PD got carried away with their Ford GT LM cars

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Snakebitten

Snakebitten

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I've noticed this since the get go of playing DCC races. Strange how all the Ford GT LM spec cars and even the Pagani Zonda are fast WAY beyond what there specs could possibly allow them to be.

I've done laps both in A & B Spec on Nurb 24 config with the Ford GT spec II black one and my 787b, BMW LM, 908 FAP all with stage 3 turbos. Guess what the fully tuned up Ford GT spec II is lapping just as fast as the LMP's and was actually faster than the 787b and BMW in the hands of my fastest BOB. I guess PD really loves the Ford GT and Zonda LM a lot lol. No way an 800+hp 1165 kg car like the Fords fully tuned up are going to have a prayer of beating 850+hp 900kg. I've actually watched the real time during the various races and they post better lap times at full boil than the LMP's at full boil. Kinda cheesy to me.

They even made the fake LM Fords much faster than the two legitimate, dominant LM cars of that class. The Oreca Vipers and the Corvette C5R. Both these cars come with better specs than the Fords and the Vipers make more ultimate power and are lighter but some how they are woefully slower than
any of the Ford GT LM cars. Oh well
 
i might be down to suspension. on the nurburgring softer suspension is vital. the lmp cars have rock hard settings which mean they bounce all over the place on the bumpy parts of the track and loose loads of time.
 
Bspec Bob drives very conservatively. The LMP/C cars should destroy it on an all out assault.
 
Snakebitten
I've done laps both in A & B Spec on Nurb 24 config with the Ford GT spec II black one and my 787b, BMW LM, 908 FAP all with stage 3 turbos. Guess what the fully tuned up Ford GT spec II is lapping just as fast as the LMP's and was actually faster than the 787b and BMW in the hands of my fastest BOB. I guess PD really loves the Ford GT and Zonda LM a lot lol. No way an 800+hp 1165 kg car like the Fords fully tuned up are going to have a prayer of beating 850+hp 900kg. I've actually watched the real time during the various races and they post better lap times at full boil than the LMP's at full boil. Kinda cheesy to me.
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That ends with a "?"
 
You also have to take into account that the AI sucks hardcore with high powered cars.

If this were done online, then you can see the Ford GT get deuced on.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Bspec Bob drives very conservatively. The LMP/C cars should destroy it on an all out assault.
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Yeah that's what I figured to happen. I've tried other tracks too like Le Sarte and Tokyo and similar outcomes. My BOB has done a 7:38 best at Nurburgring in the Ford GT. Only my Bentley LMP and Audi R8 have beaten that time in BSpec that is. My ZR1 RM cant even do that time and its setup nicely for bob. Run the DCC championship and you will see them beating the Jaguar XJ9 on the Ring and even sometimes Tokyo. The Ford GT seems to corner at a higher level than a lot of the LMP's when I look at the real time and sector times. Not a huge deal as i love the Ford GT but its very noticeable that they perform beyond what the specs should enable them to do.
 
Snakebitten
They even made the fake LM Fords much faster than the two legitimate, dominant LM cars of that class. The Oreca Vipers and the Corvette C5R. Both these cars come with better specs than the Fords and the Vipers make more ultimate power and are lighter but some how they are woefully slower than
any of the Ford GT LM cars. Oh well
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They do?

Ford GT LM Race Car #4 - 587hp, 506ftlb*, 1140kg, 514.9hp/tonne, 1.942kg/hp
Ford GT LM Race Car Spec II #4 - 587hp, 506lbft*, 1130kg, 519.5hp/tonne, 1.925kg/hp
Gran Turismo Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car #4 - 572hp, 513lbft*, 1165kg, 491.0hp/tonne, 2.037kg/hp

Dodge Viper GTS-R Team Oreca Race Car #51 '00 - 570hp, 499lbft*, 1150kg, 495.7hp/tonne, 2.018kg/hp
Dodge Viper GTS-R Team Oreca Race Car #91 '00 - 570hp, 499lbft*, 1150kg, 495.7hp/tonne, 2.018kg/hp
Chevrolet Corvette C5-R (C5) #64 '00 - 591hp, 477lbft*, 1139kg, 518.9hp/tonne, 1.927kg/hp

Looks to me like the Vipers come with less power than all three GT LMs, less torque than all three GT LMs and are heavier and have a worse power-to-weight ratio than two of the three. The C5-R, meanwhile, has more power - just, in the case of two of them - than the GT LMs, way less torque than all of them and is heavier and has a worse power-to-weight ratio than one of them.

