PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[fastone371]

I avoid getting hit from the rear in 6 ways :

1.- Racing only in S99. Like in real racing : I don't want to race with dirty racers so I race with clean racers. It's A CHOICE.
2.- Showing respect and care for others, they will give back to you most of times. (and vice versa : when you push your line to pass others or you block others without respect, they will pay it on you ! ) Like in real racing.
3.- Letting enough margin to eventually erreurs to others and mine. Like in real racing.
4.- Reading erreurs and intentions in the radar and in the rear-view mirror. Like in real racing.
5.- Taking care of my car like it's was my real car. Like in real racing.

6.- AND Getting into races after enough laps in order to keep a good pace and not blocking others with my erreurs. Like in real racing.

The actual system doesn't encourage bad driving habits, at least at S99 because it's hard enough to maintain S99, ... SO go to S99 and keep yourself there.

The actual system only encourage bad driving habits in other rankings out of S, and that's a good thing and a prove that the system works well.
Keeping S and S99 for clean drivers.

Even being SR 99 does not promise you will not have SR C drivers on track with you, at least not in the Americas region. SR99 means nothing when you have so many yo-yo accounts who are after nothing but race wins, they may be SR99 now but 3 races ago they were SR40 and are willing to go straight back there in 1 race if it means winning or gaining positions.

 

[watto79]

@Andrej S Please take this in the spirit of my trying to help. Of course in the first one the huge lunge by the P4 car was not your fault. What others are trying to explain is that before that had happened there had been contact with the P1 car who subsequently went off track, hence the penalty. Not your fault but the lunge was incidental to the penalty. However.... on the approach to the T1 braking zone you took the decision to go three wide. That is a massively risky move to make, particularly considering it's the first lap. When you are three wide you are relying on the cooperation of two other drivers who you know nothing about to get through the corner cleanly without contact. I'd advise it's just not worth the risk. Pick either the outside 'racing' line or cover the inside line and follow the chosen car in front. If you'd done that the P4 lunger would have gone straight through the middle.
Of course hindsight is everything but it's something to think about when racing against unknown drivers, and what is and isn't worth the risk. Three wide certainly is very risky. "You can't win the race at the first corner but you can lose it" - somebody possibly said

For the second one you do make contact with the diver bomber at 3/4 seconds. That's pretty clear. Why it took so long to register isn't clear but the penalty system, as flawed as it may be, doesn't give penalties to someone going off track the way you did. Again, not your fault but the penalty wasn't triggered for the reason you think it was.

I hope that helps, I'm just trying to be constructive so you find racing a little less frustrating 👍

 

[BaareCZ]

My SR has dropped dramatically because of incidents like these itself absolute ******** the penalty system. In the first one I get rammed by the guy in 4th and I receive the penalty. In the second one the guy divebombs misses the corner completely goes wide on the exit and then pushes me of the track and I GET the penalty that he should have gooten what an absolute.

Although this one is very clear to all of us here (GTS penalty system connoisseurs), I understand why it must have been confusing for you. You're obviously new to GTS and its "awesome" penalty system. You couldn't have known what it was for. Most likely because it took the game 13 freaking seconds to give you a penalty for it. That's gotta be a record. Must be an improvement implemented with the latest update.

 

[Famine]

Mate in the first one I got rammed there's nothing I could have done to prevent it and you don't get penalties for contact you only get penalties for pushing people off track.

And what you got the penalty for was the car in first place turning into you, contacting you, and then going off-track. The rammer in 4th had nothing to do with it.

In the second one there was definitely no contact as the car of the guy that divebombed me didn't react like there was contact plus you could see on my screen that there was no contact

You can very clearly see the contact at 3s on the video you posted. Your front-right corner and his rear-left. Both of the cars react as if there's contact, and your radar shows it too.

