PD must be doing something awesome.

wowbaggerBR
I'm not talking about the Vettel trophy, I'm talking about the one that you get simply by completing beginners events.
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I never thought otherwise, nor is your language difference the problem, I have my own language problem too you know :sly:

We are just saying that you concluded too easy that trophy lists indicate how much people played or not.
But I think @Griffith500 pointed that out in posts above perfectly, so i'll back him up on that.

As I mentioned in other threads before ... there is a lot of unused potential in the trophy mechanism ... After GT5 I hoped it would improve and PD would use it to their advantage ...
GT6 proved quite the opposite which really saddens me ... because its so much fun to aim for that ultimate trophy which is so hard to achieve by 95% of the users ... in GT6 it is so hard not to achieve it for 95% of the users ...

And the log-ons is a completely different story ... I keep that 200% bonus up .. so yes I log in every single day ... (don't ask me why... neurotic? perhaps) ... its just for the credits

Boy I would love the trophy list to be an indication of how experienced a player really is ... (a bit like GT5 but then with some more detail)

conniptions:confused: @Tenacious D ... lucky for me we have Google Translate 👍
 
Tenacious D
And as much as I love GT6, the shortcomings that PS3 forces on it are discouraging. It's still an amazing system, but it's seven years old, and Kaz pushed it about as far as he could.

I want to get that taste of what Gran Turismo can be, especially considering no one knows what tomorrow will bring to this troubled world. Be safe and happy. ;)
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What will you do, if the game has the same shortcomings on PS4? Will you just say... I want to get that taste of what GT can be on PS5. A console which doesn't has only 5GB ram available for developers and other shortcomings. No offense. But better hardware doesn't protect developers from making bad decisions and that is the problem.
 
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Tenacious D
Well, I did say I had to run, and I didn't really say what I wanted to in response to Imari.

And @Imari, look. When a game is just released, and has work yet to be finished with it, and then the parent company/publisher begins making rumors about a successor prequel mini-game after just a few short months, and the developer most decidedly did not, who would you blame? Seriously. :P
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http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/Gran-Turismo-7-is-coming-in-2014-2013-11-20

You remember when Kaz himself teased GT7 for 2014?

Kaz started the rumours. Not Sony. And he did it before GT6 was even released.

With this new information, do you still feel the same way?


To answer the question, I blame both PD and Sony for being idiots.

Kaz is an adult. All the people that work for PD are adults. They're not slaves, Sony can't force them to do unreasonable things. It's not like Sony just waltzed up one day and said "Hey, that GT7 thing. End of 2014, better get cracking!"

Kaz is a bigwig in Sony, if he doesn't like the way PD is being treated I'm guessing he has enough pull to at least have a go at doing something about it. There will have been discussions about when PD thought they could reasonably deliver GT7. Kaz and any other managers at PD will have had their input. Only a moron sets a production date without taking into account input from the people making the thing.

If Sony is bothering to ask, I imagine that they're desperate for a racing game on their new console. Fair enough, they probably should be. If you're a racing game enthusiast, there's no real reason to buy a PS4 right now.

PD has sort of painted themselves into a corner in releasing GT6 on PS3 and requiring (as far as I can see) a solid six months or more of support. Whoever's decision that was, it's done now and they need to stick with it, and not flip flop.

I maintain that GT6 support comes first. Absolutely. You do not abandon a product in the marketplace to go chasing after new and shiny. If they can do GT7P as well, that would be cool. If not, they need to push it back.



Very few had conniptions over GT5 Prologue. Most of us were thrilled stupid over it, I was.
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You know why? Because GT5P/GT5/GT6 hadn't happened yet.

The world hadn't had a GT for three years. GT4 Prologue only happened because GT4 was delayed, so GT5P was taken as a sign that GT5 was near. People were rightly excited to get a taste of the game early. And it was a pretty good little game, if overpriced. In some ways, it's still got features that GT6 doesn't have, or it did until the servers got turned off.

The difference now is that we know that a Prologue means bugger all in terms of the game that comes after it. We've had the last two main titles come out unfinished. I don't think it's odd that people want PD/Sony to lay off GT7P/GT7 until they finish what they started with GT6.

