other GT4 frustration... a "close" race?

[Greyout]

there are many posts and threads that discuss the efforts made to create a close, competitive race.

Here is a problem I have: many of the races are just 2 or 3 laps long. When going from a rolling start, the field is widely spread... and only gets wider when the green flag drops. If you haven't noticed, not all the cars accelerate at the same time. There is an invisible line before the starting line that causes you to go full throttle when you cross it.

Given that most of these short races don't have qualifying available (and when qualifying takes up 2/3rds as much time as the actual race, NASCAR style, its not a very appealing thought to include it anyway)... you are not racing, so much as playing catch up. When you get control of your car, you have what sometimes appears to be a 1/4 mile handicap, not to mention a 20 or 30 mph deficit on the leader. If there were 20 laps to go, and there were another 20 cars between you and the leader, then it would make sense. But to have a "close" race with the leader in this situation, in a 3 lap race, you have to have a lap time about 2 or 3 seconds faster per lap, and THATS assuming that you get past the 4 other competitors with out missing a beat.

In all the racing I have ever followed, 2 or 3 seconds per lap makes the difference between a podium finnish and a back marker... yet in GT4, this gap is pretty much required in order to gain ground fast enough to pass the leader. If it is a true close battle, with fractions of a second in lap time between you and the 1st place guy, you will never get any where near him.

I am having this problem in the Clubman cup with my moderately modified, naturally aspirated CRX. If I push the car, my lap times are ever so slightly quicker then the MR2 that generaly wins. However, it is impossible for me to catch him in 3 laps, even IF I manage to slide by any other cars that I come upon.

 

[Ragnar1211]

I agree. The rolling start option is a mystery to me. It encourages us to use an over-kill type car to win rather than raw driving skill.

I find the 10 lap races much more competitive and fun, at least you have time to catch up without using a super car.

 

[Greyout]

I understand the reason behind the short races: its a console game, and generally console gamers have less attention span... and also, it keeps the tiny 6 car field from getting too far spread out.

Perhaps these will change with the PS3 - we've seen videos of larger fields, and a full grid will likely cause the need for a longer race.

I wish that PD had included a "race length" slider bar in the options, so you could make simulation races longer.

 

[Cosmic]

there are many posts and threads that discuss the efforts made to create a close, competitive race.

Here is a problem I have: many of the races are just 2 or 3 laps long. When going from a rolling start, the field is widely spread... and only gets wider when the green flag drops. If you haven't noticed, not all the cars accelerate at the same time. There is an invisible line before the starting line that causes you to go full throttle when you cross it.

Given that most of these short races don't have qualifying available (and when qualifying takes up 2/3rds as much time as the actual race, NASCAR style, its not a very appealing thought to include it anyway)... you are not racing, so much as playing catch up. When you get control of your car, you have what sometimes appears to be a 1/4 mile handicap, not to mention a 20 or 30 mph deficit on the leader. If there were 20 laps to go, and there were another 20 cars between you and the leader, then it would make sense. But to have a "close" race with the leader in this situation, in a 3 lap race, you have to have a lap time about 2 or 3 seconds faster per lap, and THATS assuming that you get past the 4 other competitors with out missing a beat.

In all the racing I have ever followed, 2 or 3 seconds per lap makes the difference between a podium finnish and a back marker... yet in GT4, this gap is pretty much required in order to gain ground fast enough to pass the leader. If it is a true close battle, with fractions of a second in lap time between you and the 1st place guy, you will never get any where near him.

I am having this problem in the Clubman cup with my moderately modified, naturally aspirated CRX. If I push the car, my lap times are ever so slightly quicker then the MR2 that generaly wins. However, it is impossible for me to catch him in 3 laps, even IF I manage to slide by any other cars that I come upon.

Yes, I agree.
I was doing a 89 a-spec ( easy huh? ) race in the sunday cup and yes (it's really a shame but..) I still couldn't catch up because the reason you explained in your post. It is really annoying.

 

[jdw]

there are many posts and threads that discuss the efforts made to create a close, competitive race.

I am having this problem in the Clubman cup with my moderately modified, naturally aspirated CRX. If I push the car, my lap times are ever so slightly quicker then the MR2 that generaly wins. However, it is impossible for me to catch him in 3 laps, even IF I manage to slide by any other cars that I come upon.

The Rolling starts for certain races are a pain. I don't think you'll find many people that disagree, but... that's just the way it is

It's especially painful on certain courses (Tsukuba and anywhere on Motegi)

I suppose the tradeoff is having a lot of variety to the races (particularly the mfg races) without turning people off with long races in slow cars.


The key factor for any of these short races is to get to the front ASAP, before the computer's tires warm up.

Funny thing is... in a lot of cases, when you're looking for competitive races you'll find that it's BETTER to have rolling starts than grid starts. I'm not kidding.

A key factor in high point races is lineup order. If you need a particularly dangerous car in the lineup to get points, make sure it's buried. That dangerous car will take longer to get the lead off of a rolling start than a grid start because on a grid it can just accelerate to the lead immediately. On a rolling start, it has to figure out a way to get past all the slow cars in front of it. And the computer isn't all that good at passing. The best example of this is probably Apricot Hill vs. something like Hong Kong or Paris where there's almost no passing.

As for Clubman. The most dangerous cars are the 111R, the MR2. The Speedster is kind of annoying too. It's a good idea to find a lineup where they're buried.