I'd say their specs were all much of a muchness, rather than one bunch being better than the other, with the notable exception that the three genuine GT1 cars are eight to ten years older and bound by the regulations of the time, specifically with regards to allowed downforce levels.

*Converted from kgm - nice touch having Imperial horsepower and metric torque when one is a function of the other - so only accurate to within 6lbft.
 
sumbrownkid
You also have to take into account that the AI sucks hardcore with high powered cars.

If this were done online, then you can see the Ford GT get deuced on.
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True but given that the Ford GT, at the hands of the AI in the DCC, barely hit 185-190 on the straights means they are not making much more than there stock 550+hp to go along with there 1165kg weight. There is no way they should be sniffing at let alone beating an LMP cars fast lap time. Even if the AI used the fully tweaked 800hp Spec II like I did it shouldn't come close to a stock LMP much less LMP's with stage 3 turbos like I tested them against. Yet PD programed the stock LM Fords to do just that. Like I said b4 not a huge issue just one I found interesting. Wish there was a white premium Ford GT Spec II though.
 
Famine I believe my Oreca is 1150Kg and my Ford GT is 1160kg and if my memory serves my Viper was closer to 600 and the vette close to that. Might have been after oil change now that I think of it. I'm not home now to double check. But if you are right then I stand corrected on the issue vs the Orecas and the C5r's. But there's no question given the specs you listed that those Fords have no business running with the LMP's like they do in the DCC mainly.
 
The Test Car is one of my faves and yes it does punch above its weight, great aero, downforce and suspension set up is the key I think!
 
phil_75
The Test Car is one of my faves and yes it does punch above its weight, great aero, downforce and suspension set up is the key I think!
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Yep one of my faves as well. Glad I'm not the only one that sees its quite a bit faster than it's specs indicate. Man I've seen them just destroy the turns and catch up to the LMP's only to be beaten on the straights. Tracks with lots of turns is where they seem to do the damage to some LMP's. Definitely one of the best corner carvers regardless of class in the game.
 
Snakebitten
Famine I believe my Oreca is 1150Kg and my Ford GT is 1160kg and if my memory serves my Viper was closer to 600 and the vette close to that. Might have been after oil change now that I think of it. I'm not home now to double check. But if you are right then I stand corrected on the issue vs the Orecas and the C5r's.
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All pulled from 0.0 mile cars as they arrive in your garage.

Snakebitten
But there's no question given the specs you listed that those Fords have no business running with the LMP's like they do in the DCC mainly.
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That depends on two factors. Downforce and what specs the cars running those races are.

Downforce for real cars is limited by the regulations of the time the car ran - 2000 GTS class for the Oreca and C5-R, '99 LMP for the BMW V12 LMR, 2003 LMGTP for the Bentley Speed 8, 1988 C1 for the Jaguar XJR-9 LM and so on and so forth - while the fantasy cars are not limited by any regulations. I'd expect the fantasy Fords to be running more downforce than the top class Le Mans cars - significantly so in the case of the older ones.

Now, my "Typical Opponents" list shows the XJR-9 as the highest ranked car, with 709PP, 914hp and weighing 894kg (1,022hp/tonne!) while the highest ranked Ford GT LM is Ford GT LM Race Car Spec II #4 with 636PP, 606hp and 1130kg (536hp/tonne). On the face of it, that looks like a walkover, but look closer - the Jaguar has nearly twice the power-to-weight ratio, nearly 50% more power, but only 10% more Performance Points? That should be screaming to you that the Ford has loads more downforce available to it and, regardless of the speed on the straights, more downforce on the same tyres generally means more cornering speed. Loads more downforce means loads more cornering speed. For comparison, the Formula GT runs 50% more power-to-weight ratio than the Jaguar (half the difference above) and slightly less power (call it no difference at all), so it should be running a PP advantage over the Jaguar of less than the difference between the Jaguar and the Ford, but it's 20% higher (twice the difference above). The reason - downforce.


The performance points system isn't brilliant, I'll grant you, but it does let you know a few things if you know how to look at it.
 
Hmmm. Very good analysis on the PP system Famine. I never took the time to look it over. This would explain why they run down the XJ9 so easily in the turns. So the fords have higher downforce than the Jag.