 

[oneloops]

Even being SR 99 does not promise you will not have SR C drivers on track with you, at least not in the Americas region. SR99 means nothing when you have so many yo-yo accounts who are after nothing but race wins, they may be SR99 now but 3 races ago they were SR40 and are willing to go straight back there in 1 race if it means winning or gaining positions.

I'd let them pass (if I can't run away from them with better pace) and race close from behind making clean preasure.

It's a very funny way to race and a challenge. If you don't mind to win or not it's even better. But keeping it 100% clean.

Trying to keep the position ahead dirty racers has no point to me...

 

[Voodoovaj]

@Voodoovaj The game needs to look at why contact occurred which is very hard.

No, it doesn't really need that.

The penalty is in place as an alternative to wreckage. If all there were was wreckage, it would be straight forward. People would avoid wreckage because it ruins or ends your race. The penalty is the same.

That said, as I pointed out, if you hit something there are simple ways to determine fault. Off the top of my head I can even think of several rules that I would put in place, but I am not getting paid to design the system

As an aside, I write this to get it out of my head so it doesn't eat at me. (it's therapeutic). I have far more important things to occupy my head space.

The car ahead could brake to avoid an accident, scrape a wall, swerve last second to block, or the actual brake check. Steering inputs and braking zones need to be looked at.

I covered that. If there is an accident, there's a yellow flag situation in an area. You can pass along a certain degree of leeway to those who pass through that area by either reducing the penalty time or forgiving it. That might still need a few rules so it isn't abused, and again, I can think of a few off the top of my head, but again, not getting paid

With side contact it gets even harder but true looking at speed vectors and comparing changes would help. Currently the barge passer gets excused since they scrub speed by using the outside car as a guard rail. The outside car gains momentum and thus gets SR Down. However if you look at the directional vector, the inside car gets the advantage, getting steered in the right direction while the outside car loses out. Thus the inside car should get SR Down.

Yep - Newton's cradle. The inside car imparts force on the outside car, ergo the inside car is the culprit.

I have stated the racing line about a BILLION times. There is a spline that runs around the track in order to draw the racing line (doing it any other way seems strange). At the point of contact, the vehicle angles can be compared against the spline. The more divergent the angles are at the point of contact, the more "off line" a car is and therefore more at fault.

This shouldn't be hard. What I am talking about is 1990's technology. That it isn't happening now is unforgivable.

Of course that's still not enough to determine who hit who. Positioning and lines need to be looked at. Leaving enough room should be a criteria and is not that hard to look at.

I disagree. Positioning and lines are only considered in real life if someone makes multiple bad moves. If someone in game is in a poor position, the following car has to respect that, just like in real life. Real life racers "cover" a line by positioning their cars so that a pass in a certain spot will lead to an accident. In this game, tons of people go for that (nonexistent) gap.

But, in any event, as I stated above, compare angles to the racing line spline. That should be able to determine if someone is pointed the wrong way or not. Heck, you don;'t even need to compare the angle of the car. You can compare the angle of the input from the controller. That's even easier.

Force of contact is iffy since lag amplifies it or can even cause collisions to only occur on one side.

It's all reconciled on the server. What happens on your client is compared to the server. IF you get hit on your screen, but the driver never touched you on theirs, it's unfortunate, but it's not a penalty.

Anyway, currently it's way too simple and since the timer has been changed for contact then off, I keep getting SR Down for getting bumped off into the sand. It's a free for all even on race C now. PD should have an option to swap the main screen with the mirror view. Backwards view is much more important to survive

Yes, it's poop in a bucket at the moment.

I tried a lobby last night (and reminded myself why I hate the lobbies) and a dude went off at the bus stop at Spa. He drove back on track without waiting. He t-boned me and I got 5 seconds.

In MY version of the system, since he went off track without contact, he would now be in a "culprit" state, in other words, he's already done something wrong. If he hits me, I become a victim. He would have gotten a time penalty for being off track and a time penalty for hitting me. Even if he wasn't off track, the force of him hitting me in the side would outweighed the force of me driving forward by quite a significant amount. At worst, I would have incurred less penalty than he would have.

