Perfect Shifting?

[KSaiyu]

Don't know if this has already been answered else where, but this seemed like the right forum to post it in.....Does GT4 allow you to chose between automatic and manual, right before racing, like it does in arcade ???....I always hate to go into the options in GT3 and change it manually....because in some races I like to do manual...but sometimes I like to switch to automatic...to change things up a bit

Unfortunately there's no option before a race, you have to go into the options, although you can do this through the pre-race screen.

 

[Jetboy.]

I don't mean to agravate anyone here, but just merely stir the pot.

Let us take my example in: License Test S8 in GT3. ( the GT-One at Monaco-Azure)

With a manual transmission, I acheived a total lap time of 1'28.655. Part of this was because I held it in 2nd-3rd around tighter bends.

Now let's take the same test in an auto transmission: 1'32.489. With barely any control of gear selection, one must really play with the throttle, especially around the downhill 180* turn. Many times, around tighter turns, the Computer Auto would downshift to first gear (based on speeds below 41mph). Then when throttle was applied, the rear would kick out, inducing an uncontrollable slide straight into the wall. Crash, test failed.

Point is, a manual transmission can control excessive power in tight situations, which is why I use it only.

 

[79vettfan]

hey I use m/t and it dose work a lot better

 

[G.T]

In rallying in GT4P, in manual transmission it was alot easier to take corners if you don't rev the engine so much; use higher gears. It gives you better traction because not so much power is going through the wheels.

 

[Greyout]

About the long shift from first to second. That's to do with engine inertia and engine braking.

If you rev a car harder, there will be more engine braking relative to inertia (so the engine will slow down quicker). Now, shifting from first to second requires the biggest drop in engine speed, so it will take the longest as the engine slows down enough to engage the next gear cleanly.

If you summon more engine braking, the shift time will be shorter because the engine will slow down quicker.

You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about

 

[cubits]

It's all about inertia. The quicker everything matches revs, the quicker you can shift. You can blip for a downshift to rev match, but the only thing you can do for an upshift is wait...

That is why if you force the shift in a real car, you get a squeal from the tyres, and a noticeable amount of shunt. You're effectively pulling the engine revs down with the gearbox. Nasty way to shift.

Now in GT4 it may be different, but thats the closest realistic reason.

A lighter flywheel will reduce shift times, as will a close ratio gearbox.

 

[chameleon2]

You can't rev turbo's because once you reach a certain point, an engine ceases to push air through the engine as efficiently. It's called volumetric efficiency. If the air being pushed through the engine stops accelerating, so does the turbo, and you lose boost, and power.

You shouldn't just keep revving N/A cars either. They suffer the same fate eventually. There is an optimum point to shift, and it isn't the rev limiter. Multiple factors vary this, such as the VE, air/fuel mixture, and other proprietry systems such as vtec.

Don't know what inertia means, is it something like rotation? Thanks anyway for the explanations....but about reving turbo and NA engines, they suffer both from the volumetric efficiency? And turbo suffers more because it's connected with the exhaust gasses and intake air? When air ceases to be push through the engine, is that determined by feeling loss in acceleration? Or looking at the specs at the maximum torque figure?
How do you actually determine the perfect shifting point? It is usually somewhere near the red line, isn't it? (so it might be under it as well)

You can blip for a downshift to rev match, but the only thing you can do for an upshift is wait...

Heel and toe?

 

[Scaff]

It's all about inertia. The quicker everything matches revs, the quicker you can shift. You can blip for a downshift to rev match, but the only thing you can do for an upshift is wait...

That is why if you force the shift in a real car, you get a squeal from the tyres, and a noticeable amount of shunt. You're effectively pulling the engine revs down with the gearbox. Nasty way to shift.

Now in GT4 it may be different, but thats the closest realistic reason.

A lighter flywheel will reduce shift times, as will a close ratio gearbox.

When upshifting you can double de-clutch, it does allow you to blip the throttle to match revs, but requires a good level of skill and is generally not required. Its most common race use inthis day and age ois during endurance races as it lowers the stress levels on the entire drivetrain.

On the flywheel bit, you always have to take into account that while a lighter flywheel does allow the revs to rise rapidly, the reverse is also try. So, while they do allow quicker shifts, if you do not shift quickly enough, then the rapid drop in revs will lose you speed. They can be a bit of a double-edged sword in that regard.

 

[Darts]

Ofcourse a car is quicker in manual. In manual you have more control over the care because in automatic the car doesnt no your next move and there fore in coners manual is alot faster than automatic. When you get GT4 use manual because all the first races are easy anyway and that way you will get used to manual. I just listin to the engines sound for when Im shifting and if im entering a corner quickly and need to slow down I shift down with maybe letting the limiter bounce a few times and then quickly shift up agaian staying in the power zones of the engine at all times.