I'd be happy to see a GT7P before GT7, because I think it suits PD's development style. I'd rather they take four years and release it as a Prologue and then a full rather than rush for three years again. But if GT7P comes out while there's still development work to be done on GT6, I hope the media jump all over them for it.

There will be people like you who stick with PD till the bitter end, finding whatever positives you can in order to keep playing. But I think if they ditch GT6 they'll find that they burn another portion of their customers. All they have to do is keep alienating a few hundred thousand more people each time, and they'll find that things get tight pretty fast.


As you've noted, disgruntled people are louder than happy people. This is a general rule of customer service. I was once taught that a happy customer tells one friend, and an unhappy customer tells ten. That's almost certainly inaccurate, but the gist is likely correct: Unhappy people spread word faster than happy people.

That's how bad reputations are built. That's how things like EA's reputation are built. Most of their games are somewhere between fine and pretty good, and most customers interactions with them are probably nothing out of the ordinary. But they have this reputation, because a significant minority had bad experiences and are extremely vocal about it.


I maintain I want to see GT back being the best it can be. GT1 through 3 were outstanding. I don't feel that GT5 or GT6 have met their potential. GT6 may yet do, but they're making it harder and harder on themselves with each day that passes.
 
Zelalem
What will you do, if the game has the same shortcomings on PS4?
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Then I'll wake up and play the actual GT7/Prologue. ;)

Do you expect there to be a couple of cars casting headlight beams at night, and very few ambient light sources on PS4? Or the same number of audio channels? The same limited ram for shadowmap textures? The same 2D crowds and trees? The same particule effects? The same number of polygons and textures on screen? The same number of cars on track?

Seriously, did you expect Killzone Shadowfall to look like Killzone III? I didn't either. The PS4 is way too poweful, up there with the average gaming PC now. So no, I don't expect GT6 to be ported over with nothing changed. If you do, you're silly or just arguing for the sake of it.

Imari
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/Gran-Turismo-7-is-coming-in-2014-2013-11-20

You remember when Kaz himself teased GT7 for 2014?
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Yes, I do. And I read that last night, poking around for any sniff of Kaz mentioning GT7 Prologue.

Do you remember Kaz himself stating in 2009 that they could release GT5 at any time? And in early 2010?

Kaz started the rumours. Not Sony. And he did it before GT6 was even released.
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He's also been tempering those remarks, possibly because SONY yanked his chain a bit, and possibly because of how so many gamers take his vague predictions and turn them into blood oaths on their own. But he said nothing about Prologue that I can find.

Now, I have to quibble about this.

Kaz is an adult. All the people that work for PD are adults. They're not slaves, Sony can't force them to do unreasonable things. It's not like Sony just waltzed up one day and said "Hey, that GT7 thing. End of 2014, better get cracking!"
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Sure, whatever. They aren't slaves, but they might as well be. We've been round and round about this before, but you might as well accept that in Japan, the subsidiary owned by the company does what the bosses want. That's just Asian life. The Kaz who up and decides that his team is going to make an RC helicopter game isn't in Japan, or in a Japanese company. SONY wants a GT7 Prologue, SONY will get a GT7 Prologue, and that's that. Input is one thing, but much beyond that, and you aren't where you want to be in the company. And that's unthinkable to the Japanese worker. Things will happen over there, and we're just gaijin spectators. I don't know why you can't get this.

Very few had conniptions over GT5 Prologue. Most of us were thrilled stupid over it, I was.
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You know why? Because GT5P/GT5/GT6 hadn't happened yet.
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Well duh. That's the point. ;)

Now we do have a different scenario here, with people playing not just GT6, but GT5, and it being supported another eight weeks or so. And in spite of what anyone says, both are pretty darn good games or they wouldn't be played much at all. But, this is a very different scenario because a system is out that makes the PS3 look downright antique, and its games a little old school.