 

[Dorofint]

Heck, you don;'t even need to compare the angle of the car. You can compare the angle of the input from the controller. That's even easier.

I'm sorry but that's wrong. The angle of the controller can be manipulated. I read that a year and a half ago in some forums. At that time, the angle of the controller was queried by the game when there was a collision. The trick was: at a divebomb let go of the stick at the last moment. Since the stick is self-centering very quickly, the game registers no steering movement with the dive bomber at the moment of colission. Since the victim to the point of the divebomb already turns into the curve there is a steering movement registered with him. For the game, it looks as if the victim had steered into the culprit. With this trick divebombs were safely possible and there was even a penalty for the victim.
Amazing what energy and time some players invest to cheat.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm sorry but that's wrong. The angle of the controller can be manipulated. I read that a year and a half ago in some forums. At that time, the angle of the controller was queried by the game when there was a collision. The trick was: at a divebomb let go of the stick at the last moment. Since the stick is self-centering very quickly, the game registers no steering movement with the dive bomber at the moment of colission. Since the victim to the point of the divebomb already turns into the curve there is a steering movement registered with him. For the game, it looks as if the victim had steered into the culprit. With this trick divebombs were safely possible and there was even a penalty for the victim.
Amazing what energy and time some players invest to cheat.

Servers aren't bound by the memory restrictions of a game so they can store items of the past. There is no need to simply look at the moment of impact. Also, the replay is a storage of all the inputs, so there is also all of that.

Still, it comes back to Newton's cradle and the vehicle direction.

FPS games have been doing this stuff for decades now.

 

[O604]

I re-watched the 2 "etiquette" videos. And I actually think it's on the right path. But the problem is not everyone retains the info. And not everyone understands rules and etiquette are separate.

As the video states (1:15) : "One element of sports is you must follow the rules. But even if you set a lot of detailed rules, you can't judge all incidents during an actual sport just with rules. That where Sportmanship becomes important."

I think there should be a contract signed by each driver to obey the Sportsmanship code. And if violated should result in warnings, suspensions and bans. At the moment some people just shrug off Sportsmanship by saying, "well, it's not against the rules" while ruining the game for others.

In short, we need PD to enforce what they preach.

 

[fastone371]

I'd let them pass (if I can't run away from them with better pace) and race close from behind making clean preasure.

It's a very funny way to race and a challenge. If you don't mind to win or not it's even better. But keeping it 100% clean.

Trying to keep the position ahead dirty racers has no point to me...

Sometimes even letting a dirty driver through isn't enough to avoid penalties, they feel they must tap you and then the wall giving you a penalty in the process. The way I race now if I'm not way faster than the car ahead instead of attempting a pass I will follow with the hope they make a mistake so I can get by. Even with that you still need to be extremely cautious the first few corners because it can be pretty easy for 1 or 2 cars who decide they want to win the race L1T1 and hand out a bunch of penalties to innocent drivers, unfortunately it takes a lot of fun out of Sport Mode. I can race in lobbies and leagues with none of these problems.

 

[MordFustang88]

I re-watched the 2 "etiquette" videos. And I actually think it's on the right path. But the problem is not everyone retains the info. And not everyone understands rules and etiquette are separate.

As the video states (1:15) : "One element of sports is you must follow the rules. But even if you set a lot of detailed rules, you can't judge all incidents during an actual sport just with rules. That where Sportmanship becomes important."

I think there should be a contract signed by each driver to obey the Sportsmanship code. And if violated should result in warnings, suspensions and bans. At the moment some people just shrug off Sportsmanship by saying, "well, it's not against the rules" while ruining the game for others.

In short, we need PD to enforce what they preach.

