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Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by mister dog, May 6, 2015.
Thank Jack Spade.
PS4 version; Had the game a few days now. Not had much time to get on it properly yet. But my first experience was free practice at Le Mans in a Mercedes GT3. Oh my god, 4 hours later and i was still messing around with set ups. Simply amazing. I cant pin point it, but it has an extra edge for realism over anything gran turismo could ever provide. I must admit, when i saw dirt had built up all over the back of my car after not pitting for a while, i nearly fainted. Its this attention to detail ive looked for my whole gaming life!
As you move through the game you'll find a lot of little details like that.
300 hours impression. I'm still amazed at this game and the fun I'm having. 13 seasons in career and I still have so many to go. By the time I get done with all the classes I can go back to the beginning and it will feel like it's the 1st time.
Best racing game I've ever played!
I have the ps4 version,have had it since it was released in the UK, and it is the best racing game I have ever played.It feels better than essetto,v cars etc,and makes things like gt6 look lame,and I really loved the gt series.I must admit first impressions (the first hr) of playing, it didn't click straight away,had to change controller setup analogue sticks for steering,breaking and r1 l1 for gears then ffb etc sound,amazing.
Let me guess... you own a G27 or other low torque wheel? Cause indeed the steering rack based FFB in the game with linear tyre forces (Fxyz and Mz) isn't suited for that, but it's perfect for the higher torque wheels.
Personally I just use the default settings and I am completely happy with it, but that's with a CSWv2. The only dislike I have are that the tyres are too soft, so I always jack up tyre pressures by at least 0.2 bar all-around every time (for radial tyres at least). This for me improves road surface feedback as well as removes any death wiggles and tank slappers. This because it increases sidewall strength, which acts like a rubberband. If that rubberband gets tensioned to far it tends to snap back and throw the weight back and forth to the tyre on the opposite side.
So the best thing to do is have a rigid tyre that still is able to reduce initial bump impacts but transfers most through to springs and shocks.
Some cars have suspension settings that try to compensate tyres that have weak sidewalls. So the too stiff suspension (often stiff dampers) can cause a reduction in grip when just increasing tyre pressure a bit, because the tyre can't follow the contours of the road well.
The stiffer the tyre is though, the more critical the right suspension settings become. So it's always a balancing act between tyre pressures, damper rates and spring rates to get the most grip on a certain track. One thing is for certain and that is that you don't want any sudden weight transfer to end your race too early.
An example from real life:
0:15 - BMW (black): low tyre pressure. Results in no road feedback in the wheel, making it hard to judge entry speed. He's going to fast and the honking tyre noise comes from the sidewalls. The low tyre walls and the car pushing towards the outside corner causes the sidewalls to 'buckle'. Meaning he is driving on his sidewalls, which aren't meant for grip and the noise should be a warning. He should have let off on the throttle pedal, instead he gets tank slapper as the sidewalls spring the weight back to center (as I said... they are like rubber bands). It looks like the grass and loss of grip is the cause, but the loss of grip only causes the tyres to be relieved of pressure and they pop back into shape.
0:45 - Ford: Too high front tyre pressure for the camber angle used, plus too high entry speed. I think this result is obvious. Too much camber gives a reduced contact patch during cornering, too high pressure for the angle further reduces the patch size. If your entry is too fast than all is lost. Only way he could have recovered is if he disengaged the clutch so the car is free rolling and nipping the brake pedal to reduce speed. This because with free rolling you free up the remaining tyre performance that was used up by the engine torque on the front wheels, than you can use that little freed up performance to nibble away some speed with the brake.
In this case the driver just fully braked as he got scared and off he went.
1:10 - Mazda MX5: Setup is too oversteer centric. The rear of the car probably has a too stiff ARB that prevents roll and independent working of the rear suspension. Which means that he simply used traction at the rear.
1:25 - BMW (grey): Again low tyre pressure at the front, but higher than the black BMW from earlier. If you look closely the car doesn't loose control as he hits the grass, but it takes a while again. Just enough time for the tyre to spring back. You can even see the front left tyre bump and compress the suspension as it happens. Also the guy might be helped with a stronger front ARB.