There is quite a divide on this issue. A lot of people will obviously be displeased if GT6 gets table scraps of support, and a bright shiny new Prologue appears this fall or early next year. But you might recall that a lot of people were adamant that GT6 be a PS4 game. Initially, I was one of them. Earth went on epic tirades against GT6 being a PS3 game. Some of us were won over, some like him weren't, but many of us on both sides still want that PS4 game, whatever form it takes. You guys might be annoyed to the Nth degree over that, but you aren't going to change our minds.

Something will happen. We'll accept it or we won't, but it's out of our hands.

Well, one more thing as to why we cling to Gran Turismo over other games. Many of you critics insist that racing games are racing games. Race Room, Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, P CARS!! So what's the big deal over GT?

Well, we've posted about this countless times. It's hard to define, because emotional reactions to a game often are. But there's just something different about Gran Turismo. Forza kind of sort of tries to be, because MS thinks copying a formula produces similar results. But it doesn't work that way. Better features in other racers should appeal to us, and that woks on paper too. So naturally, AC or P CARS are often mentioned as rivals or even GT killers, when they're nothing of the sort, and will be lucky to sell in Forza 4 numbers.

You can argue against this until the grave swallows us up, but you'd be wasting your time. There's nothing like Gran Turismo out there, that has the net buzzing every time there is news about a new game or Prologue. That has us setting aside money by the tens of millions to reserve a copy. If it wasn't so, we wouldn't be so adamant about it.
 
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Tenacious D
Seriously, did you expect Killzone Shadowfall to look like Killzone III? I didn't either. The PS4 is way too poweful, up there with the average gaming PC now. So no, I don't expect GT6 to be ported over with nothing changed. If you do, you're silly or just arguing for the sake of it.
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The graphics will be better, obviously. But graphics never were the shortcomings of a GT game. AI, sound and lack of communication are the shortcomings of GT. Furthermore GT5 und 6 were unfinished and PD made bad design decisions.
 
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Sure, whatever. They aren't slaves, but they might as well be. We've been round and round about this before, but you might as well accept that in Japan, the subsidiary owned by the company does what the bosses want. That's just Asian life. The Kaz who up and decides that his team is going to make an RC helicopter game isn't in Japan, or in a Japanese company. SONY wants a GT7 Prologue, SONY will get a GT7 Prologue, and that's that. Input is one thing, but much beyond that, and you aren't where you want to be in the company. And that's unthinkable to the Japanese worker. Things will happen over there, and we're just gaijin spectators. I don't know why you can't get this.
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Nice to see you still like completely making things up.
 
I think enough people have remarked about the nature of Japanese culture here, and my bro who lives in Japan said so to me, so whatever, boss. ;)
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Kaz is not categorized as a japanese "worker" when he serves on the Sony board. I'm pretty sure he has a say in what happens with the GT series and if he has the pride everyone seems to think he does, he'll certainly speak up if the board wishes him to do things that cannot be done or meet deadlines he cannot meet.

This whole "blame Sony" mentality is a load of hogwash IMO.
 
Tenacious D
I think enough people have remarked about the nature of Japanese culture here, and my bro who lives in Japan said so to me, so whatever, boss. ;)
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You can't apply a whole 'culture' to every person and company. Fact is you have no idea how things work with PD and Kaz, everything you just said was an assumption or guess.

That has us setting aside money by the tens of millions to reserve a copy. If it wasn't so, we wouldn't be so adamant about it.
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As for this you really need to quit posting your personal opinions as 'us' and 'we'. As for "tens of millions", GT6 sales would like a word. Again stick to "I", not we. You aren't a spokesman for anyone.
 
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Zelalem
The graphics will be better, obviously. But graphics never were the shortcomings of a GT game. AI, sound and lack of communication are the shortcomings of GT. Furthermore GT5 und 6 were unfinished and PD made bad design decisions.
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Exactly, i don't know what happened over there as in the PS1 days they were true innovators in many ways, but since PS3 it has been one bad design and production decision followed by another, and the climax of it all shows in what mess they have made of GT6 so far. I think they have turned into one of the most incompetent developers out there, and i just cannot see them throwing their ways around and getting back to form again.

