy wastegate.

 

[Wolfe]

@CobraGT: Out of the cars you listed, I would recommend the GTI or WRX. I would recommend, however, that you keep your Lancer. You won't be getting much more from any of the other cars (except for the WRX), and you'll be spending so much money for so little difference.

Sure, whatever, they always run those on unbelieveably tight tracks that bias towards handling (note that the Evo 7 finishes 4 secs faster than the 360). Is it any accident that the top 3 finishers are AWD? Get some stats from a more unbiased track, with an actual straight...

What in the world is wrong with a track that's "biased towards handling?" That's the whole point of a track. If they wanted to know how fast the cars went in a straight line, they could have easily done a 6-way drag race and been done with it (actually, elsewhere in the DVD they did quarter-mile and top speed runs with some of the cars).

The truth is, every racecourse will be biased towards something or other. There's no getting around it.

EDIT: one other thing, a Z06 has 505 hp, the Z51 they tested had 350, I would characterize that as a slight difference, wouldn't you?

The C5 Z06 had 385hp until 2002, when it got bumped up to 405hp.

 

[Ghost C]

A. MotoRex isn't going out of business. Check their contacts (Yes, I did email them less than a month ago.)

Fact: MotoRex is out of business. Their lease has been up for months - The landlord has closed the gates and locked the doors, look it up. The owner is being held on $1,000,000 bail for various crimes.

B. MotoRex isn't the only company with Skyline's as an import. You can get them elsewhere's. In fact, most other places can actually get you them cheaper. Also, I've noticed people importing Skylines into Canada, and driving them into the states, then getting them legalized in their specific state. That's also incredibly cheap. I've seen fully modified R32's go for 10,000 CAD. That's impecibly cheap.

Fact: The only Skyline GT-R's which can legally be imported into the UNITED STATES, as ruled by the UNITED STATES Department Of Transportation are from the years 1996 to 1998, the R33.

Do keep in mind that all of this has happened just in the past week.

You quoted a blog. Enough said.

The original article came from MPH Magazine. Does it make it any less funny that the only link I could find containing all 10 cars was from someone's personal website? I'm sorry you took personal offense to it - Stop being such a fanboy.

No comment necessary

Oh goody! A site made by fanboys, it couldn't possibly be wrong!

Love the personal attacks, but since the quote really isn't based on any fact what so ever, it really doesn't bother me.

Personal attack? How on earth is saying that VTEC has all of the lag but none of the turbo a personal attack? Could you explain it to me?

Like PunkRock said, bad resources, I'm not sure about other cases but they are wrong here.

I've never found either of those sites to be off by more than a few pounds.

It's too bad it handles like a yacht aswell. In addition, as overrated as they may be, GT-R's didn't exactly come stripped out,

Handles like a yacht, eh? Sheesh, I better keep a close eye on my keys, I didn't know people were off driving my own personal car while I wasn't looking!

As for the rest of it, I still have power windows, power door locks, a stereo system, eight way power adjustable front seats - Please, stop me when I get to the stripped out part...

and they had considerably more stuff in them then any Cadillac ever has had, so I would say that was rather excusable (even if it was true)...

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Considerably more stuff? Such as what? Please, explain to me what a Skyline has that my car doesn't, I want to hear this.

 

[Threshold]

I would go for the GTI. The tC is a great value if you buy it without any of the options, but then it gets ridiculously expensive once you start adding stuff. IMO if you're gonna buy a tricked out one, you might as well go with a Honda 2006 Civic Si. Can't go wrong with a 200HP 2.0L NA engine.

 

[Jay]

I've never found either of those sites to be off by more than a few pounds.

Well, this must be first time then. Also considering both of those sites got the car name wrong, I'm not suprised they got the weight wrong (looks like they copied each other almost directly).

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Considerably more stuff? Such as what? Please, explain to me what a Skyline has that my car doesn't, I want to hear this.

He stated later he was refering to mechanical, 4WD, 4WS etc.

 

[Wolfe]

The original article came from MPH Magazine. Does it make it any less funny that the only link I could find containing all 10 cars was from someone's personal website? I'm sorry you took personal offense to it - Stop being such a fanboy.

Hahahaha, that is funny, because MPH Magazine is trash.

Oh goody! A site made by fanboys, it couldn't possibly be wrong!

Fanboys will know more about a car than non-fans will. Why lie about a car's weight, anyway? It's how the car performs that matters.