I think that a simple "Give back the position" to the person you rammed or pushed wide, would be enough. Give it a 10 second buffer. After 10 seconds, 5 second penalty. And after every 5 second, more 5 second penalties. For a total of 35 seconds of not giving back the position - kick.
But first, the game must recognize "racing incidents" as well. IMO, sometimes racing incidents are recognized; take a look at some streamers when there is a racing incident and no one gets the penalty. I know my racing incidents are recognized, the ones in my favour and the ones in the favour of the other driver, but still, they are racing incidents

Therefore, you cannot enforce sportsmanship if you dont enforce a rule. Maybe they should try it with this, and try to code in the severity of the impact. Slight touch or slightly pushed wide, no instant penalty, just give back the position. Full send ramming, instant penalty + give back the position.

 

[Andrej S]

@Andrej S Please take this in the spirit of my trying to help. Of course in the first one the huge lunge by the P4 car was not your fault. What others are trying to explain is that before that had happened there had been contact with the P1 car who subsequently went off track, hence the penalty. Not your fault but the lunge was incidental to the penalty. However.... on the approach to the T1 braking zone you took the decision to go three wide. That is a massively risky move to make, particularly considering it's the first lap. When you are three wide you are relying on the cooperation of two other drivers who you know nothing about to get through the corner cleanly without contact. I'd advise it's just not worth the risk. Pick either the outside 'racing' line or cover the inside line and follow the chosen car in front. If you'd done that the P4 lunger would have gone straight through the middle.
Of course hindsight is everything but it's something to think about when racing against unknown drivers, and what is and isn't worth the risk. Three wide certainly is very risky. "You can't win the race at the first corner but you can lose it" - somebody possibly said

For the second one you do make contact with the diver bomber at 3/4 seconds. That's pretty clear. Why it took so long to register isn't clear but the penalty system, as flawed as it may be, doesn't give penalties to someone going off track the way you did. Again, not your fault but the penalty wasn't triggered for the reason you think it was.

I hope that helps, I'm just trying to be constructive so you find racing a little less frustrating 👍

Thank you for being polite and in the second one to me it just looks like lag if it is lile you say contact because there is no sound of contact.

Although this one is very clear to all of us here (GTS penalty system connoisseurs), I understand why it must have been confusing for you. You're obviously new to GTS and its "awesome" penalty system. You couldn't have known what it was for. Most likely because it took the game 13 freaking seconds to give you a penalty for it. That's gotta be a record. Must be an improvement implemented with the latest update.

Yes I am new got the game 2 weeks ago so dont know the penalty system fully but if I got a penalty for "pushing him off" then why didn't he get one after he pushed me off the track? That is a bigger question.

 

[djidane57]

thank god i made an alt account , otherwise i would have thrown the PS4 out of the window numerous times

standing start for race C is a ****ing disaster EVERY SINGLE TIME : you get punted from pole , you go through the runaway but now you have dirty tires so you get more dive bombs at the next corner and before you know it you go from 1st to last with a 5sec penalty for good measure

 

[Leovizzz]

Hey everyone, I'm reposting something I've sent on the daily racing thread, this discussion seems to be more appropriate for that:

Hi guys, I'm new here though I've been following the discussions for a while.

Question: is it just with me or the SR system has been insanely punitive in the last couple of weeks? It seems that EVERY contact takes 1 or 2 SR points down, and even the slightest touch activate the orange tag. On the other hand, clean races are giving me 4-6 points on C races and 1-2 points on A and B. As a matter of comparison, last time I had to grind back SR, I was getting 7-9 points for A-B and 14-15 for C.

Today I had a clean B race that gave me 2 points. In the next one, someone contacted me and got off the track, I've got a sadly usual 5 second penalty and -20 SR.

I'm thinking of giving up on this system, I'll just try to get fun races among dirty drivers, as hard as it looks like.​

 

[oneloops]

Thank you for being polite and in the second one to me it just looks like lag if it is lile you say contact because there is no sound of contact.