So far they still had their loyal fanbase so although GT5 was disappointing in many ways, the fans forgave them for it and looked forward to GT6 being the fix they needed, but now that 6 turned out to be an even greater mess there goes a big part of that fanbase also + finally there will be strong competition for them on PS4 in the form of PCARS and other driving games, so this might be the end of them ruling the genre on Playstation with the monopoly they enjoyed so far.

DSkywalker01
Highly doubt it.

Spec 2.0 will just be all of the promised features and the fanboys will love it.
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I'm thinking the same, being incompetent is one thing, but blatantly lying and deceiving your customers is quite another and i don't think they have sank that low. So for the people that bought GT6 you will probably get what was promised in the end with that trademark PD "big delay", but I hope most of you will understand now what you get yourself into when buying a GT game these days... lot's of frustration!
 
Tenacious D
Yes, I do. And I read that last night, poking around for any sniff of Kaz mentioning GT7 Prologue.

Do you remember Kaz himself stating in 2009 that they could release GT5 at any time? And in early 2010?
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What, so your claim is that anything that Kaz says has been pushed on him by Sony? And anything that Sony says is Sony pressuring Kaz?

Well, I'm not going to argue with you there. Clearly you can twist any circumstance so that it appears that Sony is controlling Kaz. Maybe it's true, but talking with you about it is going to be about as productive as discussing the existence of God with a theist.


Sure, whatever. They aren't slaves, but they might as well be. We've been round and round about this before, but you might as well accept that in Japan, the subsidiary owned by the company does what the bosses want. That's just Asian life. The Kaz who up and decides that his team is going to make an RC helicopter game isn't in Japan, or in a Japanese company. SONY wants a GT7 Prologue, SONY will get a GT7 Prologue, and that's that. Input is one thing, but much beyond that, and you aren't where you want to be in the company. And that's unthinkable to the Japanese worker. Things will happen over there, and we're just gaijin spectators. I don't know why you can't get this.
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Because your second hand experience of the working culture in Japan is at best a partial explanation. We've been through this before, I've worked in Japan and the things I've seen don't mesh up totally with what you're saying. No offense, but I trust my own experience a lot more than I trust third hand information from someone I've never met on the internet.

Yes, white collar workers largely just do as they're told. But management is also largely the same as anywhere else in the world, they just get what they want in slightly different ways. In Australia, the way to get what you want is usually to be a big enough asshole that people do it just to get you off their backs. In Japan, the way to get what you want is to abuse the sense of obligation that people have, but cleverly so that it doesn't appear obvious.

People do not get to Kaz's position by being pushovers. Brown-nosing is great and all, but at some point you have to actually be competent or you get shuffled off into some dead end role where you can't do too much damage. Gran Turismo 1 would seem to indicate that Kaz is competent, passionate and willing to share his ideas, which is why he is where he is today.

And even Kaz can't run a 150+ person company by himself, he will have at least half a dozen trusted "lieutenants" who will be able to express opinions freely to him and offer counsel. Only an idiot thinks he has a monopoly on good ideas. Likewise, Kaz seems to be respected enough that I doubt that Sony simply ignores his opinions. Maybe they don't follow them if they don't want to, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a voice.

Also, if you're painting PD as a contractor that simply does what Sony wants, you'll find that contractors do not just do what they're told in the time frame they're told with no questions asked. I can tell the builder to have my kitchen finished by next week, but if it can't be done he's likely to tell me to get stuffed. If he was a Japanese builder, perhaps he would very apologetically tell me that it's not possible for X, Y and Z reasons but that he'll get it finished as soon as possible. But if it can't be done, it can't be done and it's irresponsible of the contractor to not tell the contractee.

If this is all because PD have just not told Sony that what they're asking for is unreasonable, then I think a lot of that blame falls on PD.

There is quite a divide on this issue. A lot of people will obviously be displeased if GT6 gets table scraps of support, and a bright shiny new Prologue appears this fall or early next year. But you might recall that a lot of people were adamant that GT6 be a PS4 game. Initially, I was one of them. Earth went on epic tirades against GT6 being a PS3 game. Some of us were won over, some like him weren't, but many of us on both sides still want that PS4 game, whatever form it takes. You guys might be annoyed to the Nth degree over that, but you aren't going to change our minds.
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I agree that putting GT6 on PS3 was a mistake. But I think that of all the things they could do, making GT6 on PS3 then not supporting it is the worst possible choice. Think about the things they could have done.