1:40 - Monster Seat Leon: Can't see what happens here, so won't judge.
2:00 - Nissan Skyline R34: This car is setup well and responds well. The driver just loses it on the grass when he hits a bump, which simply throws the weight of this heavy car around a bit too much, especially since he keeps using full throttle like an idiot.
2:20 - Subaru? (blue): The owner installed a lower kit without new dampers. This causes the extreme wobble noticible as he comes to a halt. He didn't use the wrong tyre pressures, but he just overcooked it. As he hit the grass the dampers couldn't dampen the impact and well... wibble wobble.
2:50 - TVR: Just overcooks it... nuff said. It is interesting to see how much grip front tyres have but that the rear tyres refuse to follow at this speed. As Jacky Stewart once said, you need to treat a car like a horse. Basically the smoother you are with it and the more you simply ease a car into a corner, the better it will respond. If you suddenly have to corner the car isn't prepared to react and you get what happens to this guy.
3:20 - Audi: Why can't the expensive Audi follow the Citroen Saxo? Too much rear camber if you look closely. The Saxo has zero or near zero camber. Also the Audi has a slightly higher entry speed (5-10 kph higher) which worsens his situation. He also seems to be an unexperienced driver, because in the way he corrects the car it shows that he's in shock and just correcting the car on feel of where the weight transfers to in the car. Hence you see him steer left and right.
3:40 - Opel Kadett C (red): This is properly a case of the wrong rake on the car. The car has an equal front and rear right height, which has zero degree rake (or height difference). Due to the fact that a drift car hangs a lot in its rear suspension, and that this suspension compresses, the car's rake changes to a rearward rake. Which also means all weight hangs in the rear suspension instead of having that ideal 50/50 distribution. The front just loses momentum due to lack of weight moving it along, and the rear rotates around it. If the owner lowers the front a bit he can probably make that angle work with that speed and length.
3:55 - BMW stationwagon: No clue what the heck happened here, but the driver in the Silvia was frightened for sure. Nice car control from the Silvia with a nice 360.
4:12 - Nissan (grey): Driver drift error.
4:40 - BMW: Nibbled the grass while trying to drift. Ooops!
4:55 - Nissan Silvia: Nibble nibble
5:05 - Nissan: Overcooked it.
till 6:30 - drift cars: Driver errors causing a dirty track in the end with a double spin-out as a result.
6:40 - Mini: Just overcooked it.
6:50 - BMW (grey purple rim): Too low tyre pressure causes the driver to think he has more grip. He goes into a corner with too much speed and ends up in a drift during a non-drift event. Later this will cause another bigger issue as talked about earlier.
7:10 - Ford: This guy has tyres with a high sidewall, but with low tyre pressure. He doesn't hang in his suspension as you'll see that the suspension doesn't decompress much on corner exit (look at the rim-fender gaps). Again like the BMW guy he still thinks he has enough grip, but in fact his sidewall has buckled already and he is running over the tyre's limit. The result is obvious.
7:22 - BMW (grey puple rim again): This guy is the local hero it seems. Throws the car into the corner, but as you'll see at exit the car wobbles on the tyres. This death wobble can sometimes cause a spin-out or in certain situations it can give you a tank slapper. In the end, this is not a stable car for driving at the limit or do consecutive drifts with.
7:50 - Guessing a red Nissan: Death wobbly, low tyre pressures. Nicely setup car otherwise.
8:10 - Same car: The end... higher entry speed, the full weight is basically on one tyre and bye bye. He simply overcooked it.
End - White MX5 and Silver Scoobie: Both have a little too low tyre pressure. They hang fully into their tyres and they are nice and stable rides looking at how they react through the corner. However, they overestimate the tyre performance and again think that these low tyre pressure are creating more grip. As a result they corner too fast. The MX5 could have made it by reducing throttle, but the scoobie goes in far too hot and he even has a tank slapper as a parting gift.
Ah sorry, I like to analyze crashes like these. It is for me a chance to learn about car setup and especially on how I can identify errors in my car's setup in real life or in-game.