Strangely enough though I use my 787b a lot in bspec for the DCC and at times the Fords will match my lvl 40 Bobs lap times when they are redlined. My downforce is max for the Ring. Sometimes they will even excede Bobs lap times. I do have lvl 3 turbo on the 787b. I'm gonna try my Jaguar XJ9 in the DCC and give it appropriate downforce just to see how it fairs against the Fords with my Bob driving. Looks like I have to bone up on the PP system.
 
It is worth remembering that the Original GT cars (Viper, Corvette...) are built around GTS regulations, not GT1.

GT1 came in around 2005 if I remember, and that resulted in a an altered spec as FIA GT and ACO cars could run together without the need for a handicap systems.

The Ford's are powerful, but the GT LM Spec II Test Car (or Spec III as I like to call it) appears to be built as more of a GT1-type car, as the performance also appears to blur into LM GTP class levels (AMG Mercedes CLK GTR, Panoz Esperante).

So the Spec II T is actually running as an evolution of a car that was built by PD for GT regs "The first two GT LM's". So it is essentially an evolution of an evolution.

Also the Ford has a lot more downforce than a Group C car, as Famine rightly points out. That enables to it also hold at Indy Superspeedway in the high speed corners as well. The Jag is faster in a straight line, but has to brake harder to make corners. Also lets not forget PD's ridiculous drafting.
 
Nice additional info there Mr.Mulsanne. Still not fully liking the PP system but I at least understand what is going on now. I see the same senario played out between the much lighter Amuse S2K Turbo and the Audi R8 LMS on the 4 hour Nurb Enduro. If the Audi is behind it pushes the S2K hard and the S2K actually drives away from it. But the Audi average speed, I now realize due to superior downforce allows the Audi to pull away from the Amuse S2K once it passes it during the pit stop.
 
Btw Famine I checked my garage and my black spec II Ford GT weights 1165kg and 572hp whereas my Oreca Viper 1150kg and 570hp. So hp wise they are a wash pretty much but Viper is lighter. But I did not factor in the downforce aspect at the time I initially posted this thread.

I have set of both fully tuned. Viper makes 833hp to Ford 826hp. I noticed they both have identical downforce values in the tuning screen but Viper is lighter. Yet the Ford GT is rated 693pp to Vipers 688pp when both are fully tuned up and downforce is maxed on both. What am I missing? Doesn't the lighter weight/more power of the Viper not factor in at all? Or is it that the downforce is just given more significance in the PP system?
 
I personally think that the Ford GT's advantage comes in part due to the flat chassis design. It is relatively short in height compared to most other cars in its class, but it's also just as long and wide. A flatter car should be more aerodynamically proficient, and a lower center of weight should make it roll less while cornering, right?
 
I love the Spec II Test Car. It has fantastic handling, looks beautiful because of it's bare carbon body.. and listen to the EXHAUST!
 
I'll elaborate in my earlier point. On average a GTS / GT1 car does 3.45 on average. At the 2008 Le Mans Group C race, the fastest car was a Mercedes C12 (think it was, may be wrong) that was 3:32 (ish). I remember Autosport saying it was easily fastest car on track. So if you put an average Group C at times of 3:35, and a GTS / GT1 at 3:45, then consider the GT Spec II Test being a tuned car, it seems quite reasonable that it could get within touching distance of a Jaguar.
 
Snakebitten
Btw Famine I checked my garage and my black spec II Ford GT weights 1165kg and 572hp whereas my Oreca Viper 1150kg and 570hp. So hp wise they are a wash pretty much but Viper is lighter. But I did not factor in the downforce aspect at the time I initially posted this thread.

I have set of both fully tuned. Viper makes 833hp to Ford 826hp. I noticed they both have identical downforce values in the tuning screen but Viper is lighter. Yet the Ford GT is rated 693pp to Vipers 688pp when both are fully tuned up and downforce is maxed on both. What am I missing? Doesn't the lighter weight/more power of the Viper not factor in at all? Or is it that the downforce is just given more significance in the PP system?
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Have you checked the torque figures? Torque seems to be more important PP wise than power, which is why a mid range turbo gives a higher PP rating than a High range one on certain cars.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I love the test car too but I'm trying to understand the PP system using the Viper vs Ford GT comparo. Mr. Mulsanne I get what you said before and your clarification. Thanks. I'm just wondering if they both have the same downforce values then where is the aero advantage of the Ford coming from? Just looking for the visual representation of this advantage though I know it's a hybrid of two classes per what you said.