1. Make the game on PS4, and support it.
2. Make the game on PS3, and support it.
3. Make the game on PS3, and not support it while they make a PS4 version.

I think #1 is the best, but#1 and #2 are both fine choices. #3 is a stupid thing for a company to do. Given that they've made it for PS3, so they're limited to #2 or #3, why would you go for #3?

But hey, maybe this is why I'm not the head of a multimillion dollar company, because I'm not enough of an asshole to my customers.
 
Imari
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/Gran-Turismo-7-is-coming-in-2014-2013-11-20

You remember when Kaz himself teased GT7 for 2014?

Kaz started the rumours. Not Sony. And he did it before GT6 was even released.

With this new information, do you still feel the same way?


To answer the question, I blame both PD and Sony for being idiots.

Kaz is an adult. All the people that work for PD are adults. They're not slaves, Sony can't force them to do unreasonable things. It's not like Sony just waltzed up one day and said "Hey, that GT7 thing. End of 2014, better get cracking!"

Kaz is a bigwig in Sony, if he doesn't like the way PD is being treated I'm guessing he has enough pull to at least have a go at doing something about it. There will have been discussions about when PD thought they could reasonably deliver GT7. Kaz and any other managers at PD will have had their input. Only a moron sets a production date without taking into account input from the people making the thing.

If Sony is bothering to ask, I imagine that they're desperate for a racing game on their new console. Fair enough, they probably should be. If you're a racing game enthusiast, there's no real reason to buy a PS4 right now.

PD has sort of painted themselves into a corner in releasing GT6 on PS3 and requiring (as far as I can see) a solid six months or more of support. Whoever's decision that was, it's done now and they need to stick with it, and not flip flop.

I maintain that GT6 support comes first. Absolutely. You do not abandon a product in the marketplace to go chasing after new and shiny. If they can do GT7P as well, that would be cool. If not, they need to push it back.





You know why? Because GT5P/GT5/GT6 hadn't happened yet.

The world hadn't had a GT for three years. GT4 Prologue only happened because GT4 was delayed, so GT5P was taken as a sign that GT5 was near. People were rightly excited to get a taste of the game early. And it was a pretty good little game, if overpriced. In some ways, it's still got features that GT6 doesn't have, or it did until the servers got turned off.

The difference now is that we know that a Prologue means bugger all in terms of the game that comes after it. We've had the last two main titles come out unfinished. I don't think it's odd that people want PD/Sony to lay off GT7P/GT7 until they finish what they started with GT6.

I'd be happy to see a GT7P before GT7, because I think it suits PD's development style. I'd rather they take four years and release it as a Prologue and then a full rather than rush for three years again. But if GT7P comes out while there's still development work to be done on GT6, I hope the media jump all over them for it.

There will be people like you who stick with PD till the bitter end, finding whatever positives you can in order to keep playing. But I think if they ditch GT6 they'll find that they burn another portion of their customers. All they have to do is keep alienating a few hundred thousand more people each time, and they'll find that things get tight pretty fast.


As you've noted, disgruntled people are louder than happy people. This is a general rule of customer service. I was once taught that a happy customer tells one friend, and an unhappy customer tells ten. That's almost certainly inaccurate, but the gist is likely correct: Unhappy people spread word faster than happy people.

That's how bad reputations are built. That's how things like EA's reputation are built. Most of their games are somewhere between fine and pretty good, and most customers interactions with them are probably nothing out of the ordinary. But they have this reputation, because a significant minority had bad experiences and are extremely vocal about it.


I maintain I want to see GT back being the best it can be. GT1 through 3 were outstanding. I don't feel that GT5 or GT6 have met their potential. GT6 may yet do, but they're making it harder and harder on themselves with each day that passes.
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Imari
What, so your claim is that anything that Kaz says has been pushed on him by Sony? And anything that Sony says is Sony pressuring Kaz?