In real life i've only been experimenting with tyre pressures. My car original came with old type Michelin Pilot Sport in 1999, but I now (anno 2015) only have Michelin Energy Savers under it. I found that the sidewalls were too soft and with the recommended tyre pressure of 2.2 bar (normal load) and 2.4 bar (full load) all-around the bead of the tyre would part from the rim during cornering, especially round-a-bouts.
These days I run 2.6 bar normal and 2.8 bar at full-load. I put in 2.8 bar by default now because of transporting a kid and all the other stuff now. So the car is loaded more than normal (which is 1 driver + 1 passenger max). So it's quite a difference from the pressures my manufacturer gave 15 years ago. Tyres have evolved, but those recommendations were only made at that moment for the manufacturer's OEM tyre.
In the end with all this jibba jabba (always wanted to say that once) I just wanted to say that both in game and in real life tyre pressures matter, and that these settings can be more than just a simple increase or decrease of grip. It effects weight transfer, communication through the wheel and it even can effect you as a driver into thinking you've got more grip than you actually have.
So experiment a little with tyre pressures and don't be too afraid to try some settings in real life, especially in dry conditions. Just be sure to drive safe in real life and don't look for the limits of your car in the same way those drivers in the youtube video did. Trees and ditches are closer to the public roads than those tyre walls after all.
Yeah, same. All I did with my settings were changing the Scoop Reduction from 0.15 to 0.30, FFB from 75 to 100, and Tire Force from 100 to 80. Otherwise the settings are untouched and they feel good. I use a T300.
What platform are you on? And wow, 300 hours! I'm at 21 hours.
Oh yeah, I set the FFB strength to 100 as well. Forgot to mention that. I leave the rest of the CSWv2 profile alone, which doesn't use scoop and so on plus it has tyre force at 100.
I never got a chance to try a T300 or TX though, so I don't know how that compares to my CSWv2. I know my T500 feels like a handsaw for wood. The cogging in it is that course by comparison, and it has more mechanical drag as well.
Oh, and I am on PC of course since 3.5 years ago.
With the T300 if I set both Tire Force and FFB at 100, it's too strong. I can use it like that, but it makes it hard to make corrections or catch slides.
Congratulations! Curious to know what hardware you are playing the game on and using to play it, what bugs and other hurdles you've encountered along the way and how you dealt with them.
Actually that means that your tyres are probably too deflated. Which gives you a too big contact patch and prevents you from steering, due to the turning resistance of the tyre.
I hear you thinking... reducing the contact patch size reduces the overal grip. Yes and no.
Yes, it reduces the continues contact patch grip. No, as a properly inflated lets a tyre work properly by letting it cool its tread along the straights and generating maximum grip as camber angles roll to zero degrees during max cornering.
So increasing a tyre's tyre pressure to a proper level will...
- Ease steering for the driver
- Let camber work properly
- Let the contact patch across the cooled (during driving on straights) areas of the tyre tread, which creates better grip with less wear.
- Improves tyre temperatures
- Reduces wear
- Reduces fuel usage
- Increases top speed due to less rolling resistance on straights.
...and so on.
So please try the 100/100 setup again of the FFB sliders, and than try to fiddle with your favorite car's setup. Preferably one with radial tyres and no downforce. Radial tyres are easy to work with and downforce can make the wheel feel heavy still during cornering except in slow corners, so a car without downforce is easier to get a sense with of what the changed do to the car. In other words you get a better idea of how setup changes react in pCARS.
Also feel free to test this tyre pressure effect on steering weight thing with your own real vehicle in front of your house. Lower the front tyre pressures by 0.5 bar under normal OEM recommendation, than drive a block. Than for good measure try an increase of 0.5 bar above OEM tyre pressures. I am sure you will be able to relate this real life experiment back to pCARS afterwards.
As always, drive safely when experimenting. Too low or too high pressures can cause dangerous issues, so drive slowly and carefully.
Thanks, I'll give that a try.
updated my last post with a real life test for you.
I play on the PC version with a 32" Sony TV and a G27 and I use the PCars Profiler on a 2nd screen.
I tried Jack Spades FFB files, but removed them as I feel the standard FFB feels best for me.
I've spent almost all my time on the career mode. (Only done 7 online races so far)
The 1st bug I encountered was the closed garages at Zolder but that was fixed pretty quickly.