Have a go with manual and you will see. I promise up to 5 secs faster laps than with auto.

As i said i have raced against a guy who uses manuel, ahs the same game (TOCA driver 2) and is a very good racer, but i always beat him and have better acceleration.

I just like automatic, cause i don't have to concentarte on shifting and can justn race, and make little line movements, wich is hard if your busy shifting. i also seem to be good at setting up an car for automatic, without getting overtseer, or understeer and very high corner speeds and acceleration.

 

[cubits]

Yep, blipping is heel toe (or you can use your right foot to blip if you're left foot braking). You can shift down without the clutch if you get the revs exactly right. Learned how to do that in a suzuki swift of all things. The result is a searingly fast and smooth gearshift.

You have to feel where to shift gears in a car. You want to shift as high up as possible without losing too much acceleration, to put you back in the meat of the torque in the next gear.

Engines such as the toyota vvti and honda vtec are VERY sensitive to this due to their narrow power band and torque dropoff caused by the cam changeover (although newer vtec's are much better than before). In fact, it's nigh on impossible to keep the corolla sportivo (or whatever it's called in the game) in the powerband, which causes its lousy 0-100kmh time.

 

[chameleon2]

About the flywheel: Putting in a lighter flywheel increases you engine braking and revs up faster. But I recall reading or hearing that putting in a lighter flywheel also gives you advantage on uphills, but disadvantages on downhill? It does make sense, I'm just not really sure. Can anyone confirm this?

You can shift down without the clutch if you get the revs exactly right. Learned how to do that in a suzuki swift of all things. The result is a searingly fast and smooth gearshift.

I've read about this before. I tried it in my '92 ford sierra but it seems as if the gears are locked if I try and downshift without using clutch. One some occasions I WAS able to move the gear lever, I suppose that's the moment when the revs matched or something? But I don't understand - how can you match the revs so that you can downshift withouth using clutch? or better yet, how can you match the revs so that I can free the lever out of the gear? I presume it takes an pretty huge amount of skill before being able to do that.

I've been learning heel and toe now for almost 2 years. First tries really went wrong but slowly I got the hang of it. Now for the past 6 months or so I've added double clutching in my personal racing program , I've also gotten the hang of that, now currently I'm perfecting the amount of throttle to blip, but I think I learn slowly? I have two cars at my disposal to practise in, the ford sierra being the easiest, however no tacho is in there so all must be done on feeling. But if I double clutch heel and toe downshift, and get it perfect matching RPM there is no strain in my lever whatsoever. I slides into gear like the gearbox is made from butter. The other one being an audi A4 1.9TDI, but those brakes are real strong, leaving little room for practice / errors performing heel and toe. Double clutching is easier on the other hand, probably cause of all the newer materials used. Huge difference '92 sierra or an '00 A4. Also it's a diesel so it isn't exactly high revving . I ultimately want to get this perfect, so that eventually I can shift as good as GT's clutch

Doesn't anyone agree with me that GT's auto clutch is sooooo much aid (then again it takes away soooo much of the experience) I mean how many people here on this board can control clutch and rpms as well as GT's auto clutch?
How many people here actually double clutch in daily driving?

I'd really like to see some discussion about this...thanks for the knowledge people.

 

[Jetboy.]

My dad tried tp teach me that--shifting without the clutch. I did not like it; for some reason it just felt wrong.

 

[chameleon2]

I just like automatic, cause i don't have to concentarte on shifting and can justn race, and make little line movements, wich is hard if your busy shifting.

If you're a proper manual user you wouldn't be busy thinking about your shift, you'd shift at the appropriate time without even thinking about it. Practise practise practise.

i also seem to be good at setting up an car for automatic, without getting overtseer, or understeer and very high corner speeds and acceleration.

Now this is new to me? Lowering the ride height, adjusting camber, caster, toe, tweaking brake balance LSD etc etc, all the tuning that can be done, its output should not be different between auto trannied cars or manual.

 

[Lethalchem]

How many people here actually double clutch in daily driving?

I'd really like to see some discussion about this...thanks for the knowledge people.

People don't (or shouldn't) double clutch anymore. There's no need for it.

 

[chameleon2]

I know it isn't used anymore. I just wanna save my synchronizer rings on gears
You say there's no need for it. I'd say learn the basics first, before you can move up ahead. How can you properly learn blipping the gas if there's the synchronizer rings that are in your way determining if you were on the perfect amount of revs? It's doable I suppose but when you need to learn it from scratch I suppose it's best to start learning the old basic techniques. You're right that it's not necesary anymore. accept from saving you synchro rings, there's no need, it's slower and is a whole lot more work.....but once I get everything perfect, my shifts and especially downshifts will be just perfect!