Well, I'm not going to argue with you there. Clearly you can twist any circumstance so that it appears that Sony is controlling Kaz. Maybe it's true, but talking with you about it is going to be about as productive as discussing the existence of God with a theist.




Because your second hand experience of the working culture in Japan is at best a partial explanation. We've been through this before, I've worked in Japan and the things I've seen don't mesh up totally with what you're saying. No offense, but I trust my own experience a lot more than I trust third hand information from someone I've never met on the internet.

Yes, white collar workers largely just do as they're told. But management is also largely the same as anywhere else in the world, they just get what they want in slightly different ways. In Australia, the way to get what you want is usually to be a big enough asshole that people do it just to get you off their backs. In Japan, the way to get what you want is to abuse the sense of obligation that people have, but cleverly so that it doesn't appear obvious.

People do not get to Kaz's position by being pushovers. Brown-nosing is great and all, but at some point you have to actually be competent or you get shuffled off into some dead end role where you can't do too much damage. Gran Turismo 1 would seem to indicate that Kaz is competent, passionate and willing to share his ideas, which is why he is where he is today.

And even Kaz can't run a 150+ person company by himself, he will have at least half a dozen trusted "lieutenants" who will be able to express opinions freely to him and offer counsel. Only an idiot thinks he has a monopoly on good ideas. Likewise, Kaz seems to be respected enough that I doubt that Sony simply ignores his opinions. Maybe they don't follow them if they don't want to, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't have a voice.

Also, if you're painting PD as a contractor that simply does what Sony wants, you'll find that contractors do not just do what they're told in the time frame they're told with no questions asked. I can tell the builder to have my kitchen finished by next week, but if it can't be done he's likely to tell me to get stuffed. If he was a Japanese builder, perhaps he would very apologetically tell me that it's not possible for X, Y and Z reasons but that he'll get it finished as soon as possible. But if it can't be done, it can't be done and it's irresponsible of the contractor to not tell the contractee.

If this is all because PD have just not told Sony that what they're asking for is unreasonable, then I think a lot of that blame falls on PD.



I agree that putting GT6 on PS3 was a mistake. But I think that of all the things they could do, making GT6 on PS3 then not supporting it is the worst possible choice. Think about the things they could have done.

1. Make the game on PS4, and support it.
2. Make the game on PS3, and support it.
3. Make the game on PS3, and not support it while they make a PS4 version.

I think #1 is the best, but#1 and #2 are both fine choices. #3 is a stupid thing for a company to do. Given that they've made it for PS3, so they're limited to #2 or #3, why would you go for #3?

But hey, maybe this is why I'm not the head of a multimillion dollar company, because I'm not enough of an asshole to my customers.
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:bowdown:
 
Imari
What, so your claim is that anything that Kaz says has been pushed on him by Sony? And anything that Sony says is Sony pressuring Kaz?
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Twisting meanings a bit much, here, thank you. What was it you said about someone being an azz some time ago? ;)

Now look, let's at least try and have an actual discussion, and not the usual GT Planet peeing contest which goes on way too much around here.

Everything you say is kind of true, about Japanese business, management and so on. But if you think at some level, people can suddenly become Peter Pan and just do whatever the heck they want in the company if they feel like it, that's not Japanese business. There definitely is a "yes boss" etiquette in Japanese business, even in the board room, and you have to follow their rules. For instance using whatever proper and polite ways you can to try and convince the company that what they want is what you wanted all along. "We have been working on your proposals, but I did want to show you something we came up with, which we think you will find very beneficial and in harmony with your..." Not "No boss, your agenda is likely going to kill us all," or "Yes boss, but your orders are going to destroy our business, and relationship with our customers." If you have lived and worked with Japanese businesses in Japan, you will be at least somewhat aware of this.

If you think Kaz has one day gone through some kind of transformation and suddenly doesn't care about his game anymore, I think you are a very strange person. Which to me is what you have to assume in order to think he would decide out of the blue to kill off GT6 in order to clear the table so the team can get to work full bore on GT7. This makes no sense to me whatsoever, sounds completely out of character of the man. However, it could have been an avalanche of things that got out of Kaz's hands before he realized it.