1990 GT-R: 3153 lb
1995 GT-R: 3373 lb
1998 GT-R: 3395 lb

http://www.carfolio.com/

I've never found either of those sites to be off by more than a few pounds.

Supercars.net is wrong all the time, but RSportscars is usually pretty good...

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Considerably more stuff? Such as what? Please, explain to me what a Skyline has that my car doesn't, I want to hear this.

If you would have actually read through the thread, you would have found this...

I'm talking mechanical things, such as 4-wheel steering, 4WD, etc. All of which weigh more than any FWD car (and the more recent GT-R's since the R32 all had it). For example, the 3000GT had similar mechanical equipment to the Skyline, and even barring stuff the Skyline couldn't get (like the folding hard top), the 3000GT still weighed around 400-500 lbs. more than the Skyline ever did in VR4 form. Even Nissan's own Fairlady Z Z32 weighed more than the GT-R, and it was only 2WD (about as fast though, it must be said). I'm saying that the mechanical stuff weighs far more than any luxury items do, and the Skyline had plenty of the first and a substancial amount of the second, making the Skyline a very light car indeed.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Skylines may have a massive fan base but the numbers dont lie.

Nurburgring lap times..
quarter mile times
track times

They are a wonderful piece of machinary and it takes very good cars to beat them.

 

[Ghost C]

Hahahaha, that is funny, because MPH Magazine is trash.

Whatever your opinion is, the article was still amusing. I think people who own the other 9 cars were less offended by it than the fanboys of the Skyline are.

Fanboys will know more about a car than non-fans will. Why lie about a car's weight, anyway? It's how the car performs that matters.

1990 GT-R: 3153 lb
1995 GT-R: 3373 lb
1998 GT-R: 3395 lb

http://www.carfolio.com/

So nothing for the R34 GT-R or GT-R Nur? Herein lies the problem when you're looking up the weight of obscure vehicles - Nobody has it and if they do it's probably wrong. Also, fanboys are usually wrong.

If you would have actually read through the thread, you would have found this...

It all goes back to the quote originally found in my sig...

"The GT-R wouldn't need twin-turbos, all-wheel drive, four-wheel steering, and big intercoolers if it wasn't a heavy-ass piece of pork to begin with. And the feds ain't got nothing to do with it: Nissan never sent us the GT-R because out of the 12 people in America who'd actually spend 911 Turbo money on an outdated-looking Japanese coupe, six are in jail at any given time."

But as far as mechanical things weighing more than luxury items, I beg to differ. The eight way power adjustable seats in my car weigh nearly 100lbs, each. I could swap in a 4WD system with a 5 speed manual and it would weigh less than what my automatic transmission weighs. There's simply no way to make a GT-R look better - They weigh alot, get over it. That's why they have tons of horsepower and 4WD.

 

[YSSMAN]

Have you even seen the race of the JDM's versus the Supercars, by Best Motoring? Your beloved Corvette came in last.

1. Porsche 911 Turbo 5:09.815
2. R34 GT-R V-SPEC II 5.10:517
3. EVO VII RS 5.10:952
4. NSX S-Zero 5:14.534
5. Ferrari 360 Modena 5:14.723
6. Corvette Z51 5:23.274 (I know it's not a Z06, but do you think it could make up almost 13 seconds?)

EDIT: Anyone notice how cheap a a new Skyline costs in Australia? It's like 24k. Yeah, that's pricey.....

I suggest the next time you watch the video, you pay attention to the facts:
1) Its a C5 Z51, with "only" 350HP
2) The C5 Z51 was quick, but it was limited by low power/weight ratio when compared to the Porsche (wich had more than 400HP if I might add) and others.
3) If they would have used the 01+ Z06 with the 405HP LS6, I belive the tables would have been turned. Of course, we don't have any solid proof, as they never tested all of them together, but I would bet my trinkgeld on it...
4) Move up to today's C6 Corvette, even in Z51 form, the race would have been much, much closer... With a Z06, there is no question who the winner would have been...

EDIT: Sorry, but as a diehard Corvette fan, I couldnt let that go...

 

[Wolfe]

Whatever your opinion is, the article was still amusing. I think people who own the other 9 cars were less offended by it than the fanboys of the Skyline are.

No no no, I agree -- the article is very amusing...

But that doesn't change the fact that MPH Magazine is terrible.