I'd also recommend an Elise over a CRX

 

[Zardoz]

There are many posts and threads that discuss the efforts made to create a close, competitive race...

I'll say. I wonder if it would be useful to have a separate forum devoted entirely to specific setups for good races? We could post the event, the car used, how it was set up, and the AI competition you should patiently wait to come up as you exited and re-entered.

 

[oxide]

The time difference between the lead car crossing the start line and you in 6th crossing the line is usually between 5 and 6 seconds, and definitely can be the difference between winning and losing the race in a relatively evenly matched pack of cars.
However, my answer to this is to run the race first, to see if you get blown away by any of the AI cars. If you find you are getting blown away, take a trip to the tune-shop, and grab yourself some nitrous, that certainly evens things up, and gives you the chance to challenge for the lead quite a bit sooner.

 

[wkeil]

Rolling starts are used in Japan GT racing.

 

[skicrush]

Man, just got done using a ZR-1 in the vette series, and I've been using a stock 69 camaro (350) in the camaro race, and they are almost all rolling starts. First off, I'm bugged because they are INFAMOUS drag cars, and starting from a rolling start just seems obscene. But the other thing that's been bothering me is the same issue here--you're playing catch up the whole race. They were like 13 point races, and I was only winning by a couple seconds at best. The camaro race was only 30-40 points, and there was NO WAY I was gonna make up the 9 second deficit in Seoul in 3 laps. I mean, it's like a low (or NO) point mission! Only you determine when you're competitive enough to make up the slack.

 

[Uncle Harry]

The simple answer to this problem is fitting Nos to an otherwise stock car.
Use the Nos only to get to 2nd place as quickly as possible and then you can use your better driving skills to take the win.
It is hard to pick when you will need to use Nos as the AI drive better at some tracks than others. (AI bad at Monaco one example).

 

[Greyout]

A little example:

clubman event at Motegi east short course. I am in my CRX. The lead car is a MR2.

The cars are spaced out a pretty big distance for the rolling start. As the cars pass the starting line, they begin to accelerate a few seconds before the starting line. The MR2 goes full power about 5 or 6 seconds before I can, in 6th place.

When the MR2 passes the starting line, the race timer starts. I pass the start line 5.8 seconds behind the leader. I estimate he has about a 15mph advantage on me all the way down the front straightaway. We pass the 1st split time, and at that point he has a 6.9 second lead.

From there, I have to make up 7 seconds in less then 3 laps.

My moderately modified CRX is slightly faster then the MR2, and yet I never even saw the MR2 the entire race. (More then a dot on the horizon)

 

[z06fun]

Seems all they would have had to do was allow all cars to go to full throttle at the same point in time rather than at the same point on the track. The lead car would still have an advantage but it would be much less that with the current setup. They also could have just used standing starts for all races under like 5 laps or something.

 

[Biochemist]

I did start a thread a while ago for people to share experiences of close racing with the AI but it didn't seem to take off. It was titled 'close racing with AI' unimaginative but to the point.

The idea of close racing was really for longer races as like you say shorter ones are more about catch up and so require a car that you can just about catch up to 1st by the end. But only Just to be fun. on the other extreme i used the S2000 Gt1 from the tuner village to race the suzuka 9hrs and only won by a number of seconds (think it was less than 10) anyhow I 'm pretty sure I put that in the other thread.

Search for it and add yours in. I've got a few more since but didn't update because of lack of interest. I think this makes GT4 so much fun, may aswell do timetrials if its not a close race. Couldn't believe the thread got so few hits.

There are also individual write-ups etc that cover close races, like the GT300 vs GT500 write up.

 

[Zardoz]

I did start a thread a while ago for people to share experiences of close racing with the AI but it didn't seem to take off...

It would have to be a sticky, or a separate forum, perhaps. The need is there, though, and if people didn't have to search for it, it could very well take off, I would think.

 

[jdw]

A little example:


When the MR2 passes the starting line, the race timer starts. We pass the 1st split time, and at that point he has a 6.9 second lead.

My moderately modified CRX is slightly faster then the MR2, and yet I never even saw the MR2 the entire race. (More then a dot on the horizon)

Are you sure your CRX is faster? That MR2 is just over 300hp.
Are you gaining time at each split?

I know that split time fairly well... it's past my cutoff point for that track. For me, anything over 5.5-6 seconds is too hard to make up.

BTW: The MR2 is one of the most dangerous cars for that race. Having it in the pole is just that much worse.

 

[Bonedwarf]

It's ironic. I swore off using nitrous. However, there was one race series in the game (I forget which series now) which always put this particular car in that utterly smoked the field. Getting second was easy. First just checked out. After two attempts, I quit, and fitted nitrous...

And had the best damn race I've EVER had in GT. It was a 5 lapper... I nitroused up to the lead, but knew I'd need it to stay ahead. (Couldn't overtake this car without it.) so had to limit my usage of it. This car was GLUED to my rear. Slightest mistake, he'd go through, I'd nitrous back up to him, pass him... I won the race, but the 5 laps felt like 25, it was so intense.

 

[Moloch_horridus]

You just need to know those cars that cannot be beaten when they start from pole. It's to be expected that you can't always win - if you could it would not be competitive.

You can enter a race have a look at the lineup and exit without clicking over a new day or effecting your win/loss ratio (at least on PAL version) - the only problem is the load time.