I'm of the opinion shared by a few here that GT6 was originally intended to be on PS4, which is why we had a new game engine and tesselation algorithms, better physics, higher resolution and so on. I'm sure that when the decision was made, my opinion, by SONY to make the game for PS3, the upper crust of Team PD kind of time shared development on PS3 dev kits and PS4 ones, as the first parties seem to have all got some. They ported some assets and some code for weather and time of day transition over, made a few demos and were getting excited with the results. Then GT6 launched, and sold the 2.5 million to whatever it is now. SONY suits decided to come down to see what Kaz had going on PS4 hardware, and got a good look at something that impressed them. "How soon could you turn that into a sellable product?"

"Well... it would take some time, at least a year of serious work. But we do have a lot of content to complete for GT6 first."

"We would be happy to talk to you about this further. Carry on with your excellent work."

'Oh, holy sewer pudding...' *chainsmokes* :P

Now based on GT6 sales figures, if SONY decides that supporting, say, three million users is wasting their resources when indications are that PS4 is being held back because there's no Gran Turismo for it, they just might make what to us is a brain dead decision. And if they march down with an edict that says, Halt all/almost all work on GT6 and begin production on GT7, including a Prologue, Kaz won't say, "Hell no!" Or "Sure boss, what you say may be the expedient thing to do with your focus on PS4, but I will not abandon GT6." No, Kaz will negotiate, insistently but politely, but with full knowledge that if SONY wants a Prologue, SONY gets their Prologue. With the leaks coming from those inside SONY CE about Prologue coming soon, I suspect this is one likely possibility to explain the state of affairs.

Now if this is incorrect, instead of being snide about it, walk me through what actually might have occurred, and how it explains the dearth of news about anything GT6 lately.
 
You know, this quote was conveniently saved in my draft for this thread for a while now, and it seems oddly prescient:

Tenacious D
You're going to base the judgment of an entire country and their people on your experience with one guy? ;) Nice anecdote, but nothing I would draw any conclusions from.
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...you were saying?

Should we even approach the old topic of the "honourable" way you like to portray the entire Japanese population? Because I think the idea of screwing over the few million folks who bought GT6 by not releasing the stuff PD promised isn't particularly honourable, if that is what ends up happening. Especially when you consider that GT6, more than any other game in the series, has a sales total that could safely be described as likely much more fan-biased than the more casual-based turnout for the older titles.

It's amazing that you can put so much faith in your Japanese stereotype for Kaz and PD, while alternately assuming Sony themselves are a bunch of short-sighted idiots who would have both stopped work on a PS4 GT game only to then overturn that decision a year later and stop support of GT6 to focus on GT7. If you're going to be racist, at least be consistently racist.
 
But....but..his brother lives in Japan.

Tenacious D
Now if this is incorrect, instead of being snide about it, walk me through what actually might have occurred, and how it explains the dearth of news about anything GT6 lately.
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We can't. Know why? Neither of us work for PD or Sony.
 
Tenacious D
Twisting meanings a bit much, here, thank you. What was it you said about someone being an azz some time ago? ;)
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So why don't you tell me what you actually meant then?

Kaz outed GT7 as being as early as 2014.
Kaz outed GT5 as being able to be released any time from late 2009.

What do you read out of these two instances, because obviously I'm not getting the inference.

Everything you say is kind of true, about Japanese business, management and so on. But if you think at some level, people can suddenly become Peter Pan and just do whatever the heck they want in the company if they feel like it, that's not Japanese business. There definitely is a "yes boss" etiquette in Japanese business, even in the board room, and you have to follow their rules. For instance using whatever proper and polite ways you can to try and convince the company that what they want is what you wanted all along. "We have been working on your proposals, but I did want to show you something we came up with, which we think you will find very beneficial and in harmony with your..." Not "No boss, your agenda is likely going to kill us all," or "Yes boss, but your orders are going to destroy our business, and relationship with our customers." If you have lived and worked with Japanese businesses in Japan, you will be at least somewhat aware of this.
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Business 101. In no culture can you just stand up and say "**** you, we're doing it my way". The methods of the politics involved differ by culture, but they're there in all cultures. And Japanese culture is not limited by what you can say, simply how you can say it.