Btw right now I have Bob in the Black SPEC II on the 24 hours Nurburgring race against an Audi R8 Playstation LMP, Pesky Judd GVS, 787b, GT1 and the Spec II is just destroying them. I just came back home and 3 1/2 hours in the Spec II is about 3/4 track lead on the Audi LMP. Its a fully powered up Spec II but man I did not expect this. Even my 908 FAP hasn't done this this fast to an Audi LMP save the lowly TDi. The car is insane.
 
The GTLM Spec II wrecks online. Its very hard to build a car that is faster at the same PP or HP.
 
My favourite car in GT5 online is the Ford GT Test car, that thing is amazing, with a bit of tweeking you can go full power out of a corner and not powerslide at all!

i just got the Golf GT, its very good too, not as good as that test car though!
 
Woke up this morning and the Spec II is 2 1/2 laps up on the Audi R8 LMP. no rain so far. Looks like I found another set it and forget it car. I'm not too enamored with the PP system though. But now it makes sense why the LMP cars have a hard time passing and getting away from cars in the rain like the Fords and even the Audi R8 LMS.
 
The PP system has its foibles, it should be said.

Cars have "innate" PP ratings which seem governed by the age of the car (older cars = lower PP) and the drivetrain (from highest to lowest PP, I think it's MR, FR, 4W, RR, FF). The PP is then modified by, in order of most significant to least significant factor, weight (lower weight = higher PP), downforce (lower downforce = lower PP), power (lower power = lower PP) and torque (lower torque = lower PP).

However, precisely deciphering the PP system is very difficult. I can't tell you, for instance, how much PP you'll get for 5 more horsepower and 1 more lbft in a standard Honda S2000, only that, in general, an older S2000 has a lower PP rating even if it's identical in specs to a newer one (compare '01 and '06).

I've been logging data on PP on certain cars and encoded - the GTP user behind gt5cars.net - has been trying his damnedest to work out the method behind the PP madness, but we're not there yet.
 
Ah that's what I'm missing. So some cars have some built in non visible advantage based on age, layout etc dispite some having same downforce, power values etc. That's the disconnect that was messing with my understanding of the PP system.

I wish PD gave precise info on this system as well as precisely how to manage Bobs instead of all the guessing we have to do to figure out what they did. I miss old fashion game manuals that pretty much explain the whole games functions. But then again these games are far more complex. The manual for GT5 would probably rival War and Peace lol and wouldn't fit in the packaging.
 
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Snakebitten
Woke up this morning and the Spec II is 2 1/2 laps up on the Audi R8 LMP. no rain so far. Looks like I found another set it and forget it car. I'm not too enamored with the PP system though. But now it makes sense why the LMP cars have a hard time passing and getting away from cars in the rain like the Fords and even the Audi R8 LMS.
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The R8 LMS should not compete very well against other GTS / GT1 / LM cars, as it is built to FIA GT3 Regulations.
 
MrMulsanne
The R8 LMS should not compete very well against other GTS / GT1 / LM cars, as it is built to FIA GT3 Regulations.
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Let Bob use a 787b on the Nurburgring in the rain. Yes the Bobs are horrible in the rain but I've seen him have problems with the R8 LMS "only" in the rain hence me mentioning the rain part earlier.

On the dry none of my LMP, GT1, GTS cars have any trouble with the Audi LMS. In the rain I've seen the LMS hang on to the back of Bob in the 787b for half lap before finally being dispatched. And this is a level 40 Bob in a stage 3 turbo 787b.

Actually as I write this I'm realizing it may be more of PD's Bob faulty wet driving programing than anything about the LMS itself.
 
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These "PD favors ___ car over ___ car" threads are past their prime. It's a game, highly doubtful they'd say "hey, let's make this car better than all the rest."

People are reaching anymore to find stuff to complain about.
 
disinfected
These "PD favors ___ car over ___ car" threads are past their prime. It's a game, highly doubtful they'd say "hey, let's make this car better than all the rest."

People are reaching anymore to find stuff to complain about.
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Thanks for dumping your text diarrhea in the thread. Now I gotta disinfect my thread j/k. I'm not one who lives on GT Planet so not familiar with those types of thread overkill you are talking about. Don't read or post in threads that are beneath you then. I learned a few things in this thread so it wasn't a big waste for me as it was for you. But thanks.
 
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