If someone thinks it's totally not needed, please elabolerate.....

 

[Lethalchem]

I know it isn't used anymore. I just wanna save my synchronizer rings on gears
You say there's no need for it. I'd say learn the basics first, before you can move up ahead. How can you properly learn blipping the gas if there's the synchronizer rings that are in your way determining if you were on the perfect amount of revs? It's doable I suppose but when you need to learn it from scratch I suppose it's best to start learning the old basic techniques. You're right that it's not necesary anymore. accept from saving you synchro rings, there's no need, it's slower and is a whole lot more work.....but once I get everything perfect, my shifts and especially downshifts will be just perfect!

If someone thinks it's totally not needed, please elabolerate.....

I always put an aftermarket short throw shifter in my cars, and use the screws to adjust the shift stop point. This takes car of the usual synchro damage that occurs from banging gears when racing. If you're talking about shifting during daily driving traffic, then it really doesn't matter how you chose to shift. If you're in a racing environent though, double clutching wouldn't make much sense....especially if you're talking about drag racing.

As for saving wear and tear on your car, if you're racing it hard, you're going to wear out a hell of alot more first, than you are your synchros. Practicing heel-toe makes perfect sense, double clutching doesn't ( in racing applications) IMHO.

 

[Swift]

I always put an aftermarket short throw shifter in my cars, and use the screws to adjust the shift stop point. This takes car of the usual synchro damage that occurs from banging gears when racing. If you're talking about shifting during daily driving traffic, then it really doesn't matter how you chose to shift. If you're in a racing environent though, double clutching wouldn't make much sense....especially if you're talking about drag racing.

As for saving wear and tear on your car, if you're racing it hard, you're going to wear out a hell of alot more first, than you are your synchros. Practicing heel-toe makes perfect sense, double clutching doesn't ( in racing applications) IMHO.

Ok, so when would you heel-toe and NOT double clutch at the same time?

 

[Scaff]

I always put an aftermarket short throw shifter in my cars, and use the screws to adjust the shift stop point. This takes car of the usual synchro damage that occurs from banging gears when racing. If you're talking about shifting during daily driving traffic, then it really doesn't matter how you chose to shift. If you're in a racing environent though, double clutching wouldn't make much sense....especially if you're talking about drag racing.

As for saving wear and tear on your car, if you're racing it hard, you're going to wear out a hell of alot more first, than you are your synchros. Practicing heel-toe makes perfect sense, double clutching doesn't ( in racing applications) IMHO.

In racing applications double clutching does still have applications (aside from historic stuff w/o syncro - LOL), but mainly in endurance racing and only then if you need to preserve the drivetrain. Its use is rare.

On road cars it is not needed at all.

 

[Swift]

In racing applications double clutching does still have applications (aside from historic stuff w/o syncro - LOL), but mainly in endurance racing and only then if you need to preserve the drivetrain. Its use is rare.

On road cars it is not needed at all.

Not needed, but still fun.

 

[chameleon2]

I always put an aftermarket short throw shifter in my cars, and use the screws to adjust the shift stop point. This takes car of the usual synchro damage that occurs from banging gears when racing.

Why is that? You adjust where it hits the gear? So that you know when it grabs or something?

If you're talking about shifting during daily driving traffic, then it really doesn't matter how you chose to shift.

OK makes sense, the synchros are well designed to take a blow or two. So in fact what I should need to work on is decreasing the amount of slip as much as possible? I still find it hard to determine the perfect amount of throtle while heel en toe downshifting when not double clutching. Perhaps a tacho would help a bit to see my errors? I thought it made sense that heel en toe goes with double clutching, as double clutching really makes it feel go all smooth. (everything is synchrod)

If you're in a racing environent though, double clutching wouldn't make much sense....especially if you're talking about drag racing.

As for saving wear and tear on your car, if you're racing it hard, you're going to wear out a hell of alot more first, than you are your synchros. Practicing heel-toe makes perfect sense, double clutching doesn't ( in racing applications) IMHO.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. No more double clutching for me. It caused me to grind the gears a few times as well, so it's nothing but disadventage I guess. I saw Gan san doing it one time while racing the porsche 996 against the Nismo Skyline and it still strucks my mind why he did that. I can think of no other explanation than that he's used doing it, he did raced cars that needed double clutching I think?.

 

[Jetboy.]

I saw Gan san doing it one time while racing the porsche 996 against the Nismo Skyline and it still strucks my mind why he did that. I can think of no other explanation than that he's used doing it, he did raced cars that needed double clutching I think?.

Makes sense. It was (or is) a habbit he was (is) inclined to do. Maybe his daily driver is like that.