If you think Kaz has one day gone through some kind of transformation and suddenly doesn't care about his game anymore, I think you are a very strange person. Which to me is what you have to assume in order to think he would decide out of the blue to kill off GT6 in order to clear the table so the team can get to work full bore on GT7.
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Not at all. If he thinks it's to the benefit of the brand as a whole to cut his losses on GT6 and move on then I expect that he would. I expect him to be a savvy businessman as well as a good developer.

I think he'd be wrong in this particular situation, but I don't see that he needs to not care about the game in order to move on. Given the right circumstances, caring about the game as a whole (ie. beyond simply GT6) would be what might make him throw any given chapter under the bus.

Kaz won't say, "Hell no!" Or "Sure boss, what you say may be the expedient thing to do with your focus on PS4, but I will not abandon GT6." No, Kaz will negotiate, insistently but politely, but with full knowledge that if SONY wants a Prologue, SONY gets their Prologue. With the leaks coming from those inside SONY CE about Prologue coming soon, I suspect this is one likely possibility to explain the state of affairs.

Now if this is incorrect, instead of being snide about it, walk me through what actually might have occurred, and how it explains the dearth of news about anything GT6 lately.
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This may be exactly what happened. I wouldn't know.

I don't see why saying "Sure boss, what you say may be the expedient thing to do with your focus on PS4, but I will not abandon GT6" is off the table, but it's your scenario, not mine. In your scenario, as far as I can tell Sony has basically total control of PD so it's really irrelevant what Kaz thinks or does.

What I do know is that throwing away support for GT6 is almost certainly a terrible move for the long term. If Sony can't see that, and Kaz either can't see it or can't/won't convince Sony of the need for brand loyalty, the whole thing is a loss anyway.

If I'm Kaz in that situation, what would I do? As far as I can see, his options are:

1. Keep trying to convince Sony. Outcomes: Maybe just a waste of time, maybe he burns bridges doing so, maybe it works.
2. Carry on, take paycheck, enjoy life outside work. Outcomes: Maybe in ten years the Gran Turismo franchise crumbles and he gets shuffled into some other corporate role at Sony.
3. Throw toys, go start another game studio. Outcomes: ??

Kaz will know whether or not people in Sony can be convinced. If Sony doesn't understand the value of loyal customers (which I doubt, no company gets to that size without understanding loyalty) then there's no point trying.

#2 is playing it safe. #3 is a massive gamble.

But this is assuming as in your scenario, that Sony absolutely calls the shots and that Kaz has little to no influence.

I don't think that's the case, because there's good evidence that Kaz is intelligent and savvy, both in development and business. Sony has given him positions of responsibility, both in SCE and PD, and I don't believe that they're just for show. I don't believe that Sony is stupid, and I don't believe that an intelligent company doesn't pay attention to someone of Kaz's calibre.

Whatever is going on is of both Sony and Kaz's making, and to try to assign all blame to either party is to miss the point entirely.
 
jimipitbull
Kaz/PD has given me more enjoyment over the years than any other developer.

That's awesome. Keep up the good work Kaz and friends.
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You know, if we count cumulative hours, I'd absolutely agree. Naughty Dog is pretty close, as are Kojima Productions and, well, Nintendo in general thanks to childhood. None of them provide as much frustration either, though - the latter probably would if I really cared to invest in their systems/games these days.
 
PD has been doing something awesome ever since they started. I'm content with what I have with GT6, though admittedly not fully. Regardless of anything that could be improved, I'm still going to go back for more. Its a very nice simulator, and one that I have the hardware requirements for. :)
 
SlipZtrEm
You know, if we count cumulative hours, I'd absolutely agree. Naughty Dog is pretty close, as are Kojima Productions and, well, Nintendo in general thanks to childhood. None of them provide as much frustration either, though - the latter probably would if I really cared to invest in their systems/games these days.
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I suspect for me PD are beaten out by Blizzard (thanks, years of WoW!) and Square/Squeenix. It's probably a toss up for third between Naughty Dog and Polyphony.
 

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