Yes I am new got the game 2 weeks ago so dont know the penalty system fully but if I got a penalty for "pushing him off" then why didn't he get one after he pushed me off the track? That is a bigger question.

In the second one, that "lag-effect" is the collision, is very clear as Famine explained before.

At the end of the second video, we don't see if some seconds after he will get his penalty... If not, it's because all the contacts in that sequence are considerated as one only incident so you get the penalty for your first action. The secret is to avoid all contacts, even the small ones, let more margin to others and be careful of others movements and mistakes.

You have to undestand the system as a consequence system, not as a justice system.

Even if it's not your fault, any contact has consequences in real racing (often worse consequences for the innocent), in GTS every contact can have consequences for one part or the other, don't expect justice, only consequences, like in real racing.

 

[RussRobit]

So the main problem is determining fault. So, for now, forget about fault. Just give everyone who has contact a .5 sec penalty and -5 Sr. Drivers who have frequent contact will collect enough -sr that you'll never see them again. Then give huge clean race bonus. Eventually dirt races dirt and clean races clean.

 

[DS87]

Fat steamy load.

Get an sr down from people hitting you or make microscopic contact with another car and hello 20 second penalty.

I go out of my way to be clean and 6 c races in a row 20 second penalty at the end.

Just now the whole dame race nothing no penalty and one sr pop up
race ends and 20 seconds

I don't even think i hit the guy.

WTF?!

 

[DS87]

So i stayed in the back and i got a half a second penalty for a goof up went too wide and the end of the race still 20 damn seconds.

Gargantuan pile of:censored:. 2 years and i never had a problem with the system. What did they do?

 

[BaareCZ]

Fat steamy load.

Get an sr down from people hitting you or make microscopic contact with another car and hello 20 second penalty.

I go out of my way to be clean and 6 c races in a row 20 second penalty at the end.

Just now the whole dame race nothing no penalty and one sr pop up
race ends and 20 seconds

I don't even think i hit the guy.

WTF?!

So i stayed in the back and i got a half a second penalty for a goof up went too wide and the end of the race still 20 damn seconds.

Gargantuan pile of:censored:. 2 years and i never had a problem with the system. What did they do?

Read the race description. Mandatory Tires at Pit Stop: Racing: Hard. So if you do the whole race on medium tyres, that's what the 20 second penalty at the end is for.

EDIT:
But it also says Mandatory Stop: None. So, does the rule only apply when you pit? Or do you get the penalty even if you don't pit and do the whole race on mediums? I haven't done this race so don't know if a no-stopper is even possible.

 

[KepleroGT]

I think that a simple "Give back the position" to the person you rammed or pushed wide, would be enough. Give it a 10 second buffer. After 10 seconds, 5 second penalty. And after every 5 second, more 5 second penalties. For a total of 35 seconds of not giving back the position - kick.
But first, the game must recognize "racing incidents" as well. IMO, sometimes racing incidents are recognized; take a look at some streamers when there is a racing incident and no one gets the penalty. I know my racing incidents are recognized, the ones in my favour and the ones in the favour of the other driver, but still, they are racing incidents

Therefore, you cannot enforce sportsmanship if you dont enforce a rule. Maybe they should try it with this, and try to code in the severity of the impact. Slight touch or slightly pushed wide, no instant penalty, just give back the position. Full send ramming, instant penalty + give back the position.

What would happen if I get rammed in the back really hard in T1 and I hit someone else because of it? Considering the way that the game determines who's at fault in this scenario, that would lead to either DSQ or my race ruined even more than now.

Read the race description. Mandatory Tires at Pit Stop: Racing: Hard. So if you do the whole race on medium tyres, that's what the 20 second penalty at the end is for.

IMO they should put this right in your face when you look at the settings for a race. Instead it's at the bottom of the race details.

 

[KaiB]

Yes i agree to that they should list in main screen in a more visible way wich are the mandatory tires, people can easly miss the message like it´s at the moment, even top drivers did miss it and take penaltys for that.