So nothing for the R34 GT-R or GT-R Nur? Herein lies the problem when you're looking up the weight of obscure vehicles - Nobody has it and if they do it's probably wrong. Also, fanboys are usually wrong.

Uh, I listed the weights for all three "modern" GT-Rs...R32, R33, and R34.

I won't dispute the claim that fanboys are usually wrong, but we're talking about curb weight here, not a laptime. There's nothing to be gained in fudging the curb weight by a couple hundred pounds. Anyone who was introduced to the Skyline GT-R by Initial D will think it's a titanic, earth-shatteringly heavy car anyway...even if they like it.

There's simply no way to make a GT-R look better - They weigh alot, get over it. That's why they have tons of horsepower and 4WD.

Wha? This isn't about defending the GT-R's pride, this is about fact versus fiction, and determining which curb-weight figures for the Skyline GT-Rs are correct.

Also, since when is "280" horsepower -- or more accurately, 330-ish -- "tons," as you put it? I guess you need to pull out the thesaurus to describe the horsepower of cars like the McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, or Bugatti Veyron...

I suggest the next time you watch the video, you pay attention to the facts:
1) Its a C5 Z51, with "only" 350HP
2) The C5 Z51 was quick, but it was limited by low power/weight ratio when compared to the Porsche (wich had more than 400HP if I might add) and others.
3) If they would have used the 01+ Z06 with the 405HP LS6, I belive the tables would have been turned. Of course, we don't have any solid proof, as they never tested all of them together, but I would bet my trinkgeld on it...
4) Move up to today's C6 Corvette, even in Z51 form, the race would have been much, much closer... With a Z06, there is no question who the winner would have been...

EDIT: Sorry, but as a diehard Corvette fan, I couldnt let that go...

I doubt the C5 Z06 would have fared a whole lot better, considering the 360's position...the C6 Z06 would be gone, but not the C5 Z06...

 

[Ghost C]

No no no, I agree -- the article is very amusing...

But that doesn't change the fact that MPH Magazine is terrible.

Could very well be, I don't read it so I wouldn't know.

Uh, I listed the weights for all three "modern" GT-Rs...R32, R33, and R34.

I've been under the impression that the R34 wasn't made until 99. I could very well be wrong as I don't very well care either way. ;/

I won't dispute the claim that fanboys are usually wrong, but we're talking about curb weight here, not a laptime. There's nothing to be gained in fudging the curb weight by a couple hundred pounds. Anyone who was introduced to the Skyline GT-R by Initial D will think it's a titanic, earth-shatteringly heavy car anyway...even if they like it.

Wha? This isn't about defending the GT-R's pride, this is about fact versus fiction, and determining which curb-weight figures for the Skyline GT-Rs are correct.

So how is one source more credible than the other on this issue? I don't see anyone listing sources for where they obtained their information on the weights so they could all be wrong for all I know. On one hand we have a pair of websites that have been listed under "suck" by a couple people, and on the other we have websites run by fanboys - I personally think they're both wrong.

Also, since when is "280" horsepower -- or more accurately, 330-ish -- "tons," as you put it? I guess you need to pull out the thesaurus to describe the horsepower of cars like the McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, or Bugatti Veyron...

It's 280 and until I see a video of more than five GT-R's that are 100% proven to be 100% stock putting down whp numbers that would mean 330bhp on the same dyno on the same day, it's 280. And nearly 300hp is still tons, just because there are supercars that have more doesn't mean it's not still alot...

 

[Wolfe]

So how is one source more credible than the other on this issue? I don't see anyone listing sources for where they obtained their information on the weights so they could all be wrong for all I know. On one hand we have a pair of websites that have been listed under "suck" by a couple people, and on the other we have websites run by fanboys - I personally think they're both wrong.

I listed my source, which was neither a fanboy site, nor a site "listed under 'suck.'"

It's 280 and until I see a video of more than five GT-R's that are 100% proven to be 100% stock putting down whp numbers that would mean 330bhp on the same dyno on the same day, it's 280. And nearly 300hp is still tons, just because there are supercars that have more doesn't mean it's not still alot...

Okay, fine, so the heavy, overrated, ugly Japanese coupe you hate so much outaccelerates the 400hp Cadillac CTS-V with a mere 280hp.

280hp is healthy, but definitely not "tons." There are many cars that can be had with 300+hp, some of them family-oriented.