I also encountered the AI starting races on rain tyres when it only started raining later in the race, so I did the same and beat them!
I've had no issues with the AI, but I treat them as if they were human players, give them space and they race pretty well. I play with them between 80 - 100 depending on my mood.
I play all my races on 100% length, I've set damage to performance impacting and I set flags and penalties off for endurance races.
I drive all the cars stock so I've not encountered any tuning issues, and I don't use any assists.
I just love how the different cars feel so different that I have to spend time getting good with a car in practice before racing it.
I guess I've been lucky to not experience all the issues I see others reporting.
I found that 1.4 improved this greatly (CSR here, which is similar to a G27). Before i had to jerk around with said F,x,y,z and Mz sliders in order to get a better overall feel, as i didn't feel the bumps or curbs, wheel was too heavy or too light, and there wasn't enough feedback from the back of the car. But with the few cars i tried after 1.4, i can now leave them on default FFB settings and it feels perfect.
ps. Read your tyre pressure piece, does this only work with newer higher grade road tyres? I remember the garage having blown up the tyres of my old volvo way too much (2.5 bar or something), and i immediatly went to a tank station to lower the pressures as it just felt wrong.
Yeah, there have been improvements made on the wheel profiles. Also Fanatec has improved their drivers v219 and at least a new firmware for the CSWv2.
You can find the new driver linked in at least the CSWv2 base downloads section.
It depends on the tyres. You have comfort tyres which offer a softer ride and more sportive tyres that have a stiffer ride. Plus there is a load-index for the tyres of course and I just think that my tyres are alittle too low on the load-index. Especially for my driving style that is more sport than comfort, which pushes the tyres harder.
You can often see by the tyre shape if it is underinflated. The weight of the car causes the sidewalls to bulge at the contact patch. Of course a tyre should be depressed a small bit by the weight, especially on engine side, but it should not cause an excessive and plainly visible bulging.
Overinflation is hard to see. The best way to test this for a family car on a public road is by measuring stopping distance with hot tyres. Get an empty road and take a sign, tree or lamppost as a reference braking point. Than look how far you've ended up. If the braking distance becomes longer you've overinflated the tyre.
Otherwise you'd have to look at other areas where you might start to limit the tyres' capabilities. Fast cornering causing more understeer with overinflation, losing grip (spinning up the tyres) when accelerating hard from standstill.
Basically overinflation means a drastic reduction in grip.
Always keep in mind that between cold and hot temperatures you always have a maximum of 0.3 BAR or 5 PSI difference.
So yeah, different tyres... different quirks. The tyre pressure sticker or info in the manual is a guideline for other tyres than what the car rolled out of the factory with. Also I have to note that tyres with the same name can evolve over time, so don't expect a 2015 made tyre perform the same as one in 2000. Manufacturers keep evolving tyres for better performance and road safety after all.
It's just from my opinion and experience that whatever is in the manual isn't holy, but for the first 5 years it often is as the same factory tyre might still be made as a replacement tyre.
Also on why you had extra pressure in your tyres. Garages use high pressure to seat new tyres, and they could have forgotten to deflate the tyres. Or they use a higher pressure as standard practice. My own garage uses 2.2 bar by default for example, but the garage my neighbour works at uses 2.4 bar by default, as cold pressures that is. So one uses the average normal load pressures (a lot of cars I've seen use around 2.2 bar normal load) and the other uses the full load pressures.
Now since you've driven a bit to a tank station the tyres will have warmed up slightly and have raised in pressure a bit by 0.1 bar. So hence why you might think the tyres were overinflated. I don't know what your full load figures are for the car, but always keep a 0.3 bar range of increased pressure in mind on top of due to heating up.
So if you have driven a bit and inflate your tyres at a tank station always inflate to hot pressures. So if 2.4 bar is for full load than inflate to 2.7 bar at the tank station. Or if you drive with a normal load and need 2.2 bar cold, inflate to 2.5 bar at the tank station.
You can further tune tyre pressures, but you need a tyre pyrometer with a needle to stick into the tyre and measure its temperature on three places along the tread. Plus you need a pressure guage.