Anyway there are detailed info in race details and the thing at moment is that people must read the details and after that it´s harder to miss the requirements since will be harder to forget and you´ll probably double check before the race.

 

[watto79]

Read the race description. Mandatory Tires at Pit Stop: Racing: Hard. So if you do the whole race on medium tyres, that's what the 20 second penalty at the end is for.

EDIT:
But it also says Mandatory Stop: None. So, does the rule only apply when you pit? Or do you get the penalty even if you don't pit and do the whole race on mediums? I haven't done this race so don't know if a no-stopper is even possible.

It's not worded brilliantly but you have to use hard tyres at some point in the race. No stopping on hard tyres would fit that requirement. You can also start the race with hards on the rear and mediums on the front (or vice versa) and that also fulfills the requirement.

 

[MordFustang88]

What would happen if I get rammed in the back really hard in T1 and I hit someone else because of it? Considering the way that the game determines who's at fault in this scenario, that would lead to either DSQ or my race ruined even more than now.

In my experience, if i got hit and hit someone else, i wouldnt get any penalty. The game would recognize i wasnt at fault and the penalty would go to the guy that hit me.
But if they would enforce damage (Race A - no damage; Race B - light damage; Race C - heavy damage; FIA - Heavy Damage), everybody would be more cautious.
Racing without damage or consequences makes things go the wrong way.

 

[djidane57]

god dammit 3 times in a row i lost a race C on the last lap , i overtake at T1 on the inside , of course he turns into me and OF COURSE I GET 4 SEC PENALTY , EVERY TIME

 

[BaareCZ]

god dammit 3 times in a row i lost a race C on the last lap , i overtake at T1 on the inside , of course he turns into me and OF COURSE I GET 4 SEC PENALTY , EVERY TIME

Yep, works like a charm every time. It's a great way to get rid of your competition. Turn in - run off - enjoy your penalty, mate. In T1 at Barcelona you won't even lose time.

 

[Mc_Yavel]

I re-watched the 2 "etiquette" videos. And I actually think it's on the right path. But the problem is not everyone retains the info. And not everyone understands rules and etiquette are separate.

As the video states (1:15) : "One element of sports is you must follow the rules. But even if you set a lot of detailed rules, you can't judge all incidents during an actual sport just with rules. That where Sportmanship becomes important."

I think there should be a contract signed by each driver to obey the Sportsmanship code. And if violated should result in warnings, suspensions and bans. At the moment some people just shrug off Sportsmanship by saying, "well, it's not against the rules" while ruining the game for others.

In short, we need PD to enforce what they preach.

I would like PD to use this video with the report system (who does nothing at the moment).

Let say you have one report in a race it start the count, after 5 races with a report you have to watch the video before signing in a Daily Race for the entire day.

10 race with a report within a week is a ban for the week.

 

[DS87]

I finally figured out the problem in race c.

That damn sausage before heading onto pit straight.

Do not drop a wheel there. I figured it's one wheel what's the big deal? No penalty in race so it must be okay.

Nope that's how i got my 20 second penalty.

 

[watto79]

I finally figured out the problem in race c.

That damn sausage before heading onto pit straight.

Do not drop a wheel there. I figured it's one wheel what's the big deal? No penalty in race so it must be okay.

Nope that's how i got my 20 second penalty.

You only get a 20 second penalty for not using the mandatory tyre. There is no track limit penalty that results in 20 seconds.

 

[fastone371]

I finally figured out the problem in race c.

That damn sausage before heading onto pit straight.

Do not drop a wheel there. I figured it's one wheel what's the big deal? No penalty in race so it must be okay.

Nope that's how i got my 20 second penalty.

Is anyone home?????

 

[Andrej S]

Aaaand heres another one from a few minutes ago again I get a 5 second penalty for a guy that tried and successfully accomplished taking me out just no words, I'm not even mad just very disappointed.