 

[Lethalchem]

Ok, so when would you heel-toe and NOT double clutch at the same time?

Uhmmm...all the time. Unless we've got our definitions crossed, heel-toe shifting has nothing to do with double clutching. Perhaps we're not on the same page concerning what double clutcing is?

In racing applications double clutching does still have applications (aside from historic stuff w/o syncro - LOL), but mainly in endurance racing and only then if you need to preserve the drivetrain. Its use is rare.

On road cars it is not needed at all.

I don't know if it's used as you describe or not, but if so, I can see why. If you're in an endurance race, you're not so concerned about losing a second here or there on a slow shift. You're more concerned about mechanical wear. So I guess in those instances where time is not of the essence, then it could still be useful. In th eracing I do, I can't afford to waste time doing it.

 

[Lethalchem]

Why is that? You adjust where it hits the gear? So that you know when it grabs or something?

It stops you from shoving the gear further than you need to. Damage because of this can be seen when you get in a car and it grinds while trying to get it in gear even though you're shifting correctly. Usually it occurs going from first to second (in the car's I've noticed it in).

OK makes sense, the synchros are well designed to take a blow or two. So in fact what I should need to work on is decreasing the amount of slip as much as possible?

The amount of slip? I'm not sure what you mean by that. The only time I slip a clutch is when launching at the drags or at the begining of an autocross run. Do you mean rev-matching?

I still find it hard to determine the perfect amount of throtle while heel en toe downshifting when not double clutching. Perhaps a tacho would help a bit to see my errors? I thought it made sense that heel en toe goes with double clutching, as double clutching really makes it feel go all smooth. (everything is synchrod)

You don't have a tach?? I can't see doing any kind of performance driving successfully without one.

When hell-toe shifting, you're not having to match the rpms perfectly, you're just blipping it up high enough that the engine isn't going to be dragged down when the clutch is released. This can upset the balance of a car when braking to get set up for a turn.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. No more double clutching for me. It caused me to grind the gears a few times as well, so it's nothing but disadventage I guess. I saw Gan san doing it one time while racing the porsche 996 against the Nismo Skyline and it still strucks my mind why he did that. I can think of no other explanation than that he's used doing it, he did raced cars that needed double clutching I think?.

Heel-toe shifting is a hard technique to learn. I've seen a few videos (which I wish I could find) which showed the feet of race drivers while racing, and you can see perfectly what they're doing. It's definately something that takes practice. I totally suck at it because of my Cobra's pedal placement...or at least that's the excuse I'm using!

If you're just talking about driving your car around town, you don't need to worry about heel-toe OR double clutching.

 

[nightkid86]

People don't (or shouldn't) double clutch anymore. There's no need for it.

In <----- that car I have too. Its kinda fun.

 

[Lethalchem]

In <----- that car I have too. Its kinda fun.

Looks like a fun little ride. WHen it comes to old school stuff, there's all sorts of fun little quirks that modern cars don't have to fool with anymore. Sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's a shame.

 

[Jetboy.]

Interesting ride for NC. Opens some eyes up, I am sure.

 

[nightkid86]

Interesting ride for NC. Opens some eyes up, I am sure.

Yeah, just the other day a mom in a yellow chevy SSR was staring at me. I didn't acknowledge her on acount of her 'retro' 'car'

 

[Swift]

Uhmmm...all the time. Unless we've got our definitions crossed, heel-toe shifting has nothing to do with double clutching. Perhaps we're not on the same page concerning what double clutcing is?

The whole point of heel_toe is to match the revs when downshifting. While it can be done without double clutching, the timing is much easier and smoother with double clutching.

Here's how I do it.

• Press Brake
• Press clutch
• Shift into neutral
• release clutch
• with foot still on brake, blip throttle
• shift into desired gear
• release clutch

Do you take out the extra clutching?

 

[Lethalchem]

The whole point of heel_toe is to match the revs when downshifting. While it can be done without double clutching, the timing is much easier and smoother with double clutching.

Here's how I do it.

• Press Brake
• Press clutch
• Shift into neutral
• release clutch
• with foot still on brake, blip throttle
• shift into desired gear
• release clutch

Do you take out the extra clutching?

Yes. Try doing all that when hauling down from 115mph to 20mph for a sharp left hander. It can be done of course, but you're going to be slowing down much sooner (thereby getting slower laps times) then if you simply do it without double-clutching. Here's how I would change your setup:

• Press TOE on Brake
• Press clutch
• shift into desired gear
• with foot still on brake, swing heel over to blip throttle
• release clutch

 

[Jetboy.]

Yeah, just the other day a mom in a yellow chevy SSR was staring at me. I didn't acknowledge her on acount of her 'retro' 'car'

"Give quarter to no one." 👍