In other words... just do like a race team would. Also you could use a tread depth gauge to see how the tyre wears as you try different pressures for a fixed duration of time.
Actually I might think of doing this myself and it might be a good learning experience for all us adult sim racers with a car. Just starting with one thing to measure and log will already give us a better understanding of our tyres and the vehicle that uses them.
If i remember right for my old 440 the correct pressure was 2.2 at the front and a bit less at the back. When i got it back from the garage they weren't new tyres, i guess it was just standard practice with them to over inflate. but with the 2.5(6) they used i remember the ride being a lot more bumpy and i felt more vibrations (up to the point i thought there was something wrong), it just didn't feel right and i had the impression there was less grip in corners.
What can I say.........other than thank you for this explanation waaaaaaaaw ,if I only understood something
Having worked for Bridgestone for 10 years, increasing tire pressure on your road car has to be the dumbest thing I've heard of. You are totally correct in your thoughts,hopefully you don't hit any wet weather as your traction will be greatly decreased. Do not increase tire pressure,could end up in disaster.
From what I can find the Volvo 440 used a 2.1 bar front and 1.9 bar rear pressure, with 2.3 bar front and 2.1 rear when fully loaded. Also what I find is that on the Volvo stickers they recommend the full load pressure also for better fuel economy. In other words that has the least rolling resistance.
Still, 2.5 bar if that was still reasonably cold is WAY too much pressure for those old cars. They are a lot lighter than our modern cars that have more safety measures build in. Car's in the 80's were often under 1000kg in weight with only 2 liter or bigger engine equiped cars going over... or if cars that had more luxury/safety features than what was normal at the time. Nowadays you're hard pressed to find a car of the same size as a Volvo 440 that's under 1100kg. You'd be looking more in the 1200-1300kg range more often than not.
So old cars didn't need as much air as modern cars due to weight differences, but it's no surprise that your Volvo was feeling overinflated for its weight.
Also I did read that Vredestein recommends a pressure of 2.4 bar all-around. Maybe that's where your garage at the time got the data from? The forum user said that Vredestein was often 0.2 bar over the manufacturer's recommended pressure. My only guess might be that the Vredestein sidewalls might be softer, just like I have with my Michelin. If you were using different rubber shoes with a stiffer construction for your Volvo 440 than yeah... overinflation will occur.
Luckily you noticed it and corrected it, but it also goes to show how much the information you get from the tyres can change with just a seemingly small pressure difference, and also how the car reacts to those changes in handling.
Too low isn't good, but too high isn't either.
Here's another nice visual for tyre wear patterns and causes:
It wasn't him that increased it, but the garage who worked on his car. Hence I also said earlier to drive slow and safely when trying out how it feels to have overinflated or underinflated tyres, and only do it in the dry.
As a ex-Bridgestone employee. How far am I correct or incorrect with my statements? Feel free to stop me if I talk jibberish. A real hands-on expert is of course always more knowledgable and has more experience than a arm-chair big mouth like I am.
In my case the bloody tyre was just deflating itself in a weeks time of moderate driving. Since it wasn't he valve, and the rims have been checked by multiple people and cleaned as well, tyre were checked for punctures, plus having used tyre glue... the tyres were just deflating. It happened at such a rate that eventually I just tried to increase my tyre pressures while being well aware of the possible dangers. For me that worked.
Maybe I shoud've gotten Bridgestone tyres instead of soft Michelin tyres.
My car has a maximum load of 950 per axle, so my current tyres (Michelin Energy Savers) are the correct loadindex with an 82T (475kg and 190kph for a 103HP car). Still the ply construction is a bit weak on the sidewalls I think, cause that only has 1 polyester ply. Which I was surprised to read just now for a radial tyre. The tread has 1 polyester ply + 2 steel plies. So my guess is that the actual base carcass construction consists of that 1 polyester ply, with those two steel plies just strengthening the running surface.
Michelin says this is a fuel saving tyre, which is probably due to its lower weight from using a polyester based carcass. Still, I think that also makes these tyres softer than normal if a steel ply was used in the base construction.
Maybe I am wrong with my thoughts on tyre pressures and tyre constructions, but again as an ex-Bridgestone man please correct me where I go wrong.